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#1 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 01:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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A bunch of people seem to be identifying this as an issue, lately, so it gets its own thread

My understanding is that sulfur sensitivity happens when the SUOX (sulfoxidation?) enzyme gets overloaded. SUOX converts sulfite into sulfate. Sulfate is one of the detox pathways.

SUOX requires B6 and molybdenum. Too MUCH B6 and/or molybdenum can also create an issue.

Sulfite comes from foods and additives, other forms of sulfur come from foods, and sulfite is also an end product of the transsulfuration sequence. Transsulfuration needs magnesium and B6 (chocolate cravings can mean your body wants to push more down this pathway). It can be REALLY active in some people. To limit it (so as to not produce so much sulfite), you can push the methyl cycle (folate/B12) and limit methionine (a protein, but don't eliminate it completely!)

This isn't our issue, but I'm curious anyway. I'm not an expert yet!

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#2 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:05 AM
 
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This is interesting....I have severe reactions to Sulfa based drugs, and i have been noticing lately reactions to foods high in sulfates.

I get really irritated, and itchy, and my ADHD goes insane.

DD was prescribed antibiotics and she reacted really bad to them. She was running around like a crazy lunatic and wouldn't sleep and biting things.....i wounder if its the same thing.

Looking forward to more info.

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#3 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:05 AM
 
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subbing.... be back tomorrow to read further.

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#4 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:05 AM
 
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Wait- sulfa drugs aren't the same issue, are they?

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#5 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post
This is interesting....I have severe reactions to Sulfa based drugs, and i have been noticing lately reactions to foods high in sulfates.

I get really irritated, and itchy, and my ADHD goes insane.

DD was prescribed antibiotics and she reacted really bad to them. She was running around like a crazy lunatic and wouldn't sleep and biting things.....i wounder if its the same thing.

Looking forward to more info.
Sulfa drugs and most antibiotics are detoxed via acetylation (coenzyme A, requires B5, cysteine, magnesium, biotin, thiamine). Confusing, isn't it?

And just so we're all on the same page, you're probably reacting to sulfITEs in foods, not sulfATEs.

Epsom salt baths (magnesium sulfate) might actually be helpful as a way to bypass the SUOX enzyme.

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#6 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:29 AM
 
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Sulfa drugs and most antibiotics are detoxed via acetylation (coenzyme A, requires B5, cysteine, magnesium, biotin, thiamine). Confusing, isn't it?

And just so we're all on the same page, you're probably reacting to sulfITEs in foods, not sulfATEs.

Epsom salt baths (magnesium sulfate) might actually be helpful as a way to bypass the SUOX enzyme.
Wait wait wait.....im confused.

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#7 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Wait wait wait.....im confused.
That's cause this is quite possibly the most confusing topic on earth :

Intro to detox video


Sulfite and sulfate are two different forms of sulfur. Sulfite is bad and needs to be eliminated. Sulfate is good and can be used to clear out other toxins. Sulfites are a common additive to certain foods.

A little better?

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#8 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:47 AM
 
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That's cause this is quite possibly the most confusing topic on earth

Intro to detox video


Sulfite and sulfate are two different forms of sulfur. Sulfite is bad and needs to be eliminated. Sulfate is good and can be used to clear out other toxins. Sulfites are a common additive to certain foods.

A little better?
Yes!

Hm.....this is really interesting! My dd has had digestive issues since birth really (she had antibiotics in utero and in the NICU) and we cannot pin point the problem! But maybe this is the issue....or maybe its all linked to gether somehow at least. So epsom salt bathes eh?

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#9 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 04:07 AM
 
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I don't know if this is relevant - but it says liver detoxification phase I & II and sulfation (and it's from the blog of the new HCP I found - exciting!): http://cemmed.wordpress.com/
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Interesting topic. Another sub-segment, that I think the kids and I are in, do better on a high-sulfur diet. We haven't actually tested it, we made some guesses early on (it's common in the mercury world to need either a high-sulfur or a low-sulfur diet, separate from the GFCF issue) and given how I've improved (and our massive egg consumption) I think we guessed right. Some folks do great with supplemental MSM, and some feel horrible (and presumably some people don't have a big response one way or the other).

So this would imply that sulfate (like in epsom salts) are our limiting factor in the sulfation process?
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#11 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 12:42 PM
 
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It's been a long time since I really researched all this so I could be wrong, but my understanding is that sulfur in foods is converted into sulfates in the body. So epsom salt baths are often recommended to provide a readily usable source of sulfates. Sulfates can help detox phenols.

I know of one person who figured out her DS' sensitivity to sulfur-containing foods after a reaction to sulfa drugs, so IMO a reaction to sulfa drugs could indicate a problem with sulfur-containing foods or sulfates.

And my DS reactions to sulfur-containing foods AND epsom salts (when I take them), so just because sulfates are useful doesn't mean people don't react to them.

Sulfur sensitivity can be an indicator of problems with oxalates, yet another food chemical.
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#12 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:08 PM
 
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I am new to this group. But I really find the discussion to be very informative. It seems like you guys know a lot about detox pathways. I am working on the same issue. Currently working on my sulfation pathway; therefore, in this regards do you recommend any supplements? Currently I take Mo but it decreases Cu so not sure if I should continue it in the long run?

Thanks in advance!!!
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#13 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:27 PM
 
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Wait, wait, wait. People keep mentioning sulfa drugs, but I was under the impression that they really had nothing to do with sulfur or sulfite sensitivities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kortner View Post
I don't know if this is relevant - but it says liver detoxification phase I & II and sulfation (and it's from the blog of the new HCP I found - exciting!): http://cemmed.wordpress.com/
I found this part interesting:
Quote:
Sulfate is essential in forming the mucin proteins which line the gut walls. These have two main functions–they stop the gut contents from sticking and they block transport of toxins from the gut to the bloodstream. Low plasma sulfate is found in patients with irritable bowel syndrome. Irritable bowel syndrome is identified with symptoms that may include constipation, diarrhea, alternating bowel habit, abdominal bloating and pain, and flatulence.

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#14 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 02:36 PM
 
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I found this part interesting:
Ok so is that part saying that people with IBS need more sulfates or none?

Im completely lost here, this is my first intro to detox pathways so bear with me.

Where can i find a good book on all of this detox stuff?

I am reading the Yeast hanbook right now, and i think its interesting that the first video mentioned that if you have too much bad bacteria they will steal your flags and keep the toxins in your body.....

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Ok so is that part saying that people with IBS need more sulfates or none?
I think it means you need MORE sulfates.

So either you need to do epsom salt baths, or get your body to properly convert sulfites and eat more of them. And how do you do that again?

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Sulfite comes from foods and additives, other forms of sulfur come from foods, and sulfite is also an end product of the transsulfuration sequence.
Not to confuse things, but I thought sulFIDE was the end product of the transulfuration sequence??


But, per my googling, I get confused with all of the sulf...s.

Check out this book "Neurotube Defects" about the transulfuration process. http://books.google.com/books?id=lkh...sult#PPA177,M1

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I think it means you need MORE sulfates.

So either you need to do epsom salt baths, or get your body to properly convert sulfites and eat more of them. And how do you do that again?
hm....by having the correct bacteria in your gut?

Am i close?

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I have no idea... I was kind of hoping someone else would know that answer to that question.

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#19 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I need to go back and read the links, but here's my understanding:

SUOX is an enzyme that converts toxic sulfur forms into helpful sulfur forms. Sulfate is the end product, and it makes up the sulfation detox pathway.

If you're sulfur sensitive, then the SUOX enzyme gets overloaded. Then you have two issues:
-first, too many toxic sulfur compounds floating around
-second, not enough sulfate for detoxing.

The first would show up as a sensitivity to dietary sulfur (eggs, brassicas, wine/sulfites, etc, maybe sulfa drugs?)

The second would show up as difficulty in detoxing adrenal hormones, thyroid hormones, salicylates, food additives, environmental toxins...

If you have the second, but not the first, then sulfur foods will probably be your friends. (I think this is me, BTW)

To address the first, you figure out why your SUOX can't keep up. Reasons that I know of include:
-too much or too little B6
-too much or too little molybdenum
-fast transsulfuration (sulfite or hydrogen sulfide are end products)
-genetic tendency (so nutrients are extra important)

To address the second, epsom salts are helpful because they're preformed sulfate that can be used for detox directly.

Now are we on the same page?

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#20 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
I need to go back and read the links, but here's my understanding:

SUOX is an enzyme that converts toxic sulfur forms into helpful sulfur forms. Sulfate is the end product, and it makes up the sulfation detox pathway.

If you're sulfur sensitive, then the SUOX enzyme gets overloaded. Then you have two issues:
-first, too many toxic sulfur compounds floating around
-second, not enough sulfate for detoxing.

The first would show up as a sensitivity to dietary sulfur (eggs, brassicas, wine/sulfites, etc, maybe sulfa drugs?)

The second would show up as difficulty in detoxing adrenal hormones, thyroid hormones, salicylates, food additives, environmental toxins...

If you have the second, but not the first, then sulfur foods will probably be your friends. (I think this is me, BTW)

To address the first, you figure out why your SUOX can't keep up. Reasons that I know of include:
-too much or too little B6
-too much or too little molybdenum
-fast transsulfuration (sulfite or hydrogen sulfide are end products)
-genetic tendency (so nutrients are extra important)

To address the second, epsom salts are helpful because they're preformed sulfate that can be used for detox directly.

Now are we on the same page?
ok ok....now where are sulfites and sulfates found?

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#21 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by kortner View Post
I don't know if this is relevant - but it says liver detoxification phase I & II and sulfation (and it's from the blog of the new HCP I found - exciting!): http://cemmed.wordpress.com/
That article is amazing, thanks! So many correlations I want to look for and polls I want to do!

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Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post
ok ok....now where are sulfites and sulfates found?
Sulfate is better absorbed through the skin (not the gut) - so epsom salt baths.
this link has a list of sulfite sources (it's just the first I found, there may be better lists?)

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#22 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by caedmyn View Post
It's been a long time since I really researched all this so I could be wrong, but my understanding is that sulfur in foods is converted into sulfates in the body. So epsom salt baths are often recommended to provide a readily usable source of sulfates. Sulfates can help detox phenols.

I know of one person who figured out her DS' sensitivity to sulfur-containing foods after a reaction to sulfa drugs, so IMO a reaction to sulfa drugs could indicate a problem with sulfur-containing foods or sulfates.

And my DS reactions to sulfur-containing foods AND epsom salts (when I take them), so just because sulfates are useful doesn't mean people don't react to them.

Sulfur sensitivity can be an indicator of problems with oxalates, yet another food chemical.
Sulfa drugs contain neither sulfur nor sulfates, so I don't see the correlation.
From wiki:
Quote:
It is important to make a distinction between sulfa drugs and other sulfur-containing drugs and additives, such as sulfates and sulfites, which are chemically unrelated to the sulfonamide group, and do not cause the same hypersensitivity reactions seen in the sulfonamides.
Is it possible that what you're seeing in your DS is a detox reaction?

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That article is amazing, thanks! So many correlations I want to look for and polls I want to do!



Sulfate is better absorbed through the skin (not the gut) - so epsom salt baths.
this link has a list of sulfite sources (it's just the first I found, there may be better lists?)
Where would one find sulfates naturaly? Does your body produce them? What are they used for?

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#24 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:26 PM
 
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Sulfa drugs contain neither sulfur nor sulfates, so I don't see the correlation.
From wiki:

Is it possible that what you're seeing in your DS is a detox reaction?
But if one has a reaction to sulfur (not just sulfites) then sulfa based drugs would be a problem?

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#25 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:30 PM
 
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Where would one find sulfates naturaly? Does your body produce them? What are they used for?
Sulfates are produced by your body from sulfites (which are made from sulfur) assuming that you have sufficient amounts of the necessary enzyme and nutrients for the conversion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyblackdot View Post
But if one has a reaction to sulfur (not just sulfites) then sulfa based drugs would be a problem?
Seeing as sulfonamides are not sulfur and are not converted in the same manner, I can't see why nor how. If sulfonamides were converted to sulfites, as sulfur is, then sure. But it's not.

ETA:
From this site:
Quote:
A sulfanomide (see sample structure, below) does contain sulfur, but the sulfur atoms are imbedded in a complex molecule. The sulfur atom is not the allergenic agent and being allergic to sulfa drugs does not imply having a propensity to allergy to other sulfur compounds. Rather, it is a unique property of this kind of compound, namely that it can form proteins that are allergenic in some individuals.

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#26 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Where would one find sulfates naturaly? Does your body produce them? What are they used for?
Normally, your body produces sulfate by this SUOX enzyme. If it's not working well, for whatever reason, you're going to be deficient, and so supplements will be helpful/necessary.

From tuberose:
Quote:
Sulfation is the conjugation of toxins with sulfur-containing compounds. The sulfation system is important for detoxifying several drugs, food additives, and, especially, toxins from intestinal bacteria and the environment. In addition to environmental toxins, sulfation is also used to detoxify some normal body chemicals and is the main pathway for the elimination of steroid and thyroid hormones. Since sulfation is also the primary route for the elimination of neurotransmitters, dysfunction in this system may contribute to the development of some nervous system disorders.

Many factors influence the activity of sulfate conjugation. For example, a diet low in methionine and cysteine has been shown to reduce sulfation. Sulfation is also reduced by excessive levels of molybdenum or vitamin B6 (over about 100 mg/day). In some cases, sulfation can be increased by supplemental sulfate, extra amounts of sulfur-containing foods in the diet, and the amino acids taurine and glutathione.

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#27 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:44 PM
 
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Sulfates are produced by your body from sulfites (which are made from sulfur) assuming that you have sufficient amounts of the necessary enzyme and nutrients for the conversion.
So would the issue be too little of the necessary enzymes then?

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#28 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:49 PM
 
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So would the issue be too little of the necessary enzymes then?
whoMe answered this, so here's her post again, with the relevant bits bolded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
I need to go back and read the links, but here's my understanding:

SUOX is an enzyme that converts toxic sulfur forms into helpful sulfur forms. Sulfate is the end product, and it makes up the sulfation detox pathway.

If you're sulfur sensitive, then the SUOX enzyme gets overloaded. Then you have two issues:
-first, too many toxic sulfur compounds floating around
-second, not enough sulfate for detoxing.

The first would show up as a sensitivity to dietary sulfur (eggs, brassicas, wine/sulfites, etc, maybe sulfa drugs?)

The second would show up as difficulty in detoxing adrenal hormones, thyroid hormones, salicylates, food additives, environmental toxins...

If you have the second, but not the first, then sulfur foods will probably be your friends. (I think this is me, BTW)

To address the first, you figure out why your SUOX can't keep up. Reasons that I know of include:
-too much or too little B6
-too much or too little molybdenum
-fast transsulfuration (sulfite or hydrogen sulfide are end products)
-genetic tendency (so nutrients are extra important)


To address the second, epsom salts are helpful because they're preformed sulfate that can be used for detox directly.

Now are we on the same page?

Wife of Michael , SAHM to Aristotle 09/99 Raphael 06/07 and Marius 05/09 Known only in dreams but never forgotten: Euphrates Decluttering 290/2010
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#29 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 06:56 PM
 
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Hrm.
Now, I was helped by supping MSM. That just means I'm low on sulfur-containing foods, right? (I think Tanya gave me a list of them once and the only thing I ate off of it for various reasons was onions and garlic or something silly.) Or is it still possible that it's "just" a conversion issue?

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#30 of 179 Old 03-10-2009, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
Hrm.
Now, I was helped by supping MSM. That just means I'm low on sulfur-containing foods, right? (I think Tanya gave me a list of them once and the only thing I ate off of it for various reasons was onions and garlic or something silly.) Or is it still possible that it's "just" a conversion issue?
Do you think it was the methyl groups or the sulfur that helped? If it was the sulfur, that could mean you need more sulfur foods, or it could mean your transsulfuration is slow (chocolate? B6?)

allergy-nutrition mama, dh, 4yo dd, and March ds
Eating shouldn't be stressful!
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