what causes midline defects? - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-22-2009, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Word on the street is that midline defects are caused by a deficiency of folate and vitamin A.

I've found plenty of things that point to high homocysteine, which could easily happen with folate deficiency. Where does the vitamin A link come in?

And while we're at it, any guesses on the variable of why one person gets tongue tie while another gets a heart murmur and another gets a sacral dimple?

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Old 02-22-2009, 02:44 AM
 
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Good questions, and for this one I will try to go off and see what I can turn up.

I don't understand why, exactly, we get the problems we do, but with my kids, it's following the parents--my son's tongue is the same shape as mine (I'm thinking both anterior and posterior ties) while my daughters is pointy like a spear but I think a posterior tie, a copy of my husband (I'm thinking our level of deficiency hasn't gotten horribly worse in the last generation, though the toxic load has certainly jumped). But I don't understand why my husband is one way and I'm another--I really have no idea on that one.

Does it make sense to you that part of this is the degree of deficiency, and whether you have both the extra folate marker and a vitamin A deficiency, as to how many midline issues they'll have and/or how severe your child will be affected? Though I'm not sure I completely buy that one, I think I was pretty darn A deficient (looking back at my diet and seeing what I think is a deficiency through multiple generations and knowing my thyroid was marginal), and the kids don't have as many midline issues as I would've expected.

Anyway, off to see what I can turn up re: vitA and how it really relates to midline stuff.
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Old 02-22-2009, 02:44 AM
 
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Yay. I'm excited about this thread. My guess is that genes express differently in different people... similar to the allergies-asthma-ADHD-autism phenomenon.

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Old 02-22-2009, 03:03 AM
 
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http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...inA/index.html

Seems like there may be something interesting in here, but I really need to get to bed.
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Old 02-22-2009, 03:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Interesting that your link talks about turning genes on and off. Methyl groups do that too.

retinol protects against oral clefts:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/578425_4

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Old 02-22-2009, 03:30 AM
 
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Bummer, that link wants me to be a member. From the front page, it looks like they are only aiming for HCPs... and is it a site someone needs to pay for a subscription to? I could swear I've read stuff on medscape before...
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Old 02-22-2009, 01:36 PM
 
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Dh has documented high homocysteine. I wonder now if I do, as I may have been supplementing extra folic acid when I was tested years ago. So, the result would have been "artificially" normal. And I have a septate uterus, I just remembered!

We all have high histamine, I deduce, based upon history with environmental and dietary reactions. During some periods, I imagine that my vit A and vit D exposures were adequate, along with my folic acid intake. When ds was in utero, I'm sure I ate plenty of vit A (carrots every single day), and got enough vit D from the sun (walking 30-60 minutes outside every day while prego). And dh believes that I took extra folic acid while pregnant ("to be on the safe side"). I don't recall that specifically; but sounds like me and his memory is photographic. And, I know I ate PLENTY of vegetables and meat and milk (measured amounts of each ). Ds has a sacral dimple, and many things point to high homocysteine in him (ASD, OCD, Tourettes, ADHD, teeth issues, food intolerances, etc.), plus family hx of all those genetic low dopamine mental disorders (one of each and more!).

I imagine we'd be dealing with spina bifida or full on autism or Down Syndrome +/- congenital heart defects, otherwise. This diet stuff is fascinating. Our SAD sure doesn't provide adequate protection for these genetic predispositions.

If I knew then, what I know now.


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Old 02-22-2009, 01:44 PM
 
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Dh has documented high homocysteine. I wonder now if I do, as I may have been supplementing extra folic acid when I was tested years ago. So, the result would have been "artificially" normal.

We all have high histamine, I deduce, based upon history with environmental and dietary reactions. During some periods, I imagine that my vit A and vit D exposures were adequate, along with my folic acid intake. When ds was in utero, I'm sure I ate plenty of vit A (carrots every single day),

The one thing I'd add here is that if your gut is off, or if you are deficient in things like zinc and selenium, you won't be able to convert your beta-carotene into A, or if you do, you could be very inefficient. Which is one reason Price's focus on pre-formed fat-soluble vitamins really resonates with me. But it sounds like you ate a lot better with your son than I did with my kids, but I WILL NOT go back and do the guilt thing _again_.

and got enough vit D from the sun (walking 30-60 minutes outside every day while prego). And dh believes that I took extra folic acid while pregnant ("to be on the safe side"). I don't recall that specifically; but sounds like me and his memory is photographic. And, I know I ate PLENTY of vegetables and meat and milk (measured amounts of each ). Ds has a sacral dimple, and many things point to high homocysteine in him (ASD, OCD, Tourettes, ADHD, teeth issues, food intolerances, etc.), plus family hx of all those genetic low dopamine mental disorders (one of each and more!).

I imagine we'd be dealing with spina bifida or full on autism or Down Syndrome +/- congenital heart defects, otherwise. This diet stuff is fascinating. Our SAD sure doesn't provide adequate protection for these genetic predispositions.

If I knew then, what I know now.

Pat
Yeah, I try not to dwell on that part so much. Actually, especially lately, I've been thinking about all the good things I've done, some have definitely been more on the accidental side, but I'm giving myself credit anyway.

But yeah, it sounds like the high homocysteine stuff fits you guys really well.
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Old 02-22-2009, 01:48 PM
 
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my brother has always had intestinal issues, though he claims he doesn't. he was hospitalized when he was about 12, and they said there was an issue with the peristalsis, and something about Vitamin A -- I wonder if it was a deficiency. He also has a little hole right next to one of his ears, almost looks like a piercing in front of his right ear. he's always had it. AND he has Poland's syndrome (missing the pectoral muscle, I believe on his left side). That's bizarre. I wonder if I could get him to get the blood test. Poland's syndrome has to be considered a midline issue. And he has two kids and neither of them got it, even though there's a 50-50 chance of him passing it on (when I had my kids, they said it wasn't even a factor for me, not sure why/why not).

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Old 02-22-2009, 01:50 PM
 
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Did you see that I "remembered" that I have a septate uterus? LOL I forgot.

Quote:
The one thing I'd add here is that if your gut is off, or if you are deficient in things like zinc and selenium, you won't be able to convert your beta-carotene into A, or if you do, you could be very inefficient. Which is one reason Price's focus on pre-formed fat-soluble vitamins really resonates with me. But it sounds like you ate a lot better with your son than I did with my kids, but I WILL NOT go back and do the guilt thing _again_.


This is interesting to note. I'm not certain about zinc and selenium during pregnancy. I read and read about multivitamin supplements. But, some of the "new" information, I was hesitant to embrace. So, zinc may have been in my supp. Doubt that I had adequate selenium. And VERY low fat diet, unfortunately. I was a cardiac nurse.

So, I wonder if I was converting the vit A adequately. ???


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Old 02-22-2009, 05:39 PM
 
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Another one I'm just subbing to for now.

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Old 02-22-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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Wait, I had a dip in my uterus that had to be cut back before getting pregnant, and DS has laryngomalacia - are these related to all this stuff (that I don't fully understand)?

I took my prenatal everyday, but didn't do anything above and beyond nutritionally speaking.
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:00 PM
 
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My DH has an obvious tongue tie and crowded teeth that slant backward.
He also has a STRONG family history of thyroid disease.

With everything we're learning right now about nutrition and genes,
my mind is sort of spinning with all the information. But its good.

This morning I asked him to humor me, and crystal test everything I
put in front of him... a ton of supplements and herbs.

Then I sorted out a weeks worth of supplements for him to take with him,
since he's only home 2 nights a week right now.

I asked him to do it for me, for our next child and for his life.
And he agreed to it, as well as to going through the testing weekly.

Want to know what supplements his body is asking for right now?

milk thistle
niacin
biotin
omega 3
magnesium
iodoral
calcium
molybdenum/selenium/NAC

I expected he would need some adrenal support but I guess not.

I'm excited that he's on board to give this a whirl.
Especially since we're gearing up to TTC this spring...

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Old 02-22-2009, 06:09 PM
 
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Wait, I had a dip in my uterus that had to be cut back before getting pregnant, and DS has laryngomalacia - are these related to all this stuff (that I don't fully understand)?

I took my prenatal everyday, but didn't do anything above and beyond nutritionally speaking.
It's not an issue of "did you eat like cr@p or not" it's really, really not (well, honestly, I felt so bad during my second pregnancy that my diet was not at all good, I was just getting by, but even then there was more going on).

When we start identifying these things in ourselves, we can tell that we started out, as babies, with deficiencies and imbalances, and eating the diet we need to be healthy, PLUS what we need to make up for these imbalances, that's a lot. That's more than a good, reasonable diet and a prenatal. For example--my kids both have high, arched palates, I can feel and see the line down the middle of the roofs of their mouths. I would've thought that was normal and fine, that's what my mouth is like, heck my husband's too, and his health stuff is totally different than mine. My mom's palate is the same. So how many generations has this been going on? Who knows. So it's really not about us not eating great, though changing our diets (and our kids' diets) now is an important step. But I'm finding interesting things here about how to change our diet, specifically for the stuff the kids and I need.

I really don't think the MTHFR gene is an issue for me, but I'm wondering for my husband (though maybe not--his homocysteine was fine when we did bloodwork last year, I'd have to check what he was probably getting in a supplement at the time). The vitamin A thing, and zinc and selenium have definitely been going on for ages in my family (they're all issues for people with problems related to their amalgams and thus their glutathione is low--I can see that going on in my family, now that I'm looking back). So it's very individual.

I am finding this to be a cool place to bounces ideas off other people, and lean a bit on the research of a few (thanks!!!!), but it's definitely with the perspective of looking forward and figuring things out so that when the kids are 18 and about to go off on their own (okay, we'll talk about stuff before then) but I can say hey, in our family, this is the type of stuff we need to keep in our diets to be healthy, go forth and have fun and eat well!
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:49 PM
 
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Tanya - I see what your saying. There's more than just current deficiencies going on here. The work that I do nutritionally now, will hopefully have a positive impact on my generations to follow.

It's interesting to see things like schizophrenia in my and DH's family in a different way (though I really don't understand what that way is.)
All of this stuff is making me connect more and more dots - to be honest it really can be stressful.

you guys are amazing for sharing your knowledge - thank you!
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:25 AM
 
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subbing...

Also want to add... my grandma lived on a farm, and though I'm sure she had a considerable amount of white flour and sweets, she ate lots of home-grown meats, raw milk, etc. She didn't breastfeed, but my mom did. Each generation had something going for them!
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:38 AM
 
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So a heart murmur can also be a midline defect? DS2 had a large head, has the V in his teeth, has trouble pronouncing L's and R's (though he is only 4.5 yrs), and once when I took him to a pediatrician, he said he heard a very slight heart murmur that no one had ever pointed out to me before. Although he said it was nothing to worry about, and told me it was no big deal (and this was a DAN doc and alternative MD).

The odd thing is that I had changed my diet to a more Price/TF diet for DS2's pregnancy. I was also taking CLO, I think. And now I am remembering someone saying on another thread that someone had taken CLO during their pregnancy, the baby had a heart defect, and they really thought it was the CLO. Is that possible? Is that another case of taking something that you think you need, but if certain other pathways are either clogged or not working properly, you can actually make it worse?

ETA: And although DS1 also had a large head, he doesn't have any of the other issues with speech, V in teeth, or heart sounds.
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:52 AM
 
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How does a large head play into this, is that considered a midline defect? I had a big head as a newborn, and it's credited as the reason for my mom's c-section (after days of labor)

Another midline defect:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/9/4144
Quote:
Congenital hypopituitarism, characterized by the deficiency of 2 or more anterior pituitary hormones, is rare, with an incidence of 1 in 100,000 live births (24). Its causes include birth trauma and/or asphyxia, which results in disruption of the pituitary stalk, midline defect syndromes, and mutations of genes encoding pituitary transcription factors (25).

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Old 02-23-2009, 01:11 PM
 
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The only thing I know about big headed babies is that it is something of an autism pre-warning flag (obviously not 100%), and my son (who detoxifies like me and who got a high toxic load from me, skewed towards mercury and probably lesser amts of other heavy metals) has quite the large head--both visually and on growth charts. I hadn't been counting that as a midline issue, although for us, the root cause of nutrition & toxic load, and how they're intertwined, is the same for both. But kiddo #1, who detoxifies like DH (but who got a higher toxic load, most likely) has a normal to small-ish head.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:45 PM
 
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Congenital hypopituitarism, characterized by the deficiency of 2 or more anterior pituitary hormones, is rare, with an incidence of 1 in 100,000 live births (24). Its causes include birth trauma and/or asphyxia, which results in disruption of the pituitary stalk, midline defect syndromes, and mutations of genes encoding pituitary transcription factors (25).
OMG, I have amenorrhea. Will have to read further when DS is not poking me in the face and jumping on me. I remember my mom saying just recently that my birth was traumatic.

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Old 02-24-2009, 12:23 PM
 
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How does a large head play into this, is that considered a midline defect?
I don't remember the exact specifics, PB mentioned this when describing what she said was a picture of "something" and now I can't remember where she said this, but it was in relation to all this tongue tie stuff. Where's cs, I think she might remember?
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:03 PM
 
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I don't remember the exact specifics, PB mentioned this when describing what she said was a picture of "something" and now I can't remember where she said this, but it was in relation to all this tongue tie stuff.
It was actually in relation to homeopathy....not midline stuff. Sorry folks...account difficulties.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:37 PM
 
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It was actually in relation to homeopathy....not midline stuff. Sorry folks...account difficulties.
Ahh, welcome back, I think. Hope all is well with you on the home front.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:38 PM
 
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Ahh, welcome back, I think. Hope all is well with you on the home front.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:47 PM
 
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So if I've got three kids with heart murmurs (which my dr said didn't mean anything), identical twins with small butt dimples and large upper lip frenulums, a son with asthma and dairy intolerance and a very large head, a mom and grandma with celiac and other autoimmune issues... would you say I (and my genetic line) have issues?

And if so, where do I start to help -- ourselves and our future generations?
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So if I've got three kids with heart murmurs (which my dr said didn't mean anything), identical twins with small butt dimples and large upper lip frenulums, a son with asthma and dairy intolerance and a very large head, a mom and grandma with celiac and other autoimmune issues... would you say I (and my genetic line) have issues?

And if so, where do I start to help -- ourselves and our future generations?
I'd say yeah, there are some things here that can improve your health. First step, go through this (but it's still a draft), then start your own thread (I need some attempt at keeping things straight!)

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Old 02-24-2009, 02:31 PM
 
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I don't remember the exact specifics, PB mentioned this
Where is PB? I wrote to her and haven't heard back. Well, it has only been 20 minutes. Anyone heard from her this week?


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Old 02-24-2009, 02:33 PM
 
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That is what I thought.


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Old 06-11-2009, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1097364

If folate and vitamin A are the two major players in midline defects, then it's really, really interesting that UVB light depletes folate and creates vitamin D. Especially when you consider that vitamin D can deplete vitamin A levels. Isn't it?

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