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#121 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 06:41 PM
 
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#122 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 06:44 PM
 
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mama in the forest said"
Thanks for such an interesting statistic....not sure what it has to do with me personally. As a woman with 20 years of not only GIVING birth but seeing others birth too, I am quite aware of what herbs to have on hand and methods of dealing with PPH.

Mary.....fear based thinking is not really a part of unassisted childbirth. I realize this thread began as a subject about statistics, but clearly we've all deviated from the original topic. Perhaps your statistics and warnings would be more appropriate for a more medically based mindset category??

I'm leaving this particular thread. My hope for joining this unassisted childbirth category is to find support, love, friendship, and the sharing of unassisted birth experiences.....if I wanted a pregnancy with medical advice I would hire myself a midwife"

Not trying to upset you!

You stated that parity did not impact PPH, and there is very much out there that shows that indeed it does. Clearly since *most* deaths occur in third world countries, there are many factors that influence it, medical intervention NOT being a reason.... I'm glad you are familiar with appropriate herbs to assist you. Including: Blue Cohosh, Cotton Root Bark, Trillum, Witch Hazel, Ladies Mantel, and Yarrow.

Many of you on this thread have stated you KNOW that the risks are and how to handle them. Denying risks for uterine atony is NOT being prepared.
Respectfully,
Mary
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#123 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 06:45 PM
 
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oh, and regarding multips with PPH:

if these studies are being done with women who are NOT experiencing a natural, spontaneous third stage, then YES, you'll see higher rates of PPH is nearly everyone.

natural, physiological uninterfered with third stage results in FEWER pphs than one that is managed.
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#124 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 06:56 PM
 
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Yea...I know I have ALREADY explained... what I wrote pages ago about how studies were done was stupid. Of course that is important! I don't think we can completely ignore the abstracts either, as Dr. Jen pointed out.

Regarding parity and PPH, I respectfully disagree. But that's OK...I would think being mindful of this would be important. I knew too when I posted that, that someone would argue you that it's because that stage is "managed".

Read up on what countries have the highest PPH rates....I highly DOUBT this stages were managed (or mismanaged) at all. AND yes, I know they are poverty ridden and malnourished..which INDEED plays a role. Still think in being prepared for a UC...everyone, particularly women who have had many children should be ready to handle a PPH.

Mary
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#125 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 07:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doula mary
Still think in being prepared for a UC...everyone, particularly women who have had many children should be ready to handle a PPH.
I think it would be irresponsible to not be prepared for such a possibility.

Tana, wife to Steve (5/02), mom to Ben (7/03), Joey (10/06) and Caroline (9/09)
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#126 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 07:18 PM
 
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well, i'm sure the women here appreciate your teachings, mary.

gah.
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#127 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 07:33 PM
 
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gah???

Does that mean I have worn out my welcome?

Too bad...cause I've been learning. More open to UC than ever...but don't like disrespect.
Mary
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#128 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 07:43 PM
 
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Honestly it does seem that you're pushing the statistics still to show that UC isn't safe, not so much with the original stats that you showed at first, but now with the grand multiparous issue and PPH. I'm pretty sure we've all stated that we do think it's important to be informed about what to do in a PPH situation, so it's not like we haven't thought about it before

You probably don't mean it to come across this way, but it is kinda like you're sticking around here to inform all us uneducated and untrained UCers about what to be prepared for. At least that's how it's coming across to me.

But on the net it's hard to get true intentions across, even with abundant use of smilies

Cara
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#129 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 07:54 PM
 
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I swear to GOD/ goddess..I'm not trying to freak people out!

I have refrained from posting detailed stats on parity, it seems to be a bit of double edge sword here....you say you are prepared and educated then get annoyed with info...like the parity/PPH issue. Mama in the forest said parity was not a risk factor..something I disagreed with and am willing to support. Sorry but it is a potential at birth....but there are risks that increase possibility and I think one would want to know. However, I did share also..herbal treatments that are effective to help.

Well, since I DO KNOW Pageta...I think she could assure you I'm not a wack. Tana, not trying to put you on the spot but feel very very misunderstood here.
Mary
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#130 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 09:31 PM
 
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I think the issue is this, Mary:

You assume that these women are uneducated and taking huge risks. They feel differently. Hell, I feel differently.

As a practicing midwife, I am constantly having to unlearn nearly everything I was taught in midwifery school. Why? Because when we completely understand the physiological processes of labor and birth - the fine delicate hormonal balance that is necessary for the survival of the species - we realize that what we are taught as birth attendants is not only inaccurate but can sometimes be detrimental to a baby's or mother's health.

So, I take offense to your waltzing in to this forum for UC birthers and assuming that because you have outdated "evidence" and "studies" (most of which do not take into consideration the fine balance of normal physiological birth - because, really, how normal can birth be in today's hospital or homebirth environments?) to "show" these women what they "need" to know.

If you're really wanting to learn, I suggest you sit back and READ. In addition, pick up a Sarah Buckley book or one by Michel Odent. So many birth attendants talk about "knowing" the physiology of birth, but so few really GET IT to the point where they are willing to acknowledge how they might be the biggest intervention of all in birth.

These women here - and many other UCers like them - have great gifts to teach us involved in birth.

If you'd like to discuss the risks of PPH in relation to parity, by all means, let's go for it. But, let's do it in the forum it belongs in, not in the forum that is meant for SUPPORT and INFORMATION for UCers.

I admit that I did'nt handle my responses diplomatically or as well-versed or eloquated as others. However, it seems like every so often, this forum goes through yet another well-meaning birth worker who thinks they have so much to "teach" these women. The irony is that it is US - you and me - that need to be taught.
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#131 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 10:02 PM
 
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"I think the issue is this, Mary:

You assume that these women are uneducated and taking huge risks. They feel differently. Hell, I feel differently."

*I'm not assuming anything, but when I see posts that do seem inaccurate I do get concerned.

"As a practicing midwife, I am constantly having to unlearn nearly everything I was taught in midwifery school. Why? Because when we completely understand the physiological processes of labor and birth - the fine delicate hormonal balance that is necessary for the survival of the species - we realize that what we are taught as birth attendants is not only inaccurate but can sometimes be detrimental to a baby's or mother's health."

*You don't know me or my experience. What is YOUR training? Where did you go to school, how many birth have you done? I'm sorry you feel my evidence is outdated..certainly the info. on planned and unplanned births has "some" merit..but how do you measure the safety of a UC as Dr. Jen pointed out. The info available on PPH and maternal deaths is too numerous and is extemely updated...you dont know what my references are. I would be happy to share them

"So, I take offense to your waltzing in to this forum for UC birthers and assuming that because you have outdated "evidence" and "studies" (most of which do not take into consideration the fine balance of normal physiological birth - because, really, how normal can birth be in today's hospital or homebirth environments?) to "show" these women what they "need" to know."

*I'm not "waltzing in anywhere", last time I checked this was a public forum.

"If you're really wanting to learn, I suggest you sit back and READ. In addition, pick up a Sarah Buckley book or one by Michel Odent. So many birth attendants talk about "knowing" the physiology of birth, but so few really GET IT to the point where they are willing to acknowledge how they might be the biggest intervention of all in birth."

*I think birth attendants are perfectly appropriate for some women. Some women might need to be alone but I refuse to negate the importance of a woman supporting another women during labor and birth. To me it is sacred and primal. We have lost this in modern birthing...it is a gift.

"These women here - and many other UCers like them - have great gifts to teach us involved in birth".

*I'm sure they do...but do not down play what "I" have to offer too.

"If you'd like to discuss the risks of PPH in relation to parity, by all means, let's go for it. But, let's do it in the forum it belongs in, not in the forum that is meant for SUPPORT and INFORMATION for UCers".

*Why not? Women here say they have the skills and knowledge equal to a dr. or midwife then later I read posts that clearly don't demonstrate this. Isn't OK to be open about birth issue that may impact your birth? Information is exactly what I have tried to provide...especially regarding herbs for PPH

"I admit that I didn't handle my responses diplomatically or as well-versed or eloquated as others. However, it seems like every so often, this forum goes through yet another well-meaning birth worker who thinks they have so much to "teach" these women. The irony is that it is US - you and me - that need to be taught."

*I don't think I have anything to teach anybody here, I'm here to learn. I have to say that my welcome has not been very warm.

I'm involved on other topics on Mothering.commune, and participate in forums for breastfeeding and birth professionals. Not had a problem...My experience on the UC forum has come in second for the most defensive...the first experience on a mainstream parents forum where there were fanatical formula feeders.. weird.

Mary
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#132 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 10:31 PM
 
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you just don't get it. really, you don't. I'm sorry you don't and I am sorry that this forum has been overrun by people who think they are experts in women's bodies.

I will gladly discuss any topic re: birth on any other forum here with you, Mary. Just not on this one.
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#133 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 10:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doula mary
*Why not? Women here say they have the skills and knowledge equal to a dr. or midwife then later I read posts that clearly don't demonstrate this. Isn't OK to be open about birth issue that may impact your birth? Information is exactly what I have tried to provide...especially regarding herbs for PPH
Mary
No, we don't say we have skills and knowledge equal to doctors or midwives; we have more (so TOTALLY kidding).

But that has been clarified quite a few times in this thread, we DO NOT think that we have skills and knowledgable to doctors and midwives, and we do not hessitate to ask their openion on things if we think it's necessary. Heck, I just posted a question in the midwife fourm a couple weeks ago because I had questions about PKU and wasn't finding what I needed on the net, I also asked a student midwife friend who in turn asked her midwife.

No one has even said that they didn't think they should be prepared for PPH, we have all agreed that it is a possability in any birth. But, if I have had 8 children and still think that my risk for PPH isn't any more than average, that's up to me. Should I still prepare for PPH? Yes. Should I let fear of that dictate how my birth goes? Absolutely not.

We're not against you, I bet most of us here like midwives and doulas for the most part, but if we wanted to be 'educated on the risks' through being lectured at then we'd be going to normal childbirth classes, normal prenatal appointments, to let midwives, doctors, and educators lecture us, not coming to a UC support board.

Cara
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#134 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 10:52 PM
 
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I think the frustration is Doulamary that we have so many outlets to hear your point of view - we can head over to forums for birth professionals or to other fourms on MDC and get this point of view. We would like a little safe haven here where we can discuss UC without having to defend or be bombarded with these kinds of stats. As pamamidwife says we are looking at birth in a different way - and these stats current or not, may not be relevant to this new/old way of birthing.

I can tell you, before my first birth, I had people trying to explain normal physiological birth to me, and I couldn't understand the total impact of how other's actions could affect me. I had to learn through experience how this process can so easily be disrupted. My dh too; he had to learn too.

I'm very excited about Sarah Buckley's book. I hope I can get my hands on it soon :-)
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#135 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 11:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mama in the forest
I'm leaving this particular thread.
I hope you'll reconsider. I appreciate much of what you've said and I think there is a lot of value in this discussion. You know, don't you, that there is an "ignore" feature that you can use to make a member's posts invisible to you?
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#136 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 11:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doula mary
I don't think we can completely ignore the abstracts either, as Dr. Jen pointed out.
That's not what she said.

Quote:
I knew too when I posted that, that someone would argue you that it's because that stage is "managed". Read up on what countries have the highest PPH rates....I highly DOUBT this stages were managed (or mismanaged) at all.
Why do you doubt that?

Quote:
AND yes, I know they are poverty ridden and malnourished..which INDEED plays a role.
Sooo... tell me again... how is this relevant to us?
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#137 of 215 Old 04-28-2006, 11:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
I think birth attendants are perfectly appropriate for some women. Some women might need to be alone but I refuse to negate the importance of a woman supporting another women during labor and birth.
No one is asking you to. But it is highly inappropriate of you to continue to promote it here on the UC board. You say your welcome here has not been warm, but is it really very hard to understand why? Yes, it is irritating to have someone who does not believe in what we're doing come on here and deign to educate us about birth. It would be like an OB saying to a group of homebirth midwives, "well, what you're doing is dangerous and I don't agree with it, but out of the goodness of my heart I'll address your ignorance as I can."

Quote:
Some women might need to be alone but I refuse to negate the importance of a woman supporting another women during labor and birth. To me it is sacred and primal. We have lost this in modern birthing...it is a gift.
Wonderful. I really mean that. And there is a forum here all about that. But this is not that forum. You really need to understand that if you are going to keep posting here.

Quote:
I don't think I have anything to teach anybody here, I'm here to learn.
On the contrary, you have done nothing but tell us that we're wrong, and that women being with women is so beautiful, etc. You may be learning (and if so, great,) but you certainly have been trying to teach us something as well.

Quote:
My experience on the UC forum has come in second for the most defensive...the first experience on a mainstream parents forum where there were fanatical formula feeders.. weird.
You say things like this, and you wonder why you have not been warmly welcomed. Honestly, Mary, I'm at a loss.
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#138 of 215 Old 04-29-2006, 12:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
*You don't know me or my experience. What is YOUR training? Where did you go to school, how many birth have you done? I'm sorry you feel my evidence is outdated..certainly the info. on planned and unplanned births has "some" merit..but how do you measure the safety of a UC as Dr. Jen pointed out. The info available on PPH and maternal deaths is too numerous and is extemely updated...you dont know what my references are. I would be happy to share them
what is your experience? you said you've been practicing for 10 years...who did you train through? are you certified? why or why not? how many births have you done? maybe we would have a better understanding of where you're coming from if you gave us more information about your background and experience.

and please, list the studies you are talking about, links to their websites or what books/journals we can find them in. yes, there is a good possibility we may pick the study apart, but then again, if it is a reputable study, we may not.

BTW, if people start picking apart a study that you posted, don't take it personally. they're finding fault with the study, not necessarily with you. i know how difficult it can be when people start telling you your information isn't very reliable (i was offended when people on other boards used to pick apart my pro-vax statistics, then i started doing my own vax research and realized they were right!).

anyways, just jumping in with my 2 cents....

successful #2 Jan. 25th - welcome Maisie Elise!
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#139 of 215 Old 04-29-2006, 12:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
I don't think we can completely ignore the abstracts either, as Dr. Jen pointed out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
That's not what she said.
It isn't what I said. Or if it is, it isn't what I meant. I meant to point out that how important it is to consider how evidence is collected, whether it has relevance to the situation you yourself are considering, and whether it is accurate. Also, it is vitally important to remember that although in the age of evidence based medicine, we purport that "evidence" is somehow completely objective, in reality it is not, nor can it ever fully be disconnected from the social constructs from which it arises. Science and even "evidence based medicine" are themselves belief systems. I happen to live in the world where evidence is very important, and I try very hard to stay on top of the latest and greatest, and I very freely share every bit of evidence I'm using in making a recommendation with my own clients. But I also recognize that evidence will never be the sole factor in any decision made by a real person, nor should it be, nor should I feel any personal discomfort if someone receives my knowledge of the evidence, and chooses to do something other than what I recommend.

The women of the UC board have provided me with a lot of food for thought since I started lurking here. They have always been gracious and inclusive if I've posted with questions or comments. This is a support board, and they tend to be understandably upset if someone posts saying that they think their choice is wrong, and seems to feel that they need to be educated and talked out of it.
I feel learning here has been an important source of personal growth for me, and has made me a better birth attendant. It has also helped me understand why I have certain feelings about my own births, and helped me process those feelings.
I, too, believe in the importance of being a good birth attendant. Heck, it is one of the most important things in my life. But reading here has made me understand how much of what I do is an intervention that may not be wanted, and often is completely unnecessary.
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#140 of 215 Old 04-29-2006, 01:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
Read up on what countries have the highest PPH rates....I highly DOUBT this stages were managed (or mismanaged) at all.

Mary
I thought 3rd world countries had the highest PPH rates? My impression of 3rd world countries is that people mostly either gave birth at clinics or at home with untrained attendants? Situations where either someone's going to be rushing to get to the next patient or where someone doesn't know what they're doing and in either case would be more likely to pull on a cord or otherwise interfere?

Can anyone tell me if I'm even close to right on that guess? I realize it's elitist and patronizing to assume that 'we' do things better than 'them,' so maybe in those countries the doctors and people figured out that cord-traction was bad long before people figured that out in the industrial world?
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#141 of 215 Old 04-29-2006, 01:20 AM
 
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Not only do I think UC birth is unsafe but apparently the women who practice it are *generally*, quite defensive and unable to have a civil exchange of ideas. [...] My experience on the UC forum has come in second for the most defensive...
Speaking of defensive...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pamamidwife
As a practicing midwife, I am constantly having to unlearn nearly everything I was taught in midwifery school. Why? Because when we completely understand the physiological processes of labor and birth - the fine delicate hormonal balance that is necessary for the survival of the species - we realize that what we are taught as birth attendants is not only inaccurate but can sometimes be detrimental to a baby's or mother's health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doula mary
You don't know me or my experience. What is YOUR training? Where did you go to school, how many birth have you done?
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#142 of 215 Old 04-30-2006, 12:10 PM
 
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Thread returned. Please note that while the Unassisted Birth forum is not support only, it is not acceptable to come here with the express intention of denigrating unassisted childbirth. That said, you all seem to be handling the situation well enough. Future UA-violating posting will receive alerts or warnings.

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#143 of 215 Old 04-30-2006, 01:08 PM
 
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Thank you Anna.
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#144 of 215 Old 04-30-2006, 01:10 PM
 
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I feel learning here has been an important source of personal growth for me, and has made me a better birth attendant.
I can't tell you how edifying it is to me to read the above words -- to know that what we do here is creating understanding. Thank you for that. But I want to thank you also for your tact, your insight, your reason, your humility, and your respectfulness, both here and all over MDC. I appreciate it so much.

-Linda
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#145 of 215 Old 04-30-2006, 01:30 PM
 
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darn, I was hoping this thread would stay gone. It doesnt belong here.

There will never be any reliable statistics on UC. Because to do a study, takes money. And no one will ever fund such a study, because it would not benefit any one in any way. UC does not bring money, or business to anyone.

:

I still have yet to understand why people who are opposed to UC, visit this forum.

wife to my awesome DH, homeschooling, unassisted birthing, food growing, life loving mama to 5 crazy monkeys. :
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#146 of 215 Old 04-30-2006, 01:37 PM
 
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There'll be good statistics on UC as soon as someone comes up with a way to protect parents from CPS when they answer a survey.

And this is a good thread since it consolidates a number of interesting points on people's thoughts regarding UC. The whole extravert/introvert thing, the difference between feeling supported by other people and feeling like one is performing for an audience, lots of good stuff in here.
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#147 of 215 Old 04-30-2006, 01:41 PM
 
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Well, what I see is that there are many important issues concerning UC that have been addressed on this thread, and I think it would be a shame to lose what people have written about them just because one poster refuses to acknowledge our points. Despite that frustrating element to it, to me it's been a very good discussion.

ETA: sapphire_chan, we posted at the same time. I could have just said, ITA.
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#148 of 215 Old 04-30-2006, 02:02 PM
 
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I think there are just still a lot of fears about birth. Homebirth is more accepted than it was - I know doula mary is a doula for homebirth clients in a state where homebirth is illegal (midwives can practice in a hospital under the supervision of physicians, but if they attend to a client at home, the client cannot mention the midwife for fear of getting her in trouble legally...sad but true) and that takes courage and conviction. But UC goes beyond homebirthing, and while some may feel comfortable with homebirthing, they may have difficulty stretching that to include UCing as well.

To me, the hardest thing I think people outside of the UC or even homebirth communities struggle to accept is the "what if something would go wrong." From inside the UC community and spending a few months on the Birth and Beyond boards in general, I think those of us in the UC community fear what might happen if we went to the hospital or had a midwife telling us what to do in our own home more than we fear some complication that might come up while we are giving birth on our own. We are prepared for the typical complications - bleeding, baby not breathing right away, etc. - but we expect them to not be as likely to happen since the natural process of birth is undisturbed. And that's the part that I think is very difficult for people to understand. You really have to turn your thinking inside out to get to that point - from "Wow! I'm glad they were at the hospital/had a midwife!" to "That's so sad! I wonder if the doctor/midwife would have left her alone if that would have even happened."

I can also see how it is easy for us to be lumped in together with the people who are scared and have their baby in an alley or school bathroom. Obviously those moms upmost concern is not having a safe, natural birth - rather, they're concerned with hiding their baby. The contrast between them and us is black and white, but someone coming in from the general birthing community doesn't necessarily understand that.

Tana, wife to Steve (5/02), mom to Ben (7/03), Joey (10/06) and Caroline (9/09)
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#149 of 215 Old 04-30-2006, 02:05 PM
 
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Look at a blue and yellow grid from far enough away and all you'll see is green.
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#150 of 215 Old 04-30-2006, 03:17 PM
 
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Sorry for the double post
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