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#31 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 09:51 AM
 
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"I love reading books by midwives that talk about the midwife role, and then realizing "now why cant i just put my hand down there and do that myself?" or "that was so unnecessary... she should leave momma alone" etc."

Yeah, ITA. Have any of you read holistic midwifery by Anne Frye (3 volumes, i think)? You might like it. It is specifically a midwifery text for DEM, so probably more anatomy & physiology than you will EVER want to know. And, this is gossipy, but my dh called her on the phone and he said she came across like she was really full of herself. I was like "oh no! I really like her book! Dont' say it! lalalalal(hands over ears)

Anyway, she stresses that the mother's intuition is one of the midwife's biggest clues into how the pregnancy is progressing, and even if you find yourself in a situation that from the outside indicates trouble (nonreassuring FHT or the like) if the mother feels everything is fine, you go with the mother.

I think things are spelled out clearly for the UC mama who wants a more clinical book while retaining a sense of humanity.

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#32 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 10:11 AM
 
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Have any of you read holistic midwifery by Anne Frye (3 volumes, i think)? You might like it. It is specifically a midwifery text for DEM, so probably more anatomy & physiology than you will EVER want to know.
--- wow you have read them straight through first volume I read and shelved--decided her books are for reference---- I am impressed you have read all 3.
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#33 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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fourlittlebirds I can agree with all the criticism you have said-- there really isn't any simple and clear birth text out there--- the ones you have mentioned are all dated--
Yes, they are! But for some reason they seem to be the most easily accessible. Maybe because all the midwives have purged them out of their collections. I know I got all my mine used, or they were given to me. I am really past feeling a need to learn about the technicalities of birth, but I am really interested in what other technical texts are out there, and how they rate in accuracy and irritation level from a UC perspective. There's Anne Frye's Holistic Midwifery -- has anyone read that? Of course, no midwifery text is going to be ideal for a UCer. But there has got to be something out there better than Heart & Hands!

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I also think that she talks about or else in the birth stories are the "emotional trips" some people need to straighten up--I'll look at it and see if I find that part it is the Gestalt method stuff of the era, who wants that sort of blaming harsh interaction in labor?
Exactly. . Of what little I know of Gestalt theory, it makes some sense to me, I just cringe at the old tired assumptions that dysfunctional labor is always or usually because the mother has emotional issues of her own to work through. It's good to be aware of psychological/emotional issues in oneself. But to imply that a woman is having a long pushing phase (for instance) because she's not ready to be a mother when the real reason is almost surely really a mechnical one -- in other words, she's wearing herself out trying to make it happen rather than just waiting for it to happen -- these sorts of things drive me batty. I had a long pushing phase with my first and I guess I could have taken to heart some persons' assumption that I was a "tense, controlling type who couldn't let go" (as, for instance, Elizabeth Davis talks about) but luckily I figured out that it only had to do with the fact that I was on my back, pushing voluntarily to coaching, with three people peering and prodding at my privates. Once I was rid of those "issues", my babies were able to traverse the birth canal in minutes.

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Heart and Hands has some nice illustrations--- or at least the original edition does- the picture of where the baby is I would love to see a series like that with all the positions--
H&H does have beautiful illustrations. My favorites actually are in Spiritual Midwifery. But I wonder, is there a book that has illustrations of a uterus/pelvis in the upright position?
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#34 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 10:19 AM
 
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In a health-care system such as ours, where professionalism all to often breeds complacent self-interest,
I will say a big YEAH THAT, but. . .
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underground movements repeatedly develop, comprised of both cutting-edge innovators and the lunatic fringe
I always kinda felt the cutting edge innovators WERE largely the lunatic fringe.

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#35 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 10:24 AM
 
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I was coming back to type out, so thankyou CHristyC. The part I don't like about it?



And just who is that "lunatic fringe"?
That's what I have been wondering. Unless it's the Zion birthers I once heard a few stories about, where they allegedly (I could be remembering wrong) "do nothing" and "wait for God to intervene" if something goes wrong on an extreme level. Since it seems to go against the grain of instinct (at least my own anyways) to not be rubbing a back, sucking out snot or god forbid having to do cpr... going against or not listening to instinct is not identifiable with UC as I know it at all.

That was one murky sentence and I need more coffee
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#36 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Jenlaana
I think every aspect of life has a "lunatic fringe".
Yeah, but she didn't put hers in quotes. It leaves me wondering too, who among us is she pegging as lunatics? Hm.

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The trend toward unassisted birth is such a movement, ultimately representing dissatisfaction with the available maternity-care options. (Elizabeth Davis)
It's true that the choice to UC is often initiated by dissatisfaction with the available options. Ultimately, though, the conscious "movement" (as distinct from those individuals who make the choice solely out of desperation) is about something that exists independently of its reaction against another thing, for its own reasons. To say that UC is a reaction to the lack of decent maternity care is to suggest that maternity care is the default and that decent maternity care would solve the problem of UC. Whereas I see UC as the default and regard the level of quality of maternity care as irrelevant to my choice.
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#37 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 11:21 AM
 
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To say that UC is a reaction to the lack of decent maternity care is to suggest that maternity care is the default and that decent maternity care would solve the problem of UC. Whereas I see UC as the default and regard the level of quality of maternity care as irrelevant to my choice.
It's almost as if she thinks that UC would go away with the right care available, but for a lot of UCers, it has nothing to do with caregivers.

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#38 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 12:12 PM
 
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I have not read Holistic Midwifery but would love to - isn't it insanely expensive? I actually like to read the really technical stuff, but alot of those books are beyond my budget. I've never tried to get them through the library. I have one Maternity Nursing textbook I found in Goodwill, and I enjoy looking at the pelvises and stuff....

I found a good *pregnancy* book - "The Natural Pregnancy Book". She includes "self care" in her discussion of prenatal care and is respectful of the choice (she says she used self care with her pregnancies). This book talks alot about instincts and UC friendly ideas. Lot's of good herbal information (and different from Weed). I really wish she would write a book on childbirth.

As for herbals - something about the format of Weed's book makes me imagine all kinds of symptoms. I really have to watch what books I read; I guess I'm pretty suggestable.
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#39 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 12:13 PM
 
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I enjoy Kitzinger's books - though her tone can be off putting at times. Anybody read any of Penny Simkins books?
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#40 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 01:38 PM
 
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Holistic Midwifery Vol. 1 is around $60 new (though you can sometimes find it used for less). Vol. 2 is $130 new (used I have only ever seen it as low as $100!). Vol. 3 is not yet published/finished. It has taken her YEARS to write Volume 2 (I think 10?), so who knows how long Vol. 3 will take. :

Vol. 1 is about prenatal care, etc.
Vol. 2 is about labor, birth and immediate postpartum (and is an enormous text!)
Vol. 3 will be about everything postpartum

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#41 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 01:52 PM
 
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Fourlittlebirds, had to bring this up, since the word "fringe" was used. I was reading through some of your UC birth blog and this popped out at me from one of your entries in January...

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3. The numbers have grown in the past couple of years, but realistically, without a major cultural paradigm shift, this is always going to be a very fringe choice.

Missionary, birth-worker, midwifery student
Mama to love.gif DD (9yr), DS luxlove.gif (3yr), & 2twins.gif UC twin DDs (5yr)

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#42 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 02:54 PM
 
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"--- wow you have read them straight through first volume I read and shelved--decided her books are for reference---- I am impressed you have read all 3."

Good Lord, no. I've only read the first. I"m trying to get my hands on diagnostic tests hence my dh's call to the author but it's in the process of revision as I understand it. So #2 & #3 I have not read. I am "in the works"

Kat

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#43 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 03:11 PM
 
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Isn't it the word "lunatic" that is more bothersome than the word "fringe"? UC is definately "fringe", but I wouldn't want to be lumped in with lunatics :-)
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#44 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 03:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by christyc View Post
Here is the UC mention in the new preface to H and H:

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Originally Posted by ; that is, not posted by, but authored by, Elizabeth Davis, Linda Harrison, and Suzanne Arms
In a health-care system such as ours, where professionalism all too often breeds complacent self-interest, underground movements repeatedly develop, comprised of both cutting-edge innovators and the lunatic fringe. The trend toward unassisted birth is such a movement, ultimately representing dissatisfaction with the available maternity-care options.
I am not very much offended by the reference to a lunatic fringe, since I think the Born-In-Zion people qualify, as well as all those who are committed to go against their instinct to seek help in an actual crisis. I think it should be made clear, though, that Born In Zion (Home in Zion) and similar belief systems did not arise from the UC movement, but are completely separate religious movements whose practices happen to include absolutely unassisted birth (also unassisted broken bones, unassisted ruptured appendices, and unassisted dental problems). The UC movement promotes unassisted normalcy (with the stipulation that variations such as breech and multiples are normal), while the lunatic fringe, in my view, would be those who also promote unassisted abnormality. And I don't think that unassisted abnormality should really be considered a part of the UC movement.

I would also take issue with the idea that we would all come flocking for maternity care if only the mainstream medical establishment were not so asinine. I mean, it is asinine, it doesn't need to be, and that is a problem. But if that problem were fixed, we would still be left with the problem that normal birth is no more a process to be observed than is normal sex.

Unless what they are actually saying is that UC'ers would take advantage of midwives' services if only they would not insist on being present for birth unless called to help with a problem (a pattern of service radically removed from midwives' current mode of practice). I think the majority of UC ladies (though still not all of us) would team up with a midwife for 'backup' services only. I wish that were the change in services suggested in this excerpt, but I don't think it is.
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#45 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 03:23 PM
 
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request the books at your library-- when I was reading the books I did I just had bibliographies and other reading lists as it turns out great librarians too -- they bought several books and I interlibrary loaned the rest--- Actually I have maybe the very fist ed of the lab book - it's cover is like construction paper and is maybe 80 pages long---
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#46 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 04:06 PM
 
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I heard a lot of great things about Holistic Midwifery, as a reference material. I wish I had the money to buy them. Unfortunately after $150 on books on Amazon last pregnancy, my husband very sweetly suggested I use the internet available resources more and the credit card less.
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#47 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 05:24 PM
 
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As much as I do love Anne Frye's books and I want to read the first one (I have the second one) I have to say that there's a bunch of pretty unscientific stuff in there and stuff with out of date science behind it (which makes sense if it took so long to write). That may or may not affect your opinion of the book, but I found myself using Frye as initial reference, but I would double check her using free, reliable, and up to date sources after. The book has helped me learn a lot, but is by no means a necessary edition to a home library (you can get as much thinkingoutside the box for initial reference here to spur your learning)

~laura
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