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Old 03-04-2009, 03:30 PM
 
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From wiki on Cysteine:
Quote:
# Vegan sources: red peppers, garlic, onions, broccoli, brussels sprouts, oats, granola, wheat germ
Are you avoiding those?

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Old 03-04-2009, 03:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
From wiki on Cysteine:

Are you avoiding those?
For me, I eat most all of those things (not wheat germ as we are GF, and only homemade granola for the same reason). Hmm ... I wonder if for me, it goes back to inadequate levels of stomach acid not breaking down foods properly so they can be utilized?

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Old 03-04-2009, 03:37 PM
 
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And did you notice that the precursor to BH4 is GTP- a purine again?

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Old 03-04-2009, 04:02 PM
 
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It really sounds like your body is starved for IMP because that's the purine I keep going back to. I just found out that it would also explain why your ATP is low (causing it to be difficult to synthesize cholesterol), since a precursor to ATP is AMP which can be converted to IMP. The only other way to produce ATP is through ADP which can also be converted to AMP.
Here's the kicker: converting AMP to IMP frees an ammonia group.

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Old 03-04-2009, 04:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
It really sounds like your body is starved for IMP because that's the purine I keep going back to. I just found out that it would also explain why your ATP is low (causing it to be difficult to synthesize cholesterol), since a precursor to ATP is AMP which can be converted to IMP. The only other way to produce ATP is through ADP which can also be converted to AMP.
Here's the kicker: converting AMP to IMP frees an ammonia group.
So, what does this mean in plain English to those who don't yet have their biochem of nutrition book?

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Old 03-04-2009, 04:45 PM
 
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So, what does this mean in plain English to those who don't yet have their biochem of nutrition book?
I don't have one either.
I haven't entirely figured out what it means yet. I'm working on it.
For now, the best solution I can see is the same one whoMe has come up with which is really just a band-aid, if I'm right: to decrease the consumption of BH4 by ammonia by supplementing cysteine.

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
From wiki on Cysteine:
Vegan sources: red peppers, garlic, onions, broccoli, brussels sprouts, oats, granola, wheat germ
Are you avoiding those?
Funny, dd loves all those foods, ignoring the gluten. Even the red peppers, which I am definitely not a fan of. Of course, she loves all foods...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
It really sounds like your body is starved for IMP because that's the purine I keep going back to. I just found out that it would also explain why your ATP is low (causing it to be difficult to synthesize cholesterol), since a precursor to ATP is AMP which can be converted to IMP. The only other way to produce ATP is through ADP which can also be converted to AMP.
Here's the kicker: converting AMP to IMP frees an ammonia group.
If it all comes down to supp'ing cysteine, I'm going to ignore all that until I actually need to learn it But it's good to know there may be more science behind it all

Supping cysteine takes a huge burden off of the transsulfuration process. It cuts down the amount of ammonia produced (benefiting dopamine, serotonin and my thyroid) and it frees up resources for making glutathione (a detox pathway) which should lower my need for vitamin C (not that I've been meeting that need...). Along with B5, it increases coA, which should make my adrenals happy and increase my cholesterol to a more reasonable level.

I just got back with the supp. I'm totally stoked. Now to figure out dosage...

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:23 PM
 
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Funny, dd loves all those foods, ignoring the gluten. Even the red peppers, which I am definitely not a fan of. Of course, she loves all foods...

If it all comes down to supp'ing cysteine, I'm going to ignore all that until I actually need to learn it But it's good to know there may be more science behind it all

Supping cysteine takes a huge burden off of the transsulfuration process. It cuts down the amount of ammonia produced (benefiting dopamine, serotonin and my thyroid) and it frees up resources for making glutathione (a detox pathway) which should lower my need for vitamin C (not that I've been meeting that need...). Along with B5, it increases coA, which should make my adrenals happy and increase my cholesterol to a more reasonable level.

I just got back with the supp. I'm totally stoked. Now to figure out dosage...
You know, I was just looking at the Purine metabolism cycle again, and realized it's possible that just supplementing the cysteine may solve most of your problems. I'll show you how.
The 2 Purines (I've seen) are ADE (adenine) and GUA (guanine).

ADE -> AMP-> ADP -> ATP -> cholesterol (low)
GUA-> GMP-> GDP-> GTP -> BH4 (low)

There are a couple of ways to convert ADE into GTP- the easiest that I'm seeing involves producing yet more ammonia though, exacerbating the problem...
So by supplementing cysteine, there's no longer ammonia being produced to eat up BH4, which prevents you from converting ADE into GTP which prevents the need to continue that vicious little circle...
Does that make sense?

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just looked up tyrosine in my biochem book.

It's made from phenylalanine using BH4. So likely in limited supply.
It's converted to dopamine (BH4 again), and thyroid hormones, and melanin, and... it makes glutamate from alpha-ketoglutarate! I bet if my a-kg were high (due to transsulfuration and impaired Krebs cycle (cause of lack of coA)), it would steal a disproportionate amount of the tyrosine, leaving less for making all that other important goodness!

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
I just looked up tyrosine in my biochem book.

It's made from phenylalanine using BH4. So likely in limited supply.
It's converted to dopamine (BH4 again), and thyroid hormones, and melanin, and... it makes glutamate from alpha-ketoglutarate! I bet if my a-kg were high (due to transsulfuration and impaired Krebs cycle (cause of lack of coA)), it would steal a disproportionate amount of the tyrosine, leaving less for making all that other important goodness!
Wouldn't the easy way to fix that be with cysteine again?
Impaired Krebs from lack of coA, coA needs cysteine to be made, right?

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
You know, I was just looking at the Purine metabolism cycle again, and realized it's possible that just supplementing the cysteine may solve most of your problems. I'll show you how.
The 2 Purines (I've seen) are ADE (adenine) and GUA (guanine).

ADE -> AMP-> ADP -> ATP -> cholesterol (low)
GUA-> GMP-> GDP-> GTP -> BH4 (low)

There are a couple of ways to convert ADE into GTP- the easiest that I'm seeing involves producing yet more ammonia though, exacerbating the problem...
So by supplementing cysteine, there's no longer ammonia being produced to eat up BH4, which prevents you from converting ADE into GTP which prevents the need to continue that vicious little circle...
Does that make sense?
I *think* so...
How exciting would that be?
read the comment here

But then there's the question of how did I get into this mess in the first place? Could it have been going on my whole life? Is this where the coA-synthesizing gut bacteria come in, or am I fine and totally healthy, just stuck in a horrendous cycle?

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wouldn't the easy way to fix that be with cysteine again?
Impaired Krebs from lack of coA, coA needs cysteine to be made, right?
Yup, I'm adding fuel to my fire If this doesn't work, I'm going to be REALLY disappointed!

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:38 PM
 
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We did genetic analysis with dr. Yasko (holistichealth.com - check out the basics in the discussion group) and found that she has a CBS C699T mutation (excess ammonia making overloads the transulfuration pathway and depletes tetrahydrobiopterin creating Atypical PKU). She also has MTHFr A1298 mutation which restricts her making tetrahydrobiopterin.
I'm guessing this is what you want me to see?
Isn't that the same MTHFR mutation you have? and have you had your CBS gene tested?

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just that she was in an endless loop involving tyrosine as well. And fixed it in less than a week(!!!).

I haven't had my CBS gene tested, but based on the fact that I'm not normally a chocolate person, I think I've got a slight upregulation.

And yeah, I've got one copy of MTHFR A1298C

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Old 03-04-2009, 05:55 PM
 
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My guess would be that your CBS gene would test the same as her daughter's.
Tetrahydrobiopterin is BH4.

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Old 03-04-2009, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post

I'm going to go buy NAC as soon as we're done with breakfast, and hope for the best!
Cysteine is found in a variety of foods including poultry, yogurt, egg yolks, red peppers, garlic, onions, broccoli, Brussel sprouts, oats, and wheat germ.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...trient&dbid=54

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Old 03-04-2009, 07:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
It really sounds like your body is starved for IMP because that's the purine I keep going back to. I just found out that it would also explain why your ATP is low (causing it to be difficult to synthesize cholesterol), since a precursor to ATP is AMP which can be converted to IMP. The only other way to produce ATP is through ADP which can also be converted to AMP.
Here's the kicker: converting AMP to IMP frees an ammonia group.
:That is some good homeopathy stuff you've been taking.


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Old 03-04-2009, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Cysteine is found in a variety of foods including poultry, yogurt, egg yolks, red peppers, garlic, onions, broccoli, Brussel sprouts, oats, and wheat germ.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...trient&dbid=54

Pat
But is it enough to break a nasty, nasty cycle? And are they high in cysteine in proportion to methionine?

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Old 03-04-2009, 07:20 PM
 
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frees up resources for making glutathione (a detox pathway) which should lower my need for vitamin C (not that I've been meeting that need...). Along with B5, it increases coA, which should make my adrenals happy and increase my cholesterol to a more reasonable level.
The anti-oxidant glutathione is composed of the amino acids glycine, glutamic acid, and cysteine. Foods that increase glutathione levels in the body include cruciferous vegetables (Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage, kale, bok choy, cress, mustard, horseradish, turnips, rutabagas, kohlrabi), avocados, ripe seeds of green beans, red beets, the herb rosemary, grape seed extract, bilberry extract, curcumin found in turmeric, whey protein powder, and Pycnogenol from pine bark. A food that is particularly high in glutathione precursers is whey made from milk.
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/longevity.htm

Vitamin C elevates red blood cell glutathione in healthy adults. Fresh fruits and vegetables provide excellent levels of glutathione. Per serving, asparagus, avocadoes, asparagus, squash, okra, cauliflower, broccoli, potatoes, spinach, walnuts, garlic, and raw tomatoes have the highest glutathione content compared to other vegetables and are particularly rich dietary sources of glutathione.

The authors of this study concluded "it is not feasible to increase circulating glutathione to a clinically beneficial extent by the oral administrating of a single dose of 3 g of glutathione."
http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/D...utathione.html


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Old 03-04-2009, 07:22 PM
 
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I just looked up tyrosine in my biochem book.
<snip>, it would steal a disproportionate amount of the tyrosine, leaving less for making all that other important goodness!
tyrosine- The action of this amino acid in brain functions is clear with its link to dopamine as well as nor epinephrine, but it is also helpful in suppressing the appetite and reducing body fat, production of skin and hair pigment, the proper functioning of the thyroid as well as the pituitary and adrenal gland.

It is also the precursor amino acid for the thyroid gland hormone thyroxin, and a defect in this may result in hypothyroidism. A deficiency may also have symptoms of low blood pressure, low body temperature (including cold hands and feet) and "restless leg syndrome".

L-tyrosine is found in many protein containing foods, such as meats, dairy products, fish, wheat and oats. Both norepinephrine and dopamine are manufactured from the amino acids tyrosine or phenylalanine in the presence of adequate oxygen, vitamins B3, B6, and C, folic acid, iron, and copper. Food sources of tyrosine include almonds, avocados, bananas, dairy products, lima beans, pumpkin seeds, and sesame seeds.

http://www.healthvitaminsguide.com/a...s/tyrosine.htm
http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/proteins.html
http://www.nutritional-supplements-h...ine-foods.html


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i am subbing here because i am really really trying to understand all of this stuff.. but not so far.. i will probably be posting all of my questions soon
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Old 03-04-2009, 07:29 PM
 
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But is it enough to break a nasty, nasty cycle? And are they high in cysteine in proportion to methionine?
I'm hunting, I found this cheery note:"
WARNINGS
Excessive intake of cysteine can result in liver damage, kidney stone formation, or even some forms of schizophrenia."




Animal protein is known to be higher in sulfur amino acids such as cysteine than vegetable proteins; therefore strict amino acid-imbalanced vegetarian diets may lead to poor sulfur amino acid intake and deficiency signs. Of the vegetable proteins, beans are generally higher in sulfur amino acids than grains. Therefore, a balanced vegetable protein of grains and beans would be useful in providing adequate cysteine intake in the diet.

http://www.springboard4health.com/no..._cysteine.html





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Old 03-04-2009, 07:31 PM
 
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Pat,
You just explained why my body is in love with guacamole and why I could eat asparagus until Armageddon.
Thanks!

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This is an explanatory discussion of sulfate, cysteine, methionine, etc. http://books.google.com/books?id=xo7...sult#PPA427,M1


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Old 03-04-2009, 07:35 PM
 
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I'm hunting, I found this cheery note:"
WARNINGS
Excessive intake of cysteine can result in liver damage, kidney stone formation, or even some forms of schizophrenia."




Animal protein is known to be higher in sulfur amino acids such as cysteine than vegetable proteins; therefore strict amino acid-imbalanced vegetarian diets may lead to poor sulfur amino acid intake and deficiency signs. Of the vegetable proteins, beans are generally higher in sulfur amino acids than grains. Therefore, a balanced vegetable protein of grains and beans would be useful in providing adequate cysteine intake in the diet.

http://www.springboard4health.com/no..._cysteine.html





Pat
NAC is actually cystine, if I understand things correctly, which can be moved around the body safely (unlike cysteine). It is comprised of 2 sulfur molecules and 2 cysteine molecules and the sulfur molecules are removed from the cysteine molecules only when the cysteine is needed.

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Old 03-04-2009, 07:36 PM
 
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CS, and Ellasmama, you all read this too about the inclusion of Sulfate for adequate growth. http://books.google.com/books?id=xo7...sult#PPA427,M1

(page 427)

Breastmilk is low in sulfates. (page 433)


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Old 03-04-2009, 07:39 PM
 
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Page 431, has a list of sulfate (thus cysteine and methionine) in foods: http://books.google.com/books?id=xo7...sult#PPA431,M1


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Old 03-04-2009, 07:41 PM
 
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Pat,
You just explained why my body is in love with guacamole and why I could eat asparagus until Armageddon.
Thanks!
Yeah that! (And conversely, why DH is the opposite, since we are apparently biochemical dipoles...)

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Old 03-04-2009, 07:43 PM
 
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Heat (cooking) lowers the cysteine amounts in foods. (page 439)

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Old 03-04-2009, 07:51 PM
 
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NAC is actually cystine, if I understand things correctly, which can be moved around the body safely (unlike cysteine). It is comprised of 2 sulfur molecules and 2 cysteine molecules and the sulfur molecules are removed from the cysteine molecules only when the cysteine is needed.
NAC is a chelator of heavy metals. http://www.healingdaily.com/oral-chelation/N-acetyl-cysteine%20(NAC)-for-detoxification-what-it-is.htm
It also increases the excretion of zinc and other essential minerals. http://www.advance-health.com/nacetylcysteine.html

Few food sources of cystine:
http://top200foodsources.com/Nutrients/Cystine/507/g

Per wiki,
NAC has been shown to reduce the symptoms of both schizophrenia[15] and bipolar disorder[16] in two placebo controlled trials. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcysteine


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