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lil_miss_understood's Avatar lil_miss_understood 05:31 PM 10-15-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
DP is highly skeptical of many of the treatments I chose for DD, but he doesn't oppose them. I'm not sure what I would do if he did.
CS said it so much more tactfully than I. I need to learn some of that.

bluets's Avatar bluets 05:37 PM 10-15-2009
If I were dealing with a skeptical dp, I would try first convincing him that we see a naturopathic physician (those are those licensed,regulated folks in CA). Another option would be a traditional naturopath (those are unlicensed and unregulated in CA).

Homeopathy, as much as I like it, doesn't always work (unless you've got a really really good homeopath) and can be a bit too "woo-woo" (for lack of a better word) for those who live by the numbers.

Acupuncture would be next - there is a growing body of CLINICAL work (i.e., real hard core medical science) supporting acupuncture (you don't need to mention that it is mostly for treatment of pain in chemotherapy). Moreover, the acupuncture (and acupressure) points do coincide with nerve ganglia in the body that control various systems - it is much less "woo-woo" than other forms of CAM therapies. And surely a medical system that is 1000s of years older than conventional US medicine, and has been know to be working in millions of people (the population of China kinda dwarfs that of this country)... well, wouldn't that be saying something?
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 05:56 PM 10-15-2009
Psychiatry is mainstream and accepted. I wouldn't have to follow through with the treatment, just use it to get a diagnosis so that I actually know that what I'm dealing with is depression. He admits that he doesn't know much about it besides one class he took in the UK but it's more researched-backed, and so he likes that. He was surprised when I told him that standard prescription of antidepressants involves guess and check to find the one that works best. Chinese medicine/acupuncture has similar issues with being based on reports rather than studies. The hardest part is that I basically have to research enough to be an expert so that I can happen on just the right wording to open the door in his mind, and then he has to read up on it himself. But in the meantime, everyone gets distracted by other things and the stress escalates. He did say, though, that if *I* think it's working, that would be enough for him. As in, since I'm the only one who sees symptoms and issues (dd's just like any other 2yo, and my random bouts of extreme irritability and depression just go with the territory of being a pregnant mom to a toddler. I should try therapy to learn better coping mechanisms, because nutrition hasn't actually *solved* anything yet, there's always something new), if I see these mysterious issue disappear, that's all that really matters. Sure doesn't feel good, though...

So pretty much, I'm left with researching and doing it all on my own, with his blessing, or go off into la la land and enter the world of alternative medicine and lose pretty much all support from him. But he won't be upset with me for doing so. Rock and a hard place.
bluets's Avatar bluets 06:00 PM 10-15-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
So I'm having trouble finding helpful liver information - either you're about to die, or you're perfectly healthy And there are a thousand cleanses, but nobody mentions pregnancy. I'm leaning more and more towards fructose issues over blood sugar issues, but I still need to test to figure that out - my mom still has the glucose meter.
And therein lies the problem with conventional medicine. Most of the tests they want to do only work (ie., are only meaningful) if you're on your deathbed. At least, that's what my (unlicensed) ND says.

I don't think I would do a liver cleanse while pregnant or while bf. Indeed, my ND recommended against it (I still haven't gotten around to it). That said, he does tend to recommend the RenewLife products. Dh has used several now with some success.

funny you should mention fructose... fructose metabolizes into fructose 1-phosphate, which can then become one of: fructose 1,6-bisphosphate, or glyceraldehyde, or dihydroxyacetone phosphate. F-1,6-bisP can also breakdown into glyceraldehyde or can form fructose-6P. The latter can be shunted into that glycosaminoglycans/glycoprotein/glycolipid pathway. You know, those things that contribute to cartilage...

My scanner's email feature is busted, but I'll scan and recompose this nifty map I have of the various cellular functions. (The only good thing about this stupid text for clinical biochem)

Oh wait! you have a problem with arsenic, right? LEt me make your head really spin.

Arsenic poisoning is due to inhibition of enzymes that require lipoic acid as a cofactor, including pyruvate dehydrogenase, alpha-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase, and branched-chain alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase. Arsenite (the trivalent for of arsenic) forms a stable complex with the thiol (-SH) groups of lipoic acid, making that compound unavailable to serve as a coenzyme. When it binds to lipoic acid in the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex, pyruvate (and then lactate) accumulate. This affects the brain, causing neurological disturbances, and if severe enough, death.

And here's a study on Arsenic homeopathy therapy: http://www.homeopathy.org/research/basic/Khuda-1.pdf
changingseasons's Avatar changingseasons 06:12 PM 10-15-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
Arsenic poisoning is due to inhibition of enzymes that require lipoic acid as a cofactor, including pyruvate dehydrogenase, alpha-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase, and branched-chain alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase. Arsenite (the trivalent for of arsenic) forms a stable complex with the thiol (-SH) groups of lipoic acid, making that compound unavailable to serve as a coenzyme. When it binds to lipoic acid in the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex, pyruvate (and then lactate) accumulate. This affects the brain, causing neurological disturbances, and if severe enough, death.
Oh man... my brain just imploded about halfway through that first sentence. I really wish I could wrap my head around that stuff right now, because it seems like it might be really important for us- we're high in arsenic as well... And Shannon- I seem to be having those same random bouts of extreme irritability and depression.
chlobo's Avatar chlobo 06:29 PM 10-15-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
Oh man... my brain just imploded about halfway through that first sentence. I really wish I could wrap my head around that stuff right now, because it seems like it might be really important for us- we're high in arsenic as well... And Shannon- I seem to be having those same random bouts of extreme irritability and depression.
You and me both, sister. My brain just cannot process all that stuff, although it desperately needs to.
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 06:51 PM 10-15-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
And therein lies the problem with conventional medicine. Most of the tests they want to do only work (ie., are only meaningful) if you're on your deathbed. At least, that's what my (unlicensed) ND says.

I don't think I would do a liver cleanse while pregnant or while bf. Indeed, my ND recommended against it (I still haven't gotten around to it). That said, he does tend to recommend the RenewLife products. Dh has used several now with some success.

funny you should mention fructose... fructose metabolizes into fructose 1-phosphate, which can then become one of: fructose 1,6-bisphosphate, or glyceraldehyde, or dihydroxyacetone phosphate. F-1,6-bisP can also breakdown into glyceraldehyde or can form fructose-6P. The latter can be shunted into that glycosaminoglycans/glycoprotein/glycolipid pathway. You know, those things that contribute to cartilage...

My scanner's email feature is busted, but I'll scan and recompose this nifty map I have of the various cellular functions. (The only good thing about this stupid text for clinical biochem)

Oh wait! you have a problem with arsenic, right? LEt me make your head really spin.

Arsenic poisoning is due to inhibition of enzymes that require lipoic acid as a cofactor, including pyruvate dehydrogenase, alpha-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase, and branched-chain alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase. Arsenite (the trivalent for of arsenic) forms a stable complex with the thiol (-SH) groups of lipoic acid, making that compound unavailable to serve as a coenzyme. When it binds to lipoic acid in the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex, pyruvate (and then lactate) accumulate. This affects the brain, causing neurological disturbances, and if severe enough, death.

And here's a study on Arsenic homeopathy therapy: http://www.homeopathy.org/research/basic/Khuda-1.pdf
I'm so not concentrating right now

I agree with no liver cleanse while pg/nursing unless you *really* know what you're doing, but what even *is* a liver cleanse, exactly? And how does that relate to things like milk thistle and burdock root - both seemingly safe while pg?

The odd thing about my arsenic is that it's firmly in the green on my hair test. But significantly higher than my antimony, which says to me that the two are separate exposures, and we still have significant arsenic somewhere to deal with. (Dd was slightly high on both.) I just think it's an increased susceptibility in addition to everything else. Which brings me to wondering, if my liver's busted (as evidenced by low phos on the hair test) but I'm *not* accumulating metals, what gives? What job is it, exactly, that my liver is failing at? Biotinidase and antioxidant production? Can I test that somehow?
bluets's Avatar bluets 06:54 PM 10-15-2009
for the short future, there's a little goodie here:
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1907016/biochem-map.pdf

(with all my annotations to date)
bluets's Avatar bluets 07:15 PM 10-15-2009
and here was another gem i found a few months ago: http://www.scribd.com/doc/11581556/c...ted-Color-Text

(the pages are not all in order)

but here's what the above reference says in regard to liver function tests:

A request for a liver function test will usually include results for bilirubin, aminotransferases (ASTs), and alkaline phosphate (ALT). Raised activities of AST and ALT indicate hepatocellular damage. Increased bilirubin concentration and increased ALT activity indicate the presence of cholestasis, a blockage in bile flow. Serial use of LFTs is of most value in following the progress or resolution of liver disease. Measurement of gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase can give an indication of hepatocellular enzyme induction due to drugs or alcohol.

There's more, but that's the highlighted box.

All that said, dh had LFT done a few years ago (I can't remember why exactly) and it came back with raised enzyme levels. Went to see a specialist a few times... some more blood work... nothing. Nada. The last time he had blood work done, it all came back as normal. I don't think these tests are useful unless there is something really dramatic occurring. At the same time, if you suspect liver issues, you might consider having these basic tests done (they're prolly covered by insurance anyway).

As for milk thistle, this is almost a glowing report coming from governmental sources: http://www.ahrq.gov/CLINIC/epcsums/milktsum.htm

Can you encapsulate it and choke it down that way?
lil_miss_understood's Avatar lil_miss_understood 07:36 PM 10-15-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
Oh wait! you have a problem with arsenic, right? LEt me make your head really spin.

Arsenic poisoning is due to inhibition of enzymes that require lipoic acid as a cofactor, including pyruvate dehydrogenase, alpha-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase, and branched-chain alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase. Arsenite (the trivalent for of arsenic) forms a stable complex with the thiol (-SH) groups of lipoic acid, making that compound unavailable to serve as a coenzyme. When it binds to lipoic acid in the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex, pyruvate (and then lactate) accumulate. This affects the brain, causing neurological disturbances, and if severe enough, death.

And here's a study on Arsenic homeopathy therapy: http://www.homeopathy.org/research/basic/Khuda-1.pdf
Ok, wait.. So saying all of that... Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would then lead to oxidation problems right? Like excess superoxide and possibly peroxidation of vital organs? Which would then lead to a depletion of BH4. Have I got that right?
tanyalynn's Avatar tanyalynn 07:45 PM 10-15-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
I don't think these tests are useful unless there is something really dramatic occurring. At the same time, if you suspect liver issues, you might consider having these basic tests done (they're prolly covered by insurance anyway).
This was my experience. I mean, lots of stuff wrong with my health that in a lot of ways came back to liver function, but I was nowhere near the liver function panel test limits. DH _was_ near a couple of them, which is odd, because overall I'd say he was a lot healthier than I was.

I think Great Plains has some phase 1/phase 2 liver function tests, but those are just measuring basic pathways, and I don't know how being pregnant would affect the interpretation. I don't know if that's really the level of detail you need anyway.

Sorry that your DH isn't onboard. My DH was happy leaving all the decision-making up to me; I don't know how to convince someone who's sold on conventional medicine, haven't done a great job, even by example as I get healthier, to my dad.

I wish I could say I understand the liver stuff better, but I don't. And liver health is a big issue for us, and I still don't know how it should be quantified or really explained.
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 10:32 PM 10-15-2009
Okay, trying to figure out how to make the head stop spinning. According to wikipedia, lipoic acid is an antioxidant and can increase cellular uptake of glucose.

There is some relationship between biotinidase and lipoic acid.

With all this antioxidant theory for myself, one thing that's puzzling me is that it hasn't been until the past couple years that I've ever seen anything resembling a vitamin C deficiency in me - rarely bruising at all, very few stretch marks, and, uh... I'm blanking. It seems like if this antioxidant theory is going to hold water, I need to figure that one out. It also seems highly relevant to the whole ligament/connective tissue issue.

I'm actually waiting on the results of a liver function panel now. They should be in, I could email and ask for them... I had two done at the beginning of the accutane, and no issues. I had another liver function test (urine, I think) done a year and a half ago, and it came back normal - but I think it was testing stuff like sulfation, which I agree, isn't much of an issue.

Oh, and back to the psych stuff (did I mention my head isn't on quite straight today?) It's funny that dh was talking therapy last night, since yesterday afternoon, my mom and I were chatting about how I've always had weird mood issues - fine one day and horrible the next - and how she never wanted to put me in therapy because it didn't seem to have any correlation with life events, etc. It really seemed like something that was totally out of my control, to the point that I had an IgG allergy panel done when I was in 5th grade. So *something* here has been going on even pre-accutane, and I don't know how to piece that in either. I wonder if it could have to do with random art chemicals my mom was exposed to in the 70s...

Blah. I just want it fixed. And no, I can't put into words or a testable hypothesis what 'it' is.
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 10:56 PM 10-15-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
funny you should mention fructose... fructose metabolizes into fructose 1-phosphate, which can then become one of: fructose 1,6-bisphosphate, or glyceraldehyde, or dihydroxyacetone phosphate. F-1,6-bisP can also breakdown into glyceraldehyde or can form fructose-6P. The latter can be shunted into that glycosaminoglycans/glycoprotein/glycolipid pathway. You know, those things that contribute to cartilage...

My scanner's email feature is busted, but I'll scan and recompose this nifty map I have of the various cellular functions. (The only good thing about this stupid text for clinical biochem)

Oh wait! you have a problem with arsenic, right? LEt me make your head really spin.

Arsenic poisoning is due to inhibition of enzymes that require lipoic acid as a cofactor, including pyruvate dehydrogenase, alpha-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase, and branched-chain alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase. Arsenite (the trivalent for of arsenic) forms a stable complex with the thiol (-SH) groups of lipoic acid, making that compound unavailable to serve as a coenzyme. When it binds to lipoic acid in the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex, pyruvate (and then lactate) accumulate. This affects the brain, causing neurological disturbances, and if severe enough, death.
Little bits at a time

So what you're saying is that maybe the connective tissue/glycosaminoglycans issue stems from me not handling fructose well?

That's a pretty cool chart. If only I could print it out big enough to read it... Maybe a trip to kinko's is in order.

Hmm, and maybe an OAT is in order to see if I'm accumulating pyruvate?
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 11:23 PM 10-15-2009
Accumulation of lactate... What would the symptoms of that be? Muscle soreness like during exercise, by chance?

http://judoinfo.com/soreness.htm
"Contrary to popular opinion, lactate or, as it is often called, lactic acid buildup is not responsible for the muscle soreness felt in the days following strenuous exercise. Rather, the production of lactate and other metabolites during extreme exertion results in the burning sensation often felt in active muscles, though which exact metabolites are involved remains unclear."

ETA:
Okay. Explain me today. The past few days I've been getting some serious adrenal symptoms like I haven't had since increasing mag and then biotin. The two variables I can think of are reduced mag and progressing pregnancy increasing need for biotin. Yesterday, I was tired all day, didn't want to move fast with dd at the park, and ready to fall asleep. I got a little more mag last night (possibly still too low, though, I'm playing the bowel tolerance dance ) and today I'm even more tired and just moving makes my muscles ache. Not day after muscle soreness, but burning I'm at the end of a weight lifting set ache.

Sounds like this is a slow buildup of arsenic or *something* breaking that pathway. The tiredness and muscle stuff, I've been controlling with a tiny bit of iodine (400mcg up to ~5mg). Could that be related somehow? I *have* dropped the dose a bit in the past week or so. The adrenals I was assuming was a mag issue. Maybe it's actually an increased arsenic exposure thing, and I might be able to use it as a clue to figure out the source?

Oh yeah, and isn't one of the symptoms of arsenic impaired movement of mag? Or is that just antimony...?
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 11:43 PM 10-15-2009
Oh yeah, and I wanted to ask the ALA experts... it seems like that would be a really appropriate supp to combat the effects of arsenic here, but there's the worry that it'll mobilize stuff, right? Is there any chance that I'm clean enough that it might actually be safe for me? Or is that just wishful thinking?
tanyalynn's Avatar tanyalynn 01:09 AM 10-16-2009
ALA is excellent at removing arsenic. Arsenic was in the red in DD's hair test, so I figure it's our #2 problem, and I'm counting on the ALA to get rid of it. But yeah, my vote is that you _really_ do not want to do that while pregnant (or nursing). It pulls it from wherever and it gets into your bloodstream, and even if you had lots of detox bandwidth to excrete it, some will get to the baby, it's got to circulate in your blood for a while in order to physically move to get out. And that's separate from the arsenic and mercury and I forget what other metals ALA mobilizes that will be dropped, just by happenstance, and then will be circulating separate from any ALA.

I'd be especially worried while in-utero development is happening, there's a lot of delicate wiring going on in the brain, you don't want to mess with that. DS had odd stuff like coordination issues, I think something was really wired improperly in his brain and I _think_ that had to happen prenatally, and although we clearly had more quantity problems going on, the timing is such that you really don't know what's developing on the day you decide to try it. Plus, these things are all a matter of degree. My kids have issues, but not actual delays, but I don't know how much leeway we would've had before something like that could've happened. So how much to cause one area of problem, or just to dampen down potential in LO?

Need to run, DS is coughing, won't accept DH as the one to get him to sleep. May be a long night here, hope yours is better!
bluets's Avatar bluets 01:42 AM 10-16-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Little bits at a time

So what you're saying is that maybe the connective tissue/glycosaminoglycans issue stems from me not handling fructose well?
yes.

Quote:
That's a pretty cool chart. If only I could print it out big enough to read it... Maybe a trip to kinko's is in order.
the book itself is pretty cheap: Clinical Biochemistry made ridiculously simple
(it's really awful but the map is cool)

Quote:
Hmm, and maybe an OAT is in order to see if I'm accumulating pyruvate?
might be useful. if arsenic is there and causing a problem, it's slowing down the Krebs cycle so other compounds will be out of whack too.
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 02:46 AM 10-16-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
ALA is excellent at removing arsenic. Arsenic was in the red in DD's hair test, so I figure it's our #2 problem, and I'm counting on the ALA to get rid of it. But yeah, my vote is that you _really_ do not want to do that while pregnant (or nursing). It pulls it from wherever and it gets into your bloodstream, and even if you had lots of detox bandwidth to excrete it, some will get to the baby, it's got to circulate in your blood for a while in order to physically move to get out. And that's separate from the arsenic and mercury and I forget what other metals ALA mobilizes that will be dropped, just by happenstance, and then will be circulating separate from any ALA.

I'd be especially worried while in-utero development is happening, there's a lot of delicate wiring going on in the brain, you don't want to mess with that. DS had odd stuff like coordination issues, I think something was really wired improperly in his brain and I _think_ that had to happen prenatally, and although we clearly had more quantity problems going on, the timing is such that you really don't know what's developing on the day you decide to try it. Plus, these things are all a matter of degree. My kids have issues, but not actual delays, but I don't know how much leeway we would've had before something like that could've happened. So how much to cause one area of problem, or just to dampen down potential in LO?
Yeah, I'd totally be worried about mobilizing stuff and moving it around and it's definitely not a good idea while pregnant. But did you see my hair test results? I'm really not high in anything but uranium. Including arsenic - it's firmly in the green range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
might be useful. if arsenic is there and causing a problem, it's slowing down the Krebs cycle so other compounds will be out of whack too.
I've been thinking about this one, and how it relates to thyroid stuff. My main 'thyroid' symptoms are fatigue and low body temperature. Could that potentially all be explained by a slowed down krebs cycle? In labs, everything comes back normal range, but free T3 is on the low end. What is it that the thyroid is regulating that makes you tired? What is it that's changing your body temperature?
tanyalynn's Avatar tanyalynn 03:02 AM 10-16-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Yeah, I'd totally be worried about mobilizing stuff and moving it around and it's definitely not a good idea while pregnant. But did you see my hair test results? I'm really not high in anything but uranium. Including arsenic - it's firmly in the green range.
But how much more mercury and arsenic does your LO need in their brain? I mean, not to be argumentative, but it's not safe in any dose, and this time period is riskier than any other (in the general sense of pregnancy, since I'd argue 1st tri is worse than 2nd, etc).

I'm not trying to shoot down ideas willy-nilly, really I'm not. I'm coming from the perspective of not knowing what long-term, subtle, permanent problems my kids may have because of this, especially DS since I think his coordination problem was along these lines (I hope fixed, but I can't know). There's no point in dwelling on it, so I basically don't, but I'd be willfully naive if I never considered that some of the things that have happened to them are irreversible, and the exposure prenatally was riskier than the post-natal. There's just no safe dose, at least not that I know of. I had mixed emotions when DD started learning to read right after a round of ALA--the unknowns as to how this has affected her cognitive development, maybe permanently, it's stressful.

With mood issues (I hadn't seen your hair test before this I don't think, and may I say yay! on all the low toxic metals, that's a nice thing), I'd look more at low-dose lithium (you mentioned it earlier, I'm just agreeing). I've never read on it, even though DD was almost as low as you (at 0.004 vs <0.004), so maybe I should. But I don't know much about _what_ lithium does.

Does it matter that lithium is in the same column as sodium and potassium in the periodic table? re: lithium so often being low (and obviously not just in metal toxic people) but somehow fitting into adrenal health?

I agree ALA could be helpful, it does seem like it's _an_ answer, but I just can't see a way to make it safe right now.
bluets's Avatar bluets 12:09 PM 10-16-2009
this might be helpful for thyroid function: http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter3/3b/3b-frame.htm

have to prepare for a meeting and get some stuff done for deadlines... happy reading.
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 12:45 PM 10-16-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
But how much more mercury and arsenic does your LO need in their brain? I mean, not to be argumentative, but it's not safe in any dose, and this time period is riskier than any other (in the general sense of pregnancy, since I'd argue 1st tri is worse than 2nd, etc).

I'm not trying to shoot down ideas willy-nilly, really I'm not. I'm coming from the perspective of not knowing what long-term, subtle, permanent problems my kids may have because of this, especially DS since I think his coordination problem was along these lines (I hope fixed, but I can't know). There's no point in dwelling on it, so I basically don't, but I'd be willfully naive if I never considered that some of the things that have happened to them are irreversible, and the exposure prenatally was riskier than the post-natal. There's just no safe dose, at least not that I know of. I had mixed emotions when DD started learning to read right after a round of ALA--the unknowns as to how this has affected her cognitive development, maybe permanently, it's stressful.

With mood issues (I hadn't seen your hair test before this I don't think, and may I say yay! on all the low toxic metals, that's a nice thing), I'd look more at low-dose lithium (you mentioned it earlier, I'm just agreeing). I've never read on it, even though DD was almost as low as you (at 0.004 vs <0.004), so maybe I should. But I don't know much about _what_ lithium does.

Does it matter that lithium is in the same column as sodium and potassium in the periodic table? re: lithium so often being low (and obviously not just in metal toxic people) but somehow fitting into adrenal health?

I agree ALA could be helpful, it does seem like it's _an_ answer, but I just can't see a way to make it safe right now.
And I'm not trying to push it either, just understand there's a reason I asked . I hadn't considered potential stored stuff being shuffled around - somehow, I was/am just assuming all my metals are current exposures. Probably not a safe assumption, oops.

So looking at the big picture (haven't read your link yet, bluets), it would appear that somehow, my lipoic acid levels could be low and that that could account for my fatigue/thyroid-like symptoms. The logical thing would be to increase those levels, but that's not necessarily safe. So then the question is, what *is* a safe way to address that, cause it doesn't seem like low ATP and lactate buildup are any safe way to grow a baby, either. Which means... Figure out why the iodine is helping now and work that angle?
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 01:17 PM 10-16-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
this might be helpful for thyroid function: http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter3/3b/3b-frame.htm

have to prepare for a meeting and get some stuff done for deadlines... happy reading.
Okay, how do you come up with all these great links!? Thanks

So, that article/chapter talks about fructose in the liver inhibiting conversion of T4 to T3, and how that results in increased plasma lactic acid levels. And how increasing TSH could increase T4, which could increase T3, but that doesn't happen, because it's an adaptive mechanism for the liver to reduce circulating T3 like in times of starvation.
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...act/266/5/E768
Did I get around to mentioning that my T4 levels are high-normal, while my T3 numbers are low-normal, and I've been suspecting poor conversion!?

Must figure out the fructose link, if it is in fact what I'm reacting to (I think I'll try to get some glucose tablets, or get dh to swipe me some sweet tarts if I'm not too afraid of the colors...) and how to fix my fructose metabolism.

Hmm, here's an interesting question. If lipoic acid is so scary, and it turns out that fixing this whole issue results in my body making more useable lipoic acid, is that just as scary as trying it as a supp?
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 01:43 PM 10-16-2009
fructose disorders

Trying to figure me out. I've got low triglycerides, high serum magnesium, and presumably high pyruvate and lactic acid - it's worse today, I feel like I've had a huge workout and am out of breath from walking across the room There's got to be something here!

fructose/triglyceride pathways
bluets's Avatar bluets 05:52 PM 10-16-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Okay, how do you come up with all these great links!? Thanks
google with a little dash of luck. maybe it's also a bit of experience (you have no idea what i'm asked to look up on an almost daily basis).

Quote:
Hmm, here's an interesting question. If lipoic acid is so scary, and it turns out that fixing this whole issue results in my body making more useable lipoic acid, is that just as scary as trying it as a supp?
my intuition says that making more != popping a pill. besides, how do you know what dosage to start taking? in the body, you might be looking at a teeny tiny increase, but, in the right spot and at the right time, it would be almost immediately available. by mouth... well, it has a much more circuitous route to get to its destination in the mitochondria in the cells.
bluets's Avatar bluets 05:56 PM 10-16-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
fructose disorders

Trying to figure me out. I've got low triglycerides, high serum magnesium, and presumably high pyruvate and lactic acid - it's worse today, I feel like I've had a huge workout and am out of breath from walking across the room There's got to be something here!

fructose/triglyceride pathways
yeah, fructose disorders were way back at the beginning... must go back to review. but that pathway picture is exactly what i said a few posts ago

i'm still also trying to figure out exactly WHERE magnesium is used. i've seen references that it is a cofactor for 300+ biochemical reactions in the body. in my oh-so-copious spare time (haha) i'd like to map those locations onto that spiffy cellular process map....

my break is over... back to begging for congressional pork.
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 06:07 PM 10-16-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
yeah, fructose disorders were way back at the beginning... must go back to review. but that pathway picture is exactly what i said a few posts ago

i'm still also trying to figure out exactly WHERE magnesium is used. i've seen references that it is a cofactor for 300+ biochemical reactions in the body. in my oh-so-copious spare time (haha) i'd like to map those locations onto that spiffy cellular process map....
The big link that I'm seeing is Mg-ATP, and that somehow it's likely that I don't have enough of the ATP side of things and so my serum Mg is high since it doesn't have anything to bind to.

And yeah, I'm a visual learner. I need to see these things mapped out for them to make any sense to me at all.
bluets's Avatar bluets 10:35 PM 10-16-2009
so i caught a glimpse that magnesium decreases triglycerides because it is needed as a cofactor in a pathway involving HMG-CoA reductase. so those results shouldn't be shocking.

check out the blurb about pyruvate carboxylase deficiency here: http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec19/ch296/ch296d.html

it jumps out because you've mentioned biotinidase but i don't recall if you're deficient or overly abundant in that enzyme.

and if you want to find out more info about specific enzymes, check out "BRENDA": http://www.brenda-enzymes.org/index.php4 -- it does include links to articles in pubmed (along with my favorite, 2D and 3D structures where available). i haven't figured out how to really use it yet.
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 01:44 AM 10-17-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluets View Post
check out the blurb about pyruvate carboxylase deficiency here: http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec19/ch296/ch296d.html

it jumps out because you've mentioned biotinidase but i don't recall if you're deficient or overly abundant in that enzyme.
I've got a partial biotinidase deficiency. Now that I look at it a bit closer, that can sometimes cause multiple carboxylase deficiency.
The carboxylases are (and all three need Mg ):
pyruvate carboxylase - converts pyruvate to oxaloacetate, so plugs pyruvate into krebs cycle
acetyl coA carboxylase - initiates fatty acid synthesis
propional coA carboxylase - breaks down propionyl coA, which comes from the amino acids isoleucine, threonine and methionine, and "from the breakdown of odd-number-chain fatty acids found, for example, in fish." (Gropper)

Hmm... This is looking really likely. Maybe my PUFA issue is actually an odd chain fatty acid issue?

To test propional coA carboxylase deficiency, you can look for increased urine 3HPA and MCA.

Now I'm also wondering if this really could actually be genetic for me...
WuWei's Avatar WuWei 07:10 PM 10-17-2009
Theloose's Avatar Theloose 12:52 AM 10-18-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Hi Pat, we've missed you!

Wow, very, very cool links! Of course, I don't fit their descriptions with my seemingly good methylation, but still. That's probably just me being weird I think I might need me a mindmeister account!
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