Statistics anyone? - Page 8 - Mothering Forums

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#211 of 215 Old 08-25-2007, 10:38 PM
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I think they don't believe in intuition, and so don't know to look for it.

I don't know about THEY, I don't really know any midwives IRL, but in Anne Frye's book~ Holistic Midwifery (a textbook for midwives) she explicitly states that the mother's intuition is a very important indicator as to how the labor is progressing. I wish I could remember exactly how it was worded......

So, the idea IS there, even beyond our little freaky fringe. It is in midwifery textbooks at least! I wonder how much is lost not because of self-centered care-providers or even care-providers who are taught that observable data provides more accurate indicators, but because (like you said) the mothers rely on the midwives to guide them.....and the midwives grow accustomed to filling that role.


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#212 of 215 Old 08-26-2007, 12:15 AM
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! it took me almost two hours (slow reader, heh), but i finally have read this entire thread.

thank you all so much for existing! thank you for inspiring me and motivating me. thank you for reminding me and supporting me.

i think this thread contains so many wonderful points of view. even the arguing was helpful. at first, i felt threatened, scared -- as i'm sure those who were involved probably did -- because the UC forums has been my HAVEN! nobody but dh is open to this topic IRL, and i've really been needing to have the community here. i'll admit that at first, reading the conflict a few pages back put me on edge. it served as a reminder that by choosing to live our lives based on our *radical* ideals and beliefs, we are making ourselves very vulnerable -- even here. still, after reading through the whole thing, i feel so empowered!

something i've been dealing with lately is the dichotomy between OTHER'S opinions of me, and my opinion of myself. i've been discovering that much of my mental prattle has much more to do with other's opinions. actually, i have quite a lot of trust in myself, my beliefs and my decisions. so what if someone else doesn't understand and doesn't care to and goes on to have an opinion? i'm slowly learning to separate how others feel about me and how i feel about myself -- and behave accordingly, not letting the fear of judgment make my decisions or frame my demeanor.

the reference to loss really brought this home for me. dh and i talked about the possibility of loss during my pregnancy with ds. we both felt confident that we would rather take that responsibility than give it to the hospital. ... still, we all know what it would "look" like to people on the outside. that is, if we take responsibility and something goes wrong, well, it's all our fault and we didn't do the right thing by our baby. during that pregnancy, i was very confident in myself, my self-esteem was at an all time high and i was ready to battle the world! however, this pregnancy i'm going through a lot of emotional turmoil, battling depression and low self esteem. i've just realized that dealing not only with my responses to loss, but others' also is something i'm really going to have to work with throughout this pregnancy. because i know that if something went wrong in a hospital, i would have a much harder time forgiving myself, because i would realize that some of my motivation for going to the hospital was based on what "they" might think, kwim? whereas, if something happened at home, if i was left alone to heal, i would have a much easier time with it; however, if i was, during that vulnerable time, made to feel "bad" for my choice, what that would do to my healing process would be very detrimental! this is why i need to really concentrate on this for the next six months. so that i can go with my heart and mind (birth at home and only transfer if i feel it's necessary), stay open to the fact that my baby could (possibly) die, and be prepared for the emotional fall out that would be associated, not with my feelings toward my decisions, myself or my baby, but the outside opinions of others.

does any of that make sense? ... i'm about to cry just thinking about it.

anyway, thank you all again! this board helps me to not only get through my life in the easy/pain free way, but to really face the challenges presented to me in awareness.
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#213 of 215 Old 08-26-2007, 09:24 AM
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Holy cow this is an old thread, I remember reading and following it all last year as the page #s increased!

And yes, tons of good info/points/arguments among the pages...

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#214 of 215 Old 08-27-2007, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by boheime View Post
I believe the OP was looking for ACCURATE statistics. Look at what is actually in those articles. They don't follow scientific procedure. They assume many unknown things.

Both of my children were born UC. I am married and we filled out the birth certificate. We included Apgar scores (and both of the birth certificates - for two different states as we moved in between the births of our children - required Apgar scores to be valid). So, according to that study, some unknown attendant delivered our children. No. Do you realize how skewed these "stats" are?

The MO study is just as flawed. Did you realize that lay midwives are illegal in the state of MO. Because of this, many births are filed as UC in order to protect the lay midwife. So, right there you can throw out any stats in this study as they are inaccurate.

We researched birth extensively for two years prior to conceiving. Based on my research, I know that giving birth unassisted is the safest way for me, my children, and my family. Dh and I know the signs of a true emergency. We know what to do in case of an emergency. We know how to recognize signs of a possible true emergency so that we have time to get help. We know what is really an emergency and what is not. There is nothing that a midwife or doctor can do to help in our home that we are not capable of doing ourselves.

Did I have birth experience before our first child? Not really. Besides some farm animals, I had never been to a birth. I am intelligent, well educated, well researched, and know how to listen to both my body and baby in order to have the best possible outcome.

Frankly, anyone who makes a living from birth is going to be against UC. UC empowers women. It empowers couples. It empowers families. It puts so called birth "professionals" out of work. That just is not going to go over well. They like having a job, paying their bills, and eating food. They like job security. So of course, they are going to tell a woman that she NEEDS them. Her baby NEEDS them. The birth WON'T BE SAFE without them. Would you expect a vaccine manufacturer to tell you that vaccines might cause problems? No.
The last paragraph was just was I was hoping to say; but so much better than I could've done, the entire response is great!

To go even deeper than that: I beleive that The fact is, we as UCers are weighing alot more than physical health or mere statistics-which are basicly a physical thing anyway. What should be considered is the spiritual health that depends on our personal birth experiences. (and how the treatment of birthing mothers, mentally and emotionally, -are effected spiritually)
Are we passionate and defensive of our rights wether legal or just plain possible judgement of right/wrong? Absolutely!!! And proud of it!
I ensured my mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual, health by taking the responsibiliity of birthing upon myself. I beleive that I gained from it, an enlightenment spiritually and in all those aspects that so many women lose out on and will never be able to have. It has begun to change the way I think about and do everything in my life.
Of course I'm passionate! I experienced all of the hormones and feelings I was meant to! That can't be measured by any statistic because UCing goes behond that which is of a physical nature. It includes all that there is!
Because I UCed I'm complete. Feeling complete and spiritually/emotionally healthy has been said to impact a person's physical health, so now we go back to even more of the physiological benefits of UCing- that most probably proceed far after birth. I'd like to add that my statement is not about any religiously motivated decision. Religion and spirituality are entirely different things to me.(I would NOT even consider the act of a religion making regulations for people's health -and the followers complying with those regulations, as decision making) Because of my beleif of that; I don't beleive that in that situation a woman has any freedoms, therefore it's not a complete UC. My spirituality as well as my philosophical beleifs motivate me. Not religion. I beleive that religion is dangerous. I don't go by any one elses book of rules and regulations - or at least as little as possible. I also beleive that in relation to the specifics of the study mentioned that was refering to a religious group, and corresponding high death rates -that put UCing in a negative light- it's entirely possible that the cause could've been that the controlling environment-which spills into mental/emotional distress and possibly lack of education as well- (Because self education is part of freedom) Several factors in the environment surrounding the births are what may have caused higher rates of complications/deaths. That's assuming those statistics are even correct, which I doubt as well. Intentional and thoughtful, planned, UCers can not be lumped into groups of highly controlled people, wether it be drugs or religion that may be considered a factor in their decision or thought to be what their motivation was to supposedly UC.
It is not really possible to study a birthing woman's confidence, safety, comfort level, therefore it would be very complicated to study and pin down numbers of supposedly 'safe' births. Birth and death happen it's simply as safe as the perception of the whole thing. Especially to the woman is birthing. It's personal. It can't be broken down in a study. Control of one's own birth has to become the norm to be proven either way.

Oh yeah, I also don't think that one out of a hundred is bad... That's one percent. some people trust birth control/profilactics to 'protect' them with a very similar percentage. How can one out of a hundred be bad? It's all about personal perspective.

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#215 of 215 Old 08-27-2007, 03:52 PM
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I have closed this thread to new posts, but it will remain on the boards for search purposes. Please feel free to start a new thread if there's something new that needs to be discussed as it pertains to support, encouragement and community surrounding unassisted birth. Do keep in mind the MDC User Agreement. Thanks!

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