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#1 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm starting this thread as a spin-off from Jessjoy's thread about maybe choosing a midwife next time around...because I want to discuss some of the issues that came up, without causing Jessjoy any disrespect or invalidation.

I didn't know there were so many mamas that felt concerned or.....what's the word, less than supported in the UC forum. I'd like to make that better.

From my perspective, there is an underlying assumption that birth for *me* and for other women like me who desire a UC, is that things will work out best for us if we are left alone. Not that we can be in control of everything, but that being without interference & intervention from birth professionals is our optimal way to birth. I guess that's why we have the UC forum at all, right? So we can support each other and talk & know that there are other women out there in the masses of those who birth with birth attendants, who choose UC. It's part of what differentiates us from the category of Homebirth, Birth Professionals, VBAC, & Birth Stories.

But how to DO that without offending those who changed their minds about UC, or those who transferred, or those who want attended births? The only way I can imagine doing that, is by doing what I would do if I had a good friend sitting right here with me who had experienced a problematic birth...just give her a hug, listen to her, and offer my friendship.

Still, I want to be able to discuss UC frankly, without having to give disclaimers every step of the way.

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#2 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 09:34 PM
 
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i agree with greenlee on everything she said. Dont have answers to the questions at the moment. But wanted to say, i'm here, and feel as you do

wife to my awesome DH, homeschooling, unassisted birthing, food growing, life loving mama to 5 crazy monkeys. :
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#3 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 10:37 PM
 
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I wondered when this thread would appear. I knew that her thread could possibly cause some feelings to be hurt and/or not validated.

I've often wondered this myself. I transferrred with DD and as a result did not com back in here until I became pregnant again. It's only recently that I have started posting often (and due to circumstance less often ).

I soooo wish discussions we had here did not always have to have some sort of disclaimer....whether it be about a person, or legit medical event etc. I am so tired of having to say "yes I know BUT as a ucer...".

Hmmm....off to ponder this some more.

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#4 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 10:59 PM
 
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I completely agree, MITF.

I have never seen what I would consider rude or disrespectful comments directed at someone because they transfered or chose to have a mw attend their birth or whatever the situation. I HAVE seen lots of accusations of being insensitive, but I've never understood what they were talking about. I've only been on MDC a year, so maybe it was different before? :

I also see a lot of having to defend the choice to UC~ on the UC forum! This is what I don't get. This is where I want to come to discuss UC openly and not tiptoe around. Obviously no one should ever be rude, and UC is not for everyone. It is for me, and I assume by the title of the forum, it is for the other women here. There are all kinds of offshoots of that, such as changing minds at the last minute, or transfers, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I do not like feeling as if I have to censor myself, in the UC forum. I generally just do not post if I feel as if there is any possible way my thoughts would be interpreted as offensive. I really don't want to upset people. I would just like to be open and honest.
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#5 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 11:10 PM
 
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It's interesting that we talk so much about baggage from previous attended births without necessarily paying much attention to the baggage incurred from attempted UCs.

Obviously though, it's out there! I honestly just don't know how to be MORE supportive of women who planned a UC and for whatever reason didn't get it.

I personally am pretty annoyed by some things....I don't think I'm quite ready to hash it all out yet though.....I'll have to think about it more, and maybe WHY it annoys me before I put my foot in my mouth and say something I regret~ it's been known to happen.

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#6 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 11:13 PM
 
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Well, I'm tiptoe-ing here by mentioning the other thread, but I'm talking specifically about MY post.

I was one of the first to respong and my initial instinct to reply with my story how with dd3 I wanted a UC, it didn't happen, and I really regret.

That could TOTALLY be viewed as unsupportive and telling her she should have a UC. (I'm sorry!!!)

BUT, if you knew me IRL you would find me soooooo unlikely a person for UC activism, especially to random pregnant women. I have no desire to tell a woman what to do and STRONGLY believe in a woman's own personal evolution to whatever that may be.

So much just "comes out" online in a way you don't mean.

I think the UC forum is a great place to get info and support for UC's. But what is the overall purpose of the forum?

Would discussion about women's rights and support and praise for a woman's decision to NOT UC be better suited for a more general audience than that UC forum?

Or, since the medical community doesn't recognize INTUTION, and intuition is a foundation for UC, should should most/all discussions of a woman's intuion-based choices be discussed here?

I think there's not really a line, but I'd certainly like to see this forum stay based on info and support for UC. It would also be great if there was a sub-forum for UC activism. And also a sub-forum for those on the fence about UC. But then it all gets grey right there and I'm just rambling and back to nothing I guess.
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#7 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 11:24 PM
 
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I am annoyed by what I perceive as the expressed sentiment that I as a UCer do not acknowledge that there are circumstances that genuinely require medical assistance.

I do acknowledge there are circumstances that genuinely require medical assistance.

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#8 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 11:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rajahkat View Post
I am annoyed by what I perceive as the expressed sentiment that I as a UCer do not acknowledge that there are circumstances that genuinely require medical assistance.

I do acknowledge there are circumstances that genuinely require medical assistance.
BINGO! I'm annoyed that I have to voice that, here in the UC forum, whenever "touchy" topics are discussed.

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#9 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 11:40 PM
 
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I think it's great that this is brought up. I myself had wondered how I'd be perceived being on the fence. So far so good. It seems that UC mamas want to speak frank about UC, but other mamas don't want to feel judged. Is this possible. Like another poster said things come out online that might not IRL. I hope that this can be a great place for support as I go through my journey of deciding for sure to have an UC or a midwife attended VBA2C.
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#10 of 44 Old 05-02-2007, 11:54 PM
 
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I am annoyed by what I perceive as the expressed sentiment that I as a UCer do not acknowledge that there are circumstances that genuinely require medical assistance.

I do acknowledge there are circumstances that genuinely require medical assistance.

I acknowledge this as well. Its been my experience that most women on this forum do, too. Maybe I'm missing something~ it's certainly possible. I know that natural options and alternative ways of looking at complications are generally what are discussed first, but I personally have never read posts where the need for intervention was dismissed in any and all situations.
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#11 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 12:48 AM
 
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I acknowledge this as well. Its been my experience that most women on this forum do, too. Maybe I'm missing something~ it's certainly possible. I know that natural options and alternative ways of looking at complications are generally what are discussed first, but I personally have never read posts where the need for intervention was dismissed in any and all situations.
I agree.

I'm fairly new here but the mood to me seems very supportive, even if interventions become necessary during a UC.

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#12 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 10:46 AM
 
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I DREAMT about this last night. And I wanted to add something else. It is important to remember that each person is coming from a unique spiritual perspective, each has her own view of reality, if you will.

So if a mother believes something like every birth will go off with no problem if given enough time, or not observed, or in a state of complete trust, or without any fear, then it can be true FOR HER without being a reflection on anyone else or a condemnation of another person's birth experience. It's HER reality!

This is very different (at least to me) than saying directly to someone that "Your birth would have been fine if you had just..xyz" THAT is insulting, and THAT I have very rarely seen, especially here. And frankly, I"M INSULTED by the statements that were made to the contrary! If you have issues with someone and what she said about your birth, then take it up with HER. Don't come here and make blanket statements about generalized feelings and underlying assumptions.

I am upset by what I perceive to be the belittling nature of some of the statements made. If a woman DOES hold the belief that she has control of her reality, then I find it just as offensive that anyone would feel it was okay to preach the need for humility. Why would it be so important to convince her otherwise? It's like messing with peoples religion, IMO

That being said, I don't personally feel that way, I tend to lean a bit more towards fate. But I know my husband does. He is very much of the mindset that you make your own reality. Hmmmm, some how we manage to get along just fine:

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#13 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 11:43 AM
 
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I agree with everything mama in the forest said, and I think she put it beautifully.

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This is very different (at least to me) than saying directly to someone that "Your birth would have been fine if you had just..xyz" THAT is insulting, and THAT I have very rarely seen, especially here. And frankly, I"M INSULTED by the statements that were made to the contrary! If you have issues with someone and what she said about your birth, then take it up with HER. Don't come here and make blanket statements about generalized feelings and underlying assumptions.
The exact kind of comment you're talking about happened to me, here in the UC forum, and I have seen it occasionally happen to others too. I'm glad I waited six months to post my birth story so that I had really started processing and working through it and the comments didn't affect me the way they would have a week after giving birth. I wasn't insulted or offended, but comments of that nature always feel unsupportive and critical. I chose to ignore it, but it of course shaped my feelings of support and safety in this forum.

I think this is a wonderful place. I don't take any issue with mamas who insist that, for them, just knowing they'll have a perfect, intervention-free birth makes it manifest. But at the same time, I should be allowed to share my perspective, too - that sometimes, even when you do everything "right" and are completely uninhibited and unafraid, things might not work out. It's not an idea based on a personal religion, but it is based in personal experience and it's important to me to talk with other UC mamas, especially those planning UCs, so they have access to information that I would have found incredibly helpful prior to my UC. I think that a lot of mamas, especially FTMs who come here, are (for very good reason) swept away by the idea of UC and do not always have realistic expectations or understanding of birth. I don't expect everyone else to make disclaimers to satisfy me, but I just want to be able to add my own perspective, too. A lot of my searching regarding UC was hearing other mamas' experiences and stories because I hadn't yet had a birth of my own. If every mama who had a UC/transfer felt she couldn't discuss or post about what she learned from her experience because doing so would be unsupportive of UC, then we do a great disservice to mamas who come here looking for wisdom and experience. That includes the wisdom of "failure." (I do not consider my birth a failure, which is why it's in quotes, but it was not a UC.)

I also think almost everyone here agrees that medical complications can and do arise, even when everyone's healthy etc. It shouldn't be necessary to repeat that in every post. However, I always add a disclaimer to my posts on the subject, and state that my experience was not the norm, because I recognize that it was not, and I would not want to give the impression that an 8+ hour second stage is normal.

I am very sorry to read that mamas feel there isn't support here for UC mamas. I don't feel that way, and I would be very disappointed if I did. I'm still leaning 70% UC for next time, but I don't know because I'm not pregnant yet, and I don't think I can make that decision when removed from the pregnancy.

I hope that this forum is a place where we can offer each other support, both for successful UCs and for UC transfers and other emergencies, and for UPs, without either tiptoeing too delicately or having to place disclaimers everywhere.

I guess this thread also makes me wonder if I'm not considered a UC'er by other UC'ers here because I ended up transferring. I do consider myself a UC'er; I think it's an entire mindset, a way of thinking about birth, and involves physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual preparation fundamentally different from an attended birth. I wouldn't ever say I had a UC, but I do consider myself a UC'er. Especially since I feel so drawn towards it and feel that it's more likely than not that I'll choose to UC next time.

But I hope to that I can share my insecurities, uncertainties, and thought processes here. Wondering about weighing important factors, thinking about the past birth, and seeking the thoughtful input of others who have made a similar decision.

I am deeply sorry that UC mamas felt attacked or unsupported because of the other thread. I felt that I had been alone in my feelings for over a year, and when the topic arose, it was a great relief to find someone else had sensed the same impression. I don't want to see anyone change their behavior; if I was angry or offended I would have said something a long time ago. It just made it more difficult to share freely, to "admit" to transfer because it opened me up to criticism that I was not interested in hearing, but needing support dearly. To be fair, I have seen other transfer stories where everyone was nothing but supportive, and with only a few exceptions, people were very supportive of me too.

I really don't think anyone should censor themselves or make broad disclaimers anytime they talk about the safety of UC, the ability of the body to birth beautifully when unattended, etc. And while acknowledging all of those things, because I do believe in them deeply, I have the same need to add my own thoughts about UC, and give the perspective that I wish I had received when I was deciding to UC. It would not have changed my decision, but it would have helped me when I needed it.



I really care about the UC community here. I think next time if an issue like this comes up (i.e., perceived criticism of imperfect births/mamas), I will either keep to myself, as I have in the past, or take it to PM to avoid seeming unsupportive of all the UC mamas in this forum.

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#14 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 12:42 PM
 
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I am upset by what I perceive to be the belittling nature of some of the statements made. If a woman DOES hold the belief that she has control of her reality, then I find it just as offensive that anyone would feel it was okay to preach the need for humility. Why would it be so important to convince her otherwise? It's like messing with peoples religion, IMO
I find this a tad offensive because I think I know what you are referring too - and I was never preaching. I was sharing *my* own personal experience - I never tried to convince others of anything, only to express that from my own personal spiritual journey I have found this belief to be false and detrimental to my well being. *My* experience is just as valid and important as *yours*.

I don't want to see us have to give disclaimers all the way either. But I think that women who feel the same way should be allowed to share their experiences, feelings and thoughts with one another and not be made to feel that they must keep their feelings to themselves when they do not agree with the consensus.
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#15 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 12:46 PM
 
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I wasn't insulted or offended, but comments of that nature always feel unsupportive and critical. I chose to ignore it, but it of course shaped my feelings of support and safety in this forum.

I think this is a wonderful place. I don't take any issue with mamas who insist that, for them, just knowing they'll have a perfect, intervention-free birth makes it manifest. But at the same time, I should be allowed to share my perspective, too - that sometimes, even when you do everything "right" and are completely uninhibited and unafraid, things might not work out. It's not an idea based on a personal religion, but it is based in personal experience and it's important to me to talk with other UC mamas, especially those planning UCs, so they have access to information that I would have found incredibly helpful prior to my UC.

: My thoughts exactly.
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#16 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 12:56 PM
 
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"But at the same time, I should be allowed to share my perspective, too - that sometimes, even when you do everything "right" and are completely uninhibited and unafraid, things might not work out."

Of course. It nevers bothers me that women share their transfer stories. I'm often disappointed FOR them, but never IN them. It saddens me that mamas feel shame or guilt or are afraid to come back here to share their stories. I really, honestly, don't get it. Yeah, there is always the flukey who is overly accusational, but to my eye, she rarely sticks around in the forum. The women who are HERE regularly are overwhelmingly supportive.....at least I think so.

I would really want to hear from women who felt that I had personally been unsupportive towards them after their transfer. At worst I don't say anything (and I feel badly about that too!) simply because I don't know what to say.

Maybe the women who feel unsupported could better explain the feeling. I would love to understand. Sometimes I feel as though after a transfer the mother comes back gung-ho on making sure we know how necessary it was. Frankly, I don't give a hoot if a mama's transfer was medically necessary or not. I think as long as SHE is convinced it was necessary, medically or otherwise, then that should be enough for all parties involved, right? And if she knows it was the best decision for her to make, and is secure in the decision, then why does she CARE what I or anyone else think?


"especially those planning UCs, so they have access to information that I would have found incredibly helpful prior to my UC."

Do you mean you never read a transfer story the entire time you were pregnant and planning a UC? WOW! It must have been a good run then. It seems to me there is often a pattern, a string of babies born UC, no problems, then a string of transfers.

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#17 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 12:57 PM
 
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I think that sometimes, women might feel unsupported because they are using what some of us might consider to be "non-legitimate" reasons for not UC'ing, transferring, choosing an assisted birth, etc.
sort of like when a women says she doesbn't want to BF because "it will make her boobs sag"....i think pretty mich everyone here would jump on her for using such a stupid excuse for not BF'ing, and try to overload her with the 213, 654, 765 reasons why her choice is a porr one. I think we get that a lot on the UC forum...and then, our "honest advice" seems unsupportive, because it is...well, negative.
but, negative does not necesarily mean unsupportive!!! If someone posts on a public forum, and asks for advice, suggestions, etc, and then gets mad because the advice is not what she WANTED to hear....well, that is not the people who replied's fault!!! As long as they posted in a respectful manner, of course. It is possible to disagree with someone...or point out why you think they are making a poor choice.....or not considering all the facts.....or whatever..etc, etc, etc....without being rude. BUT..I think that a lot of times, any disgreement or critical commentary, can be interpreted as unsupportive, or mean, or whatever.



Just some thoughts.

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#18 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 01:08 PM
 
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"not be made to feel that they must keep their feelings to themselves when they do not agree with the consensus"

And I think it's the perception that there is a "consensus" that leads to the us against them mentality. I don't find there to be a consensus here. We don't even agree on what UC is! Heck, I want to BE a midwife and that's about as ANTI-UC as you can get!

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#19 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 01:09 PM
 
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what some of us might consider to be "non-legitimate" reasons for not UC'ing, transferring, choosing an assisted birth, etc.
Case in point - what gives you the right to decide if a woman has made a legitimate choice?

I much prefer the attitude rajahkat expressed - as long as the woman feels she made the right choice, then that's what matters. That *is* what matters! I don't want to come back and tell my story of my transport to convince people that what I did was *right* and others should make my choice. I do think it was right for me - but I'm not happy about everything I chose to do. I just want to share my experiences because I enjoyed support through my pregnancy and I just wanted to share what I've learned. I don't share my experiences because I'm looking for others opinions about it - unless I *ask*. I read lot's of UC stories where I think "I wouldn't do it that way." But I don't tell people that unless they ask!
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#20 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 02:05 PM
 
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But at the same time, I should be allowed to share my perspective, too - that sometimes, even when you do everything "right" and are completely uninhibited and unafraid, things might not work out. It's not an idea based on a personal religion, but it is based in personal experience and it's important to me to talk with other UC mamas, especially those planning UCs, so they have access to information that I would have found incredibly helpful prior to my UC. I think that a lot of mamas, especially FTMs who come here, are (for very good reason) swept away by the idea of UC and do not always have realistic expectations or understanding of birth. I don't expect everyone else to make disclaimers to satisfy me, but I just want to be able to add my own perspective, too. A lot of my searching regarding UC was hearing other mamas' experiences and stories because I hadn't yet had a birth of my own. If every mama who had a UC/transfer felt she couldn't discuss or post about what she learned from her experience because doing so would be unsupportive of UC, then we do a great disservice to mamas who come here looking for wisdom and experience.
I completely agree with everything you're saying here (and appreciate the thoughtfulness in the rest of your post ) but I'm still perplexed. Because (I'm assuming) you wouldn't bring up these issues if you didn't consider them to be issues. That is: do you really feel you haven't been allowed to share your perspective? That people really are saying that if you've done everything "right" you're guaranteed a desired outcome? That "failed" UC stories are not welcome here? That the general concensus is that to discuss possible negatives to UC is to not be supportive of UC?

I really, really hope that new people coming here don't assume *any* of this. It's simply not true of us as a group as a whole, applying possibly only to a very small minority of individuals who tend that way. A while back -- maybe a year -- there was a person who was posting here a lot that was very dogmatic and, well, she didn't last long, she got a lot of flack for that and was eventually banned. And there *are* UC spaces on the internet that are generally dogmatic. We are different here. We believe very strongly that there is great value in UC principles, but we don't proselytize. We don't think our way is the only valid way, or that there is nothing to be learned from births that are less than full-on UCs. But we will question and analyze and conjecture, especially when questions are asked or advice asked for, and sometimes it's not what people want and it's not pleasant for them. So it's really important to understand that while all stories are welcome here, if the writer does not want certain kinds of responses, she *must* specify "Support only" or "No critical feedback" or something of the kind.
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I hope that this forum is a place where we can offer each other support, both for successful UCs and for UC transfers and other emergencies, and for UPs, without either tiptoeing too delicately or having to place disclaimers everywhere. [...]

But I hope to that I can share my insecurities, uncertainties, and thought processes here. Wondering about weighing important factors, thinking about the past birth, and seeking the thoughtful input of others who have made a similar decision.
I think we'd all agree that that's exactly what the UC forum is for.

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It just made it more difficult to share freely, to "admit" to transfer because it opened me up to criticism that I was not interested in hearing, but needing support dearly. To be fair, I have seen other transfer stories where everyone was nothing but supportive, and with only a few exceptions, people were very supportive of me too.
I understand this totally, and you're right, the possibility of someone commenting negatively *does* make it difficult to share freely. But unfortunately, this just isn't something we can control. We can't make this a totally safe space; things that hurt or offend or are unsupportive *are* occasionally going to get written. It's just the unpleasant reality of a public forum. But in general, like you alluded to, people here attempt as much as possible to be gentle and understanding. This is a much safer place than anywhere else I can think of on the internet.
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#21 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 02:23 PM
 
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negative does not necesarily mean unsupportive!

I think this is a good point. But I think criticizing, or even attempting to delicately ask questions about the mother's choices right after a birth is probably too much for her to handle. She's got a lot to process and unless she's thrilled with how things turned out....well, she's PROBABLY not in any sort of mood to discuss it.

I think personally I just don't tend to comment on a person's birth story. Other than to offer congratulations.

I think that if women want to discuss "what went wrong" or what could be done differently, or how she is disappointed in the experience, then she'll come around to it eventually when she's more open to hearing other people's opinions and ideas.

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#22 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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nevermind.

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#23 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 06:26 PM
 
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[QUOTE=2bluefish;8023101]Case in point - what gives you the right to decide if a woman has made a legitimate choice?

QUOTE]

My point is that sometimes women ASK for this type of advice, and then get testy when they don't like the answer......sort of like when a woman asks if her butt looks big in these jeans...some women want an honest response, and some women want you to reply quickly and heartily "no, of course not" regardless of what they actually look like.

If someone comes on here and says "blah, blah......what should I do?" or "blah blah....is this the right choice?" then when posters reply and give their honest opinion, and some of it is not what the OP wants to hear, and the OP gets all ticked, I think that's just silly. If you don't want honest advice.....don't ask!
now, when people make unsolicited remarks, or remarks in direct oppostiion to what a OP has specifically asked them NOT to make...I think that is wrong.
Like if someone says "I'm an not planning a UC, but would like to do some of my prenatal care myself, can you guys help me learn about how to do that?" and then people jump in telling the person why she should UC instead of giving her the help she requested, that is wrong. Or if someone writes their birthstory to share, and gerts jumped on with a bunch or questions and critiques (unless she asked for it) I think that';s in poor taste as well.

But if you ASK for opinions/advice/critiques.......don't get your panties in a bunch if you get some negative replies. And keep in mind you are asking your question on a UC BOARD. If you want a regualr homebirth perspective, or mainstream hosp birth perspective...there are places you can go to get that!!!

CPST
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#24 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 06:26 PM
 
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I don't have alot of time for the discussion, because my husband had a horseback riding accident, and I have been busy caring for him for the past day an a half. I have been thinking about this though. And I wanted to express this thought - if this was *just* a forum for information exchange, then I would say "yes" anyone who shares anything should be comfortable knowing that anyone else can say anything else they want to positive, negative or neutral in response. But I think what *I'm* trying to express is that the forum is more than that for me - and I think for others - it's a place to find support and encouragement, and connect with other people. I think that looking for a greater connection is what causes us to sometimes be disappointed. The medium is imperfect, but it's the best we've got. I would love to sit down and and have a face to face meet up - that would be awesome!

As rajahkat explained, after a birth - even a good birth, a woman is trying to find a frame of reference for that experience - and if she feels that there is a possibility of negative commentary, she may not feel safe sharing at that time. As 4littlebirds said, I don't think there is anything anyone can do about preventing others from saying untimely things. As I tried to express in the other thread, I don't know that I'm even asking anyone to do anything or change anything. I was just looking for a connection with other women who felt the same protective way about their birth stories.

My own births have been deeply spiritual experiences through which I've learned a number of valuable life lessons. They were successful, autonomous births deeply influenced by the UC movement, even if they weren't UCs. And I do feel protective of my stories.

I'm sorry that some of my comments seemed to have been taken personally. I was only saying that I sometimes see a collective thought process that doesn't ring true to my life experience. That doesn't mean that any one person is to fault for creating that impression. I found it kind of sweet and puzzling that those whose posts often resonate with me the most are the ones who felt offended!
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#25 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 06:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post
My point is that sometimes women ASK for this type of advice, and then get testy when they don't like the answer......sort of like when a woman asks if her butt looks big in these jeans...
I can certainly see that point.
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#26 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 07:50 PM
 
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Do you mean you never read a transfer story the entire time you were pregnant and planning a UC? WOW! It must have been a good run then. It seems to me there is often a pattern, a string of babies born UC, no problems, then a string of transfers.
No . . . I don't mean that at all. I wrote a very, very long post on this and deleted it, because I can't seem to express myself well. But that is not what I'm talking about at all.

I'll try to work on it and explain. I believe this is, to a great degree, the fundamental source of the issue (for me) and why I tend to post saying things like, "This is atypical, but _____________," especially when the OP's question directly relates to my own personal experience.

I'm sorry, I feel like I just can't express this in a way that will be understood. I'll work on it.

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#27 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 08:24 PM
 
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I completely agree with everything you're saying here (and appreciate the thoughtfulness in the rest of your post ) but I'm still perplexed. Because (I'm assuming) you wouldn't bring up these issues if you didn't consider them to be issues. That is: do you really feel you haven't been allowed to share your perspective? That people really are saying that if you've done everything "right" you're guaranteed a desired outcome? That "failed" UC stories are not welcome here? That the general concensus is that to discuss possible negatives to UC is to not be supportive of UC?
Actually, my comments here are in direct response to comments made on this thread that UCers aren't free to say what they want in support of UC or be honest/critical of others' choices without being accused of being unsupportive. I have never brought up any of these issues, anywhere in this community (although now I've responded to it). All I'm saying is that I want the freedom to be able to do the same - support a mama who had a bad UC transfer or who is thinking about doing something different the next time and help her work through her feelings about UC. Also share my perspective with a new mama considering UC. That is not inherently unsupportive of UC either; it is providing additional information, thought and perspective to someone who is presumably seeking knowledge. And when the whole issue got started on the other thread, I was commenting in response to your question about something she said WRT this issue.

If this was an "issue" for me that I really felt badly about, or felt that the situation was wrong, unfair, inappropriate, or offensive, I would have either left the community permanently (left temporarily when I knew the potential reactions could be hurtful to me) or started a discussion on it, or PMed someone I thought was a major offender. As it was, though, I dealt with it by keeping myself away when needed, to protect myself, and returned when I was ready to talk and take a little (not a lot!) of innuendo, questioning, and even criticism.

In fact, when I do see the kind of thing we've been talking about, I don't respond to it. I feel its presence but I don't think it's worthy of deep concern on my part. However, when it was brought up by someone else (the other OP, then you asked about it), I do feel that I have something to say about it that might be worth hearing, as long as we're talking about it anyway.

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I understand this totally, and you're right, the possibility of someone commenting negatively *does* make it difficult to share freely. But unfortunately, this just isn't something we can control. We can't make this a totally safe space; things that hurt or offend or are unsupportive *are* occasionally going to get written. It's just the unpleasant reality of a public forum. But in general, like you alluded to, people here attempt as much as possible to be gentle and understanding. This is a much safer place than anywhere else I can think of on the internet.


I have no problem with this. Hopefully that's clear. The part that you quoted (that you're responding to here) was an observation, not a request. I tailored my behavior to suit my needs, rather than expecting a change from this community which could be detrimental to everyone and extremely difficult, if not impossible, to implement. But that does not mean that the issue does not exist, merely that it did not seem helpful to me to discuss it. I believe gentle honesty is superior to trying to please everyone, although I will say I would never critique a birthstory in any way unless a woman asked for opinions. If I was troubled by her choices, I would simply not respond (or only respond with balloons ).

And finally, I think that in some of what I've written, my use of generalizations has been unhelpful. Someone pointed out that even here we can't agree on exactly what UC is. I don't think there's an US and a THEM - not at all. Which, I think, is why I keep stressing how fond I am of this community. : Instead, I'm just sort of trying to give a snapshot of what's in my head - my own perception of an - overwhelming majority, maybe? Unintentional, but powerful and overriding sense of agreement with respect to this particular subject? It's not that Team A always agrees with everything on List A and Team B always disagrees and has their own list. Instead, that on this issue, I *perceived*, while preparing for my first UC, the general impression I have explained elsewhere. How much of that was because I wanted to see it is uncertain, and although that certainly played a role, I am completely sure that it was not purely my own desire to believe it that made it appear so pervasive.

I wish I could explain it better. Some of what I'm saying makes it sound like I'm critical of this forum, and I'm really not. I'm not upset or troubled by it. It is really more about observation and the reservation of the right to present my own experience as a part of the UC quilt, so to speak.

Sorry, I really feel like I've got cotton in my mouth or something. Anyway, I hope that helps.

Julia
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#28 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 09:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Romana9+2 View Post
All I'm saying is that I want the freedom to be able to do the same - support a mama who had a bad UC transfer or who is thinking about doing something different the next time and help her work through her feelings about UC. Also share my perspective with a new mama considering UC. That is not inherently unsupportive of UC either; it is providing additional information, thought and perspective to someone who is presumably seeking knowledge.
But, but, but... this is all good! It's totally appropriate for this forum. I am *very* sorry if anyone has felt like they couldn't share share their story or offer their support because they felt they weren't welcome to do so.

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Instead, I'm just sort of trying to give a snapshot of what's in my head - my own perception of an - overwhelming majority, maybe? Unintentional, but powerful and overriding sense of agreement with respect to this particular subject?
I wonder if part of the problem is that -- people comment inappropriately, and then nobody calls them on it? Or maybe one person does, gently, but everybody else thinks that's sufficient and moves on? In that not-to-be-named story we were talking about I did ignore a somewhat inappropriate response. It seemed a clear violation of that tacit rule of birth stories, that you don't offer (even what is meant to be constructive) criticism unless the story-teller asks for it, obvious enough here that it wasn't even worth commenting on. Like, oh dear, that person just made a social faux pas apparent to everyone so there's no point in calling attention to it, better to just avert one's eyes. Complicating it of course was that it wasn't entirely clear that advice or opinions weren't being asked for. I myself wrote a little book -- that I hoped would be read carefully as it was meant, to be supportive and validating of that experience, but maybe the conjecturing was felt to be invalidating in itself. I think these misunderstandings happen a lot, and fan the flames of the real incidents. But I think that nearly all of us do intend to be supportive and respectful, even when we disagree. It pains me to think of someone coming away from here with a different impression. But then again, we probably couldn't be everything to everyone even if we tried.

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I have no problem with this. Hopefully that's clear. The part that you quoted (that you're responding to here) was an observation, not a request.
I know, and ditto.
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#29 of 44 Old 05-03-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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a comment about commenting on UC's that transfered or otherwise didn't work out - I think perhaps some people don't say as many supportive things as they could because they just don't know what to say. that is certainly the case for me, I have been a lurker in the UC board for quite a long time but rarely post more than a couple of words or a hug because I really just don't know what to say

from what I have seen this forum seems very supportive, and I agree it would be nice if noone had to put a disclaimer in their posts.

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#30 of 44 Old 05-04-2007, 01:17 AM
 
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I think alot of communication flare ups on this board arise due to a few factors. Ask yourself, are any of these YOU?:

1. You are pregnant for the first time and you are gung-ho about UC. This was me. I honestly couldn't imagine doing it another way. I KNOW that I have insulted people on this board when I was pregnant! I thought I knew everything!! BTW, If I insulted you, I am VERY sorry. Hindsight really is 20/20.

2. You had a UC transfer and come back to this UC board before your hormones have normalized. When I read back at my old post regarding my birth and the subsequent banter, I am amazed at what offended me then! I must have been SO hormonal! Definitely defensive. Although I didn't ask for advice, I certainly received some questions that implied that "maybe there were a few other things I could have tried". I remember being FURIOUS at that post. enough so that I didn't come back here for 6 months! When I read them now, they just seem "ill-timed".

3. You have had bad birth experiences with either midwives or doctors and can't imagine a good experience for anyone unless it's a UC
. Reality check: Not everyone has a problem with the idea of a physical check for dilation. I would have let the mailman check my dilation after 30 hours of laboring at home!! I just wanted to know what the hell was going on down there!! Remember, I thought I knew everything!

4. You've posted here under 100 times and think that you "know this community". Wait! That's me!! I lurk more than I post, though, I swear!!:

hahah just some observations I've made...I really do love this community!

Finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel...:
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