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#61 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 02:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary

What do you do, if mom is having PPH, baby is not breathing and mom is unconscious from loss of blood?
I'll bite on this one;

PPH, nurse baby (real oxytocin is much preferable to pitocin), shepard's purse, and as a last resort (ooowwwww!) tincture of cayanne up the vagina. From what I've read, it is very very rare for a mother to lose enough blood to be really harmful in a short period of time, it's more the slow consistent hemorraging that is a problem, and in that case, we'd have plenty of time for dad to throw my butt in the truck and haul me down to the hospital to see what they could do.

Baby not breathing- parents to talk to baby, rub, if cord is still pulsing to try not to flip out, keep cord attached. If baby isn't breathing for too long, a drop or 2 of cayanne on baby's tongue. If that doesn't work, 911 or throw us all in the truck and head to the hosp, same as what a MW would do, from what I can tell.

If mom was unconsious, then dad would do all this. If mom is unconsious for any length of time (I've passed out a few times before, it's not pleasant, but I am not necessarily worried about it unless it's like a long time or something) then 911, just like a MW would do Knowing my DH he'd yell at me before calling and tell me to wake the heck up. Which might just work

Cara
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#62 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 02:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
I have a pretty clear understanding as to "WHY" women choose them.
And what is that?

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fourlittlebirds, I cant even take the time to comment with everything you posted about, you seem to want to go in circles.
We are both going in circles, because you refuse to address most of my points, while I continue to address yours.

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Since, I have yet to figure out "tags", I'm sure you would be unable to understand my post.
I can understand it just fine. My concern was that others would mistake your words for mine, or vice versa, because you were not marking them clearly.

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I'm a major reader...I have read many many things about the history of birth. You are wrong that history does not have info on this topic. Ancient cultures did indeed have written language. That's why I think going any further discussing the history aspect is silly...because there are TOO MANY references to birth to even explore.
Well, okay, you don't have to discuss history if you don't want, but you are the one who brought it up, and it was only when I responded that you decided it was silly to discuss it.

And actually, I did not say that history does not have info on this topic. Again you are attributing to me a belief that I have not expressed here. I understand that history has much to say on this topic, and that there is also a "prehistory" that we know very little about, but that we can make guesses about based on the few cultures that have existed from that time.

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As I have mentioned before, I require evidence before I can suggest it or support it...and it looks like I wont get any evidence except testimonials. That's not good enough for me.
Then you are likely to find nothing of value to you here, because we don't have statistics to offer you, as we all know by now.

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PPH, can occur in a labor with a funky labor pattern...probably due to a malpositioned baby. It can also occur in a long labor. SOME moms who have many babies are at higher risk too. Some say red heads are more predisposed to PPH...because the cervix has collagen (sp?) in it and red heads have more or less of this...don't have a bit or evidence to support this just info provided from MW's. PPH is in the top 4 reasons for maternal mortality worldwide.
Mm-hm, yes. And perhaps you will now answer the actual question: How exactly would PPH occur in a healthy mother with a normal pregnancy and labor, whose hormonal process was not disturbed?

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I am getting mixed messages from you all, probably reflecting individuals definition of UC. Some of you state you will transport for problems, some of you say you know as much as a MW or dr does and would do the same things they would to remedy a emergent situation...
Then these things need to be clarified, don't they? I'm sorry that it's been confusing to you, but it is probably a lot to sort out for a newcomer.
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#63 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 02:30 PM
 
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Mary,


You say:

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Back to the evidence, you can pick apart anything presented all you want.... until there is evidence/research suggesting that birthing alone IS as SAFE, I cannot support it.
How do you think you got all those studies that support midwife attended births? Well, midwives & mamas had to strike out on their own in direct deviation from how doctors were wanting to deliver babies and JUST DO IT. They had no studies at that time that supported them......they just knew in their hearts what they felt was best for them and did it. And so, over a period of years they did accumulate studies.

My point is that in order for these studies to occur, many many birthing women had to choose to birth with midwives, out of a hospital setting WITHOUT studies that showed them it was safe. And now you have the ability to quote from studies to support your opinion that birthing with midwives outside of the hospital is safe. Do you see the irony of this? Would you have felt back in the 60's that birthing with midwives was unsafe because there were no studies to back it up?

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#64 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 02:46 PM
 
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Unlazying myself for long enough to do a basic search for hemorrhage :

A list of threads with hemorrhage in the title:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...archid=2151611

The most recent one on the UC forum:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=439743

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Originally Posted by myhoneyswife
[...]tincture of cayanne up the vagina. [...] If baby isn't breathing for too long, a drop or 2 of cayanne on baby's tongue.
Going seriously OT here, but... I'm curious where you heard about this? I'd like to read more about it (or if you want to tell me more about it here) because I've never heard of such a thing.

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Baby not breathing- parents to talk to baby, rub, if cord is still pulsing to try not to flip out, keep cord attached.
And turning the baby over to drain, perhaps suctioning mouth to mouth... the gentle resus technique described by Gregory White... and then of course CPR...
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#65 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 02:56 PM
 
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Can I duck in here to talk about "evidence" for one minute? I am young enough to have trained in the era of "evidence based medicine" (EBM) where we attempt to only do those things that have evidence to back them up. In EBM, the gold standard is the randomized controlled double blinded study (RCT) (study subjects are assigned to one group or another randomly, the groups are monitored "controlled" so that you get a relatively similar type of people in both groups, and the results are interpreted by a researcher who doesn't know what group your were in, and the study subjects themselves don't know what group they are in.) This works great for a new medicine, for example, where you can make up 2 identical white pills to give someone, but not so well for behaviors. How on earth would you randomize someone to UC, and expect them not to know it? . With the lack of RCTs to use, we are left with case studies, population studies, and case control studies, all of which have inherent flaws. This doesn't mean they don't provide useful information, but since they aren't randomized, you never know if there isn't something special about the group that made them choose the behavior you are studying. (For example, if only well-educated women breastfeed, and then their babies have higher IQs, it's hard to know if it's from the breastmilk, or from having better educated parents.)

The other thing that I feel is absolutely vital to remember about evidence, is that just being scientific doesn't mean there aren't belief systems attached to that evidence. Why do things get studied in the first place? Who pays for it? Who benefits or is harmed by results? There is no "evidence" that is completely objective. It isn't "science" vs. "belief", science is just another type of belief.

I do not suggest that we need to ignore what evidence we have, but an individual will always need to make his/her own decision also taking into account their beliefs, values, background, relationships, fears, etc., etc., etc. Just because someone does something that seems to go against "evidence" doesn't automatically mean they are making a bad decision. I encounter this every day in my family practice. Sometimes, I have great evidence based reasons for wanting to offer a certain treatment, but my patient has even better life based reasons for declining it, or doing something else.

Even if the evidence were ever to come to light that intentional UC isn't as "safe" as another type of birth, there may well be highly intelligent people who continue to choose that type of birth for their own reasons. Having no such evidence at this point (or in all likelihood, such evidence may never be availalbe) women will continue to make their decisions based on evaluating what evidence there is and taking into account the many other areas of their lives that are impacted by birthing choice.

"Evidence" is a favorite topic of mine, but I'll hop off my soapbox now and y'all can return to your regularly scheduled discussion!
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#66 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 03:03 PM
 
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Cara said"I'll bite on this one;

PPH, nurse baby (real oxytocin is much preferable to pitocin), shepard's purse, and as a last resort (ooowwwww!) tincture of cayanne up the vagina. From what I've read, it is very very rare for a mother to lose enough blood to be really harmful in a short period of time, it's more the slow consistent hemorrhaging that is a problem, and in that case, we'd have plenty of time for dad to throw my butt in the truck and haul me down to the hospital to see what they could do.

Baby not breathing- parents to talk to baby, rub, if cord is still pulsing to try not to flip out, keep cord attached. If baby isn't breathing for too long, a drop or 2 of cayanne on baby's tongue. If that doesn't work, 911 or throw us all in the truck and head to the hosp, same as what a MW would do, from what I can tell.

If mom was unconscious, then dad would do all this. If mom is unconscious for any length of time (I've passed out a few times before, it's not pleasant, but I am not necessarily worried about it unless it's like a long time or something) then 911, just like a MW would do Knowing my DH he'd yell at me before calling and tell me to wake the heck up. Which might just work"

*Cara, you have good ideas but I'm referring to if mom had PPH AND baby was not breathing...what would you do...daddy has allot to cope with. I have seen this, although rare...it is a possibility. Mom lost consciousness from loss of blood in less than 5 minutes from birth and was in the process of delivery the placenta. Baby had a AGAR of 1. Thankfully, someone could work on baby and someone could assist mom. Passing out, and passing out from blood loss are really two different beasts.


Originally Posted by doula Mary
*I have a pretty clear understanding as to "WHY" women choose them.


"And what is that?"

*Some women feel it is safer, some women believe that since they conceived their baby with their hubby/partner alone the continuum of the process is to birth with their partner alone. Some believe that any additional people at birth impacts the mothers ability to birth. Some believe that God wants them to birth this way. Some had bad experiences with first baby in the hospital and want to try something different. Some beleive that having someone else interrupts the mothers ability to follow her birthing instinct. I do think I get it...


"We are both going in circles, because you refuse to address my points, while I continue to address yours."

*Your right, I'm picking and choosing which points I respond to, some aren't worth my time.

Quote:
*I'm a major reader...I have read many many things about the history of birth. You are wrong that history does not have info on this topic. Ancient cultures did indeed have written language. That's why I think going any further discussing the history aspect is silly...because there are TOO MANY references to birth to even explore.


"Well, okay, you don't have to discuss history if you don't want, but you are the one who brought it up, and it was only when I responded that you decided it was silly to discuss it."

*I did bring it up in the context of looking at the safety of birth and you discounted it. Mentioning cultures were patriarchal...yea..like right now too.

Quote:
*As I have mentioned before, I require evidence before I can suggest it or support it...and it looks like I wont get any evidence except testimonials. That's not good enough for me.


"Then you are likely to find nothing of value to you here, because we don't have statistics to offer you, as we all know by now."

*Yep, I figured that out!



*PPH, can occur in a labor with a funky labor pattern...probably due to a malpositioned baby. It can also occur in a long labor. SOME moms who have many babies are at higher risk too. Some say red heads are more predisposed to PPH...because the cervix has collagen (sp?) in it and red heads have more or less of this...don't have a bit or evidence to support this just info provided from MW's. PPH is in the top 4 reasons for maternal mortality worldwide.


"Mm-hm, yes. And perhaps you will now answer my question: How exactly would PPH occur in a healthy mother with a normal pregnancy and labor, whose hormonal process was not disturbed?"

*The above complications can certainly occur in "healthy mothers"...my goodness! A healthy mother can have a baby in a funky position, have a long labor or a tired uterus.


Mary
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#67 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 03:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

Going seriously OT here, but... I'm curious where you heard about this? I'd like to read more about it (or if you want to tell me more about it here) because I've never heard of such a thing.



And turning the baby over to drain, perhaps suctioning mouth to mouth... the gentle resus technique described by Gregory White... and then of course CPR...
Cayanne... lemme see if I can find the site, I just looked it up the other day
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/hemorrhaging.html for the hemorraging

http://members.tripod.com/healingtools/cayemerg.html that one has the no breathing stuff and hemorraging; apparently this can be used for heart attacks also, pretty cool stuff!- I personally don't believe in the new moon stuff on there, but that's just me.

http://www.unhinderedliving.com/respfail.html (baby)

I referenced these in numerous places, didn't just pull it from one site, but I only could find a few of the sites I referenced the other day. Sorry, didn't bookmark any


And turning the baby over to drain, yup, I knew that, just forgot to write it
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#68 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 03:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary

*Cara, you have good ideas but I'm referring to if mom had PPH AND baby was not breathing...what would you do...daddy has allot to cope with. I have seen this, although rare...it is a possibility. Mom lost consciousness from loss of blood in less than 5 minutes from birth and was in the process of delivery the placenta. Baby had a AGAR of 1. Thankfully, someone could work on baby and someone could assist mom. Passing out, and passing out from blood loss are really two different beasts.
Yup, I knew what you meant, that's why I added the bolded part here (and now I'm quoting myself to make everythign even more complicated )

Quote:
PPH, nurse baby (real oxytocin is much preferable to pitocin), shepard's purse, and as a last resort (ooowwwww!) tincture of cayanne up the vagina. From what I've read, it is very very rare for a mother to lose enough blood to be really harmful in a short period of time, it's more the slow consistent hemorrhaging that is a problem, and in that case, we'd have plenty of time for dad to throw my butt in the truck and haul me down to the hospital to see what they could do.

Baby not breathing- parents to talk to baby, rub, if cord is still pulsing to try not to flip out, keep cord attached. If baby isn't breathing for too long, a drop or 2 of cayanne on baby's tongue. If that doesn't work, 911 or throw us all in the truck and head to the hosp, same as what a MW would do, from what I can tell.

If mom was unconscious, then dad would do all this.
If mom is unconscious for any length of time (I've passed out a few times before, it's not pleasant, but I am not necessarily worried about it unless it's like a long time or something) then 911, just like a MW would do Knowing my DH he'd yell at me before calling and tell me to wake the heck up. Which might just work
K, so in that scinerio Baby's born, it's unlikely that mom is going to hemorrage without cord traction and before placenta is delivered, but we'll go ahead and assume she does, so baby's born, mom is talking to nonbreathing baby and ooops, passes out because she's losing blood. Cord is still pulsing, dad knows that baby is getting oxygen from the placenta still because it's pulsing, so he lays baby on his face to drain and sticks some cayanne tincture up mom's vagina, baby has successfully drained, so we know that's not a problem, so dad also does a couple drops on baby's tongue (different bottle I hope, eww!) and baby sputters to a start, still blue around the lips and nose and arms/legs, but breathing on it's own. Mom has now come to and goes to deliver the placenta and nurse now sputtering baby If still hemorraging after placenta is delivered, some dropers of shepard's purse and maybe more cayanne. If placenta is retained, some Angelica root tincture (not shepard's purse) to move things along, but NO cord traction because that can cause big-o problems.

It might help that my husband is very very good in emergencies, both of us are super calm people especially in emergencies, so I'm really not concerned. He could do all this no problem, and unlike a MW, he would only be concerned with baby and my health, not concerned with keeping his MW license. I've read stories about women hemmoraging because the placenta wasn't delivered in the arbitray time that the state had told the MW had to have it delivered, so she reached up there and grabbed it, or did cord traction, and THEN mom hemorraged. In my birth that would never happen. We're willing to wait days for placenta to come out if that's what needs to happen (while watching for signs of infection, of course)


Cara

(and I wanted to add that I *can* spell, I type reports for doctors every day with over 99 percent accuracy, lol, but I just don't have the time to do it correctly on here, please bear with me)
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#69 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 03:20 PM
 
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DoctorJen, PLEASE come to Montana, I want you to be our doctor



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#70 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 03:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mama in the forest
My point is that in order for these studies to occur, many many birthing women had to choose to birth with midwives, out of a hospital setting WITHOUT studies that showed them it was safe.
And a very good point it is.

This reminds me also of something that Robbie Davis-Floyd wrote in Birth as an American Rite of Passage, about the value of fringe "extreme" movements to society, in that they push the perceived boundaries, which then has positive benefits for the mainstream. A good example being the homebirth movement, an awareness of which has illuminated issues in hospital birth: why should doctors attend low-risk birth? Why should the baby be separated from the mother? Why should the birth environment be comforting and nonstressful to the mother? Someone had to step out of the norm in order to see that these questions needed to be asked, because the questions would not occur to them until they saw (either in theory or in experience) how it could be different.

It is the same with the unassisted birth movement, illuminating differences between assisted and unassisted birth so that we can even get to the point where it can occur to us to ask if they are important and see how they might be. And already, there are midwives and doctors whose awareness has expanded to include this. Michel Odent and Sarah Buckley (who supports the choice to UC) are two medical doctors and researchers who have written extensively about the conditions necessary for normal physiological birth to occur, one of the most important being absence of self-consciousness and inhibition, and anything that would stimulate the neocortex. Jan Tritten, Gloria Lemay, and Pamela Hines-Powell (who posts here at MDC,) to name a few "high-profile" midwives, have been inspired and influenced by unassisted birth philosophy. And let's not forget Jeannine Parvati Baker, one of the first to really get it and incorporate it into how she defined herself as a midwife.

One of the reasons I feel so passionate about this (beyond knowing it to have huge benefits) is that I see the effects of it trickling through the more general birth culture. It's not, for me, just about defending a woman's right to give birth in a way that she regards as safest and most edifying, but also about protecting the "culture" of UC birth so that its good points can continue to trickle out.
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#71 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 03:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by myhoneyswife
DoctorJen, PLEASE come to Montana, I want you to be our doctor
If there were an MDC village, doctorjen and pamamidwife would constantly be inundated with requests for them to attend births, they wouldn't get a moment's rest.
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#72 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 03:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
If there were an MDC village, doctorjen and pamamidwife would constantly be inundated with requests for them to attend births, they wouldn't get a moment's rest.
I agree! Pamamidwife is my hero.

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#73 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
A healthy mother can have a baby in a funky position, have a long labor or a tired uterus. A healthy mother can have a baby in a funky position, have a long labor or a tired uterus.
Yes, but notice that I said "normal" as well. Those aren't normal labors.
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#74 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 04:38 PM
 
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Thank you Dr. Jen for your info on "evidence" It was very interesting.

Mary
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#75 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 04:47 PM
 
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*A healthy mother can have a baby in a funky position, has a long labor or a tired uterus.

fourlittlebirds said "Yes, but notice that I said "normal" as well. Those aren't normal labors."

*Well, it depends on how you define normal. A malpostioned baby...can most often be successfully turned in labor...lots of things to try. I'm assuming, if you are at home it is possible for the above to happen. Doesn't necessarily indicate a transfer is needed?! I think asynclitic babies happen all the time in normal labors.

Also, I'm aware of SOME Ucers that have had many children ... they are more at risk for PPH too.
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#76 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 05:10 PM
 
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Doula mary -
What about taking into account that anyone who UCers is aware of the "big risks" and is probably doing whatever they can as far as prevention goes? By comparison to your average pregnant mom, they probably have better nutrition, better education, more self-confidence, more education... lots of people take vitamin K supplementation (in any form) prior to birth and prepare tinctures and herbals ready to treat a PPH at the first sign.

Most of the steps toward prevention are NOT taken in typical midwifery and OBGYN practises. They treat symptomatically, once it has already appeared. Most UCers are well-prepared.

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#77 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 05:12 PM
 
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OK, enough of Doulamary - we all get that you do not support UC, you are not interested in learning from our experiences, and that you get a kick out of having the same argument repeatedly on different forums with UCers (notice you were asked about that and didn't feel a need to reply). We also understand that you are frustrated that you cannot put us all in a nice neat defined box, so you can write us off more easily.

I have some "evidence" I've been thinking about lately - Do you realize that *many* in the natural birthing community are advocating a form of UC? What I am talking about is the info I have read in various midwifery books about the detriment of the midwife showing up at a birth *too soon*. I've read about midwives needing to leave the premises in order for the woman's labor to progress. I've read about midwives showing up too soon, and it causing the woman's labor to slow. Very interesting. I also know that alot of childbirth education classes instruct women to labor at home *as long as possible*, to wait until they think they must go, and then wait a little longer. In fact with the class I'm attending, it is almost viewed as a "success" to have such a quick and easy labor at home that you don't make it to the hospital. It seems to be a known fact that attendants do not aid in the labor process, but instead are an interference. And yet, we are such radicals aren't we for taking that advice?

Dr. Jen, I agree wholeheartedly with your take on evidence.
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#78 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 05:27 PM
 
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I'm too groggy and sick today to type coherently but just had to say this was brilliant:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourlittlebirds
But I think that birth professionals are generally threatened by UC in a much more subtle way -- it calls into question much of what they've been taught. For people whose work is based in Serving Women, it is a very, very hard thing to come to terms with to think that in fact they might have been hurting women in some ways all along. So I think that for many it is a case of being in denial. But many aren't and see that the issues that the unassisted birth movement has brought out are important, and are constantly working to find a balance, to serve women who want their services, without inadvertently harming them in some way.
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#79 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 05:37 PM
 
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Doula mary -
What about taking into account that anyone who UCers is aware of the "big risks" and is probably doing whatever they can as far as prevention goes? By comparison to your average pregnant mom, they probably have better nutrition, better education, more self-confidence, more education... lots of people take vitamin K supplementation (in any form) prior to birth and prepare tinctures and herbals ready to treat a PPH at the first sign.

I totally agree! I have also met some that were NOT prepared. But overall...I think you are probably a very cool bunch of ladies.
2bluefish...not trying argue...very thankful for what I have learned here.

I do think women serving other women is sacred at birth, much wisdom has been shared through the ages of time.
Mary
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#80 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 05:38 PM
 
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I like that quote too. And for some reason it seems to hurt some of their feelings to hear us say "we don't need you there, we don't want you there, and honestly we feel that there is little of value you can do for us." *A midwife for every woman.* Is it possible that there is *not* a midwife for every woman - that some women really don't want or need midwives?
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#81 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 06:08 PM
 
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2bluefishsaid"OK, enough of Doulamary - we all get that you do not support UC, you are not interested in learning from our experiences, and that you get a kick out of having the same argument repeatedly on different forums with UCers (notice you were asked about that and didn't feel a need to reply). We also understand that you are frustrated that you cannot put us all in a nice neat defined box, so you can write us off more easily."

I am interested in your experiences. I "don't get a kick out of having the same agreement" I posted on the Nebraska tribe thread. That's OK isn't? Don't make me out to be a troll please. Also, been a member of another forum for birth professionals for many years and UC has been a recent discussion. I'm certainly not bouncing around UC forums challenging them on their beliefs.

I'm not frustrated at all, and I'm not planning on writing you off...clearly you have misunderstood my intentions deeply.

Ucers. don't hurt my feelings..in the sense that they are saying "they don't want me there during birth". I have plenty of women who DO want me there and a huge "tribe of babies" I have been honored to watch come into the world.

Thanks you for giving me thoughts to ponder.
Mary
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#82 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 06:10 PM
 
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Speaking of preparation, I have to wonder why it is not considered irresponsible for women to not prepare for precipitous (unplanned unassisted) birth? So many tangents we could go off with on this thread...

Jesse,

2bluefish, you just jumped right in here as if you've been here all along, so I didn't think to welcome you as a new person. Welcome to MDC and the UC forum! Glad to have you here.
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#83 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 06:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
Speaking of preparation, I have to wonder why it is not considered irresponsible for women to not prepare for precipitous (unplanned unassisted) birth? So many tangents we could go off with on this thread...
ITA. I personally find the attitude of, "my [insert care provider here] will take care of everything no matter what so I don't have to prepare" to be INCREDIBLY irresponsible.

But that is a topic for another thread.

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#84 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 06:15 PM
 
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Jesse,
Great point. I think ALL pregnant women should be prepared for such an event. If you want to refer to my "faulty" abstracts (the first one) posted earlier. Unplanned, unattended homebirths had the worst infant mortality.
Mary
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#85 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 06:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bluefish
*A midwife for every woman.* Is it possible that there is *not* a midwife for every woman - that some women really don't want or need midwives?
Here's my take on that:

http://fourlittlebirds.blogsome.com/...ssisted-birth/
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#86 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OP here

Ok, I think it's been established that UC statistics aren't really out there, but can someone steer me in the way of rates of injuries in hospitals? I know there's injuries that occur due to interference by OBs.

Whew what a debate this started! LOL
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#87 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 07:08 PM
 
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Thanks for the welcome! I definately feel every parent needs training in Emergency Childbirth. I like what you wrote too 4littlebirds.

I have a midwife friend who UCs, who is hands off, who is just about the best midwife you could have I think - but still I can see that having an attendant interfered with my first labor and postpartum bonding period. I believe that attendance to my labor interfered with its progress - and even though second stage was just lovely and not interefered with at all - once the euphoria wore off, I was too exhausted to fully enjoy the post partum stuff I was looking forward too. I barely glanced at the placenta, I had little interest in observing (much less particpating in) checking and dressing my baby, and definately had trouble getting bfing started. The conclusion I have come too is that it is best for *me* to have no attendant present during labor, and as long as the attendant is completely trusted and completely hands off, then her presence at second stage can be helpful (an extra set of hands, perhaps a "seatbelt"). That is what we are going for with this coming birth, though the logistics are tricky, and we may end up completely DIY on second stage, and we are fine with that. We are having a UP. (So I guess that's a little intro to me.)
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#88 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 07:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doula mary
Jesse,
Great point.
I'm not Jesse, but thanks anyway.
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#89 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 08:01 PM
 
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"OP here

Ok, I think it's been established that UC statistics aren't really out there, but can someone steer me in the way of rates of injuries in hospitals? I know there's injuries that occur due to interference by OBs.

Whew what a debate this started! LOL"

*You know, I think it is important to look at OB's as individuals some have high intervention rates and some do not. Dr. Jen is a family physician who assists at births...I'm sure her intervention rates are quite different than others.

That said, looking at countries that have a Midwife model of care, they have superior outcomes vs. US...since the majority of US births are with a OB and in a hospital, one can conclude that interventions DO lead to higher infant and maternal mortality rates.

"I'm not Jesse, but thanks anyway". ...so sorry, I saw Jesse in your post..perhaps you were referring to someone..so sorry!
...but GOOD point anyway.
Mary
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#90 of 215 Old 04-27-2006, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doula mary
"OP here

Ok, I think it's been established that UC statistics aren't really out there, but can someone steer me in the way of rates of injuries in hospitals? I know there's injuries that occur due to interference by OBs.

Whew what a debate this started! LOL"

*You know, I think it is important to look at OB's as individuals some have high intervention rates and some do not. Dr. Jen is a family physician who assists at births...I'm sure her intervention rates are quite different than others.

That said, looking at countries that have a Midwife model of care, they have superior outcomes vs. US...since the majority of US births are with a OB and in a hospital, one can conclude that interventions DO lead to higher infant and maternal mortality rates.

"I'm not Jesse, but thanks anyway". ...so sorry, I saw Jesse in your post..perhaps you were referring to someone..so sorry!
...but GOOD point anyway.
Mary
Statistics anyone?
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