Kick counts, etc - do you? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 45 Old 03-04-2007, 10:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NatureMamaOR View Post
ah, ok, Thanks for clarifying.

The way I see it, fetal kick counting is NOT connecting, it is stepping back and observing scientifically instead of being connected.
Sure and I suppose that will depend on the woman who is doing the observation. Maybe there is a busy woman (maybe she works outside the home or has many kids who require her attention) who might just sit there and go, "1, 2, 3, check!" and go on with her day having completed another task. While another might go into a quiet room, turn on some music, turn the lights down low, meditate, rest, put her hands on her belly, talk and really connect with her baby and get something totally different out of it.

I guess I'm just missing where this might be "bad" or against the UC philosophy. There is a lot of talk in this section about how or when to use doppler, suction, herbs, medications, etc., and lots of other things as a midwife I wouldn't do. This is using nothing but your heart and I wonder why I'm feeling the heat?
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#32 of 45 Old 03-04-2007, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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well, I can't personally answer for the doppler/suction type people, as I'm not one. I do use herbs, but then so did the midwives who I had with my youngest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? You don't use herbs?

I don't know that there is any one UC philosophy. Some choose care with a provider, then birth unassisted, some (I am in this group) monitor and birth entirely unassisted by an "expert" other than themselves.

When I evaluate what "procedures" are worthy of my doing, I look at the ultimate goal of it. What is the ultimate goal of kick counting. It provides information to the care provider. I think that is probably where many are prickling. We are the "care providers", and as such are more connected with our babies than any person outside of us could be. (pardon my horrible grammar, preggo brain is thick today) It seems to us a superfluous remainder of "expert" oriented care.
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#33 of 45 Old 03-04-2007, 10:38 PM
 
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well, I can't personally answer for the doppler/suction type people, as I'm not one. I do use herbs, but then so did the midwives who I had with my youngest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? You don't use herbs?
I was just rattling off a list of presumptive "interventions" not found on (in!) the person herself
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#34 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 06:39 AM
 
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before you read this post:
my tone meant: was trying to peacefully convey potential alternatives to "kick count" data

also conveying the importance of acknowledging the person you were gifted with stewardship over.


**
My idea that counting is not a bonding effort may be better conveyed by imagining these examples:

While "making out" with your partner {in any fashion/level you choose}, you keep count of a particular action/or verbal expression/etc.

While having a heart to heart with your mom, you keep noticing how she says one particular word more often.


If you are focusing on/counting/keeping constant valuations of something, you cannot at the same time be truly present. It is not the same.

That to me is where there is a discrepancy.

For a momma who is not paying attention/taking time to focus on/get to know/think about her baby...yes - counting might incline her to do that as well, but that is not the goal or the resulting product of the activity.

If you feel like a woman needs to get more "into" her pregnancy, or to acknowledge her baby, I personally feel you ought to be outright up-front about why one should focus on/get to know this person who has come to be with her, and what the potential karmic / emotional /social ramifications are of ignoring this person. That you might suggest that she do some soul searching/counceling about why/what is going on about this event in her life for her.

I posted earlier about what I personally feel a midwife's position ought to be/ where so many fail, and how the woman in the post was relieved she had found a midwife who would be what she needed:

A midwife ought to: Teach women how to care for themselves, overall - as well as in their pregnancy and birth. Direct them towards self education/empowerment/ownership over ones self and life choices. Facilitate growth on all levels. Be a life facilitator of sorts.

Counting does not deliver bonding, it merely answers a care providers question. Its a sterile/non-connecting type of information sharing.

As an alternative, a midwife/Doctor/etc. could talk/ask about how much time does the woman spend talking to / paying attention to movements/ thinking about this person. This would be more informative regarding the 'overall health' of the mother- and her baby. By asking - you would also convey the importance of 'paying attention/knowing your baby" She would likely answer with things like "oh he wakes me several times a night" or "everytime I eat I get 5 minutes of the wallops" or "god forbid I lay flat on my back - wow! that kid sure knows where my cervix is" And you could surely expand upon this/probe further if it was not enough info.

I think that's why maybe some "us" seem a little annoyed / or are 'giving you heat" about it. I personally can say that's why my reaction about it was strong-er, to me, counting reminds me of those hands-off /emotionally disconnected kind of "care" type of things.
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#35 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 10:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BirthingGoddesses View Post
I think that's why maybe some "us" seem a little annoyed / or are 'giving you heat" about it. I personally can say that's why my reaction about it was strong-er, to me, counting reminds me of those hands-off /emotionally disconnected kind of "care" type of things.
I understood the point of your post and understand also that I am in UC territory where midwives are superfluous so by definition I am not exactly part of the gang here in spite of my having the same philosophies as most of you. I seem to be digging myself out of a cold hole for having answered a flat question with a flat answer and feeling accused by inference of being "one of them".

Also the way I ascertain "data" about "fetal kick counts" is to simply ask the mother, "How is your baby?" at each visit (starting even before they feel it) and they tell me everything you gave me tips on drawing out from them rather than for them to pull out a project full of charts with markings for time blocks for us to review. They tell me their active times, sleepy times, what foods and drink they seem to react to, voices they get excited to hear, positions they dislike mom laying in, how they reacted to the stressful day/week/car accident, etc. I am hardly a cold, calculating data collector-midwife who doesn't provide sound explanations for care as suggested by your message.

Thanks for the lively discussion!
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#36 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 12:44 PM
 
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I am hardly a cold, calculating data collector-midwife who doesn't provide sound explanations for care as suggested by your message.

Thanks for the lively discussion!
I was not suggesting that you are "a cold, calculating data collector-midwife". I do not pretend to know you personally, nor will I pretend to know how you provide care.

My points were directed at/regarding any provider that communicates in this way, and what it is about this type of {lack of} care that is one of the many things that UC'ers have on their list of why not to have someone else involved in their care.

I thought and tried hard to make it clear that it was not personal- and that my words were directed at the problem with this type of care.

I re-read my post to see where my points could have been misconstrued -there is a lack of clarity in my words - in the statement " also conveying the importance of acknowledging the person you were gifted with stewardship over." Was regarding the mother over her baby - - not the provider over the mother.

If you would read it again with this difference of angle- I am sure it could be clear to you that it was not suggested in my message that "you-metro midwife" do anything. The use of the term "you" was meant toward the care provider in general.
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#37 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 01:39 PM
 
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Just wanting to get a feel for if I'm the world's laziest preggo or what..

I've never done those! Even with my twins, they wanted me to do it (heh? count for 20 seconds. there you go! 40 kicks!) and I just never did. Didn't with my youngest son either.

Am I truly missing out on something vital for baby's wellbeing?

oh, lordy, WTH?

of course i don't do this. barf barf barf. and yes, i do intend to sound indignant.

how horrid. can't a fetus have a little peace?
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#38 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 03:14 PM
 
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I didn't even bother with kick counts with my first baby while getting traditional prenatal care.
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#39 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 03:48 PM
 
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I don't have any deep reason for not doing them - just that *they don't work* for me. My kids were both very quiet in the womb and did not move alot. But that didn't stop them from being born extremely healthy! The kick counts are just not useful to me.

I do do regular "prenatals", where I measure fundal height, feel the position of the baby, take my BP, test my urine, and listen to the baby's heartbeat. I like these reassurances. If I were to be concerned about my baby's wellbeing, then I would listen to the heartbeat to reassure myself.
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#40 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 04:26 PM
 
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mmmmm.

Metromidwife~

What problems do kick counts/lack there of/ patterns etc indicate? I am truly interested. I know I have recently been reading Frye about fetal heartrate variability and how no variability indicates a problem. Fascinating! So I'm curious about kick counts and how it corresponds, since I totally agree noticing kicking patterns is less obtrusive than even listening to the heartbeat.

**I've not done kick-counts for any of my pregnancies. My first didn't really move much, and it just never occurred to me to worry about it. And my next two never stopped moving.**

treehugger.gif Kat- mama to 6 little trees
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#41 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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you got me interested Rajahkat, so I'm studying this. Here are some that I've preliminarily found.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...p?newsid=61744
http://www.nature.com/jp/journal/v22.../7210692a.html
(I think the above is absolutely tragic in that despite intervention and emergency c-section, the baby still died. )
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#42 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 07:13 PM
 
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Metromidwife you pain a lovely scene on doing kick counts (the dim lighting, meditation etc.). However, if a mama feels inclined to do a kick count I'm betting it's safe to say she's doing it out panic/worry. She's not about to get calm and relaxed. With D I had a quiet moment and was told to do a kick count. I was worried...what if? this and what if? that. It was not a peaceful moment. The picture you create is more in tune with a mama who wants a quiet moment to herself, who has a chance to relax and just take it all in. What does a kick count "diagnose"/ A lack of fetal movement. Heck call in and they'll tell you to do a kick count, then drink some juice/eat fruit, do ANOTHER kick count and then they'll talk about you coming in. They can't tell anything off of it. DD, even in her active moments, never qualified as anything in a kick count.

Give more**Expect Less
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#43 of 45 Old 03-05-2007, 08:52 PM
 
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#44 of 45 Old 03-07-2007, 01:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by OtherMother'n'Madre View Post
Metromidwife you pain a lovely scene on doing kick counts (the dim lighting, meditation etc.). However, if a mama feels inclined to do a kick count I'm betting it's safe to say she's doing it out panic/worry. She's not about to get calm and relaxed. With D I had a quiet moment and was told to do a kick count. I was worried...what if? this and what if? that. It was not a peaceful moment. The picture you create is more in tune with a mama who wants a quiet moment to herself, who has a chance to relax and just take it all in. What does a kick count "diagnose"/ A lack of fetal movement. Heck call in and they'll tell you to do a kick count, then drink some juice/eat fruit, do ANOTHER kick count and then they'll talk about you coming in. They can't tell anything off of it. DD, even in her active moments, never qualified as anything in a kick count.
Okay so here is my deal... thingy... (vocab is limited lol): As a pregnant woman I didn't appreciate the alarmist point of view when it came to ways I was supposed to be responsible for myself and baby. So as a midwife I do unto others as it were. I always present "it" and the "it" being getting to know the baby inside and the changing body of mom as normal, not something to take note of when something is seemingly wrong. So I think when the women I work with come to their appointment saying, "You know, my baby has started to change its movement patterns..." or "I noticed the movements my baby has have stopped being so pokey and more rolling, I think it's gaining weight and growing!" So while this can fall into the "kick count" category it's not a calculated kick count. I think since I present as part of overall wellness it's part of normal and I've never heard, "I was worried! I didn't feel it move so I sat and did a kick count!" Instead I might hear, "Over the last week I was really busy and realized I hadn't taken the time out to be with my baby or noticed it moving all that much. I sat down alone and what do you know? He let me know he was glad I sat down by moving and poking me in the ribs to show his enjoyment."

Of course once a woman gets to know the movements of her baby and how they change when they are absent for a length of time uncomfortable to her one could move and do a "kick count" and trying to stimulate her baby by external massage, juice, or some other recommendation as you mentioned.

As far as what does it diagnose? It's not a diagnostic tool but it could be symptomatic of any number of maternal or fetal problems (from high blood pressure to placental insufficiency for example). The point I have been trying to make and feeling I've been failing miserably at is I believe it's something that can just provide positive reassurance for the mother. It's not some sneaky way at testing compliancy or the suseptibility to the practitioner's whim (but hey, that's me , not the rest of the world).
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#45 of 45 Old 03-08-2007, 10:53 PM
 
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I've never done kick counts, nor was it suggested to me by either of my midwives. I agree with those who regard it as a clinical activity, and clinical things don't have a place in my pregnancies unless I sense there is a problem or have a specific concern.

I also didn't consciously note when the baby was normally active or asleep or whatever and don't regard doing so routinely as beneficial. On a subconscious level of course I was fully aware of what my baby was doing just as I'm aware, without having to think about it, when something is "off" in my body, or what movements and sounds are normal coming from my children during the night, etc.

I'm also skeptical as to how useful it is in indicating problems. Maybe in a very controlled clinical setting, but I can easily see it being unnecessarily anxiety-producing if just done casually and randomly, especially given that all babies and uterine environments are different.

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of course i don't do this. barf barf barf. and yes, i do intend to sound indignant.
I'm sorry, this just made me laugh. Fondly.
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