Butt Dimples (aka mid line issues - spun off from tongue-tie thread) - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was just reading through the tongue-tie thread for the first time and saw a thing about kids with mid-line issues, butt dimples, the need for extra b vitamins, etc.

Lily has a butt dimple (excuse me, "sacral pit"), super deep with a "nubby". we call it her tail. her cleave is super deep, too. at any rate, it's deep enough that she was sent for an xray at 4m to check for tethering of her spin and spina bifida, etc.

she has outrageous allergies. connection?

Aev has a pit, not nearly as deep but definitely there. Her cleave is very definite with a red line, but not nearly as deep/sharply defined as Lily's. Aev definitely reacts to legumes through my BM, but I don't know if that is her issue or mine. She's never been exposed to dairy, wheat, corn, nuts, PB or soy directly so I don't know how she fares on her own on those.

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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#2 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:27 PM
 
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Well, DD has super super duper allergies, and no butt dimple. What is the cleave?

Mom to DD1 (10/07) and DD2 (3/11)
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#3 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:32 PM
 
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Ellie has the butt dimple, but so do I. We both have issues with food allergies/ intolerances.

What exactly is a midline issue? I wanted to ask when it came up before but there were too many other things to ask and it got pushed aside. And yes, what is a cleave?

Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
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#4 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:33 PM
 
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Yep, my 2 allergy kids have it, but not my 2 non-allergic ones. DD (the more allergic so far) has a deeper indention and line. Ds's is more shallow. I think my nutrient stores were better w/ his pregnancy, but obviously not enough.
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#5 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:39 PM
 
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So is the cleave the butt crack ? Ellie's is a definite red line that frequently cracks open. Poor baby. This issue has never come up in polite conversation before but it has been a strange Elli-ism for awhile now. Is this allergy related too?

Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
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#6 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:40 PM
 
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Mid-line defects include tongue tie, spina bifida, "sacral pits". Basically anything along the mid-line of the body (I'm sure Panserborne and others can chime in with a much better descriptions).

Cleave would be the nice way of saying butt crack

I would love to see the medical researchers focusing on this! It seems like so many of us are dealing with mid-line/allergy kids.
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#7 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:44 PM
 
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Huh. Now I want to check ds1's butt but I know he'll look at me like I've grown 2 heads if I'm like, "Hey sweetie, show me your bum."

Wife of Michael , SAHM to Aristotle 09/99 Raphael 06/07 and Marius 05/09 Known only in dreams but never forgotten: Euphrates Decluttering 290/2010
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#8 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:44 PM
 
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I know there is some connection between sacral pits and genetic abnormalities too. That is one of the "markers" the geneticist used to justify genetic testing on Ellie.

Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
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#9 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by LaurieG View Post
I know there is some connection between sacral pits and genetic abnormalities too. That is one of the "markers" the geneticist used to justify genetic testing on Ellie.
interesting!

FWIW, lily's u/s for her deep sacral pit also showed a kidney abnormality - one of them is 2 standard deviations smaller than the other. we were referred to a peds urologist but when we saw him he was basically like "she's a year old and has no hx of bladder infections, etc... no biggie. see ya in a year." and then we moved and didn't follow up around here.

i wonder if her having a compromised kidney function could factor into the allergy thing.

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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#10 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Huh. Now I want to check ds1's butt but I know he'll look at me like I've grown 2 heads if I'm like, "Hey sweetie, show me your bum."


"c'mon! i really need to tell my friends inside the computer all about your cutie patootie." :

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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#11 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 02:59 PM
 
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"c'mon! i really need to tell my friends inside the computer all about your cutie patootie." :
The sad thing is, he has a birth mark on one butt cheek, so I ask him to look at his bum again every once in a while (because I forget what side it's on and keep losing the card it's wrote on). He always gives me a funny look when I ask though.

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#12 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 03:02 PM
 
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You guys are killing me.

So what's the deal with the crack? A deep one is associated with structural issues and allergies? I don't remember anything noteworthy about DD's crack, but I will have to take a look when she wakes up.

Mom to DD1 (10/07) and DD2 (3/11)
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#13 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 03:06 PM
 
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You guys are killing me.

So what's the deal with the crack? A deep one is associated with structural issues and allergies? I don't remember anything noteworthy about DD's crack, but I will have to take a look when she wakes up.
I'm not sure if anyone (well, anyone "mainstream") has made an association between allergies and vitamin B deficiency, but vit b deficiency IS related to all of these midline defects (spina bifida, neural tube defects, and lesser sacral pits, tongue tie, etc.). And since lots of allergy babies have one or more of the issues, there is probably some connection. I know that Panserborne discussed how the tongue issues mess up digestion or are indicative of digestive abnormalities (I hope she comes to clarify) that can cause food allergies.
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#14 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 03:12 PM
 
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interesting!

FWIW, lily's u/s for her deep sacral pit also showed a kidney abnormality - one of them is 2 standard deviations smaller than the other. we were referred to a peds urologist but when we saw him he was basically like "she's a year old and has no hx of bladder infections, etc... no biggie. see ya in a year." and then we moved and didn't follow up around here.

i wonder if her having a compromised kidney function could factor into the allergy thing.
I don't know about the compromised kidney function link to allergies but it makes sense - if the Kidney isn't filtering adequately....

Ellie has bilateral congenital kidney defects, too - neither one is the "typical" kidney issues that go along with Turner Syndrome. FWIW, her Urologist has said that despite the fact that 1 kidney is not functioning at all her other one is able to take up the load entirely. Not sure if I believe that there is not even mild compromised kidney function - from what I understand kidney function issues don't show up on blood work until they are fairly severe so I'm not sure how they have made this determination. But it is interesting anyhow that 1 kidney can effectively do the job for 2.

Laurie Busy mama to Boo (10/02) DeeDa (10/04) and Belly (10/07) TS 45X
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#15 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 03:30 PM
 
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Let me add a few things I remember as related, to get as much as possible in one thread--this is such a fascinating topic... (and obviously correct me if I've gone wrong somewhere)... to me, it looks like there's a combination of genetic tendencies (which ones our kids (or us) actually get) and severity of the nutritional deficiencies (how many affect each kid, or us as adults)...

--anterior tongue ties--possibly causing speech problems, dental issues due to tongue moving weird, can be hard to eat some foods, babies can have nursing/sucking problems, kiddo may have v-shape in bottom teeth (pointing at tongue tie, also indicative of jaw being too small, nutrition issue)

--posterior tongue ties--often co-exist with high palates, may impair peristalsis and affect overall digestion, I think can cause nursing/sucking problems, high palates may cause sleep apnea type problems in adults

--hypospadias (urethral opening in boys isn't at the end of the penis)

--tight anal sphincter (also affecting digestion by keeping food in digestive tract too long, tends to throw off bacterial balance)

--something to do with reflux, a muscle? at the top of the stomach

I think cleft lips and cleft palates are also midline issues.


I've never been completely clear on this--how, exactly, is a posterior tongue tie identified? Can we assume that all kids with high palates have posterior tongue ties?

For anterior ties (and really, I know I'll need corrections and additions)--when babies/adults stick out their tongues, their tongues should be pointy, not flat or heart-shaped at the tip; the tongue should be able to move back-and-forth (how much?); when baby cries, I _think_ the tongue is supposed to go up toward (all the way to?) the top of the mouth making a cup shape.

I want to add the link to the Coryllos article on tongue ties as well, since it's good and it's good to have it multiple places (professional description of tongue ties on the AAP site with instructions for doctors on how to cut the tongue tie).
http://www.aap.org/breastfeeding/8-27%20Newsletter.pdf
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#16 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 03:33 PM
 
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DD and i both have a dimple. we both have allergies/intolerance issues. when DD was 2-3 months old that dimple turned into a pilonidal cyst and i was in the worst pain of my life for almost a week. thank goodness for my naturopath or i would have ended up with surgery, packing and draining for weeks. i haven't checked DS but i'm going to look next time he's in the shower. i wonder if i should have DD looked at for tongue tie issues.
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#17 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 03:34 PM
 
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I'm not sure if anyone (well, anyone "mainstream") has made an association between allergies and vitamin B deficiency, but vit b deficiency IS related to all of these midline defects (spina bifida, neural tube defects, and lesser sacral pits, tongue tie, etc.). And since lots of allergy babies have one or more of the issues, there is probably some connection. I know that Panserborne discussed how the tongue issues mess up digestion or are indicative of digestive abnormalities (I hope she comes to clarify) that can cause food allergies.
I remember her saying folic acid and vitamin A, are there other B vitamins involved as well? And I thought in another thread you thought folic acid was an issue for you--how did you decide between folic acid and A, or both? I have defaulted to A only (as a biggie for us) but I don't have a good reason for it.
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#18 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 03:40 PM
 
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For anterior ties (and really, I know I'll need corrections and additions)--when babies/adults stick out their tongues, their tongues should be pointy, not flat or heart-shaped at the tip; the tongue should be able to move back-and-forth (how much?); when baby cries, I _think_ the tongue is supposed to go up toward (all the way to?) the top of the mouth making a cup shape.
Hmm. DS2's tongue is rounded, not pointy, but maybe it's just how he sticks his tongue out? He opens his mouth all the way and then tries to stick it out.

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#19 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 03:49 PM
 
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Hmm. DS2's tongue is rounded, not pointy, but maybe it's just how he sticks his tongue out? He opens his mouth all the way and then tries to stick it out.
I was shocked at how spear-like my husband's and daughter's tongues are, but my range of comparison points is tiny. Just noticed something else--when I stick my tongue out, it curves down, I can't stick it _straight_ out (or rather, when I try, it's really awkward and short and a bit heart-shaped).
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#20 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 04:15 PM
 
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Okay, count us in. Well, DS, not me. I actually mentioned it (the butt dimple) to a craniosacral therapist when he was 5 m. old and she said she thought it was like spina bifida, only it 'didn't go there'. And she said she has it too (the therapist!). Another mom was there (this was free CST for a class), and she said her baby had the same thing and they called it his "poop catch". It does take some extra wiping! His is way above his anus, kinda above his crack, a BIG indentation right where his tailbone is (I think). Maybe I need to go read the tongue tie thread?! I've looked and he doesn't seem to have a tie, can stick it out a little and it's not heart shaped. Hmmm.

Oh, and about the midline stuff... I've noticed that he really uses his hands separately out to the side of his body. Granted, his arms are very short. Still, I'm wondering when midline skills (like grasping with both hands together) develop? I got a lot of Waldorf teacher training and they do lots of midline encouragement, like knitting, or hand games where your arms are crossing from one side of your body to the other. Thoughts?
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#21 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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Um... What would a "deep crack" look like? I don't know that I have anything to compare.
DH always laughs b/c both DS and I have a longer crack than his ( goes up higher I mean) - is that it?

Where would a butt dimple be - on the actual cheek?

Wow, reading what I just asked made me giggle.....gotta love this place!
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#22 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 04:20 PM
 
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Um... What would a "deep crack" look like? I don't know that I have anything to compare.
DH always laughs b/c both DS and I have a longer crack than his ( goes up higher I mean) - is that it?

Where would a butt dimple be - on the actual cheek?

Wow, reading what I just asked made me giggle.....gotta love this place!
:
Thank goodness there are bold people like yourself around to ask the hard questions. I want to know the same thing.

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#23 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 05:23 PM
 
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Sorry guys I can't laugh about this. This is a very serious subject to me and hits way to close to home.

A deep dimple, patch of hair or hemangioma at the base of the spine can be a marker for spinal defects (Spina Bifida, Tethered Cord) or what my daughter has is lipomyelomeningocele (along with tethered spinal cord, neurogenic bladder and neurogenic bowel).

In regards to allergies. She is on latex precaution. For some reaons these (spinal kids) are prone to latex allergies. One thing my daughter does have a big problem with is adhesives. I am sure its related to the latex thing. But when they take bandages off of her after a surgery or procedure it looks like they have taken layers of skin off.

In regards to folic acid. Folic acid deficiency has been linked to Spina Bifida. However, lack of folic acid has no baring in my daughters disorder.

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#24 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 05:42 PM
 
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Sorry guys I can't laugh about this. This is a very serious subject to me and hits way to close to home.

A deep dimple, patch of hair or hemangioma at the base of the spine can be a marker for spinal defects (Spina Bifida, Tethered Cord) or what my daughter has is lipomyelomeningocele (along with tethered spinal cord, neurogenic bladder and neurogenic bowel).

In regards to allergies. She is on latex precaution. For some reaons these (spinal kids) are prone to latex allergies. One thing my daughter does have a big problem with is adhesives. I am sure its related to the latex thing. But when they take bandages off of her after a surgery or procedure it looks like they have taken layers of skin off.

In regards to folic acid. Folic acid deficiency has been linked to Spina Bifida. However, lack of folic acid has no baring in my daughters disorder.
You're right, it is a serious subject. I'm sorry for laughing.
My little (foster) sister had spina bifuda, but I don't remember her having a butt dimple- although it's been a good many years since I had to change her diaper and it wasn't something which was on my mind when I was changing her. I remember when she'd come home from the hospital and it would look like she'd been burned wherever they had bandaged her and rushing her to the hospital because I'd put a band-aid on a cut she had, before I knew she was allergic to latex.
Thank you for telling us where to look for the dimple. When spina bifuda was mentioned, I'd have called my foster mom to ask but she still has a difficult time talking about my sister since she passed away 4 years ago at the age of 20.

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#25 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 05:58 PM
 
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I remember her saying folic acid and vitamin A, are there other B vitamins involved as well? And I thought in another thread you thought folic acid was an issue for you--how did you decide between folic acid and A, or both? I have defaulted to A only (as a biggie for us) but I don't have a good reason for it.
I default to folic acid/vitamin B. No good reason, I guess, except for the relationship to neural tube defects.

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Originally Posted by KatWrangler View Post
Sorry guys I can't laugh about this. This is a very serious subject to me and hits way to close to home.

A deep dimple, patch of hair or hemangioma at the base of the spine can be a marker for spinal defects (Spina Bifida, Tethered Cord) or what my daughter has is lipomyelomeningocele (along with tethered spinal cord, neurogenic bladder and neurogenic bowel).

In regards to allergies. She is on latex precaution. For some reaons these (spinal kids) are prone to latex allergies. One thing my daughter does have a big problem with is adhesives. I am sure its related to the latex thing. But when they take bandages off of her after a surgery or procedure it looks like they have taken layers of skin off.

In regards to folic acid. Folic acid deficiency has been linked to Spina Bifida. However, lack of folic acid has no baring in my daughters disorder.
KatWrangler Do you know if the latex allergy is related to the multiple medical interventions (with gloved hands, instruments, etc.) or is it something else? I know that people with other health issues that require lots of hospitalizations and even nurses are more prone to latex allergies than others simply from exposure (and probably lowered immunity).

Also, from what I've read, adhesives are a separate allergy than latex, but also a common one. I reacted to adhesive the first time when I had my allergic dd. I continued to be allergic to it for a year or more afterward (if I tried to wear a bandaid), but it seems to have gone away (I'm not as atopic now as I was then overall).
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#26 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 07:33 PM
 
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Also, from what I've read, adhesives are a separate allergy than latex, but also a common one. I reacted to adhesive the first time when I had my allergic dd. I continued to be allergic to it for a year or more afterward (if I tried to wear a bandaid), but it seems to have gone away (I'm not as atopic now as I was then overall).
Adhesives are probably a corn allergy.

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#27 of 173 Old 01-25-2009, 07:38 PM
 
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interesting, i am very sensitive to adhesives too. i've had to wear a heart monitor a few times in my life and the electrodes leave burn marks on me for weeks. my fingers and feet don't react to bandaids but anywhere else gets a reaction.
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#28 of 173 Old 01-26-2009, 12:04 AM
 
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Sorry guys I can't laugh about this. This is a very serious subject to me and hits way to close to home.

A deep dimple, patch of hair or hemangioma at the base of the spine can be a marker for spinal defects (Spina Bifida, Tethered Cord) or what my daughter has is lipomyelomeningocele (along with tethered spinal cord, neurogenic bladder and neurogenic bowel).

In regards to allergies. She is on latex precaution. For some reaons these (spinal kids) are prone to latex allergies. One thing my daughter does have a big problem with is adhesives. I am sure its related to the latex thing. But when they take bandages off of her after a surgery or procedure it looks like they have taken layers of skin off.

In regards to folic acid. Folic acid deficiency has been linked to Spina Bifida. However, lack of folic acid has no baring in my daughters disorder.
I apologize, my intentions were not to make light of serious health matters. I was just uncomfortable asking such graphic questions about a subject I had no knowledge about and that was my attempt at some misplaced humour...I didn't mean to offend anyone.


To add to the adhesives issue - I have heard corn is often used as well. (even in things like the glue on paper towel rolls - I only know this b/c I think on a corn-safe list it listed bounty rolls as being corn free...)
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#29 of 173 Old 01-26-2009, 01:44 AM
 
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When I was reacting to corn (and didn't know it; it was before I did the ED for dd), I had the adhesive issue, but also a VERY bad time with my vagina being red and inflamed from any kind of soap or condom. Once I cut corn, that all went away. (And then, after a year or two, the corn allergy went away, too, thankfully.)
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Kat - I'm sorry if it feels like we're making light of your situation. That was obviously not the intent of the thread. we were sent for an u/s at 4m to look for spinal tethering and spina bifida. that was a tense week for us waiting for the appt, so I can only imagine the reality of living with a more severe issue.

I really was/am serious about finding out about mid-line issues and allergies, and perhaps things we can do to help ourselves/our littles to deal with it from that angle. i'm interested to hear how mid-line issues can occur all the way up the system, but only be "obvious" at one spot - like for us at the base of the spine & at the kidneys, apparently.

Finally, Lily & I have adhesive issues. Medical tape = swelling and itching if it touches our bare skin. Certain band-aids are okay (I'm thinking the non-latex ones that come in purple & blue "eco" something or other at our co-op, also seen 'em at whole foods, etc.)

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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