Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all... - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 12:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by StrongBeliever View Post
All of that being said... I really does make me happy to see that some mothers have been able to take good away from this thread. I think it may be worth it to start another thread for those interested in pursuing life without documents for their children, so that we can all speak openly without having to worry about defending ourselves. Let me know what you all think.
I would love to have another thread.

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#122 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 01:22 PM
 
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I would too - there are lot's of interesting things to discuss without having to skip past the multiple objector posts. I don't remember anyone *ever* asking if it was "alright" to do without a birth certificate?

I was watching "Hotel Rawanda" last night, and it really made me shudder when he was asked to show his documents and simple stamp on the paper determined if he would be shot on the spot of not! We think it will never happen here - it happened in Germany...

I was very insulted that I had to seek permission from the state to get married legally. I handled that irritation by recognizing that marriage is an institution of multiple layers - their is the spiritual union, but it is also a legal union. I was interested in forming both.
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#123 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 02:06 PM
 
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we underwent one revamp of birthcert laws and undergoing more- there is a move to standardized- between states-- in any case delayed here is filling out forms "right now" up to the age of 14 but will be a court case in the near future- for those considering doing delayed certs start looking at your legislative calendars and see if they are slated to be changed or if they just met and went over the changes recently.
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#124 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 04:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C View Post
My 'why' was intended to provoke philosophical examination. Clearly I wouldn't have brought it up if my bc had "Printed by the Local Variety Store" or even "Queen's Printer" on it, which by the way, is our official document publisher, so that it was done by the publisher of 'notes' (which are promisory in nature, not titular), is, imo, cause for reflection at the very least.
You provoked some examination in me. For example, your post made it sound like Canada believes that either people or their birth certificates are legal tender. That sounded weird to me, so I looked it up and that turned out not to be true. I'm sure there were other people who were confused as well, so hopefully my post cleared things up for them a little.
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#125 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 04:23 PM
 
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Wow, I did not check this thread for a while and now I see that I missed a lot....

I must say though that I can totally understand it if someone does not trust this government. I do not. But I still need this damn BC.

Anyway, I guess everybody has to make a choice that is best for them.

So good luck for all of you!

Saskia

PS: A funny story about the terrorist thing. When I came here, I had to go through all the check ups to get a greencard. Since September 11 the regulations are more strict. So when I went to the American embassey (?) they asked me, if I would want to apply for an American passport as well. I said NO. Mistake number 1 . I said I am very happy with my German one and I would not want to live in the States forever. They were not happy about it. Later they told me I would have to come back in for another interview. I had to take another day off, spend a lot of money on gas and drive all the way to Frankfurt for this interview. They said "You understand that we need to be careful, right?" Then they asked me "Are you a terrorist? Do you help any terrorist? Are you planning on attacking the United States of America?" My husband is a soldier, that is the only reason I needed the greencard anyway. I answered "You had me drive all the way up here to ask me something as stupid as this? Really, if anyone would be a terrorist, do you think they would be actually stupid enough to tell you?" Well, I had to sign that I am not a terrorist and I got my greencard.

When we flew here I ordered special food on the plane, since I am a vegetarian and do not eat meat or fish. They wrote down that I would not want to eat the pork that was on the normal list and when we landed I actually had to answer some more questions like "Are you a muslim? Why are you comming here?" I said "Well, my husband got stationed here. It is not like I had a choice." They really had the nerve to ask me if I married him because he was a soldier. When I married him he was not! He got out of the Army before I met him and got back in way later, after our wedding. If he would have been in the Army, I would not have married him. And they ask me something like that?

I got mad and told them that I married my husband because I love him and that I gave up my job and living with my family, which is extremly hard for me, just to be with him. I thought it was so unfair of them to ask me stuff like that.

They just said "But you do understand that we need to be safe. You did not want to eat the pork."

GOSH, I never ate any meat, not even as a baby. Does that make me more dangerous? Now I think it is funny when I look back. But it was really really stupid.
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#126 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Weekends are busy for me, so just a moment in between stuff to say again how great it is for me to see interest in such an important subject! So many have given valuable input... Thank you all so much.

PreggieUBA2C... I was thinking the same thing today... Where to go with our new thread? Bryony made a good point that redundant question posts are impeding the learning process for those who might what to know more... I think a "support only" thread is definitely in order.

Ahh! I have so much I want to say! Tomorrow!
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#127 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 06:46 PM
 
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Mama to 3 kids. We live in a yurt!
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#128 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 06:49 PM
 
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I just wanted to mention something that my husband mentioned to me. If you work for the government in any way or haul any kind of hazardous materials (as my husband does) you have to have a SSN and a birth certificate. So our livelyhood depends on it. As much as I hate the thought of being tracked at all, it is a part of living in our society.

Rebecca
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#129 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 08:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by siennasmom View Post
You provoked some examination in me. For example, your post made it sound like Canada believes that either people or their birth certificates are legal tender. That sounded weird to me, so I looked it up and that turned out not to be true. I'm sure there were other people who were confused as well, so hopefully my post cleared things up for them a little.
I do know there are a many who are confused (umm, and I don't represent Canada...) and I am sure that Wikipedia did not address the concept of legal tender. Whether or not my BC is legal tender is dependent upon a gov't decree or contract that forces its acceptance in the payment of debt. I believe that this has already been done and continues to be done in the global economy. You will have to dig much deeper into world economics to begin to understand this; doubtful Wikipedia will be of any help in that since it is a compilation encyclopedia that those who have been heavily indoctrinated with precisely the lie we are discussing here co-author. Can you imagine if I tried to contribute? Edit, edit, edit, for sure!

As a Canada Bank Note, my birth certificate is not just one of the security-printed documents mentioned in the Wikipedia paragraph, but a promisory note, which is what a bank note is and what our paper or fiat currency is and if it is a 'note' and not just a document (such as all publications and documents of the Queen's Printer), then there must be an actual tangible, tradable commodity that it promises in exchange for whatever is being offered.

It used to be that notes were used as promisory for gold bars held in the reserve because it was easier than carrying those around and exchanging gold bars for a bag of carrots. We no longer have gold to back the dollar notes we exchange for real goods (because both Canada and the United States are actually bankrupt) , and my birth certificate says on it that it is a note, a BANK note.

If anyone can decipher the meaning in this, then the Wikipedia paragraph didn't clear anything up at all because it simply stated that that notes and some secure documents are printed by the canadian bank note company. What exactly do you think that clears up? What do you think 'legal tender' is? For fun, maybe you could call a bank and ask them what the definition of 'money' is. The Bank of Canada defines money as, and I'm paraphrasing here, anything that they deem to be so (see below- highlighting mine). Funny. Back to the 'Canada Bank Note' on my birth certificate- the promisory for the flesh and blood woman whose lifetime of labour and child-rearing is valuable in a way that most are unaware is possible and happening right now.

Taken from: http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/review...5/djoudad.html

Creation of the Narrow Monetary Aggregates in Canada

There are many ways to aggregate various financial assets and money stocks to represent the supply of money. Economists generally aggregate money using two approaches (Laidler 1969). The first approach is to group those monetary assets that most closely represent some underlying definition of money, such as a medium of exchange or a store of value. The second approach is to define money as an aggregation of financial assets that have the most significant empirical relationship with certain macroeconomic variables, such as real output and inflation. However, no single method of monetary aggregation has been universally accepted, because there is no simple "one size fits all" approach to deal with the numerous economic concepts of money (Laidler 1999). As White (1976, 49) remarked, "the answer to . . . the related choice between alternative money definitions [is] based on the usefulness of the various aggregates for policy purposes."


If CAN and the USA corporations still had gold to count on an abacus, there would be no attempt to define the value of 'money'- we would still be defining the value of gold according to a much broader spectrum of global distribution, not for national 'POLICY PURPOSES'!

Who sets up a promisory without ever intending to collect the goods attached to it? Who produces a promisory note without any intention of making it legal tender? Are you then fine with accepting so-called counterfeit money? It's just as much not legal tender as you think my birth certificate is, but the bc seems an acceptable 'registration' of my 'person' to you, so...

Do you think this was a simple and accidental publishing typo?

Well, I've been absent for 8 months, and during that time, it turns out that I have completely transformed. You are all precious. Thank you for being here and sharing your lives. You are truly a gift. namaste.gif Jan. 23, 2012

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#130 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 09:06 PM
 
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Here is a decent summary of the accepted definitions of 'legal tender' in various nations:

http://www.answers.com/topic/legal-tender

Well, I've been absent for 8 months, and during that time, it turns out that I have completely transformed. You are all precious. Thank you for being here and sharing your lives. You are truly a gift. namaste.gif Jan. 23, 2012

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#131 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 09:13 PM
 
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Activism- War and Politics?

Since this will absolutely have to include a discussion of politics and (personal and international) war of sorts, maybe this is the right place?

Well, I've been absent for 8 months, and during that time, it turns out that I have completely transformed. You are all precious. Thank you for being here and sharing your lives. You are truly a gift. namaste.gif Jan. 23, 2012

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#132 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 09:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izobelle
You CAN get around not having a birth certificate, if you have enough other supporting information (from the link kindly supplied above):

" As many of the following as possible:

* Baptismal certificate
* Hospital birth certificate
* Census record
* Early school record
* Family bible record
* Doctor's record of post-natal care...
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Originally Posted by JesseMomme View Post
Here is where I'd run into more problems...
We're not religious
No hospital record after a UC unless you transfer
The census hasn't come around that I know of
My children did not go to early school (only ds2 went to pre-k at 4/5yrs)
No bible, again not religious
Only ds3 saw a Dr 5 days to a week postpartum, just because CPS was on our rear ends
Obviously I don't have this quoting thing down but JesseMomme replied to izobelle's list.

You don't have to be religious to have a baptismal record. You can buy the blank forms at Christian book stores or do a google search and print one you've found online. You can baptize your child in the name of whatever God(dess) or character trait or social value you choose.

Whether or not you're religious you can by a Bible and enter marriages, births, and deaths.

Michigan is one of the (if not THE) easiest states to homeschool. Even in states with lots of bureaucratic requirements for homeschoolers, anyone can homeschool pre-school and make their own record. It looks more professional if you name your school "______ Academy" and have it signed by the director rather than "Smith's Homeschool" signed by mom.

I because of a history of much spinal trauma, I always visit the chiropractor a few days after giving birth. The chiro with start an official record and has sent a letter on my child's behalf to the SSA. I've done this also with naturopaths. Suprisingly I've gotten more flack about the chiropractor not being a "real doctor" than I have the naturopaths. I think it's because their eyes scan over ND and their brain registers MD.

One time we were stuck with a particularly crusty SSA clerk wanting more forms of ID. We went across the street to the public library and applied for a library card for our 10 day old. We got the card only after the librarian lectured us that getting the card in the child's name (rather than as a subaccount on one of our cards) meant if we called in asking what books were checked out on our child's account they were morally obliged to withhold the information from us. She was a very, oh... let us say, a very PIOUS librarian.

~BV
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#133 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 09:29 PM
 
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Preggie, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. I've Googled. I found one page that said that some guy in Michigan got five of his kids taken away by CPS but one was returned because he didn't have a birth certificate and therefore didn't belong to the government. I find that completely nonsensical. If you think not having a birth certificate means the government won't "own" you, I think you're being naive. In the US, the government can lock people up and throw away the key in contravention of law and our very founding principles. They'll do what they want to do whether or not you have a particular piece of paper. I think you're much more likely to encounter problems from not having a BC than you are to thwart problems by not having one, but that's just me.
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#134 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 09:52 PM
 
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Possible Forum?
Activism- War and Politics?

Since this will absolutely have to include a discussion of politics and (personal and international) war of sorts, maybe this is the right place?


Is this already a forum or are you talking about starting a new one?

Just fascinating discussion ladies, thank you so much! I've backed off from participating, because I hate getting all riled about stuff and am much happier to sit back and bask in my new pregnancy right now.

But if the discussion moves, post a link so I don't miss it!!

Kat:

treehugger.gif Kat- mama to 6 little trees
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#135 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Siennasmom... One can never be completely sure that they are safe from anything. For me the point in not getting a BC, regardless of whether or not the government gives a damn, is that it is the absolute most I can do. In my eyes, I'd rather do something to try than to throw up my hands and say it is hopeless. I can't speak for what it boils down to in Canada, but here in America not getting a birth certificate is a step towards saying that the only law I hold supreme is the Natural Law afforded us in the Declaration of Independance.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Summing it up, that as long as my child lives a life that doesn't harm anyone or disrupt anyones else's pursuit of life liberty and happiness, that they are free from government interference... Furthermore....


—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness


I think it is my duty as a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN, someone who stands for WHAT OUR COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON, to do what I feel is right to quell the power of a government that has overstepped it's bounds and become a hideous and evil shadow of what it was meant to be. It's our job to instill change when we think things have gone wrong. To me, this seems like a good place to start, putting a buffer between the people most precious to me and the monster that needs to be battled. Should the government try to whisk my children away, I at least have the Declaration of Independence on my side which no one can deny, rather than the multitude of ineffectual statutes designed only to work FOR government.

As for a place to start our new thread, I think the Finding Your Tribe might be a good place, though I will want to ask a mod first. Activism would also be a good place... I can say right this moment that I not only want to find like minds and get support, but I want to CHANGE THINGS. You might call me an activist.
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#136 of 218 Old 06-17-2007, 10:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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*happy high*... Do I ever love the Declaration! Reading over it again after pulling my quotes, it is so comforting, and so enlightening. The Declaration is what it's all about folks! If you have any questions whatsoever about why it is so important to NOT go with the flow of our current government, then you only need read our Declaration of Independence.
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#137 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 02:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by siennasmom View Post
Preggie, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. I've Googled. I found one page that said that some guy in Michigan got five of his kids taken away by CPS but one was returned because he didn't have a birth certificate and therefore didn't belong to the government. I find that completely nonsensical. If you think not having a birth certificate means the government won't "own" you, I think you're being naive. In the US, the government can lock people up and throw away the key in contravention of law and our very founding principles. They'll do what they want to do whether or not you have a particular piece of paper. I think you're much more likely to encounter problems from not having a BC than you are to thwart problems by not having one, but that's just me.
If you read my posts, you will have already read that I do have BCs for our children specifically because the gov't DOES violate the rights of the human being to live as sovereign. In my previous posts, I have included information concerning the gov't's perpetration of a registration system specifically for its own economic gain and my loss of authority in my life, family and belongings amongst other things, and also that, In Canada, a Supreme Court Justice has set a precedent merging both the 'legal person' and the 'natural person' who were previously distinct from one another, that we have no recognised UCC, and SOoooo, choosing to not have a BC is just as dangerous as having one, but for different reasons. Perhaps you will go back and re-read or read for the first time my posts, which I think have been reasonably clear.

It is clear that to not register the births of our dc here would be hazardous, which is why I wrote that we have chosen alternate methods for preparing to live autonomously that do not include removal of ourselves from the system, as that is not possible any longer. Currently the fine for not registering a birth within 30 days is up to $50,000 (for the merged 'person'- legal or natural) and to start my own system of registration, according to the Vital Statistics Act of Canada is punishable by imprisonment.

I believe the gov't has engineered language such that we have tacitly accepted the merger of the corporate entity begun with what looks like our names at birth (strawman or dummy), and the natural human being, the one that is flesh and blood. Most would not hesitate to call themselves 'tax-payers', 'drivers', 'citizens' or 'residents', etc... These titles used to be distinct from the natural person because it is against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to compel a natural man to action (statutes, legislation and acts compel action; the law simply punishes)- this compulsion is what we have previously recognised and called 'slavery' but now affectionately term 'duty.' The majority of this engineering was done before I was born, and now it is too late for me to act according to my Human Rights, so my family has found other ways to live that do not endanger the sanctity of our home. I don't see what is 'naive' about that.

I think that most would need more than an hour or two to begin to learn how to navigate through gov't documentation and all of the Acts, including the Interpretation Act, (so-called) Common Law, Civil 'Law', statutes and legislations, accepted definitons according to the various Acts, precedent-setting court cases, IMF and world economic trends as recorded and reported by the nations and their master (the IMF), and also the plethora of misinformation on this very broad topic. Perhaps you would consider at least making a solid attempt before assuming that you're 'googling' during the past few hours would render you capable of refuting what has been read and understood by many already, from whom you might be able to learn something new.

It is ironic that you assume that I am naive given that not only have I spent years of my life thinking what you are presenting here (I would be confident to guess that most did at one point; we were all taught the same things- I have not just arrived from another planet...), but have surpassed that with a more indepth and accurate understanding of what is now and what has taken place. I may be naive in the grand scheme of things, but I don't think that I would qualify according to your implied definition, at least, for that descriptor, nor do I think you are particularly qualified to assess my understanding at this point.

Please feel free to either look further into this, or to dismiss it at your leisure; if you dismiss it, then why continue to impede an otherwise potentially engaging discussion? I do hope, however, for your sake, that you will continue instead to research and learn where you stand concerning your innate and inalienable right to freedom.

Well, I've been absent for 8 months, and during that time, it turns out that I have completely transformed. You are all precious. Thank you for being here and sharing your lives. You are truly a gift. namaste.gif Jan. 23, 2012

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#138 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 02:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rajahkat View Post
Possible Forum?
Activism- War and Politics?

Since this will absolutely have to include a discussion of politics and (personal and international) war of sorts, maybe this is the right place?


Is this already a forum or are you talking about starting a new one?
It is already there. Scroll down to Natural Family Living; it's the first section.

I think I should make some popcorn too; this topic sort of gets my ire up BUT I do think its worth discussing, even if I can no longer act; at least I know what my options are...

Well, I've been absent for 8 months, and during that time, it turns out that I have completely transformed. You are all precious. Thank you for being here and sharing your lives. You are truly a gift. namaste.gif Jan. 23, 2012

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#139 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 02:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by StrongBeliever View Post
*happy high*... Do I ever love the Declaration! Reading over it again after pulling my quotes, it is so comforting, and so enlightening. The Declaration is what it's all about folks! If you have any questions whatsoever about why it is so important to NOT go with the flow of our current government, then you only need read our Declaration of Independence.
Aah, StrongBeliever, I'm jealous. I wish we had one of those. We have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms- not nearly as useful or coherent as the Declaration. Sigh.

If you want to feel sorry for us here in Canada, here's the link: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html


Well, I've been absent for 8 months, and during that time, it turns out that I have completely transformed. You are all precious. Thank you for being here and sharing your lives. You are truly a gift. namaste.gif Jan. 23, 2012

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#140 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 03:16 AM
 
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So if all you need to get US citizenship is a fake baptismal record, then why are there any illegal aliens?

Quote:
I posted that information specifically to Dana's claim about NY state documentation. To get a marriage license in NY the DL doesn't have to be from NY. You can get an employment photo ID without a SSN or b/c. You can make one yourself easily or you can get one from many of the companies that don't require them. Some colleges have the same IDs for employees, students, and athletic club member.
But to get any driver's licence you need ID, to get a job you need a SSN or ITIN (both of which need birth cert/passport).
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#141 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 03:17 AM
 
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I did not want to read all 7 pages of this thread but I do want to answer the orginal question. The question about anyone having personal experience about NOT having a BC.

My DH did not have an "offical" BC until he was 17. His parents lived completly off the grid. They did not even have an address (lived in a traveling trailer). DH was born at "home" and still has never seen a MD. His parents made him a birth announcement and called it a BC. He had a great childhood and life was good. Then he turned 16 and wanted to drive a car legally so he could drive into town. He went to the DMV with his homemade BC, baptism records, and ciro records. He was refused a DL. It then took him over a year to get a "delayed certificate of birth". He was very angry with his parents (teenage hormones) for making him have to wait another year for a small bit of freedom. He viewed it as control and it did damage their relationship.

I do not want to get into a mud slingin' contest, I just want to share DH's story with the OP. Thanks, J
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#142 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 04:34 AM
 
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I have a question. Why would someone who is so opposed to getting a birth certificate want to get a proper marriage certificate? I mean why not just live married, and screw what they state says?

Or did you want to get the legal benefits? There's no free lunch. If you want the benefits of living in a state society, you have to play by the rules. I fully respect people who opt out, I really do. But you can't opt out of obligations while opting in for rights. It's an exchange.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#143 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, God bless America... At least we Americans, for the time being, still have options. I think if we'd like to hang on to them though, it's important that we all be educated and willing to act on that education. This thread has evolved beyond what it started out as... Really, I don't think there is any way that it couldn't considering the nature of the topic.

Thanks Veggijessie for sharing your DH's experience. I have a birth certificate, but I grew up very "outside" of the mainstream as well. When I was old enough to want to participate in the world I had a lot of anger and issues with my parents. What sixteen year old doesn't? For those of us with alternative-minded parents, it's over our freedom... We were taught to be independent and strong, and we want no one controlling or impeding our lives. It took me four years of doing what I damn well please, observing the world and learning that my parents were right, before I finally came to thank them. Of course I don't expect my children to fall over themselves to thank me for what I am doing, but I know that if children are never given the chance to think outside the box, they never will. I'd much rather have my child angry at me for valid reasons, than to think I am evil incarnate for not buying them a cell-phone or paying for their insurance or getting them their own charge card. Your DH is a product of his parents... He wouldn't be who he is today without them. Would you be with him is he had been raised like the "typical" American child is being raised? The way I choose to raise my children will effect the rest of their lives... Not just until they are old enough by law to get away from me. At the risk of sounding like an overbearing mother(have I gone there already? *haha*), I hope for my son to find a girl who thinks outside the box.

Izobelle... I'm wondering who your question is addressed to? I'll give you my input. My DP and I want to get "married". Do I want a marriage license? Heck no! Opting out of obligations in exchange for rights? Now that is silly. It is my natural-born, God-given right do be with whomever I choose, and it is our right as a couple to interact however we wish, and in the event of something bad happening, it is our God-given right to choose how things will play out. Since when am I obligated to do anything in order for those things to be true? Why should paying for a piece of paper make our union any more real? *shudder* Ack! "Legal benefits"... The threatening tone of that phrase(not that you intended it to sound that way) is disgusting. That so many people are afraid of their choices not being taken seriously, that they will do anything they are told to get the recognition they are naturally entitled to. I won't have a fear-based relationship... I put my faith in my partner and our love, not in a piece of paper that is supposed to make everything okay. That being said, I know that there is "no free lunch". Something bad could happen, and without a "legal"(*gag*) representation of our union either of us could get screwed. It is my understanding that signed "contracts" between individuals stand up in court(I'm not positive of this, I ought to be doing more research before I say this, but what the heck, I wanna say it now)... I would think that if any two people wanted to be together without state interference and yet still protect their assets, they could simply sign something stating that they have committed their lives to each other and should something go wrong A, B, and C is the way it ought to be, maybe with a witness or two. That might not work in all situations, but I believe it would work in most.

In that vein... I think it is entirely possible for ANY PERSON to function in our current society without having to pander to it's demands. But first that person has to make the choice and commit to learning what it takes to do so. I can see how that may not be appealing to some... Sad truth is that most people are happy to go through life knowing just enough to keep food in their faces and a roof over their head, not caring that the food is trash and they will slave the rest of their lives for that cookie cutter box they rest their heads in. They want things to be EASY. They don't want to have to TRY or to exert themselves in anyway beyond what the bare minimum REQUIRED of them. They marvel at people who are rich and successful, but won't do what it takes... HARD WORK AND MUCH LEARNING... to be successful. Anything worth doing takes effort, and is a challenge. No mighty goal can be reached without some bumps in the road, without hassle. If I want to live outside the box, and teach my children that they can too, I will have to bust my a** every day for the rest of my life... But I will be happy because I will BE DOING WHAT I WANT, WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE TRULY RIGHT FOR ME AND MINE. More important than that, I'll be setting an example for my children.
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#144 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 08:56 AM
 
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....But to get any driver's licence you need ID, to get a job you need a SSN or ITIN (both of which need birth cert/passport).
DL ID requirements vary state by state.

Many employees don't require SSN or ITIN. Have you heard about big raids rounding up hundreds of undocumented workers? One way some employees try to limit their liability (as well as tax burden) is to "hire" employees as independent contractors under I-9s (or is it 1099s. It's been over a decade since I've had a paid job.)

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Originally Posted by izobelle View Post
I have a question. Why would someone who is so opposed to getting a birth certificate want to get a proper marriage certificate? I mean why not just live married, and screw what they state says?

Or did you want to get the legal benefits? There's no free lunch. If you want the benefits of living in a state society, you have to play by the rules. I fully respect people who opt out, I really do. But you can't opt out of obligations while opting in for rights. It's an exchange.
The only marriage license posts I've noticed were from pro-b/c folks saying, "But then you can't A, but then you can't B, but then you can't C!" If you find a post someone opposed to b/c for her child and wanting a marriage license for herself, I suggest to quote the post and ask the person her reasons directly.

~BV
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#145 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 10:29 AM
 
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There were a couple of people back there discussing how to get a marriage certificate without having a birth certificate. I just don't see the point in that.

However, perhaps they were just trying to make a point and not actually get a marriage license without a birth certificate.

"Opting out of obligations in exchange for rights? Now that is silly. It is my natural-born, God-given right do be with whomever I choose, and it is our right as a couple to interact however we wish, and in the event of something bad happening, it is our God-given right to choose how things will play out. Since when am I obligated to do anything in order for those things to be true?"

I think there has been a misunderstanding, Strong Believer. I'm not saying that a person is obligated to get a piece of paper for the right of getting married. I'm saying that if a person wants the benefits of the paper, she has to get the paper. So, like, if you want to get the legal benefits of being married (which are benefits that are generally only possible when society is organized) then you have to participate in that manner of organization.

This came from my understanding that there were people who were suggesting that it was possible to get a marriage certificate without getting a birth certificate, to which I say, why on earth would you want to do that, if not for the benefits (tax-wise, presumably? staying at hotels together?) it confers.

But if there is nobody actually defending that position or suggesting that that is something they would want to do, well then I guess there's no point in discussing it further.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#146 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 12:26 PM
 
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...I think there has been a misunderstanding, Strong Believer. I'm not saying that a person is obligated to get a piece of paper for the right of getting married. I'm saying that if a person wants the benefits of the paper, she has to get the paper. So, like, if you want to get the legal benefits of being married (which are benefits that are generally only possible when society is organized) then you have to participate in that manner of organization.
So you don't take my response the wrong way, Izobelle, I want you to know I think your point (which I bolded) is completely reasonable. Now putting reasonableness aside, I'm going to talk about the law.

Non-licensed partners' ability to get the benefits awarded "legally" married couples differs state by state. Michigan, where I live, does not have "common law" marriage. Like all other states it does recognized marriages established in other states so a couple with a common law marriage established in another state could, move to Michigan, split up, and be forced to divorce in Michigan courts for the ex-partners to be free to remarry. (Personally I think the states accepting marriages established in other states will end up before the Supreme Court due to anti-same sex marriage constitutional amendments. Any ruling could impact common-law marriages between states.) Just so no one gets unnecessarily spooked, in no state (or DC) can you find yourself inadvertently married due to living together for seven years.

~BV
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#147 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 01:55 PM
 
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for my family my grandparents are the ones who did not have birth certificates and my grandma was born in Quebec, because my great-grandparents were traveling folks - and they traveled around in a covered wagon -she was born on the road in 1894 and grandpa 1880 . I was an adult and they were still fighting with some agencies for things like grandpa was a Spanish America War vet and they were not giving him vet's rights... and even US citizenship for grandma-- so it was all fine and well when they were young- but as they were older they did need things like social security because they were poor folk and because even if they paid for their land - there are taxes... and food costs and even tough they could live with out power or running water they actually liked having those luxuries-
our youngest son even though we crossed all the t's and dotted all the i's it took us 4 years to get his birth cert-- and in one of the years it had become manditory to get a tax refund to have a ss number- which they let go but sent us a letter saying that if we did not send in a ss number that he would be taken from our exemptions-- now maybe there are people who live fine sans these things but at the time we were living in a rental trailer with one car, one income and buying used tires one at a time- that money every penny of it was of use to us--- I have family in the NW and there is quite a clutch of Constitutionalists there, we also have family friends who have been in jail because of income tax evasion-- people who felt it was their constitutional right to not pay taxes-- the organizations they were associated with evaporated when trouble came...
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#148 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 02:11 PM
 
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"Like all other states it does recognized marriages established in other states so a couple with a common law marriage established in another state could, move to Michigan, split up, and be forced to divorce in Michigan courts for the ex-partners to be free to remarry. (Personally I think the states accepting marriages established in other states will end up before the Supreme Court due to anti-same sex marriage constitutional amendments. Any ruling could impact common-law marriages between states.)"

I'm afraid I don't know much about common-law marriage, but suppose you want to get the marriage benefits. Don't you technically need to get that marriage recognized somehow, or is the whole point that you don't need a piece of paper for that, that when the IRS comes to audit you, all you need are the testimonies of the people who know you've been living as a married couple for so many years, etc.?

Still, wouldn't it just be easier to get the piece of paper and have it done with?

Again, I totally understand people who want to live free, but if you ever will want to get into the system, you're not going to regret having an SSN.

I personally do not feel oppressed by a piece of paper.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#149 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 03:11 PM
 
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...I'm afraid I don't know much about common-law marriage, but suppose you want to get the marriage benefits. Don't you technically need to get that marriage recognized somehow, or is the whole point that you don't need a piece of paper for that, that when the IRS comes to audit you, all you need are the testimonies of the people who know you've been living as a married couple for so many years, etc.?
Common law marriages are a bit of a throw back to our country's time of westward expansion when someone might live years without seeing a justice of the peace for years. There are many types signs that taken together over time establish a couple's intent to live as husband and wife. One off these can be changing last names and another can be filing takes as a married couple. Common law marriage isn't something people are going to accidentally stumble into. Due to grandfather clauses only ten states will recognize newly established common law marriages. You can learn more on the subject by googling "common law marriage"+states .
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Still, wouldn't it just be easier to get the piece of paper and have it done with?
I have friends who were partnered in a lifelong commitment for many years before "caving" (from their perspectives) and getting the license and a civil or spiritual ceremony. One couple did it to keep the family together when one partner accepted an overseas professorship. Another did it after consulting with family and estate lawyers and CPAs about the potential repercussions of a partner death on their family and businesses.

I think the ones most knowledgeable about how much easier it would be to sign a piece of paper and be done with it are those working for same-sex marriage. They know how difficult it can be to legally establish some of the benefits of marriage and how utterly impossible it is to establish others

Quote:
Again, I totally understand people who want to live free, but if you ever will want to get into the system, you're not going to regret having an SSN.

I personally do not feel oppressed by a piece of paper.
I don't feel oppressed by most pieces of paper. A few can be a little tricky though.

~BV
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#150 of 218 Old 06-18-2007, 03:40 PM
 
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Well, people working for same-sex marriage status are in a different position! I do not envy them. They are working against a system that is stacked against them. I don't want to derail this thread, so I won't say any more than I don't think that's a relevant example for the het couples that want to get a certificate.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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