Choosing not to get a birth certificate at all... - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
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#181 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 12:06 AM
 
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Um... you do know that you're not exactly invisible to THE MAN when you're posting on the internet, perhaps on your own computer, with your unique ISP, right?

Carry on. This thread is hilarious!
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#182 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 12:09 AM
 
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In other words...

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I can respect off the grid living. I can even respect people who choose to live completely and utterly outside of mainstream culture, who don't register their kids for birth certificates or school, who never take a penny of government assistance and who live completely under the tax radar through barter/homesteading (though it's illegal). If it's part of a greater, all-encompassing philosophy to revert to what is essentially a mid-19th century life, then good for them.

But don't claim to live that life and then get a cell phone . Or have cable modems and post on the Internet while explaining your empassioned reasons why not registering your child with the state is worthwhile. Don't NOT pay taxes--but then use roads, emergency services for the moment when your husband cuts his arm off with the chainsaw, or call the cops when your car (car? why would you own a car if you're living a mid-19th century life?) is stolen.

If you choose to live completely outside of the government structure, then don't cherry pick and try to defend your choices as if you're an absolutist. Because you're not.
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#183 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 03:31 AM
 
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No, but where I see the lack of one having an impact in that aspect is that my child will be completely free of government interference during their formative years. That means that they can learn and go in whatever direction they desire... No need to follow anyone's guidelines as to what they "ought to know". I think this will more likely lead to my child knowing what they REALLY want to do, versus finding what pays the most for doing the least or taking the first thing that comes along because they are desperate, whatever. Yeah I'm homeschooling
I think what you actually mean is "my child will be completely free of anyone's influence but mine during their formative years. That means that they can learn and go in whatever direction I deem appropriate... No need to follow anyone's guidelines aand teach them things I don't want them to know."

You're just trying to control your kid's lives to the nth degree and hoping that that will make them turn out the way you want them. Well, I have news for you - whether your daughter brings her new black girlfriend home for Thanksgiving and asks for a floritarian meal, or your son arrives home in a pin-striped suit with a soccer mom on his arm and proceeds to Ezzo-ify their child in your lounge whilst discussing the latest stock trends, they're still you're kids, and you can't control them forever. Sooner or later you have to let go, whether it's allowing them to get a driver's licence or standing back to let them go down the slide on their own.

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Originally Posted by StrongBeliever
Instead of getting a job the way everyone else does, couldn't it my unregistered un-numbered child waltz into any place of employment that they desire and make a concerted effort to blow the socks off of the boss with their knowledge and additude? And when the big man at top is drooling all over himself to have such a capable and interesting person coming to them for work, wanting them to be a part of their business, couldn't my child say "Well, heres the thing..." and they could work something out? Some info for all of you... It is not a required to have a SSN to work! Yeah, it's true that most places won't hire you without one, but it isn't necessary. Identification, on the other hand is needed, but there are alternative ways to settle that as well.
In a word, no. Have you got any idea of the penalties THEY face for having an undocumented worker?

It's not required to have an SSN to work, but you do need an ITIN, and proof that you are authorised to work (ever read SS cards that say "not evidence of authority to work"?)

And, FTR, I'd say being eligible to work in any place would make you much more likely to find an enjoyable and satisfying job than havign to settle for only the places that will hire illegal immigrants.

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Since 1987, employers have been required by law to verify that every employee they hire is entitled to work in the United States. Compliance requires that an I-9 Employment Eligibility Verification form be completed for each and every new hire. Significant fines and penalties can be imposed on those who knowingly hire illegal immigrants or permit them to work after discovering that they are not legal. What’s more, the failure to document compliance, even if all your employees are legal, can result in penalties being assessed.

[the I-9] also requires the employee to attest to being: a citizen; a permanent resident (a/k/a "green card" holder) or an alien authorized to work through a certain date, which must be signed and dated by the employee.

In the second section, the Employer is required to review and verify documentation which establishes both the identity of the employee and their entitlement to work in the United States. This can be accomplished by viewing a single document such as a U.S. passport or a green card, or through a combination of documents, the most common being a driver’s license (to establish identity) and an unrestricted social security card (to establish employment eligibility).
Apologies, Strongbeliever, but you've obviously never had to actually notice how often you flash your ID, or what that ID actually says. Yes, you can have an ITIN instead of an SSN, but your SS card is evidence you're eligible to work. Without that you must provide evidence of eligibility to work - for your child with only an ITIN that will be evidence of citizenship. Well, except you can't get an ITIN if you're eligible for an SSN.

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Now, what if you register a birth and the state decides to mandate vaccinations? What if a military draft is reinstituted? What if the state requires that we subject our children to its educational standards?
Ever heard of moving? If you're hating where you live, go somewhere with less government. I hear Sierra leone is pretty much in Anarchy. No big brother looking over your shoulder there.

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Um... you do know that you're not exactly invisible to THE MAN when you're posting on the internet, perhaps on your own computer, with your unique ISP, right?
Noooo, surely they're smart enough to know to sit outside a house with an unsecured wireless connection to log for this sort of seditious discussion.
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#184 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 08:44 AM
 
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We actually are a very short way from requiring a SS # to work, it's in the immigration bill that they are trying to shove down our throats right now.

And no, your child will not blow the socks off of a corporate anybody when you consider the consequences they'd pay for hiring an undocumented worker. That is just the real world.
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#185 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 09:17 AM
 
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We actually are a very short way from requiring a SS # to work, it's in the immigration bill that they are trying to shove down our throats right now...
Like I said before I-9 and 1099. Many employers tired of their legal and financial obligations to their employees, "hire" them as independent contractors. Lots of computer programmers and outside salespeople are independent contractors. I assume if you've used the phone book to called a plumber to fix your sink you've didn't ask him to see his SS card or green card. This is because he's an independent contractor, not your temporary employee. The obligation to pay income and soc sec taxes are all on him, not on you.

Change of topic:
The reason I came back to this thread was because I saw this article that made me chuckle.

84-year-old man drove 67 years without license
Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:19AM EDT

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - An 84-year-old Dutch driver astonished police this week when he admitted during a random check that not only was his car uninsured but he had been driving without a license for 67 years.

Dutch media said Wednesday the man had escaped detection because he had never got a speeding ticket or been involved in a crash.

The man promised police he would ditch his car, which had also never been put through a vehicle safety test, reports added.
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#186 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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*chuckles* Tani... Have you READ this thread?

Wannabe... So, let me get this straight... Any parent who trusts themselves over others to teach their OWN children is trying to warp and control them? Get a grip. While I do have things I'd like to impress upon my children, mostly things I know they have a snowball's chance in hell of learning if I left it up to someone else, I have no intention of "controlling" every aspect of their learning process nor do I want to limit them. If you would READ what I write and UNDERSTAND it, you would see that clearly. Since you haven't seemed to notice yet, I'll fill you in... FREEDOM IS MY TOP PRIORITY. My child's ability to make their own choices is paramount in my desires for them. Whatever they want to be, who ever they grow into, I will always love them and respect them. Shitty of you to imply otherwise. Shame on you.

Again, a bazillion and one technicalities to show that it cannot be done. *sigh* Have fun with that. If you can't get out of the mode that things can ONLY work the way the government says they will, then I don't know what more to say to you.

While I would like to stick around and show you all that freedom can be had, if only you are willing to FIGHT for it, I've got better things to do than expend my energy here slitting hairs over rather insignificant bits and pieces. Hopefully you all will be willing to see and hear the truth should it ever cross your path.
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#187 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 12:59 PM
 
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Throughout this thread there have been what seems like diametrically opposed views about registering one's children.

A Summary

Those who oppose have, in general, expressed a desire for the realisation of the innate freedom of every human being; these are the ladies who are open to their children making ultimate choices whenever dc are ready, but not before, and view what others consider 'inconvenience' or 'hardship' from the perspective that no convenience is worth the sacrifice of choice. Also, that no individual should be subject to enforcement of the choices of a mass or government in their private affairs (the scope of which is a personal choice as well). Many of these ladies uphold concepts and the innate recognition recorded in documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Many of these ladies believe that the gov't has overstepped appropriate bondaries of governing a country by regulating aspects of their private lives in a way that hinders their overall choice, peace and enjoyment in some way. Many also believe in the innate competence and goodness of the individual human being as well as it's capacity to make choices that incidentally and/or consciously benefit others.

Those who advocate for registration have, in general, expressed a desire for organisation, order and fitting in for the sake of ease of living; these are the ladies who have opposed delayed or non-registration because they view this as potentially harmful, that it might or would cause what they view as undue stress and difficulty in their dc's lives, and "exclusion from society, favour or common priviledges (OED, ostracise, 2.)", so they make the choice for them. Many of these ladies uphold legislation that they believe supports the overall goals of the members of society which they presume to include such ideals as contentment, security of person, property and country as well as entitlement to benefits that they believe contribute to the 'greater good.' Many of these ladies believe that it is appropriate for the government to enforce any 'reasonable' measure necessary to protect and defend them and their country, that the decisions the gov't makes concerning the individual are generally in good faith, despite some oddities and mistakes as well as all-out fiascoes- these have minimal impact on a 'wholistic' view of the gov't and it's role.

Both 'sides' have expressed strong opinions on the issues, and while I do have a strong opinion of my own, I can see clearly that those who have put effort into their responses have done so from a position of having considered what they think is relevant to their lives and those of their dc.
That said, I have no reason to believe that anyone here has the intention to control another human being.

*I know that I have generalised, so if there are mamas whose opinions do not fit perfectly into the generalisation, please don't be offended- my opinion doesn't fit my generalisation perfectly either; I thought it was necessary to clarify the ends of the spectrum, however, since some have come to the thread misunderstanding the core issues involved in the discussion.

Wannabe, it does seem odd to me that you have chosen from the perspective of advocating for registration, a platform of freedom of choice, given that in registering a child, you have made a rather significant choice for him/her already (to ease their life in terms of employment and receipt of gov't benefits- you didn't ask the child if he/she wanted those did you? You assumed that dc would, based upon your own perspective, which is what you have opposed in those who choose not to register). Those who choose not register are not making that choice for their children; thereby, their dc's choices have not been limited until dc are old enough to make the decision on their own anyway- I'm sure you do not advocate child labour or operation of motor vehicles.

I hope this clears some things up.

It doesn't look like this runaway train is going to make it to another track, does it? : Activism thread??? Who will start it? Is it necessary any longer? This one is so long it's taking forever to load up on my low-speed connection
StayInformdMum likes this.

Well, I've been absent for 8 months, and during that time, it turns out that I have completely transformed. You are all precious. Thank you for being here and sharing your lives. You are truly a gift. namaste.gif Jan. 23, 2012

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#188 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 01:17 PM
 
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I thought I should add that the debate is probably largely relevant to Americans moreso than at least Canada.

In Canada, the individual does not have any inherent or innate freedoms- they are all granted through legislation with a cursory and polite wave to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but no real recourse for the individual except through the courts and thereby, legislation. Canadians rights and freedoms as recorded in our Charter are determined by court-enforcement and subject to the presiding judge's opinion. There is no precedent in Charter cases, so if you want the same right as someone else has already shown to be granted by the Charter, you must go through the whole process yourself and you will not necessarily be granted that same right, even if you have the same documentation and case. Cases are determined individually.

Dh asked me to consider moving to the United States...

Well, I've been absent for 8 months, and during that time, it turns out that I have completely transformed. You are all precious. Thank you for being here and sharing your lives. You are truly a gift. namaste.gif Jan. 23, 2012

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#189 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 03:16 PM
 
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Fascinating thread. Thank you! For those of you interested in learning more about where some of these ladies are coming from, there is a film you should see. It's called Freedom to Fascism. The director is Aaron Russo. His website is http://www.freedomtofascism.com . It's a really good introduction to some of the things that are inherently wrong about our current government. It covers a ton of very interesting topics and is a really enjoyable (albeit very scary) documentary to watch. As far as I can tell, it is reputable and the information is accurate.

As far as the mass vaccination threat goes, read the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act/Bill . The legislation is already in place.....
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#190 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for summing it up PreggieUBA2C. I think you did a really good job. And I think it is a nice end to a long and multifaceted discussion. That brings me to what's been in the air for a while now...

Taking the topic elsewhere... I asked a mod in the Tribal area, and got no response. I considered Activism, but after browsing there I don't know that it fits there. I want to take it elsewhere, and would be more than happy to be the author of the thread, but I am kind of stumped.

I thought of putting a thread up in the Tribal area anyway, but I'm not quite sure what to call it so that others could understand the purpose. Moms of Undocumented or Unregistered Children? Plain and simple, but damn it sounds awful. There's almost nothing you can state forthright that wouldn't imply that parents who don't choose that avenue are doing something less... Moms of Unrestricted Children, Children with Full Choice. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, that's not my intention. But if I were to title a thread in a completely honest yet descriptive way, I'd piss off even more people that I already have.

Taking into account that I AM DONE ARGUING WITH THOSE WHO DON'T CARE, and the fact that quite a few others expressed interest in having a new thread, THIS TOPIC WILL BE MOVING. What I'd like to see is some more suggestions from interested mamas as to where to go and what to call it. Those of you who have no intention of saying anything supportive, I'd ask that you please keep any more comments you might have to yourself. Thanks.
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#191 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 04:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Usually Curious View Post
We actually are a very short way from requiring a SS # to work, it's in the immigration bill that they are trying to shove down our throats right now.
No, they are going to require evidence of eligibility to work. You can be eligible to work and ineligible for an SSN. You can have an SSN and be ineligible to work.

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Any parent who trusts themselves over others to teach their OWN children is trying to warp and control them?
yes, you're scared that if you let someone else teach your child they'll teach them something you don't want them to know.

If your child's ability to make their own choices is paramount, then why not give them the most information they possibly can get in order to make the best choices for them. Instead of keeping them seeing only one way of life, and effectively limiting their options to those you think are acceptible.

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FREEDOM IS MY TOP PRIORITY.
So why not move to a part of the world where anarchy reigns, rather than living off the benefits of everyone else making compromises to live in a safe, comfortable society. Because if you want absolute freedom, you want anarchy, not the rule of law.

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Again, a bazillion and one technicalities to show that it cannot be done. *sigh* Have fun with that. If you can't get out of the mode that things can ONLY work the way the government says they will, then I don't know what more to say to you.
Yes, I know you've said many times that you don't believe in following laws. However, most of the rest of the world DOES, and your child is going to have to comply with those laws at some point or risk jail.
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#192 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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As I find every person's freedom to be a very important thing, and I don't want ANYONE to live a life without knowing what if due to them, I'd like to recommend some reading for the people who think that today's government is where it ought to be, and that those who disagree with it are out of line.

First... The DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

Second... THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION.

Do some research on the views of our founding fathers. Do some research on the American Revolution. Then do some research on American history. Heck... Just do some research.

From this point forward, I would like supportive comments only.

If anyone else should stumble across this who might have opposing views, why not start your own thread discussing the merits of having your family included in the system? It would be a much more constructive and positive thing to do, than to come and belittle those that believe differently.
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#193 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 05:20 PM
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Strongbeliever, in your very first post you said:

Quote:
I'm open to anyone's insight and opinions here. Thanks.
Perhaps you ought to start a support only thread and let those of us who are interested in the discussion here continue it. I think after 10 pages declaring that those of us that think not registering is, at best, silly, are not welcome in the thread is fairly rude. And, quite frankly, I don't care for the implication that those of us who disagree with you haven't done our research or aren't smart enough to understand your point. I would call that belittling those of us who disagree with you.
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#194 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 05:42 PM
 
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Strongbeliever, in your very first post you said:



Perhaps you ought to start a support only thread and let those of us who are interested in the discussion here continue it. I think after 10 pages declaring that those of us that think not registering is, at best, silly, are not welcome in the thread is fairly rude. And, quite frankly, I don't care for the implication that those of us who disagree with you haven't done our research or aren't smart enough to understand your point. I would call that belittling those of us who disagree with you.
Uh, yeah. Well said.
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#195 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Point taken ladies, based on your perception of what was said. But I would also like to clarify that I never invited scornful or demeaning comments. Looking back through the post, you'll see that I have given every opportunity for those who don't agree to make their voices heard. In light of recent destructive comments being made after myself and some others asked that people keep their comments within the bounds of assisting the conversation, I don't think it is at all out of line at this point to clearly state that I would prefer "support only posts". This is in respect to the people who really would like to know more, but who may feel unwilling to participate due to the accusatory tone of the opposition.

I'd like to further clarify that I didn't mean to imply that EVERYONE who disagreed with my view was amiss... I was speaking directly to the poster who had so blatantly skewed what I wrote. In defense of my stance, I felt the need to let that poster know in no uncertain terms what I thought.

I feel that both choices, to register and to not register, have their redeeming qualities and their faults. My choice is right FOR ME, and I don't expect anyone to agree. But I did expect those who oppose to do so intelligently and respectfully when they address that opposition here, as anyone would expect when trying to gather opinions from both sides(as I was trying to do). After not receiving that respect after the first attempt of asking for it, I find it necessary now to ask only for supporting comments.

Those of us interested are taking our conversation elsewhere. I see this as the closing of this particular thread as it was intended to find HELP for those PURSUING this avenue. It only makes sense that anything further posted here should apply only to those who wish to come along, right? If someone with an opposing opinion wishes to further discuss their point, then it makes sense that they ought to do so with like-minded people, rather than coming here to be argumentative. I would think that starting a new thread would be more beneficial to you if you want to continue, rather than to point fingers at people who have moved on... But if you wish to stay here and squabble amongst yourselves, I'm not one to stop you. I, for one, choose to argue no longer.
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#196 of 218 Old 06-21-2007, 09:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
yes, you're scared that if you let someone else teach your child they'll teach them something you don't want them to know.

If your child's ability to make their own choices is paramount, then why not give them the most information they possibly can get in order to make the best choices for them. Instead of keeping them seeing only one way of life, and effectively limiting their options to those you think are acceptible.
I'm curious, do you feel this way about all homeschooling parents? I mean, you could say the same thing about the teachers teaching a child in the school system. The information given to children in today's public schools are by no means the most information they can gain. For example, American history - there are two sides to every story and I only learned one side and ya'll can probably guess which side that was. Sometimes I feel like sending children to public schools are limiting their options, imo.

I really appreciated hearing all the sides of views but it just seemed to turn into a feeling of animosity towards the end. I think it's a fair question to ask about questioning whether or not to get a bc - what's wrong with considering it and conversing about it? Why the attitude??
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#197 of 218 Old 06-22-2007, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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A support only thread has been created for the parents who have chosen to pursue this avenue, and for those interested in pursuing life without documentation. You will find it in the Finding Your Tribe forum, titled Living Document Free. I look forward to seeing you there!
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#198 of 218 Old 06-22-2007, 01:06 PM
 
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this is the part I responded to initially--

" if there is anyone out there that could share their experiences, I'd love to hear! How did it effect your lives? Did it make finding health care(I'm one to stick to "alternative health care" anyway) hard? Has there been times that not having a BC for your child has impeded anything serious?

I'm open to anyone's insight and opinions here. Thanks."

since I understand why and even some ins and outs of how people do it, I only have experiences that have lead me to insuring documentation for my family.
As a midwife I have also had experiences where people have made this choice, to go without BC or other papers and what I will say is that it is fitting for the UC forum because UC and midwives who are unlicensed are the only way to pull this off- it is a law for providers to file a BC - and when a mw does not have a legal standing to support your late claims- what are the ways you can file? In the last 5 years I have been contacted by 4-5 young adults looking for a midwife in our area who is gone and has been gone for a long time... because they want to get a BC- so something to consider is to look at the laws as they exist now and try to have/save the necessary info that would be needed to file a delayed BC or if you need to go to court what proofs are acceptable- including notarized statements and any records that could date pregnancy , date of birth and residence of the mother at the time of birth( save an old driver's license and/or letter or bill that had your address and has a clear postmark-
I even had a copy of my son's record when I took him to a naturopath and supporting letters from a CNM and a doctor I knew and it still took me 4 years to get the BC- also at that time I was told (now I thought that we lived in the US) that I could have a baptismal record but not from one of those "weird religions" - flat out told that by more than one state employee --
Right now I know of a gal who was born in an ambulance and the hospital refused to do the BC and the ambulance didn't file one-- her parents weren't trying for the no bc thing it just happened to them and she is 12 and it is still not settled and they have paid 2 different lawyers on this case as well----
so this is not all my experiences but wanted to recommend that in order to keep some options open it may take a bit of forethought on your part.
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#199 of 218 Old 06-23-2007, 01:53 AM
 
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Strongbeliever, you find it very difficult to be disagreed with, don't you? Why on earth would any of us want to sit around with only people who agree with us. Would make life very very boring and you'd never learn anything. But then, that confirms my observation about wishing to resrict your children's exposure to POV which are different from your own.

But that's OK, take your bat and ball and go home.

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I'm curious, do you feel this way about all homeschooling parents?
No, I'm sure it does apply to plenty of homeschoolers, but I can imagine several very good reasons to homeschool. I've considered it myself. And like every parent I've struggled with letting my child grow up and away from me (even though she's only 2). makes it easier to see it in others, y'know?
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#200 of 218 Old 06-23-2007, 05:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cfiddlinmama View Post
Fascinating thread. Thank you! For those of you interested in learning more about where some of these ladies are coming from, there is a film you should see. It's called Freedom to Fascism. The director is Aaron Russo. His website is http://www.freedomtofascism.com . It's a really good introduction to some of the things that are inherently wrong about our current government. It covers a ton of very interesting topics and is a really enjoyable (albeit very scary) documentary to watch. As far as I can tell, it is reputable and the information is accurate.

As far as the mass vaccination threat goes, read the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act/Bill . The legislation is already in place.....
OMG!!!!! I was trying to remember the name of that Documentary...I watched this with my husband and some of our friends like 8mo ago and WHOA!! It really opened my eyes to alot of what's going on behind the scenes..of course, my mom has always been more in tune with this stuff so I hear tid bits from her so when I watched this doc, it really comfirmed what I have heard.

I would recommend you all to watch this film!!! It is truely amazing and yes, scary to watch!!!

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#201 of 218 Old 06-24-2007, 05:34 PM
 
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I may have missed it in this gargantuan thread, but what does your partner think Strong Believer?
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#202 of 218 Old 06-25-2007, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thankyou Mwherbs, for sharing your information and experience. It is that kind of information which may go a long way in helping someone make a level headed and informed decision. Your understanding and thoughtfulness throughout this thread is greatly appreciated.

Tessie... My partner is supportive. We are working together to get more information, and to educate each other. He had the same questions as many of you have had at first, but doing the research has been very beneficial for both of us. He has gained a new outlook, and I have learned more than I knew. He s on board with the decision not to register this child, nor any of the children we may have in the future.

You find it very hard not pick fights, don't you Wannabe? Wanting an environment of support, free from spiteful attacks on character based upon unwarranted and petty assumptions... Yeah, I'm guilty of that.
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#203 of 218 Old 06-25-2007, 11:23 AM
 
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"I hear Sierra leone is pretty much in Anarchy. No big brother looking over your shoulder there."

No. It's more Little Brother- rather than requiring exemption letters for vaccinations, they stop you on roads (which they do not repair, unlike Big Brother) every 500 meters and demand money or else you will see one end or the other of the kalashnikov that they are holding in their little hands. Fun, fun, fun!!!

That being said, you could always buy an island and issue your own passports. I think it takes a lot of lobbying to get recognized by other countries, though, which would be a pain in the a** to say the least.

I know the government has a big long file on me ever since they did a background check so that I could go on a tour that a relative arranged. That's okay.

The real trick to staying free is just to be as loud as possible and get attention abroad. They are usually too afraid to kill you then. It looks bad.

I am still wondering about the whole travel thing. I can really see living off the grid and all but what about not being able to go to, uh, I dunno, Bolivia? Nepal? See Lakes Victoria and Geneva? Presumably having a passport is way worse for off-the-griders than a birth certificate. So what do you do?

I live overseas and I love it. I even live in a country where I have to pay through the nose to register at the local police station every three months. They don't do this to control me. They do it to have an excuse to get money since their government salaries are crap. I think of it as charity.

So, how do you all feel about that? For me it's just such a big part of my life.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#204 of 218 Old 06-25-2007, 11:29 AM
 
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A few years ago some of the reservations were issuing their own passports- don't know how seriously they are taken or how well recognized ....
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#205 of 218 Old 12-09-2007, 05:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreggieUBA2C View Post
I am in Canada, so the way it works here may be different, but I thought I'd share anyway since the discussion has evolved to include personal philosophy and ideology.

All of our children are registered, but do not have BC's, however, it's really the same thing. Much has already been expressed here, but my main reason for wishing we hadn't registered our children is that it essentially entitles the governement and its agencies to monitor and direct how we raise our children. An unregistered child is not in the jurisdiction of cps, for example. Registration is literally giving title of your child to the Crown Corporation (here), and removes ultimate authority from the parents. Now if you believe that the gov't only has our best interests in mind, and you are into Brave New World, then this might not be disturbing to you. It is to me. It is also disturbing to me that my bc says right on it that it is a bank note- that is, a tradable commodity on the world markets. I am not a scholar in the field of dirty world economic dealings, but I cringe to know that since I have been registered, I have become a 'human resource' and my lifetime's worth of 'output' is traded like any other commodity/resource (instead of the gold we no longer have to back the Canada Bank Note- I guess I am a good enough replacement for a few gold bars...). If you think this is a conspiracy theory, maybe you could explain to me why my bc says "Canada Bank Note." I haven't tried yet, but I thought of taking it to the Bank of Canada and trying to cash it in... I wonder what my name is worth.

I find it disturbing that every document I have ever recieved from the gov't or bank has my name in capital letters, like my bc. I know that is because my name is incorporated, which is why I don't have to register a business name if I choose to use my birth name, but if I want another name, I have to register; my birth name is already a registered corporation. And it is bankrupt, just like the government that incorporated it. It owes me everything it has, and it's the same for my children. My postscript should clear up why I cannot collect on this debt, however.

There is a lot more to this, and there are a lot of freedom-fighters or so-called extremists who fight against this stuff; I am only one in heart because my life situation doesn't allow me the luxury of autonomy currently. I don't believe that what I know about what I am having been registered, is worth any of the supposed 'benefits' I recieve, but having come upon this information so late, I have to just suck it up, and hope that one day I can release myself and our family. I trust that most of this seems like nonsense to most, but if you begin to research, you'll find a wide spectrum of both trustworthy and untrustworthy resources to help you to understand. It becomes clear which is which rather quickly, depending on how quickly you read.

Look up STRAWMAN, government bankruptcy, read through the articles at the IMF site, use the new terminology you'll learn there to look more up. The trail is long and very dirty, and if you have the stomach for it, you'll want to search more.

There are ample reasons for not wanting to register a child. There are very few for wanting to do it, in my opinion, and sadly in our case, just one of those reasons is compelling enough that we had to register our last child, even knowing what we do, and will probably have to register this one too I feel angry about it though...

For those who are registration advocates, why do you think that we should register children so they will have an easier time being enslaved to a corrupt system later on? Why wouldn't it be equally easy to live outside of it when one has been raised with the understanding to carry that through? All of the items on the reasons-for-registering list seem to me to be fabricated needs anyway (that have swallowed up what could have just as easily been available through other means, and have thereby become like shackles for some). I believe that we as human beings are designed to meet the needs of ourselves and each other as individuals, don't you? Why do you feel that you need what the government is offering in return for your compliance? (These are not rhetorical questions; they are actual questions that I have asked in a way that makes my own intentions clear so that they can be answered with your opinion, but in a given context, which makes discussion possible- I've been accused of asking only rhetorical questions because I give intended context... I don't get it... any way, I am truly curious to know if you can think of this in depth and still come to the conclusion that you need what the government tells you it is giving you, so please answer if you are inclined)

P.S. For those who already know this stuff, a supreme court justice set a precedent in Canadian law that the strawman is the natural man, flesh and blood, merging them as one entity, by intention of both the one who addresses him by his birth name and also by his recognition of that name regardless of how it is written, spoken or implied or how it came about. I think it is different in the United States still.

Strongbeliever, I am interested in what you are willing to share. Would you be willing to pm?
Here in the US, the birth certificates vary in format by state. But, I don't believe any of them tell us that we are a commodity. And why should they? Do you have to notify trees and gold bars and oil that they are a commodity?

But I know we are a commodity because I know the history. To get out of the Great Depression, the US Congress mortgaged the whole land of the US to the Bank of London. (You don't "own" you land -- just lease from the government a right to exclusive use in exchange for paying property taxes. I have heard that there are still some pieces of land, called "alloidal", where the land truly belongs to the owner and the government can't take it away due to failure to pay taxes.) The interest on that mortgage is supposed to be backed by our labor. Taxes on our labor are the collateral to ensure that the Congress can pay the interest. How would the Congress be assured of access to the fruits of our labor? Easy, rewrite the laws so that they own us.

We are legally considered "persons". Just as in Canada a strawman has been merged with the man, a US citizen is merged with person. A person is an office of the state. There are many things you can do or not do that are equivalent legally to accepting the office of person. We are assumed to have accepted the office of person if we have every accepted being called a person. We are assumed to have accepted the office if we use the normal form of street address. There is a different form if you are a "sovereign." You can't be a sovereign and a citizen or person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bluefish View Post
One of the things many of us fraidy cats here in the US have been fighting is a program that they are pushing to register all livestock - including pet horses, or livestock that are pets. They want to microchip all the animals and pinpoint your property with GPS. And they want to control how animals move from place to place. If your vet knows that your animal is not in compliance, he will be required to report you. I'm not one to fuss much about "big agriculture" but this is one of those things that will *only* benefit big agriculture and will make life very difficult for all the small guys. Not to mention that I see having animals and producing my own food as a type of safety measure against a disaster. I don't want the gov't having the power to come take or destroy my animals if they see fit (I'm sure they could find a way to do it anyway, if they really wanted, but at least they don't have GPS on my animals!)

I do feel that the life I have as part of the system is better than the life I could potentially have *right now* outside the system. However, I feel this life in the system is much more precarious than many people want to admit.
If I am remembering that correctly, it says that more than one chicken counts as a flock, and they have to be microchipped at the owner's expense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwright View Post
I mostly wanted to comment back to 2bluefish about the animals being microchipped. The government is actually in the works of setting up people to be microchipped as well and that's a very scary thing. Our farms are going away. It's truely a sad thing. We are losing our freedom bits and pieces at a time. I believe that our government is behind alot of evil things and its in preparation for taking control of the people. I also think it's going to get alot worse. I think we need to do our research and learn all that we can about this and decide to take a stand and fight for our freedom.

I wouldn't be surprised if they started to sneak the microchips into vaccinations. I mean, everyone gets them so it would make it really easy to just slip those in.
I heard a *rumor* a few years ago that there was a pilot program in 1998 where several hospitals were secretly microchipping all babies born there.

Just another reason to homebirth. And never leave your child alone with a medical professional. And be very careful what you let them inject into your children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryonyvaughn View Post
To get a New York State (NYS) DL you need ID + a SScard OR ID + a letter from SSA explaining you are not eligible for a SSN. The second option is how there can be so many foreign born cabbies in NYC.
If you are legal to work, you can get a SS card. You just show the paperwork that you entered the country under.

I worked for an international company that sent employees from Japan to work in the NY office to learn better English. Their families came with them. The employees went right away to the SS office with their paperwork and got a SS card in 6-8 weeks. Then they got a driver's license. Their spouses had more trouble because they weren't eligible for a SS card and had to get that letter from the SS office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by siennasmom View Post
Preggie, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. I've Googled. I found one page that said that some guy in Michigan got five of his kids taken away by CPS but one was returned because he didn't have a birth certificate and therefore didn't belong to the government. I find that completely nonsensical. If you think not having a birth certificate means the government won't "own" you, I think you're being naive. In the US, the government can lock people up and throw away the key in contravention of law and our very founding principles. They'll do what they want to do whether or not you have a particular piece of paper. I think you're much more likely to encounter problems from not having a BC than you are to thwart problems by not having one, but that's just me.
Exactly why I don't bother to announce my alternative views by rejecting documentation. It just gets negative attention, which these days is very dangerous. The government owns you because it has the force available to control you regardless of the legal right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahtob View Post
Uncharted area? : Two words: Google. Earth.

In the scenario you are imagining, there will not be any uncharted territory except possibly in a cave. But if the government wants to find you and any relatives know that you've gone off... they will start looking. And they would look in caves. They might do it just to prove a point.
They might do it just to eliminate any alternatives from existing, so that the next generation of slaves is no longer able to even imagine an alternative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
I don't support government in making personal decisions for individuals, i.e., those who are in positions of power claiming that they know better than the individual what is best for the individual, and claiming the right to force it on them, or, to mandate that individuals are subjected to things that aren't good for them, "for the good of the whole." In that category are sexual, military, health, economic, environmental, and educational issues, etc. Overbearance of the government on any of these issues is a valid reason not to register a birth.
Absolutely. And history shows this overbearance just gets worse and worse, never better.

Quote:
Here in Oregon it is a toss-up; the government isn't yet very harmfully intrusive in most things
I have heard so many stories of families in Oregon having trouble with the authorities for alternative living. Things like teaching their children pagan religions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Usually Curious View Post
One problem w/this is that regulations can change drastically from year to year. They may eventually outlaw private gardens(too much water needed to sustain), private wells(cannot meter and charge for the water accurately), your home(changing code or discovering a new type of endangered animal).
It is already illegal in some areas to collect rainwater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
You're just trying to control your kid's lives to the nth degree and hoping that that will make them turn out the way you want them. Well, I have news for you - whether your daughter brings her new black girlfriend home for Thanksgiving and asks for a floritarian meal, or your son arrives home in a pin-striped suit with a soccer mom on his arm and proceeds to Ezzo-ify their child in your lounge whilst discussing the latest stock trends, they're still you're kids, and you can't control them forever. Sooner or later you have to let go, whether it's allowing them to get a driver's licence or standing back to let them go down the slide on their own.
And they are MY children until they reach a point where they don't need me, and then they can control their own lives. Better me controlling them until they are self-sufficient than the government controlling them until they die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
Ever heard of moving? If you're hating where you live, go somewhere with less government. I hear Sierra leone is pretty much in Anarchy. No big brother looking over your shoulder there.
THIS is supposed to be the land of liberty. Why should I have to leave my homeland, where my family has been for 400 years? Just because some corrupt people have derailed us all from the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution? We have a DUTY to have a revolution if we are not pleased with the behavior of our government.

It is OUR responsibility to maintain the conditions of liberty here. Thomas Jefferson said we need to be eternally vigilant. He said that the government should fear the people, and not the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe View Post
Strongbeliever, you find it very difficult to be disagreed with, don't you? Why on earth would any of us want to sit around with only people who agree with us. Would make life very very boring and you'd never learn anything. But then, that confirms my observation about wishing to resrict your children's exposure to POV which are different from your own.

But that's OK, take your bat and ball and go home.



No, I'm sure it does apply to plenty of homeschoolers, but I can imagine several very good reasons to homeschool. I've considered it myself. And like every parent I've struggled with letting my child grow up and away from me (even though she's only 2). makes it easier to see it in others, y'know?
I find this very amusing. I am reading this thread for the first time from beginning to end, and the vast majority of the 199 posts I have read so far are from people who disagree with StrongBeliever. However, there is a big difference between some people talking about making a different choice and their reasons for weighing things the way they did, versus making personal attacks on a person and accusations of evil motives for their choices.

---------

We decided to register our children because these days the government of the US acts, for all intents and purposes, as if every resident is under its jurisdiction. If we didn't register, our child would be a "sovereign." and any action the US or the state of NY took to limit him in any way would be equivalent to an act of war on a sovereign nation. However, my son has no army and would lose that war in an instant. So, the distinction between person and sovereign is in name only.

If we didn't register him, we would be dooming him to a life of false documents and illegal identities, since our system no longer interacts nicely with anyone who doesn't have the marks of the system. It forces those who don't bend to it into a life of fraud to survive. If he later has a problem with his registration, he can feel free to use an illegal identity then just the same. This way he has the option of a legal one too.

------

Re: What can and can't be done without documentation...

Why should we have to jump through so many hoops in order to do things that are our God-given right?

I acknowledge that we DO have these hoops around these days, but why are so many people comfortable with them?

------

In theory, I really think this comes down to the difference between freedom and permission. A driver's license is PERMISSION to drive. If you were free, you wouldn't need permission.

An analogy would be a parent/child relationship. If a parent allows a child to stay out late, that parent could be called permissive. But, since what the child can do is in the jurisdiction of the parent, the child is not free to do whatever he wants. When he is an adult he can choose for himself.

Those of us who are registered will be legally stuck in the child role forever.

Leigh, mama to Rostislav homeborn Aug 9 2007, and Oksana homeborn Feb 24 2011.
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#206 of 218 Old 12-09-2007, 06:46 PM
 
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Those of you who won't be getting BCs and SS#s, I have some questions.

I understand you don't mind not getting the child tax exemption, but what if you or your DH dies...do you have enough money that you would not need SS or state help?

What if your DH dies or becomes disabled, do you have enough money saved up that you'd still be able to stay home and homeschool instead of having to go to work?

Do you have enough money saved that, if your child developed leukemia, you would be able to pay for the treatment without health insurance?

What if your child decides one day that he or she DOES want to travel abroad, go to college, open an IRA, or get a credit card?

If you did get a SS# and BC for your child, and they later decided they wanted to fly under the radar, couldn't they make a transition on their own into document-free existance? Plenty of people do it, don't they, start living under the radar even after they've been registered and all, say if they're in hiding or something? Those of you who do live document-free, did you start out being raised that way?

I am genuinely curious, because living without a BC & SS# seems like somethign that would only be feasible if you had enough money not to ever need credit cards, health insurance, tax returns, state help, etc. I also don't understand how this decision can be made for our children by us, to opt them out of society, when we don't know what their views on traveling, banking, education, etc. will be when they are grown. That you raise them to believe what you do doesn't mean that they're going to believe those things, or I'd be Christian like my parents. It seems better to me to get those things just in case, and then if the child grows up and wants to be document-free, he can make transition to living that way.

Why do we have the right to drive? Driving is dangerous; don't we liscense people to make sure they drive safely? Do we have the right to drive drunk, to endanger people's lives that way? I don't think we have some God-given right to drive; God didn't make cars, we did. Even if you don't believe in licenses, the fact is if you're caught driving without one, you go to jail, right? Doesn't sound like something I want to do. Even if you're a great driver, what if someone drunk hits YOU? Then you're in as much 'trouble.'

I don't feel controlled by the government at all..and my husband is MILITARY, lol.

Quote:
They might do it just to eliminate any alternatives from existing, so that the next generation of slaves is no longer able to even imagine an alternative.
I am not a slave. All countries have laws. Following them doesn't make me a slave.

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#207 of 218 Old 12-09-2007, 06:59 PM
 
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The Constitution says your rights end where another's rights begin. Your right to drive ends where my right to live begins. That's why you can't drive without proving you're doing it safely or while drunk. Your freedom of speech ends where my right to safety begins. That's why you can't shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre.

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#208 of 218 Old 12-09-2007, 07:53 PM
 
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we didn't register DS until he was 2.5, and started the delayed registration process then. it has been more than 6 months now. i had a family emergency overseas and i wasn't able to go--there was no way to speed up his registration even if a parliement member got involved and we were on the "compassionate" stream; it was devastating. i'm not sure this will matter much if you plan on never leaving your country.
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#209 of 218 Old 12-09-2007, 08:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Lilya
To get out of the Great Depression, the US Congress mortgaged the whole land of the US to the Bank of London.
I sure would love to hear more about this. Do you have any sources?

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#210 of 218 Old 12-10-2007, 11:06 AM
 
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Let me hunt some more. So many of my saved links are broken.

Leigh, mama to Rostislav homeborn Aug 9 2007, and Oksana homeborn Feb 24 2011.
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