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#1 of 113 Old 03-21-2009, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sleep is really important, and I know it's an issue for a lot of us. Let's pool our sleep knowledge!

From my experience/reading:
Cortisol can mess with your sleep. Signs that it's out of whack are adrenal fatigue, and weird sleep/wake cycles, including staying up late (night owl) and having a hard time waking up in the morning. Low cholesterol is another sign.

The way to address that, is by treating your adrenals. From a nutrient standpoint, that means pantothenic acid (B5), cysteine and magnesium (Mg).
-Suspect Mg if you have chocolate cravings
-Cysteine can be supplemented directly as NAC, or made in your body with Mg, B6 and quality protein.
-If you tend towards acne and keratosis pilaris and have strong nails and/or a white coat on your tongue, you're probably fine on cysteine, so B5 might do better.

Melatonin is necessary for restful, healing sleep. Melatonin is made from serotonin in darkness. Signs that this isn't working right are racing thoughts preventing sleep, depression, anxiety, and carb cravings.

To address melatonin, increase your serotonin and sleep in the dark. To increase serotonin from a nutritional standpoint, you need folate, B6, and tryptophan. You can improve the process by not eating too much protein, having plenty of B3, and eating carbs before bed. One trick is to eat a spoonful or two of honey before going to sleep.

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#2 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 05:44 PM
 
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Everyone's avoiding the issue.
I'm subbing.

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#3 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 06:23 PM
 
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I think my sleep problems are better. The Travacor works wonders for me. Melatonin didn't. I do have adrenal fatigue, but high cholesterol (it sounds like those two shouldn't go together?). I am taking a B-complex but I don't notice any difference in my sleep. I am also taking magnesium and haven't noticed a difference. Maybe I'd notice if it I stopped taking the Travacor and just did the others? I think I'm taking so many supps that I don't know what's helping anymore.

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#4 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Travacor

I don't know anything about why melatonin wouldn't help.

If the travacor is helping and the B complex is not, then my guess is that it's either the Mg/B6 helping your adrenals/cortisol, or else you've got (MTHFR issues resulting in) low BH4. The 5HTP would bypass that step for you, and food folate would raise BH4 levels.

To see if I'm on the right track, do you happen to have low keratin (weak nails, no KP, etc) or low dopamine/thyroid/pale coloring?

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#5 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 06:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Travacor

I don't know anything about why melatonin wouldn't help.

If the travacor is helping and the B complex is not, then my guess is that it's either the Mg/B6 helping your adrenals/cortisol, or else you've got (MTHFR issues resulting in) low BH4. The 5HTP would bypass that step for you, and food folate would raise BH4 levels.

To see if I'm on the right track, do you happen to have low keratin (weak nails, no KP, etc) or low dopamine/thyroid/pale coloring?
She just said in the chat thread that she has weak, brittle nails.
I'm trying to figure out the high cholesterol now. I know cholesterol is synthesized by the adrenals, which could be contributing to adrenal fatigue (adrenals are busy busy making cholesterol.. question is why?).

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#6 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 06:57 PM
 
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Wait, Kathy, how high is your cholesterol? I was sorta concerned another time, I thought you mentioned something like 160 after you started taking fish oil. I think sometimes one problem can mask another--inflammation from something was inflating your cholesterol, and now that you've added an anti-inflammatory, it's plummeted? I'm probably projecting again cause I wasn't horrified at my husband's recent high blood pressure, I think his messed up adrenals were dragging his BP down, when in reality, he's overweight and has a significant family history of high BP. So at least we're seeing the real problem now. And strangely enough, all the readings since that first day when the homeopathic doc gave him a remedy for high blood pressure have been coming down, and now they seem stable in the mid 120s over something a tad high, I forget, but not unreasonable. Homeopathy for high BP, who'da thunk it? Except SB, of course.
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#7 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 06:59 PM
 
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I will look later today, I've seen cool breakdowns of the chemicals involved in sleep--and if melatonin didn't help, then the problem in your brain chemicals is happening at a different place, and that's good to know. I'm not sure if I can figure out where Travacor jumps into the process though. That seems a bit more daunting. Have you tried 5-HTP? It's at a slightly different part of the sleep chemical cycle.
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#8 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 06:59 PM
 
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Okay, high cholesterol (dependent on high ATP), low BH4 (low GTP), you also have a seemingly low production of uric acid.... It sounds like all of your (Kathy's) purines are being routed into making acetyl-coenzyme A (cholesterol precursor)- the opposite problem that whoMe had.

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#9 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 07:01 PM
 
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My dad takes something to sleep, I thought it was this (Travacor, I mean), but he's taking a prescription med, so I assumed this was prescription. This is 5-htp and stuff (I don't really know what all the other stuff does, but it looks like it's nice forms of all that stuff, chemically I mean).
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#10 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 07:04 PM
 
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Everything I'm reading is showing an overgrowth of E. coli....
Send some to me, Kathy!

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#11 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
She just said in the chat thread that she has weak, brittle nails.
I'm trying to figure out the high cholesterol now. I know cholesterol is synthesized by the adrenals, which could be contributing to adrenal fatigue (adrenals are busy busy making cholesterol.. question is why?).
Okay, you expect me to keep details straight across threads!?

I bet it's just the Mg/B6 making more cysteine and helping with cortisol.

Kathy, how's your HDL/LDL?

Is cholesterol really made in the adrenals too, not just used up by them?

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#12 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 07:18 PM
 
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From what I've read, yes.

How's your vitamin B3 intake, Kathy? Apparently niacin can be synthesized from tryptophan.

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#13 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
How's your vitamin B3 intake, Kathy? Apparently niacin can be synthesized from tryptophan.
That's too funny. I just edited the OP to add B3 to the serotonin section. I was busy (finally) reading this article from Pat while you were posting.

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#14 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 07:40 PM
 
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Subbing. Sleep = good. I need to see if my doctor can/will test me for adrenal fatigue.

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#15 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 09:21 PM
 
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Also, Kathy, if you're low in vitamin E, it's possible that your need for B3/niacin would be increased (see the vitamin E thread).

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#16 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 10:09 PM
 
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Who needs a doctor when I've got this crew with all the brainpower?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Travacor

I don't know anything about why melatonin wouldn't help.

If the travacor is helping and the B complex is not, then my guess is that it's either the Mg/B6 helping your adrenals/cortisol, or else you've got (MTHFR issues resulting in) low BH4. The 5HTP would bypass that step for you, and food folate would raise BH4 levels.

To see if I'm on the right track, do you happen to have low keratin (weak nails, no KP, etc) or low dopamine/thyroid/pale coloring?
Weak/brittle nails, no KP, pale-ish, thyroid is normal. Adrenals are fatigued. I tried melatonin for a few weeks and it didn't do anything. But here's the weird thing about sleep stuff... before I found out about the adrenal fatigue, I told my allopath dr about my sleep issues (a couple hours to fall asleep, and if I woke up for one of the kids in the night, it would take me another hour or so to fall back asleep, and woke up exhausted each morning). He prescribed Rozerem for me. I took it when it said to but I didn't get tired until the following afternoon (around 3-5pm I could barely keep my eyes opened). Tried it for a couple days and it did the same thing. The doctor said he never heard of it producing that effect. He says it either works for people or doesn't; he never heard of a delayed reaction. So then I tried the Vital Nutrients Sleep Aide (passionflower herb, lemon balm, hops strobile, california poppy, valerian officinalis root, lavender, melatonin, L-theanine) and the exact same thing happened. I've tried stopping the Travacor (actually it's because I run out then I have to wait for the order - duh!) and I go back to the old sleep pattern every time.

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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
Wait, Kathy, how high is your cholesterol? I was sorta concerned another time, I thought you mentioned something like 160 after you started taking fish oil. I think sometimes one problem can mask another--inflammation from something was inflating your cholesterol, and now that you've added an anti-inflammatory, it's plummeted? I'm probably projecting again cause I wasn't horrified at my husband's recent high blood pressure, I think his messed up adrenals were dragging his BP down, when in reality, he's overweight and has a significant family history of high BP. So at least we're seeing the real problem now. And strangely enough, all the readings since that first day when the homeopathic doc gave him a remedy for high blood pressure have been coming down, and now they seem stable in the mid 120s over something a tad high, I forget, but not unreasonable. Homeopathy for high BP, who'da thunk it? Except SB, of course.
It's hovered at 220-230 since the first time I had it checked when I was 21 (and I'm underweight, though I don't/can't exercise). And it was high bad, low good, and high lipids, the worst of everything. After I started taking the 4 high potency fish capsules a day, it went down to 160 or something with high good, low bad, and fine on the lipids. I'm curious what it is now though, because I'm only taking 2 capsules a day (after DH's TIA scare, he's been taking 2 a day as well; they found he had high cholesterol in the hospital, and his had been good up to that point).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
Okay, high cholesterol (dependent on high ATP), low BH4 (low GTP), you also have a seemingly low production of uric acid.... It sounds like all of your (Kathy's) purines are being routed into making acetyl-coenzyme A (cholesterol precursor)- the opposite problem that whoMe had.
Is that English? I should have paid more attention in my science courses, eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
Everything I'm reading is showing an overgrowth of E. coli....
Send some to me, Kathy!
Gee, 80% of my UTIs are caused by e. coli (the others are klebsiella and citrobacter). You're so smart, Jacqueline! But how do I have an overgrowth if I'm always on abx?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
From what I've read, yes.

How's your vitamin B3 intake, Kathy? Apparently niacin can be synthesized from tryptophan.
I just looked at my B-complex (vital nutrients) and I don't see B3, but I do see niacinamide (75mg). That's the same thing isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
Also, Kathy, if you're low in vitamin E, it's possible that your need for B3/niacin would be increased (see the vitamin E thread).

Olives (and olive oil) are a good source of vitamin E.
Unrefined palm or coconut oil are also good sources.
And how do I figure that out? Our only oils are olive and coconut. I use palm shortening, but I assume that's "refined". We eat broccoli every 4 days, and blueberries in smoothies once a week. There's 100% of Vitamin E in that Vitamin Code vitamin. Maybe I really should be taking it.

I just got on here to look "really quickly" and it sounds like everyone is at a research library! It's a good thing DH is on night shift tonight so I can stay up!

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#17 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I stick by my vote of B6/mag as what's doing it. Next time you run out, try just supping those? Since you should be able to easily buy them locally.

I should start a cholesterol thread, but it would belong in H&H, and I don't want all the 'normal' cholesterol advice...

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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Travacor

I don't know anything about why melatonin wouldn't help.

If the travacor is helping and the B complex is not, then my guess is that it's either the Mg/B6 helping your adrenals/cortisol, or else you've got (MTHFR issues resulting in) low BH4. The 5HTP would bypass that step for you, and food folate would raise BH4 levels.

To see if I'm on the right track, do you happen to have low keratin (weak nails, no KP, etc) or low dopamine/thyroid/pale coloring?
Is travacor same as taking the 5HTP alone???
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#19 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 10:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Yeah, I stick by my vote of B6/mag as what's doing it. Next time you run out, try just supping those? Since you should be able to easily buy them locally.
As in, B6/magnesium (or lack thereof, actually) is what would help me sleep?

Quote:
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Is travacor same as taking the 5HTP alone???
Travacor is taurine, 5-HTP, L-theanine, selenium, zinc, magnesium, B12, B6 (450% of DV) and Vitamin C. It's marketed as a neurotransmitter support (recommended by the ND and the lab that did my adrenal fatigue test)

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#20 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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As in, B6/magnesium (or lack thereof, actually) is what would help me sleep?
Yeah, as in you are deficient in B6 and magnesium, and so those are the active ingredients for you. At least, that's my hunch. And that those will be key for fixing your adrenals, along with animal protein. And that NAC might be a good supplement for you if you wanted to go that route. And I'm really curious to know if my advice is actually worth anything... (not that I'm pushing you, just that I have no experience to know if I'm totally missing something)

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#21 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 10:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Yeah, I stick by my vote of B6/mag as what's doing it. Next time you run out, try just supping those? Since you should be able to easily buy them locally.

I should start a cholesterol thread, but it would belong in H&H, and I don't want all the 'normal' cholesterol advice...
You may be right, whoMe. B3 is used in cholesterol production so that may be a bad thing for you to supp, Kathy.

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#22 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
You may be right, whoMe. B3 is used in cholesterol production so that may be a bad thing for you to supp, Kathy.
But isn't B3 also used in glutathione recycling, which would leave more cysteine for coA?

I think I need to learn more about cholesterol. Kathy, when the numbers changed, did the actual number for HDL change that much? How is your diet, in terms of PUFA vs saturated fats? I'm wondering if the fish capsules - are those for vit E? helped with oxidative damage?

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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Yeah, as in you are deficient in B6 and magnesium, and so those are the active ingredients for you. At least, that's my hunch. And that those will be key for fixing your adrenals, along with animal protein. And that NAC might be a good supplement for you if you wanted to go that route. And I'm really curious to know if my advice is actually worth anything... (not that I'm pushing you, just that I have no experience to know if I'm totally missing something)
Quote:
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You may be right, whoMe. B3 is used in cholesterol production so that may be a bad thing for you to supp, Kathy.
Are you guys ganging up on me?
Next time I'm at WF, I'll get some B6 and do a test of just magnesium and B6 and stop the Travacor and see what happens, just to make you happy WhoMe. Amounts?
I eat lots of animal protein!

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Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
But isn't B3 also used in glutathione recycling, which would leave more cysteine for coA?

I think I need to learn more about cholesterol. Kathy, when the numbers changed, did the actual number for HDL change that much? How is your diet, in terms of PUFA vs saturated fats? I'm wondering if the fish capsules - are those for vit E? helped with oxidative damage?
Whoops, we cross-posted.
My numbers used to be high all around (220-230) and the bad was high, the good was low, and high lipids. Since the fish oil, it's been bad low, good high, and fine on lipids. So all my numbers improved vastly (I think it was 168 last physical). High potency fish oil is EPA 360mg/DHA 240mg. I was taking them for anti-inflammatory (from ND) but I don't think they ever helped with that, so now I'm just taking them instead of cholesterol meds.

I don't know what kinds of fat I'm having: extra virgin olive oil, extra virgin coconut oil, and Spectrum palm shortening, plus animal fats (I like bacon and gravy among other things).

I think MDC is giving me a headache tonight. Too much thinking.

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#25 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Are you guys ganging up on me?
Next time I'm at WF, I'll get some B6 and do a test of just magnesium and B6 and stop the Travacor and see what happens, just to make you happy WhoMe. Amounts?
I eat lots of animal protein!
Start with what's in the Travacor?

Mag, don't get the oxide form, it's cheap but not well absorbed. And don't take it at the same time as calcium, they compete for absorption. Do get plenty of calcium though, it will increase your bowel tolerance.

B6, I was doing like 200mg/day for months, then had to drop to 50mg/day. If you get more than 100mg/day, it can cause symptoms - but it didn't for me until I'd fixed the deficiency. If you get straight B6, it needs riboflavin to activate. PLP is more expensive, but is pre-activated.

(I'm going to copy this to the supplement thread)

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#26 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 11:18 PM
 
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Start with what's in the Travacor?

Mag, don't get the oxide form, it's cheap but not well absorbed. And don't take it at the same time as calcium, they compete for absorption. Do get plenty of calcium though, it will increase your bowel tolerance.

B6, I was doing like 200mg/day for months, then had to drop to 50mg/day. If you get more than 100mg/day, it can cause symptoms - but it didn't for me until I'd fixed the deficiency. If you get straight B6, it needs riboflavin to activate. PLP is more expensive, but is pre-activated.
The Travacor has 9mg of B6, which it says is 450%. The magnesium I've been taking is, you've got it, magnesium oxide, so I'll have to get new of that too. Calcium is a problem. I don't tolerate it well (makes me nauseous) in supplement form, so I'm only getting 200mg a day and I'm supposed to have 800mg according to rheumatologist (because of osteopenia). I do bone broth about 4-5 times a week though, and broccoli/cauliflower, and salmon (what else is high in calcium?).

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I vote you should be doing stuff to raise your cholesterol, definitely not lower it (I mean, if the fish oil has such an effect, then there's something going on there that's worth continuing to take it)... thing is, every study I've seen lists the bad things associated with low cholesterol as starting at below 180 or below 160.

You may need the 5-htp as well, I will search for a pic/graph now, since I remember seeing them but I don't remember the details. off to learn...
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#28 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 11:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kjbrown92 View Post
Whoops, we cross-posted.
My numbers used to be high all around (220-230) and the bad was high, the good was low, and high lipids. Since the fish oil, it's been bad low, good high, and fine on lipids. So all my numbers improved vastly (I think it was 168 last physical). High potency fish oil is EPA 360mg/DHA 240mg. I was taking them for anti-inflammatory (from ND) but I don't think they ever helped with that, so now I'm just taking them instead of cholesterol meds.

I don't know what kinds of fat I'm having: extra virgin olive oil, extra virgin coconut oil, and Spectrum palm shortening, plus animal fats (I like bacon and gravy among other things).

I think MDC is giving me a headache tonight. Too much thinking.
All considered good sources of vitamin E.

Wife of Michael , SAHM to Aristotle 09/99 Raphael 06/07 and Marius 05/09 Known only in dreams but never forgotten: Euphrates Decluttering 290/2010
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#29 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The Travacor has 9mg of B6, which it says is 450%. The magnesium I've been taking is, you've got it, magnesium oxide, so I'll have to get new of that too. Calcium is a problem. I don't tolerate it well (makes me nauseous) in supplement form, so I'm only getting 200mg a day and I'm supposed to have 800mg according to rheumatologist (because of osteopenia). I do bone broth about 4-5 times a week though, and broccoli/cauliflower, and salmon (what else is high in calcium?).
I'd look more at vitamins A, D and K to better utilize the calcium you're already getting... Bone broth seems to be an amazing source, though I can't seem to find any real numbers on it.

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#30 of 113 Old 03-23-2009, 11:46 PM
 
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K2 has been used quite a bit for osteoporosis. If you read the article on the WAPF site, it has references and you can follow those back if you want. Or the vitamin k yahoo group has safety studies collected.

I'm having a hard time finding something that really describes what's going on with melatonin and 5-htp and why some people would do better with one vs the other. : That's my frustrated face.
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