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Old 05-04-2006, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pageta
So forgive me if I'm being a cynic, but birth plans should help you choose the right provider - beyond that, they aren't worth much. A great birth plan will not protect you from a c-section if your OB has a high c-section rate and is quick to do them at the slightest indication that there might be trouble.
Reading through hospital birth plans is one of things that utterly convinced me that only a dire emergency would make me give birth in a hospital.

Anyway, moving back to the original topic.
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Old 05-04-2006, 03:20 PM
 
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Something my mother said to me about birth is "it isn't so much the environment that dictates whether a birth will be good or bad, it's how empowered the woman feels about her birth"

I think one of the problems with many attendents is that they act to empower themselves "I can save lives" rather than the woman "she can do this."

UC is, naturally, inherently empowering.
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Old 05-04-2006, 03:53 PM
 
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I agree with what someone said before that some women are fine with their intervention filled birth because they just don't know better. My mom gave birth twice with almost the same experience I had, but she looks at her births fondly, even 23 years later. She doesn't get why it was so traumatic to me. She and my dad both give me the whole "you're baby is healthy and that's all that matters, you were better off in the hospital" lines. But they have the Dr is God complex and really don't think a woman does anything in a birth. After they found out I was planning on having a UC, my dad says to DH "wow, that takes a lot of balls to deliver your own baby, I can't believe you were planning on doing that" with no comment to me whatsoever, as if I would of had no involvement in the birth. And really I think that's why women want the Dr to make decisions for them, they were raised that women don't *do* anything in a birth, only the Dr does. It sounds so screwed up to most of us who know that a birth is all about the woman's power, but many people just don't see that.
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:21 PM
 
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that WHO you choose to attend you (or not) makes a HUGE difference on how your birth goes generally. It is not enough to go to your OB/DR/MW and tell her what you want. You must go and ask them, their philosophy of birth, that is there induction rate, what is their episiotomies rate, what is there c-birth rate and what is their VBAC rate. You can glean so much from discussing these topics, not only by their replies but by their attitude. When do they like to augment labor and how, what do they look for when considering a c-birth? I know many of OB's here will smile and nod and generally lie to women.
All of this is avoided by having a UC. And frankly, the whole concept makes me sick to my stomach. The idea that I would need to go ASK an individual these questions.......like and agree with their answers....and then welcome them to my birth makes me just want to hurl!!! This is just not how birth IS in my mind.

Even with midwives today......it's all about stats and rates and assessments and signing waivers (and then dealing with their disapproval) and it's just disgusting. What birth has come to today is just not for me.

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Old 05-04-2006, 04:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mama in the forest
All of this is avoided by having a UC. And frankly, the whole concept makes me sick to my stomach. The idea that I would need to go ASK an individual these questions.......like and agree with their answers....and then welcome them to my birth makes me just want to hurl!!! This is just not how birth IS in my mind.

Even with midwives today......it's all about stats and rates and assessments and signing waivers (and then dealing with their disapproval) and it's just disgusting. What birth has come to today is just not for me.
I agree!

At least there are threads like this one, where non-UCing women can become educated by our experiences and opinions. AND forums like this one where those of us who know what birth can be can feel supported and empowered for our decisions.

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Old 05-04-2006, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Cravenaboo said "I think you are wrong to assume that all nurses read birth plans.

The hospital where I did clinical in nursing school, the L & D nurses referred to birth plans as "OR tickets" as in operating room.

Then again this is a hospital where every birth I witnessed the mom had epidural, internal monitoring, baby in nursery for 4 hours, type of thing. Except for one, and the mom had to threaten a lawsuit to get them to back off the internal monitoring thing.

I am sure many hospitals aren't like this. But again, not all nurses read birth plans, and if they do read them, that doesn't mean they will honor them"

**Yes, I never said ALL NURSES READ birth plans, but where I attend births and where Tana might birth, they DO read the plans. I cant really comment on other hospitals because I'm not there at births. At least from my personal experience, it is a good idea to have a birth/babycare plan. I don't think it is appropriate to say "I'm wrong"

As Tana mentioned, we are very lucky to have this wonderful place to birth. It IS like a birthing center. In fact they wanted to open a birthing center and the pediatricians shot it down. They have always been sort ahead of the times when it came to birthing naturally. 95% of the nurses are incredible and proponents for natural birth. This hospital had a volunteer doula program, one of the first in the country, EVERY room has a huge birthing tub and the rooms themselves resemble a "modern spa" vs. hospital room. This hospital hosted Penny Simkin to discuss the use of the labor sling....to the MW's, nurses and doulas last year. This is a hospital where nurses actually "decline" working with certain Dr's because of the intervention rates. This is a hospital that does waterbirths everyday, where doulas are welcomed and accepted and where the MW's are quite popular. I currently have three labor and delivery nurses coming to my support group. The MW's and the nurses play a HUGE role, but again...mothers must choose their providers carefully.

Honestly, when I hear the horror stories, I am amazed, I just don't see that kind of birth too often and when I do..I'm not surprised because of who the Dr. is and where they birth at.

BTW Tana...you can leave when ever you want...you might have to sign a "waiver" (Silly, I know..but who cares...I just signed for a delivery of doula brochures )

Mama in the forest...yes, this is why a UC is right for you...but honestly, most moms DON'T want to birth alone.

Mary
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
Just as I am opening myself to UC, you as well need to be open to the reality that some women ARE delighted with their births attended by MW's and doula's.
-So for every mom unhappy with their birth there also is a mom who....is extremely pleased with their MW, (Dr Jen) and doula attended births.
-I only HEAR GOOD things about the MW's who practice here (and who...I LOVE to work with).
-98% of my first time clients have me again, in fact I'm on baby/labor/birth #3 with many families. These are experienced birthers who choose to have doula support (again and again). I also have loads of clients that didn't have me for first baby and had doula and MW care for subsequent babies and are thrilled with their births...long after the glow of birth.

Mary
Why do I get the feeling that this thread isn't about "asking" and sharing anymore and it's starting to be about convincing and arguing? Mary, if you truly are "opening" yourself to UC, you need to understand that this is not the place to argue for mw/doula attended birth. This thread is going way off topic because you take the opportunity to argue with peoples responses. Your original "questions" are becoming a thinly veiled excuse to argue your own beliefs, yet again. I'm disappointed.
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:48 PM
 
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Mary, if you truly are "opening" yourself to UC, you need to understand that this is not the place to argue for mw/doula attended birth
Exactly.

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Old 05-04-2006, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Morgansmom,
I'm sorry you feel that way...it is a discussion..which is the point of forums.

I like what Skim said "At least there are threads like this one, where non-UCing women can become educated by our experiences and opinions. AND forums like this one where those of us who know what birth can be can feel supported and empowered for our decisions."

I think we are more alike than not, all women who are interested in birth, I think we all have something to learn from each other!

Mary
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:01 PM
 
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Mama in the forest...yes, this is why a UC is right for you...but honestly, most moms DON'T want to birth alone.
True, UC is most definitely right for me. Though I do not birth alone. I can't speak to my upcoming birth as to whether or not I will be alone, but in my past births I was not alone. My entire family was present. There is a difference between birthing "alone", birthing with family present, and birthing with today's midwife, doctor, or doula. We all agree that it is the woman's choice.

Unfortunately for today's woman who wants a midwife, she must jump through all the hoops, sign the waivers, submit to testing (of various types), and fit into the midwife's (or doula or doctor) definition of what is appropriate for that particular practitioners scope of practice.

See.....UC is such a different mindset than the births you have attended Mary. I don't know if we can adequately describe it to you. It begins within a woman's own concept of self......her own intuitions, her own instincts, and flows through a complete cycle of her own power. Charts, readings, waivers, birth centers, professional concepts, legalities, blood pressure cuffs, birth plans, tests, even the energies/attitudes/beliefs/feelings of an outside person.......all of this has nothing to do with us. It just doesn't matter and it isn't part of our births.

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Old 05-04-2006, 05:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
I'm not a health care provider, I really do come in peace, asking legitmate questions....trying to learn.

Respectfully,
Mary
That's what this thread is supposed to be about. Maybe you should start a thread titled "Pros and cons of assisted vs. unassisted birth" or something, if that's really what you want to "discuss". Your original questions had nothing to do with that, which is why I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and be the first to actually answer your questions. When you spend most of your time arguing for attended births, it doesn't make it seem like you're really trying to learn about UC, or respect the purpose of this forum or even the thread you created.
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
Just as I am opening myself to UC, you as well need to be open to the reality that some women ARE delighted with their births attended by MW's and doula's.
You are assuming and condescending yet again, to think that I need to be told to expand my thinking on this and that you are the one to do it. I did not say anywhere that I believe that there are no women who are delighted with their births attended by midwives and doulas. In fact, for the record, I am completely supportive of midwife-attended birth as a choice, and believe that it is probably ideal for many women.

Quote:
So for every mom unhappy with their birth there also is a mom who....is extremely pleased with their MW, (Dr Jen) and doula attended births. [...] I only HEAR GOOD things about the MW's who practice here (and who...I LOVE to work with). [...] 98% of my first time clients have me again, in fact I'm on baby/labor/birth #3 with many families. These are experienced birthers who choose to have doula support (again and again). I also have loads of clients that didn't have me for first baby and had doula and MW care for subsequent babies and are thrilled with their births...long after the glow of birth.
You have yet again turned around a talk about unassisted birth to advocacy for and defense of midwife-attended birth. I thought this thread was supposed to be about our journeys to UC, but you are making it about yourself, Mary, and how appreciated your services are, and how many women love midwives. I see now that you have not accepted yet that this is not the appropriate place for that. It appears that cravenab00 was right.
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
Mama in the forest...yes, this is why a UC is right for you...but honestly, most moms DON'T want to birth alone.

Mary
Mary, please keep in mind that this forum is for women who *do* want to birth alone. Having the belief that many (not all or possibly even most) women would want to birth alone if they knew it was possible and sharing stories of bad experiences does not equate to rejecting all attended births.

When someone shares that "xyz happened to me in a hospital" they are not saying "xyz happens to everyone who ever goes to a hospital."

Also, while many hospital/attended homebirthers are not aware that it is possible to birth alone, all UCers are aware of the choice to birth attended.
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:11 PM
 
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I think starting an attended/unattended birth thread in birth and beyond would be an excellent idea.
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:14 PM
 
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Mary,

Something that might help you understand UC, try to read the stories from the point of view of the mother rather than as a careprovider. Step away from your usual role in birth and into the role of the laboring mother.
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:16 PM
 
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Glad I decided against answering this thread cause it went exactly where I thought it would go.

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Old 05-04-2006, 05:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by doula mary
If a woman decides to have a planned c-birth for nonmedical reasons and SHE IS INFORMED ABOUT THE RISKS, then...we have to say.."it's her party and she can do what she wants to" even though...the thought of that makes some of us cringe. It's about HER....her experience...we don't know what her "path" is.

Mary
But it's not only about her. At the risk of derailing the thread (cause that never happens around here), unnessecary c-sections are bad for not only the mother but the baby too. Call me judgemental (I'm part of that tribe), but I have a problem with a mother who knows the risks involved and chooses to put her baby through that sort of trauma for selfish reasons. Yes, it's her birth and we should all have the right to birth how we choose, but to take a "whatever" attitude about it completely baffles me.

*steps off soapbox*
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:34 PM
 
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You are assuming and condescending yet again, to think that I need to be told to expand my thinking on this and that you are the one to do it. I did not say anywhere that I believe that there are no women who are delighted with their births attended by midwives and doulas. In fact, for the record, I am completely supportive of midwife-attended birth as a choice, and believe that it is probably ideal for many women.

You have yet again turned around a talk about unassisted birth to advocacy for and defense of midwife-attended birth. I thought this thread was supposed to be about our journeys to UC, but you are making it about yourself, Mary, and how appreciated your services are, and how many women love midwives. I see now that you have not accepted yet that this is not the appropriate place for that. It appears that cravenab00 was right, and so I am bowing out of the thread.
If you really are "completely supportive of midwife-attended birth as a choice, and believe that it is probably ideal for many women," I don't understand how you can think that Mary is being condescending and assuming. I think she is simply explaining why, from her experience, UC isn't the only option. If the only option was the type of births that women are describing here, I think Mary would be 100% in support of UC births. As it stands, I think she supports empowered births that are UC in spirit, even though there may be attendants present. I think there is a big difference in the types of births the women here are describing and the average birth that Mary attends.

I don't think she is being anti-UC at all - I think she is just saying that the births she attends don't fit the same description as the ones that have driven the women here to UC - she is not disagreeing with their choice to UC. Just because you believe that someone can have a positive birth experience with attendants doesn't mean that it is wrong to have a birth without attendants.

Perhaps it is condescending and assuming of the UCers to say that Mary is being anti-UC when she is stating that the births she attends are nothing like the ones being related as reasons for wanting to UC.

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Old 05-04-2006, 05:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mama in the forest
All of this is avoided by having a UC. And frankly, the whole concept makes me sick to my stomach. The idea that I would need to go ASK an individual these questions.......like and agree with their answers....and then welcome them to my birth makes me just want to hurl!!! This is just not how birth IS in my mind.

Even with midwives today......it's all about stats and rates and assessments and signing waivers (and then dealing with their disapproval) and it's just disgusting. What birth has come to today is just not for me.
Yes, it's disgusting that one cannot assume that a provider believes in empowered natural birth. I agree wholeheartedly! But that doesn't mean that there aren't providers out there who are exceptions. If you really want an empowered birth (which every woman should), you can look hard enough to find a provider, or you can just UC. For some women, it's easier to simply UC rather than going through the agony of trying to find someone who they can have an empowered birth with. I don't blame them!

But I think that writing off the possibility that there are empowering providers out there is just as wrong as writing off UC as wrong and unsafe. Let's talk about being closeminded...

Tana, wife to Steve (5/02), mom to Ben (7/03), Joey (10/06) and Caroline (9/09)
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:49 PM
 
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I had a failed UC but this thread has been stalking me so I'll take it as a sign I should contribute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doula mary

What was your journey in deciding to UC?
Before my husband and I even started TTC when we talked about birth he always talked about having a midwife. A hospital birth just wasn't in the plans. When I did get pregnant the couple midwives I talked with were booked for my birth month. So while we looked for another one the idea of having someone there was just kind of dropped. One night after reading something (I want to say here in the UC forum) it just hit home. Why would I have someone there? The thought made me very anxious and nervous feeling. I wasn't comfortable with someone being there. So after going over it in my mind for a little bit I brought it up to DH who reluctantly agreed. We had had a couple doctor visits due to qualifying for WIC and we were completely unimpressed. He was nervous about it and that facilitated in our UC failure later on. Doing a UC naturally started with a UP. I became sick in December when I was about 15-20 weeks along. The doctor treated me like an idiot and like my being pregnant had no bareing on anything he did for me. He solidified our decision for a UP/UC. I ended up transferring in because of the pain. DD was face up and I didn't know it. None of my coping techniques were working and I was upset that the water wasn't working. I finally said I wanted pain killer. DH being upset at my obvious level of pain agreed. I was in transition. I wish I could have realized that then or at least have thought to call my sister. I needed another female. Someone who had given birth and could tell me that it was normal, buck up, and do what I needed to do. I needed uterus support and my husband was lacking that.

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Originally Posted by doula mary
What did/does your partner think?
He was nervous about it. He had a hard time reading the things I was reading and therefore wasn't prepared emotionally for it. When I wanted pain killer he was more than happy to get it for me. At that point I was crying through contractions and saying I just wanted a break and why wasn't the water working. He was freaked out. Once at the hospital though things took a turn for the worse and DH is scarred by it all. Due to things the doctor told him he's very weary of a homebirth of any kind now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doula mary
Do you have friends that also UC and support you? What is your biggest concern and what is the greatest benefit?
No one other than my sister would think of a homebirth much less a UC so no, I have no friends who would UC. My biggest worries are like any other pregnant womans...the health of my baby. I can't say what the biggest benefit would be since mine was a failed UC. The next time around though it will be a success!

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Old 05-04-2006, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Boy...I step off this thread and come back to such negativity.. that's too bad!

Sapphire chan, I did read about those births and was taken away..with what I read, and again thank those of you who shared them.

4littlebirds, I'm sorry you think I'm being condescending again, the thread took a turn because of the stories... I heard... I was shocked

2bluefish shared that she was surprised about the hospital in our city...my further comments were in response to her. My comments about my clients being happy was in response to what you said.

"A birth often looks different from perspective of the helper than the mother. From the outside, I'm sure my traumatic birth looked very straight-forward and normal (and probably better than the average hospital birth.) It went "as planned".

*It was a reasonable comment to state that some women LIKE having assistnece with birth, in no way negating your beleif in UC.

In fact, you post brought about many many thoughtful posts, and this thread is several pages long.

I'm sorry you are not interested in my experience too.

Do you ladies think I would EVER try talk you into any birth other than a UC...that's almost laughable....I'm not a masochist

I'm certainly not the only person who took the thread OT, I think there are *kind* ways to redirect if you seem fit to do so. Honestly it seemed like a good and positive discussion until recently.

Yes, Tana...thank you for your further explanation..you did a better job than I!

I am here to understand WHY a woman chooses to UC, but as forest mama mentioned, I will never see a UC!! I must learn from those who are willing to talk about it with me. It should be OK to discuss why a women chooses one and why a women might not want one. I'm certainly not "arguing" anything.
Mary
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Old 05-04-2006, 05:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
You have yet again turned around a talk about unassisted birth to advocacy for and defense of midwife-attended birth. I thought this thread was supposed to be about our journeys to UC, but you are making it about yourself, Mary, and how appreciated your services are, and how many women love midwives. I see now that you have not accepted yet that this is not the appropriate place for that. It appears that cravenab00 was right.
Mary, I agree with fourlittlebirds here.

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Old 05-04-2006, 06:08 PM
 
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm very sorry you feel that way.

Many very worthwhile things came from this thread, first...I got to hear your stories! I learned so much...

I really liked the discussion about birth trauma and that alone merits more discussion.

The point that some women want a UC and some don't is valid as well.

Also, worth discussing more...why some women refuse to be educated and take responsibility for their birth

Since I was the OP, I would like to think, I can post on this thread too.

This is not "all about me'...weird to think that really.


4littlebirds said "My support of midwife-attended birth has nothing to do with whether Mary was condescending and assuming. In order to make the statement that I need to understand that some women are happy with midwives, she had to assume that I don't believe that. And to think that she is somewhere above me in terms of insight that she knows this and I don't and it is her duty to enlighten me, that is condescending. So, yes, she assumed, and she condescended, and I support midwife-attended birth."

I'm NOT trying to be condescending and assuming..why don't you focus on the things in your posts that really brought forth great discussion instead of focusing on your assumption that I'm trying to "educate you" Golly, I hate it when threads turn negative...I don't think It is my job to "enlighten you" I made a point that is valid..that some women do find their MW/doula attended births "good too" I think a better question is why you are unable to discuss all birth options without getting upset?

Seems to me..this thread was proceeding just fine and one post that was "negative" brought it all down.

Mary
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:16 PM
 
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doula mary
The point that some women want a UC and some don't is valid as well.
But Mary, is this a point that needs to be made over and over and over on a UC forum? I can understand making the comment on the birth and beyond main page or the pregnancy main page, but not the forum FOR UC.

Mom to Dakota (6), Coy, (4), Max, (4), Lily (4), and Auri (June 19th 2010)!
Visit Lily's site at www.caringbridge.org/visit/lilymathis1
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:53 PM
 
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Doulamary, may I suggest a couple of strategies?

You could go back to reading our stories, and then you could make short, appreciative comments as you did in the beginning of the now-derailed thread. This would restore the thread's integrity, and show us all how much you really intend to listen/read/learn from our perspectives. Right now I'm not sure you are going to do this any more.

Going into the details of each mama's birth story is going to continue to derail the thread into Off Topic land, and close it up. If you have lots of questions or shock or awe at anyone's story, perhaps a PM would be more appropriate.

I'm sorry fourlittlebirds appears to be the ogre here. I see her efforts as keeping the thread on topic and calling out what I, too, have seen as discussion about attended births in general, when what we could all be talking about is our own path to UC and how this has affected us. And YOU.

I appreciate your willingness to learn, and I hope you can continue to do so here in the UC forum.

Kim

rural mama to DD1 DD2
unschooling, non-vaxing, writing, gardening, co-sleeping, critter-loving family :
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Old 05-04-2006, 06:54 PM
 
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Exactly! Thank you Kathryn, that is precisely what I was trying to say!
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4littlebirds
My support of midwife-attended birth has nothing to do with whether Mary was condescending and assuming. In order to make the statement that I need to understand that some women are happy with midwives, she had to assume that I don't believe that. And to think that she is somewhere above me in terms of insight that she knows this and I don't and it is her duty to enlighten me, that is condescending. So, yes, she assumed, and she condescended, and I support midwife-attended birth.
I think she was just stating her perspective. Can someone not relate a positive experience with a caregiver without being labeled anti-UC? Just because the experiences being related here and generally negative doesn't mean that positive experiences cannot happen? And just because one believes that it is possible to have a positive experience with a caregiver doesn't mean that they believe it is wrong to UC.

I guess this just hits me in the gut because on one hand, I have a DH who is terrified of birth so I'm very grateful for the positive birth options I have in additon to UC. At the same time, I have the highest regard for UC and believe that ideally, a woman should be able to give birth alone and let her body do what it needs to do rather than having an audience or "directors" for her experience. Am I glad that I have the option of hands-off caregivers? Absolutely! Do I still long for a UC? Absolutely! Can I say positive things about specific caregivers and still be pro-UC? I hope so.

Taking a deep breath...

Tana, wife to Steve (5/02), mom to Ben (7/03), Joey (10/06) and Caroline (9/09)
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Old 05-04-2006, 07:14 PM
 
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I'm a bit nervous about responding - I started to defend 4littlebirds a couple pages ago, but then thought she can take care of herself. I think what she was saying in the beginning was *not* that women can't have good midwife attended births, but that some of us have had births that look like "success" to professional birth attendants, but for us were not successes. I felt like DMary missed that - perhaps that's where the negativity started? Or not...

PS we can start new topics off of this one, like I did with my "tangent" - that might make it easier too?
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