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Old 07-31-2007, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Usual stuff. Nothing to get excited about, unfortunately.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072702164.html

Laura
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:05 AM
 
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"For a healthy woman, the overwhelming likelihood is that unassisted birth will be fine," Rothman said. "But a woman having a baby is not in a position to be monitoring herself."

Grrrrrr.
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:50 AM
 
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"Obviously women are adults and can make their own decisions, but do they really understand what the risks are?" asked Kilpatrick, who chairs the OB-GYN department at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
HA! Let's induce them routinely, toss Pitocin at 80+% of women, give them epidurals and narcotics and just say "You might have a headache" when they ask about the risks. Ooooooooh, but if someone wants to do something without our help shouldn't we fully inform them of the risks, because otherwise we might start losing money.

The funny thing is, I'm willing to bet the average UCer knows as much about normal birth, if not a great deal more, than the average OB or L&D nurse.

This one's good too:
Quote:
To Rothman, the nurse-midwife, Shanley's beliefs underscore a more fundamental problem with maternity care. "To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"
Interesting, coming from a homebirther. She's one of the what, 1% of women who went outside the system to give birth at home instead of in the hospital. So it only makes sense to go outside the system if it's in a way SHE would do it, I guess.

Did anyone else almost fall off your chair at an OB accusing a woman of "hubris" for NOT NEEDING HIM? OMG, I just had to laugh at that.

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Old 07-31-2007, 11:59 AM
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it's disappointing, as usual, that there's an undertone of disapproval for the activity, but on the plus side, there is an admission that there's an "overwhelming likelyhood" of success with UC.

with this, it seems to me that the assertion of--does she know the risks--assumes that the average UCer is relatively uneducated rather than being highly educated about this process. i think that's interesting.

i mean, i bet the average "in the system" woman knows less about labor, birth, and the various medical interventions "required" of her, than the average UCer--so, why not ask those women if they 'understand the risks' of interventive birth?

interesting, though.
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Old 07-31-2007, 03:04 PM
 
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"Obviously we don't think unassisted home birth is a good idea," said Judy Norsigian, executive director of Our Bodies Ourselves, a pioneering feminist health group based in Boston.
An executive director of a pioneering feminist health group.. I wonder if Judy sees the painful irony in her statement.

Rothman, CNM who birthed 2 of her 4 babies at home:
Quote:
"For a healthy woman, the overwhelming likelihood is that unassisted birth will be fine," Rothman said. "But a woman having a baby is not in a position to be monitoring herself."
Now that sounds to me like a CNM who trusts her ability to read and interpret the situation far more than the birthing mother.
Quote:
To Rothman, the nurse-midwife, Shanley's beliefs underscore a more fundamental problem with maternity care. "To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"
Gee, Nurse Rothman, could it be because *the system* is loaded with people like you who would rather watch instruments and play with fancy gadgets than pay attention to and take seriously the experience of birthing women? Sheesh! Some people would be so less ignorant if they just listened to what they say.

I found the choice of expert quotes funny. They first had a birth professional dissing *all* OOH birthers then a HBing medical professional dissing UCers. I wonder if people who've never heard of UC will notice birth professionals disagree over HB and might disagree over UC too.

Overall I thought they did a respectful job portraying UCers.

~BV
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Old 07-31-2007, 04:04 PM
 
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I stopped by your board to see the discussion on the WP article after I read it in the paper this morning. *I am not a UPer or a UCer, I have very serious complications during pregnancy that require a peri and hospital birth* However the quote about what is wrong with the current system that makes women go outside of it? Come on! There are so many things wrong with the establishment even I wouldn't know where to start. How about the episiotomy the OB gave me for my 7 lb baby even when I said no, or the nurses who wouldn't let my dh go with our baby to the nursery when it looked like I was heading for a D&C, or the nurses talking about giving a baby formula behind his mothers back. Seriously, there is so much wrong with the system, there is no wonder the backlash is growing. Maybe if someone would ask that question seriously and start implementing changes it wouldn't be so miserable for those in my situation. A girl can dream right?

Julia- wife to Tom since 3/01 mom to three girls- A Dancer 9/02, An Angel 11/04 and A Gymnast 1/06 + one on the way EDD 1/10
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Old 07-31-2007, 04:13 PM
 
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I blogged about my reaction here: Womon and Sprout

I found plenty to be upset about.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:56 PM
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i think for me, the underlying problem of most of these articles is that there is very little room to ask "why?"

i was unable to participate in the discussion thingy (though i'd love to see the transcript when it comes out) but WHY isn't a mother in the position to "monitor" herself during labor? i mean, who is truly more present in her experience, and therefore more qualified, than the woman herself?

also, i don't get how feminists can honestly believe that a woman is incapable of birthing safely, on her own, or at least deserves support to that choice. it seems to be very anti-woman to me to insist that women need monitoring (or hand holding) and are incapable of caring for themselves.

sad really. where's the transcript of the talk? anyone know?
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:57 PM
 
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I popped in because hubby sent me the link with his own caption "Play Freebirth".

Anyhow, I agree that there were plenty of ridiculous comments by The Establishment, but I do think that it was overall a positive article. Well at least a start anyway? I think the Post really makes an effort on topics like this and I am glad to see this covered. And I am always happy to read about local Maryland folks.

And it could be worse. It could be MSNBC writing/butchering it.

Anyway, my favorite line was of course the last one:

He was persuaded by a single phrase: "Don't worry: Any reasonably intelligent 10-year-old can do this."

Fantastic! I thought that part was lighthearted and funny (and a little dig at OBs too ).

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Old 07-31-2007, 06:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryonyvaughn View Post
An executive director of a pioneering feminist health group.. I wonder if Judy sees the painful irony in her statement.
that killed me the most. :

and all the "progress" the OBs have "made" in the last 100 years? um that's mostly due to societal advance in general. ie healthier living habits, public sanitation, modern transportation/technology, HAND WASHING, better nutrition, etc. All thanks to the OBs? HAH! Iatrogenic problems may have been resolved (hand washing) and twilight sleep may have been done away with (hardly any mother's idea) but they have not single handedly saved the world. Our mortality and morbidity rates wouldn't be closer to 3rd world countries if that was the case.

I'm tired of them dragging out that sad old song.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:06 PM
 
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a lot of the comments on the WP board are attacking their choice to have six children. I pointed out, twice now, that they are devout Catholics. They trust their god, her body, divine providence and they don't use birth control. Chances are these babies are well spaced using NFP as well.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous how people resort to personal attacks when they cannot come up with something logical to argue their side.

One poster said to me regarding infant mortality rates (i cited the world fact book) that of course ours is high, because of increased maternal ages. I understand that the medical profession deems older wimmin as high risk, but I simply dont buy it. I see it as all of the chemicals that are pumped into wimmin, birth control pills, fertility treatments etc. those INTERVENTIONS are the start of the intervening IMO. It's all related and all a part of the problem.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:59 PM
 
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I can't even read all the comments. There are a LOT of idiots out there.

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Old 07-31-2007, 08:10 PM
 
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There are a lot of idiots out there and they are idiots because they attempt to rationalize away facts with other bits of information (often un-sourced) and os and so was just a white trash vegan hippy and their baby died because they homebirthed and then didn't feed them breastmilk. it's tupid and I think we can only say so much before we back off in situations like that. No matter how much we agree withthem on certain points, ie. need for change in maternity care in our country, etc. they still just find what words they can, call you names and run away. It's silly really.
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Old 07-31-2007, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The online discussion actually went well! It was somewhat chaotic, as we (the midwife and I) were given tons of questions and not enough time to answer them. We were also chatting in another room with the producer about how to submit answers, which questions to answer, when we should respond to each other's answers, etc. At one point I refreshed the page and was locked out of the room, but managed to get back in fairly soon. I didn't get to answer everything I wanted, and felt exhausted when it was over. Oh - and periodically the producer would tell me I was taking too long to answer, so I would have to hit "submit" before I was really done. Check it out -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?nav=hcmodule

Laura
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Old 07-31-2007, 08:20 PM
 
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I am scared to even read it

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 07-31-2007, 08:32 PM
 
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One poster said to me regarding infant mortality rates (i cited the world fact book) that of course ours is high, because of increased maternal ages.
What, so it's solely an American thing to give birth at 40 years of age?
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Old 07-31-2007, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The actual article was OK. When I read it for the second time (out loud to David) it didn't seem so bad. I was somewhat depressed when I first read it last night. The reporter was much more focused on the supposed dangers of UC than the British reporters I've dealt with recently.

The online discussion is worth reading! The midwife actually had some great things to say! At times she felt more like an ally than an adversary.
Laura
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:01 PM
 
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Laura, I enjoyed the discussion! It really did appear that the MW was more of an advocate for you! I only wish that some of what she said had been used in the original article. IMO the original article made her seem a little backwards in terms of feminism and the right to choose for oneself.
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:11 PM
 
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didn't seem to emphasize enough the distinction between planned home-births with midwife assistance and completely unassisted "freebirths." I worry that those who attempt natural childbirth at home with a midwife will be lumped into the same category, and thus stigmatized
this comment almost got me going ... then i read the midwife's response!

Quote:
but midwives are not the only ones who have access to that knowledge....I wish that no one would be stigmatized for their choices in this arena
i was really impressed with her through the whole thing! i wish she had been in the article!
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i was really impressed with her through the whole thing! i wish she had been in the article!
She WAS in the article. But her comments weren't quite as nice!
Laura
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Old 08-01-2007, 12:00 AM
 
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I learned something new.... did you know that a breech baby is sideways?!?!


My dad forwarded it to me, all excited as if I'd never heard about UC before LOL

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Old 08-01-2007, 01:00 AM
 
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I just finished reading the article and discussion. I really enjoyed reading the responses from Laura and the midwife in the discussion. I really hope that it leads women to look into choosing a homebirth (either assisted or unassisted) for themselves.
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:22 AM
 
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Imagine if you replaced the title with: women are choosing to ____________ without medical assistance.

*Eat (You could choke! You need to eat somewhere a properly trained medic could intubate you immediately.)
*Defecate (The poop could be too big to come out! You might die of exhaustion.)
*Urinate (You could get an infection!)
*Make boogers (Your body is not capable of really fighting bacteria properly!)
*Menstruate (Those cycles are so complicated, women are just not in their right mind you know. What if something goes wrong and one hormone isn't produced in the right quantities? We'd have to monitor you to make sure.)
*Lactate (Huh, as if YOU could provide enough proper nutrition to your baby. Your body doesn't know what its doing.)
*Sweat
*Orgasm (You're not orgasming fast enough. Here, let me turn on some bright lights and help you with foreplay. Besides, your husband needs a heart monitor on him, he could die of a heart attack from the exertion you know.)

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Old 08-01-2007, 01:54 AM
 
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Oh! I didn't know the Griesemers had had a sixth child! Wonderful! I like the picture of them too -- they look so... so... normal. I mean, you know, contrary to the mainstream perception of what UCers are.
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:59 AM
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i did love that! a man actually identifying someone's refusing his services as an act of hubris

as a writer (couldn't tell w/ all my hurried posts could ya. used to do it professionally actually) i noticed that all the opinions of doctors were introduced as straightforward quotes or presented as facts. it's easy to misinterpret " it's a fact that so and so's (in this case doctors) believe (read as know) x " as the statement it's a fact that x. all the UCers quotes were prefaced by "she believes" or so and so thinks, making them unmistakable as "just an opinion"

writers as the paper where i used to work used that style when attempting to maintain journalistic integrity while talking about white supremacists and such.
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Old 08-01-2007, 02:03 AM
 
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"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"

There is a fundamental flaw in Ms Rothman's underlying assumption - I do not go outside the system because it is broken. I go outside the system BECAUSE I DO NOT NEED IT - IT IS USELESS TO ME!

Ah, better now...
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Old 08-01-2007, 04:29 AM
 
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"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"
Oh my word, and this woman claims to know about birth? What ISN'T broken in the system? cripes, that's scary.
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Old 08-01-2007, 05:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 2bluefish View Post
"To me the really interesting question is, Why would someone go outside the system?" Rothman said. "What is so broken that they don't want to use it?"
After reading the discussion with Laura and Rothman, I wonder if this quote wasn't taken a bit out of context. In the discussion, Rothman clearly feels the hospital system doesn't work and that homebirth is superior (even while opposing UC). My read (after reading the discussion) is that she may have meant this to highlight that the system has problems. I'd be surprised if she meant that homebirth midwifery is "the system."
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Old 08-01-2007, 05:44 AM
 
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Also, just to note, I'm not a true UCer (my first twin was born before the midwife arrived, so I'm an accidental UCer!). I definitely considered it, but I know it would be out of the question with my DH (the accidental UC scared him so much that I don't know if he would feel comfortable with another homebirth--if we get pregnant again, I'll have to work on him on that). I really admire how much knowledge you all have regarding what to do in different situations, but I definitely wasn't brave enough to UC twins (way to go, MamaRabbit!).
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Old 08-01-2007, 09:22 AM
 
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Also, just to note, I'm not a true UCer (my first twin was born before the midwife arrived, so I'm an accidental UCer!). I definitely considered it, but I know it would be out of the question with my DH (the accidental UC scared him so much that I don't know if he would feel comfortable with another homebirth--if we get pregnant again, I'll have to work on him on that)...
Well if you have another birth and the baby comes too fast for attendance, depending on your intended birthplace you'll be in your car on the road or in your home.

I have a couple friends who've had car births. The one whose water broke in the car was never able to get the smell out of the carpet/padding, ventilation system. They ended up trading it in. My precipitous labors were all at home. I vote for home.

~BV
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