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Old 02-04-2009, 10:20 PM
 
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No kidding. I want to BE her on a daily basis.
yes. I'm certain you would love it. You know, until you had to do something functional like....math. Or sewing. Or having a sense of direction. I live in my own *special* little paradigm.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:20 PM
 
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Slightly off topic here too, but I had the beet - pee thing this morning too...for the first time that I can remember. This must mean that my healing efforts are not quite going as planned....hmmm...


Back to sending healing vibes to CS....and all of us!
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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yes. I'm certain you would love it. You know, until you had to do something functional like....math. Or sewing. Or having a sense of direction. I live in my own *special* little paradigm.
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:37 AM
 
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No kidding. I want to BE her on a daily basis.
I just want to pick her brain for an hour every night before I go to sleep.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:13 AM
 
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Slightly off topic here too, but I had the beet - pee thing this morning too...for the first time that I can remember. This must mean that my healing efforts are not quite going as planned....hmmm...


Back to sending healing vibes to CS....and all of us!
I don't like beets but I'm thinking I should eat some just to test my gut healing!!

Still a sleepy mama to my fabulous 2 year old girl
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:29 AM
 
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The talk of pink pee and low HCl made me think about when I was a little kid and ate beets and had red pee. My mom called my gran absolutely hysterical, convinced I was peeing blood. I believe my gran told her to feed me sauerkraut for a while (a week? I'd ask my mom but she would never remember) and then feed me beets again. That worked (normal pee).
So, that got me curious and I googled Hydrochloric acid and found this article. It doesn't mention a relation to zinc, but it does mention a relation to low niacin (B3), low magnesium, low iron and yet again low B6.
Apparently, it's also a cause for yeast overgrowth, intestinal parasites and, surprise surprise, leaky gut.
There's also this article, which I found rather enlightening as well. I haven't checked tuberose yet, but I bet there's something there too.

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Old 02-05-2009, 10:38 AM
 
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Wow, thanks for that info!
I had never experienced the beet-red-pee until last year. Dh made some comment at the dinner table to the kids when we were eating still more beets from the farmer's market and I was like "huh?". Apparently it was a regular occurence in his family and happens to everyone. I had never had it happen to me or heard of that happening, so I looked online and apparently it can be a genetic thing-your body's inability to metabolize the betaine--the stuff that make them red.

I am intrigued by what JaquelineR posted--especially since I *finally* had it happen to me a few months ago! (and generally my allergies are worse than ever-ugh).
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:44 AM
 
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yes, it's never one nutrient in isolation that causes an issue. The thing about zinc is if you dont' have enough you can't create HCl. Other factors do play in though which is part of the reason you don't want to simply supplement zinc.

Low HCl is one reason for food allergies, but it's not the only one!
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:45 PM
 
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wow another piece to the puzzle. I do have low zinc (white spots, many many stretch marks), low B6 (depression, 10 years on the pill), recently low mag (need to find a corn free mag, my nails are showing a deficiency) - but no pink pee. I am juicing beets and no pink pee.

Children deserve the respect of puzzling it out.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:53 PM
 
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that's a GREAT sign!
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:57 PM
 
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Quick note for anyone considering the hair-based test discussed previously...I think you can't have colored your hair.

Momma to one small person I call Smoodgie :joy.gif
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:19 PM
 
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we need to start an "i want pb to hold my hand and teach me things" forum

pb, have you ever heard of heavy metal testing that tests for hemoglobin markers in the urine? my ped ordered it because i dont want to chelate and we have to send it to france. i cant do it yet because dd's urine is too dilute from bf round the clock. he said its something like certain metals prevent certain stages of rbc maturation, so if you look in the urine and see something that indicates hg at one stage, it means mercury tox etc. i cant explain it as well as he did (obviously), but im so excited to test her as soon as poss.
sorry, im not trying to go ot, cs briefly mentioned metal testing...
resume pink pee chat
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:28 PM
 
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Quick note for anyone considering the hair-based test discussed previously...I think you can't have colored your hair.
you can use pubic hair....unless you've dyed that too.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:32 PM
 
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we need to start an "i want pb to hold my hand and teach me things" forum

pb, have you ever heard of heavy metal testing that tests for hemoglobin markers in the urine? my ped ordered it because i dont want to chelate and we have to send it to france. i cant do it yet because dd's urine is too dilute from bf round the clock. he said its something like certain metals prevent certain stages of rbc maturation, so if you look in the urine and see something that indicates hg at one stage, it means mercury tox etc. i cant explain it as well as he did (obviously), but im so excited to test her as soon as poss.
sorry, im not trying to go ot, cs briefly mentioned metal testing...
resume pink pee chat

I have and I've seen interesting research. I haven't done it or had any clients who have. None of the people I'm studying under have either. I think it's interesting though. I'd like to know more, if you are willing to share!

The only urine test we have available here is a provoked challenge which I would NOT recommend.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quick note for anyone considering the hair-based test discussed previously...I think you can't have colored your hair.
Ever? I haven't done mine for over a year...

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we need to start an "i want pb to hold my hand and teach me things" forum
WAIT- that's not the forum that I'm in? I gotta go then...

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you can use pubic hair....unless you've dyed that too.
No way. Awesome.

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The only urine test we have available here is a provoked challenge which I would NOT recommend.
I know you've talked about this before... but I don't remember where. Why is that? Is it because the test actually mobilizes the metals? The one DAN doc that we consulted with (but never ended up seeing) said that was the only type of test that was accurate- that hair tests weren't.

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Old 02-05-2009, 02:52 PM
 
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the hair tests are extremely reliable in that they show you a shadow of what the urine would. So if you came up as being in the 80th percentile for arsenic on a hair test you have to basically add 10-20ish percent. It's not as accurate, but it's very reliable.

Yes a provoked urine test requires that you orally chelate (briefly, mind you) and pull metals out of organs.

Of the two the urine test is a better choice, but not everyone can handle chelation.

Doctor's don't like the hair test for the above reason, but it gives a very good picture of what metabolic processes are happening in the body. It is thought to be *most* accurate in the first few years of life by many. It also has NO side affects and is not in any way harmful, unless you are really sensitive about your appearance.
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Cool. I'm definitely going to look into it for DD. How about for me? Would the hair test be somewhat accurate? I obviously can't do a provoked urine test while BFing, right?

Back to the OT- I just got a call back from Azure, and their lamb is pastured and fed hay, and then fruit pulp is added at the end. Of course she didn't know what kind of fruit... but either way, it's not 100% grassfed, so I think I will stick to my local lamb. Except for soup bones, because they're harder to find locally.

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Old 02-05-2009, 03:12 PM
 
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Fruit? Wth? Why are they feeding sheep fruit?
Sorry, CS.

Wife of Michael , SAHM to Aristotle 09/99 Raphael 06/07 and Marius 05/09 Known only in dreams but never forgotten: Euphrates Decluttering 290/2010
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Fruit? Wth? Why are they feeding sheep fruit?
Sorry, CS.
I know. Seriously. :

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Old 02-05-2009, 04:36 PM
 
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CS, I'm sorry about this crummy situation. (And I'm sorry I've come in late on the discussion. I had to take a mental health break from the board for a few days.) Carrots are the only food I'm sure ds tolerates right now. Weird, huh? He can't have sweet potatoes or butternut squash though.

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well, I'm not necessarily a "there's a zinc deficiency so throw zinc at it" kinda gal. What *I* would do is a mineral assay (Doctor's Data does a good one and it's around $50) and see the actual levels. Low hydrochloric acid pretty much is a sure trigger for food intolerances. Low zinc means you aren't going to produce HCl the way you should. So, with a reactive kid....I'd pay attention. If the first major part of digestion is missed proteins that are too large pass into the intestines where they have no business being. When proteins that are too large sit in the gut they don't get broken down properly and there is a MUCH higher likelihood of them passing into the bloodstream thereby causing a reaction.

That's a pretty nifty thing to have seen though and it does IMO give you some good info.

You *can* supplement her directly with zinc if you choose....but I would personally feel more comfortable knowing what was skewing the numbers. Is she just not getting enough? can she not access it? Is her copper too high?
So, does zinc help your body produce hcl?

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you can use pubic hair....unless you've dyed that too.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:00 PM
 
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From the second article I linked to:
Quote:
Niacin, vitamin B3, stimulates HCl production. This can be taken before meals, as can magnesium chloride and pyridoxal-5-phosphate (the active form of vitamin B6) to help stimulate the body’s own HCl. I have suggested drinking the juice of half a lemon squeezed in water or a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar in a glass of warm water 20–30 minutes before meals with some success. Rosemary, ginger, cumin, or orange peel, used to make tea and drunk before meals, can also be helpful.
According to the same article, it's a lack of HCl which causes zinc and magnesium deficiency. So, to get enough zinc (and magnesium), you need to get more HCl, which is produced by B3, Magnesium and B6 (from what I'm gathering reading about it). So, a magnesium supplement, along with a B3 and B6 supp would probably help to produce more HCl, which in the long term would end up causing you to have less reliance on supplements in the future.
However, according to that same article, there are people who, because of stress factors, will not be able to produce enough HCl and will need a supplement (a fact I find difficult to believe).

ETA: Of course, PB will know better than I, but that's how I understand it.

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Old 02-05-2009, 05:08 PM
 
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that's because (I'm guessing) they are looking at effect of low HCl and not initial cause. At least that's what I'm thinking.

When you dont' have enough HCl you can't access dietary zinc and you have issues breaking down foods in general to extract nutrients. So ultimately it is true that you will be zinc deficient, but as per my biochem text and lectures the first thing you should do (assuming that it's an issue) is use zinc so that you can create HCl as well as offset the imbalance. The reality is that often people who are zinc deficient are also borderline copper toxic as a result....depending upon where you live. If you have copper pipes and low HCl you can get into real trouble.

B vitamins and magnesium can be helpful as well, but in my understanding not nearly so much as zinc. Of course the important part is WHY you are not producing HCl in the first place. It won't be the same for everyone which is why previously I said that I'm not a fan of "if A then B" because there are too many factors.

That article is probably referencing people who are popping OTC meds, eating a SAD diet and on a bunch of prescriptions. Restoring HCl can be done, pretty easily but it would be an uphill battle if you are doing a zillion things that are counterproductive. I wouldn't pay much attention either.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:15 PM
 
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oh, and I also think (as always) that where the info comes from will influence what they see. A nutritionist will see it differently that an ND for instance. A nutritionist will be looking specifically at what a healthy body has to do to function whereas an ND will have the broader perspective of what other imbalances will affect nutrient absorption. Their learning will be emphasizing things of that nature....yeast overgrowth, metals, pharmocognosy, pharmacology, inherited imbalances and subsequent compensations etc.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:28 PM
 
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From the second article I linked to:


According to the same article, it's a lack of HCl which causes zinc and magnesium deficiency. So, to get enough zinc (and magnesium), you need to get more HCl, which is produced by B3, Magnesium and B6 (from what I'm gathering reading about it). So, a magnesium supplement, along with a B3 and B6 supp would probably help to produce more HCl, which in the long term would end up causing you to have less reliance on supplements in the future.
However, according to that same article, there are people who, because of stress factors, will not be able to produce enough HCl and will need a supplement (a fact I find difficult to believe).
Okay -- I haven't read PB's response to this, but my ds (anaphylatic to peanuts and tree nuts, allergic to soy) LOVES lemonaide. Besides water, milk, a very little juice here and there, he will only drink lemonaide. And he is consistently the one who seems to intuitively know what foods are good or bad for him. When we found out this past fall about his soy allergy, we did a massive gut healing treatment on him. He had white marks in his nails, as well as a pasty kind of appearance. I was actually worried that the lemonaide was going to negate some of the benefits of the enzymes and probiotics. I also couldn't imagine that the amount he was drinking wasn't going to give him an upset stomach! We also had added in a mag. supplement this past summer, but I think until we removed the soy from his diet, the mag wasn't able to fully do it's thing. I was noticing the other day, that most of his white marks on his nails were gone, he has a much better complexion, he no longer has loose bowels, but normal ones......In other words, he is markedly improved in roughly 6 months.

Okay -- now on to read PB's response.....

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Old 02-05-2009, 05:33 PM
 
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From PB - B vitamins and magnesium can be helpful as well, but in my understanding not nearly so much as zinc.

This is good to know. So maybe I need to look into more zinc, and wean a bit off the mag.

Sometimes I feel like I'm brewing a big pot of soup....I keep messing with the ingredients, so it tastes different each time, but I don't have it exactly right, so I keep messing with it for the right balance of flavors.....

Laura - Mom to ds (10) and dd (7) "Time stands still best in moments that look suspiciously like ordinary life." Brian Andreas.

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Old 02-05-2009, 05:36 PM
 
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that's because (I'm guessing) they are looking at effect of low HCl and not initial cause. At least that's what I'm thinking.

Of course the important part is WHY you are not producing HCl in the first place. It won't be the same for everyone which is why previously I said that I'm not a fan of "if A then B" because there are too many factors.

That article is probably referencing people who are popping OTC meds, eating a SAD diet and on a bunch of prescriptions. Restoring HCl can be done, pretty easily but it would be an uphill battle if you are doing a zillion things that are counterproductive. I wouldn't pay much attention either.
Yes, that's what they were doing- looking at the effect, not the cause. I'm deducing my answers based on what they said, so I really appreciate hearing what you have to say. I hope you don't mind me (trying) to answer- I'm doing so in order to have my own questions answered (questions I haven't entirely *formed* yet to be able to ask directly).
Just to be clear, is this why a mineral analysis would be beneficial? Would a general nutritional panel give a better indication? Or again, the same test you suggested before (metal screen with nutritional analysis)? I know, I'm a PITA. Sorry.:

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Old 02-05-2009, 05:41 PM
 
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Is there any way to tell low HCl without a test?
From my toxic hair element test my zinc is 190 (supposed to be <300) and my copper is 97 (supposed to be <70, it's up at the 99th percentile). So now you have me wondering about my HCl.
And this lemon thing is weird, because I've been having lemonade and lemon in my water all the time the last couple months.

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Old 02-05-2009, 05:45 PM
 
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From PB - B vitamins and magnesium can be helpful as well, but in my understanding not nearly so much as zinc.

This is good to know. So maybe I need to look into more zinc, and wean a bit off the mag.

Sometimes I feel like I'm brewing a big pot of soup....I keep messing with the ingredients, so it tastes different each time, but I don't have it exactly right, so I keep messing with it for the right balance of flavors.....
Zinc is essential for cellular integrity. If you do some reading on zinc I think it will give you a good idea of what even a subclinical deficiency can do. It is HUGELY important in the human body.

That said if you are seeing results with mag, keep it up! Most of us are also mag deficient due to excess calcium in the diet. I would never tell ANYONE to wean off mag unless they started having symptoms of imbalance that pointed to a magnesium excess.

Magnesium is also essential for the nervous system, gut health and detoxification. When you have a kiddo with gut issues always include the mag! An interesting point is in the absence of adequate magnesium germ life builds and intestinal putrifications products build.

Really, it's just super important to be nourished! As I said before no one nutrient is ever the answer....everything works in concert and it's the balance that is important.

Keep on cooking that soup mama!
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:47 PM
 
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Is there any way to tell low HCl without a test?
From my toxic hair element test my zinc is 190 (supposed to be <300) and my copper is 97 (supposed to be <70, it's up at the 99th percentile). So now you have me wondering about my HCl.
And this lemon thing is weird, because I've been having lemonade and lemon in my water all the time the last couple months.
keep drinking the lemon!

And yes, the beet test appears to be pretty reliable. There are other ways to test, but not for free! Juice or eat a bunch of beets and observe your urine. It should not change color if HCl is adequate.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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Can you get the testing done through DirectLabs?

http://www.directlabs.com/Tests/Howi...6/Default.aspx

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