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lastrid 05-03-2009 07:39 PM

I know a few of you have used the Thorne vitamin K2 and I was wondering about what dosage you use and how you determined what amount to use. I'm currently taking five drops, twice a day (once with FCLO and once with a vitamin A and D3 supplement). I still have calculus on my teeth, but it's not as bad as it was before I started the K2. Are there any other symptoms I can monitor to see if I'm getting my dosage right? Is K2 toxic in too high a dose (I haven't found info on that)?

tanyalynn 05-03-2009 10:27 PM

I haven't seen any dosage that's toxic. The best collection of safety studies I know of is in the Files section of the vitamin k yahoo group. The highest dosage I saw there, used long-term, was 15 drops 3x/day (so 45 drops/day). They were working to reverse osteoporosis, and it looked like it worked fairly well.

That said, I think most people, if they're just using it for general nutritional support, can get by with a whole lot less. How much? I'm not really sure, I just have DH taking 1 drop/day with his CLO. I've read we can store about a month's worth, there are so many contradictory things about K2 in terms of it being fat-soluble but not building up like A & D that it's a bit odd. I don't understand as much as I'd like.

DS and I have a weird thing, at this point I can't tell if it's because of the A & D in the CLO (my original assumption) or the EPA (a newer idea, which may be a better guess), which is a blood thinner all by itself--haven't read exactly what it does to thin the blood.

I get things like sensitive teeth and bruising on my shins if I go up in CLO too far without enough K2. For 10,000 IU A and 1,000 IU D (and whatever EPA is in 1 tsp of HVCLO), I was taking 10mg of K2. I'm using Carlson's 5mg K2 capsules, it's more cost effective at higher doses. I've noticed the sensitive teeth also with forgetting my D supp and when I skip my mineral supp (my biggest calcium source). So all that stuff seems to work together, but I've actually decided that since I'm so sensitive to the CLO right now, I decided to stop for several months and let my D build up and hopefully get a bit more caught up on minerals (it seems odd that I'm so sensitive to that).

I'm giving DS 7 drops (2-2-3 throughout the day) along with his 1 tsp of HVCLO. He's been stable there for quite a while, no nosebleeds. It took a while for his tartar to start when we were low in K2 for a long time, but it stopped accumulating pretty quickly once I started the K2, definitely noticeable within a month (that it wasn't spreading). But it hasn't really gone away--maybe a little, but it's still noticeable. I'm not sure if tartar can go away except by scraping it off (which, bad me, I haven't taken the kids to a dentist in too long). :

momofmine 05-03-2009 10:41 PM

aack, I had completely forgotten about K2. Thanks for bringing this forward again. And bringing up the thing about the tartar. I asked you about this before and then promptly forgot to do anything about it.

My son has always gotten build-up behind his two front bottom teeth. But when we started SCD, it increased like crazy. I mean, the increase was hugely noticeable. Within a month of SCD, the tartar behind his two front bottom teeth was just out of control, and he had just been to the dentist right before. Then it began spreading to the other bottom teeth, along the gumline also.

Everything else got so much better on the SCD (stools improved, he gained weight back) that I honestly didn't know what to do about it. Because I thought, well the diet has got to be helping, yet that much tartar seems a little excessive. And why would the diet cause that change?

So, K2 is something I guess I need to try. What dosage would you start out with given our issues? Did you start at that for your ds, or did you slowly work up?

tanyalynn 05-04-2009 12:20 AM

JaneS has old posts linking tartar to insufficient bile, and I think that is DD's issue, she actually has a lot more tartar than DS. Another sign of insufficient bile was light-colored poop, and DD used to have that, well, she still does sometimes, depends how good I'm doing with the kimchee, and I added in biotin as well and I have a hard time figuring how well it's helping (throw in some intermitting stomach bugs and running out of kimchee and everything's confusing).

Panserbjorne said that sometimes there's insufficient bile because bad bacteria consume it, and that was the missing link for me to figure out we needed tons of kimchee around here. I think there are other things related to insufficient bile (and floating poop would seem related, in that fat absorption would be affected) but that only happens to my kids after they've been sick, and it resolves on its own within no more than a week, usually.

But, if you want to do K2, start slowly. I give DD 2 drops per day, 1 in the morning and 1 at night. I would probably give her 1/2 drop each time if I had any handy way of dividing it (and another child that needed that type of dose). I'd say start with 1 drop in the AM, and stay there for a week or so, and then add in a second. As an adult, when I first started the Carlson's 5mg, I had some sleeplessness for a couple nights, even though I was taking it in the morning. Caedmyn had warned me about it, but, well, I never considered tapering up with the drops and then starting the capsules or just splitting the capsules.

I don't know why SCD, when it's doing such good other gut stuff, would cause bad bacteria or bile issues (maybe lots more fat means there's not enough bile now? but poop was getting more normal, right? so that doesn't fit). A bit of K2 is worth a try. Not many folks should need doses like DS or me, but the safety side seems reasonable if you decide to eventually try that high.

FireWithin 05-04-2009 03:34 PM

We have found that with the K2, we get bruising. It is a pattern we have trialed since this fall. Whenever we start taking K2, within 2 days, we start getting bruising. It doesn't matter if we take it with CLO, or not (DS2 doesn't take CLO). I have at times stopped clo for a couple of months and then tried K2, still bruising. I can't figure it out. Although I think it is a piece of our puzzle, I have put it on the back burner, while I figure out other things.

Chinese Pistache 05-04-2009 04:08 PM

I've been wondering about this, too. . .

tanyalynn 05-04-2009 06:39 PM

Mammo2Sammo, do you have anyone like a NAET person or something similar? My HCP does NAET, she totally believes in it. I talked a little about our K2 issue, she thinks NAET would help--I want to talk more, I think it may be permanent for me and DS, but maybe she could affect it in an epigenetic way for if/when we TTC again. But maybe something like that is going on?

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