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#1 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I know this is really relevant and important. But how do the pieces fit together?

Prostaglandins regulate the inflammatory response, and are how the omega-3's and omega-6's interact.

There are also links to salicylates, allergies, celiac, and glutamate.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...e/message/5532
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.co...al-Report.html
http://www.aapsj.org/articles/aapsj0...36_figure2.jpg
http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstr...p?pmid=9440691
http://www.vitasearch.com/get/PC/exp...2-24-08-08.pdf
http://www.tuberose.com/Inflammation..._&_Repair.html
http://www.raysahelian.com/prostaglandin.html
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/omega-6-000317.htm
http://westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/tripping.html


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#2 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 03:06 PM
 
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Haven't looked yet, will try to later. Subbing.
Also, aren't prostaglandins what is responsible for something wrt birthing?

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#3 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by JacquelineR View Post
Haven't looked yet, will try to later. Subbing.
Also, aren't prostaglandins what is responsible for something wrt birthing?
Yeah, something to do with sperm, and something to do with the initiation of labor.

I suppose if it weren't so complicated, it'd be better known and we wouldn't have to teach it to ourselves

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#4 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 03:17 PM
 
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I suppose if it weren't so complicated, it'd be better known and we wouldn't have to teach it to ourselves
What would be the fun in that?

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#5 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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What would be the fun in that?
Yes. Curing food intolerances is definitely one of those things you need to do to keep life interesting. How boring would life be if you could just eat whatever you wanted, go anywhere without concern, do fun projects like knitting or sewing or art or whatever, just cause you need something to fill your time since it's not all spent on the computer... Too carefree, if you ask me

That's what I want to do with the next kid. And so I get to learn all this now : It really do love it, though

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#6 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 03:32 PM
 
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On the other hand, if we weren't trying to "Cure" food intolerances, we wouldn't have learned all these other things which are interconnected... Such as the mental illness aspects, the heart and stroke connections, the thyroid and adrenal connections.... Things that have the potential to be so much more than "just" "curing food intolerances" not just for ourselves and the people who are effected by the food intolerance but our entire families.
And it's been an incredibly interesting (and, imo, fun) ride so far with great company. So I won't complain.

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#7 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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On the other hand, if we weren't trying to "Cure" food intolerances, we wouldn't have learned all these other things which are interconnected... Such as the mental illness aspects, the heart and stroke connections, the thyroid and adrenal connections.... Things that have the potential to be so much more than "just" "curing food intolerances" not just for ourselves and the people who are effected by the food intolerance but our entire families.
And it's been an incredibly interesting (and, imo, fun) ride so far with great company. So I won't complain.
But you see, if the whole subject weren't so complicated, then all those other issues would be solved problems as well. The world would be a better place.

I guess everything has to start somewhere, and the beginning is always the complicated part - otherwise someone would have done it already, right?

to a future devoid of health problems?

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#8 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 03:53 PM
 
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subbing so i remember to read all the links later. right now, lily and i are making her a wig. a red wig, dyed with beet juice.

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#9 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 04:59 PM
 
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here! here! JR - totally agree.

I want to get on the prostaglandin bandwagon, but I promised myself I will write something on my thread and talk a bit about glutamate.
If the Backyardigans hold out long enough, I will be back.

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#10 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 07:19 PM
 
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Subbing too! Loving the conversation already.

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#11 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 08:53 PM
 
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So far I only read the second link, but it sounds like supplementing CLO should only be used when needed to correct big deficiencies in A & D (or in acute situations involving healing from illness - for instance, overcoming viral infection). Short of paying $30 for the full report, where do you get only DHA for omega 3's and AA for omega 6's?

ETA: Hoping something helps translate the figure in the third link and the article in the fourth. I am seriously lost.

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#12 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MyLittleWonders View Post
So far I only read the second link, but it sounds like supplementing CLO should only be used when needed to correct big deficiencies in A & D (or in acute situations involving healing from illness - for instance, overcoming viral infection). Short of paying $30 for the full report, where do you get only DHA for omega 3's and AA for omega 6's?
I don't know about the DHA, but AA from butter and egg yolks. Oh right, a bunch of people here can't do those I paid for the report, I'll let you know when I get it and read it

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I don't know about the DHA, but AA from butter and egg yolks. Oh right, a bunch of people here can't do those I paid for the report, I'll let you know when I get it and read it
There are many times I am reminded how grateful I am that we only deal with food additives and gluten here. So, making sure we have eggs and butter will at least ensure we are getting adequate AA. I guess I'm off to research DHA. From the sound of the article, I feel like dropping all CLO supplementing. Now to figure out how to make sure we are getting enough vitamin D (I don't like the sun as we all burn) and A. And thanks in advance for any synopsis.

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#14 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There are many times I am reminded how grateful I am that we only deal with food additives and gluten here. So, making sure we have eggs and butter will at least ensure we are getting adequate AA. I guess I'm off to research DHA. From the sound of the article, I feel like dropping all CLO supplementing. Now to figure out how to make sure we are getting enough vitamin D (I don't like the sun as we all burn) and A. And thanks in advance for any synopsis.
That's funny, cause my first response is to *start* taking CLO.
http://www.vitasearch.com/get/PC/exp...2-24-08-08.pdf
I forgot to add this link, adding it now. They talk about supping huge amounts of fish oil to cancel out salicylate-induced inflammation, including sunburn.

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#15 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 10:01 PM
 
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But should you sup with just fish oil and skip the high vitamin A&D & get those elsewhere? I am so confused.

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#16 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I'm confused, too. But now my test is done : so I can read up in all my spare moments without guilt

I'm going to post my specific questions, and answer them as I figure them out:

1) what are the different types of prostaglandins, and where do they come from? how do you get one vs another?

2) what do they DO?

3) how do they interact with glutamate?

4) can you affect your balance in order to change your inflammatory response, or is that just a salicylate/leukotriene thing?

5) will forcing myself to take CLO be a good bandaid for high glutamate until I can get my ammonia levels down?

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#17 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 11:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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1) what are the different types of prostaglandins, and where do they come from? how do you get one vs another?
Prostaglandins are like hormones that act directly on a cell. They're made from fatty acids. Arachidonic acid (AA or ARA) is the (a?) precursor.

AA can be made into either leukotrienes (LTs) or prostaglandins (PGs). Salicylates (sals) inhibit the process that converts them to prostaglandins (COX), and you end up with a bunch of leukotrienes (via LOX).

PGs are either inflammatory or antiinflammatory.
LTs are inflammatory.

http://www.tuberose.com/Inflammation..._&_Repair.html
Quote:
In the short term, the pro-inflammatory agents are a good thing because they act as a protective mechanism for the body. However, if they hang around too long, too much leukotrienes and PGE2 will circulate in the body. There are three parts to this inflammatory cascade. Two of them are desirable and one is undesirable. Linoleic acid is converted in gamma linoleic acid, dihomogammalinoleic acid and finally, prostaglandin E1. Prostaglandin E1 is a desirable anti-inflammatory agent. Alpha linolenic acid is converted into desirable eicopentanoic acid and prostaglandin E3. The membrane phospholipids, through an enzyme called phospholipase, is converted into arachidonic acid and ultimately, the leukotrienes and prostaglandin E2, which are pro-inflammatory agents, are undesirable.

Over-the-counter Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs) and steroid drugs (prescription), once believed to be the treatments of choice for pain, are now recognized as destructive roadblocks to recovery. However, the pharmaceutical companies will not tell you this, your doctor may not know, and well-meaning friends may offer chemical solutions that actually work against your body's own healing powers. NSAIDs and Steroids block the chemical pathways, stopping the arachidonic acid and the prostaglandin E2 from being released. Unfortunately, they shut down the good guys as well as the bad guys and bring the total arachidonic cascade to a halt.
(dh and dd got back from the store)

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#18 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 11:43 PM
 
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That's funny, cause my first response is to *start* taking CLO.
http://www.vitasearch.com/get/PC/exp...2-24-08-08.pdf
I forgot to add this link, adding it now. They talk about supping huge amounts of fish oil to cancel out salicylate-induced inflammation, including sunburn.
This, from the second link in your OP, is what made me think that maybe CLO supplementation isn't the best idea.

Quote:
Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) occurs in fish products but is probably not a normal constituent of the mammalian body and in excess it interferes with essential AA metabolism.

In other healthy adults, however, the requirement is infinitesimal if it exists at all. The best sources of EFAs are liver, butter, and egg yolks, especially from animals raised on pasture. During pregnancy, lactation, and childhood, small amounts of cod liver oil may be useful to provide extra DHA, but otherwise this supplement should be used only when needed to obtain fat-soluble vitamins.
From the sounds of the article, if you supplement with CLO, you will be potentially getting more EPA than is beneficial, and potentially causing problems with AA metabolism with excess EPA in the body.

But, from the latest link, it sounds that the omega 3's found in fish oil (and therefore cod liver oil) is beneficial. It doesn't seem to make any distinction between EPA and DHA in the fish oil, and seems to treat AA as potentially bad. So, if AA isn't good for the body, then I could see wanting to supplementing EPA, as it seems that it does not allow the body to metabolize the AA. But, from the second link, AA is essential to the body.

So, is it safe to say that we probably get way too much AA in our bodies as it is, so using fish oil/cod liver oil is beneficial because it helps us not only clean up the excess AA from our diets, but also because EPA and DHA work together to help reduce inflamation? (I knew omega 3's were good at reducing inflamation though didn't understand why; I really didn't know that they also have a preventative affect against sunburn. That is something I need to research some more. )

And just for discussion, I looked up the contents of vitamin A, D, and EPA and DHA in one serving of Blue Ice high vitamin CLO:

Quote:
One-half teaspoon provides: Vitamin A 5750 IUs EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) 145 – 375 mg Vitamin D 575 IUs DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) 150 – 360 mg
From the last article, it sounds like approximately 5-10 servings of the HVCLO would give the same effects the researchers found, based on the amount they gave their patients.

Quote:
Each 1 gram capsule contains 180mg of EPA and 120mg of DHA.
(They gave 10 capsules to their patients divided in 3 doses throughout the day.)

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#19 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 11:45 PM
 
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But should you sup with just fish oil and skip the high vitamin A&D & get those elsewhere? I am so confused.
See, for me, I've never had a problem with the A&D in CLO. We do, though, switch between HVCLO (Blue Ice) and non-high vitamin CLO (Kirkman Labs).

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#20 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 11:51 PM
 
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Prostaglandins are like hormones that act directly on a cell. They're made from fatty acids. Arachidonic acid (AA or ARA) is the (a?) precursor.

AA can be made into either leukotrienes (LTs) or prostaglandins (PGs). Salicylates (sals) inhibit the process that converts them to prostaglandins (COX), and you end up with a bunch of leukotrienes (via LOX).

PGs are either inflammatory or antiinflammatory.
LTs are inflammatory.

http://www.tuberose.com/Inflammation..._&_Repair.html


(dh and dd got back from the store)
So ... omega 6's are seen as inflammatory in nature. From this article:
Quote:
Eicosanoids formed from arachidonic acid (AA, the omega-6 family) have the potential to increase blood pressure, inflammation, platelet aggregation, thrombosis, vasospasm, allergic reactions, and cell proliferation (growth). Those formed from eicosapentanoic acid (EPA, the omega-3 family) have opposing affects. Omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids are not interchangeable, and humans must consume both.
But, from what you wrote, it sounds like maybe AA is seen as antagonistic because of the affects of salicylates?

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#21 of 42 Old 05-06-2009, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But, from the latest link, it sounds that the omega 3's found in fish oil (and therefore cod liver oil) is beneficial. It doesn't seem to make any distinction between EFA and DHA in the fish oil, and seems to treat AA as potentially bad. So, if AA isn't good for the body, then I could see wanting to supplementing EFA, as it seems that it does not allow the body to metabolize the AA. But, from the second link, AA is essential to the body.

So, is it safe to say that we probably get way too much AA in our bodies as it is, so using fish oil/cod liver oil is beneficial because it helps us not only clean up the excess AA from our diets, but also because EFA and DHA work together to help reduce inflamation?
What I *think* might be happening is that you have limited resources for conversion, so ratios are really important. omega 3's in things like flax need to be converted to EPA/DHA (I don't know the difference yet) and omega 6's in things like veggie oils need to be converted to AA. And AA is converted to inflammatory PGs and LTs, and EPA (?) is converted to anti-inflammatory PGs. But can AA be converted to EPA if there are enough resources available? And is that why you want to minimize flax and veggie oils?

But I don't understand it yet, so that's just the fuzz that I'm hoping to clarify.

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#22 of 42 Old 05-07-2009, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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more links added to the OP:
http://www.tuberose.com/Inflammation..._&_Repair.html
http://www.raysahelian.com/prostaglandin.html

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#23 of 42 Old 05-07-2009, 12:13 AM
 
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Seriously, I don't read the thread for just a few hours, and it goes onto the second page? How do you expect people to keep up??? :

Will read tomorrow, I _have_ to do better with my bedtime.
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#24 of 42 Old 05-07-2009, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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2) what do they DO?
(dramatically simplified for the sake of wrapping my head around it, pretty much all quoted from here, but chopped up and mixed around )

Series 1 prostaglandins [same as PGE1?] use (gamma) linoleic acid as the starting point.
Prostaglandin E1 (PGE1) therapy...has significant beneficial effects over placebo on ulcer healing and pain relief...

Prostaglandin E2 is a principal mediator of inflammation [as in, PGE2 causes inflammation]

Series 3 prostaglandins are formed from the fatty acid found in fish oil: EPA The most important job of Series 3 prostaglandins is to prevent AA from being released by cells, thus preventing the production of bad Series 2 prostaglandins.

Series 1 and 3 prostaglandins are considered the "good" prostaglandins, while Series 2 are considered the "bad" prostaglandins.
-----------------
okay, so 1 and 3 are 'good' while 2 is 'bad.'

1 is made from GLA (omega-6)
2 is made from AA (omega-6)
3 is made from EPA (omega-3)
-----------------
masterjohn abstract now (don't have the full version yet)

An excess of linoleate from vegetable oil will interfere with the production of DHA while an excess of EPA from fish oil will interfere with the production and utilization of AA.
------------------
so this is where the balance of omega 3's vs 6's comes in... Too much veggie oil->increased need for omega 3's. Too much EPA, AA can't do it's job, presumably by the series 3 PGs from the first link?

So we still need AA and DHA, but hardly any at all, so long as we keep the other PUFAs low so they don't interfere?

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#25 of 42 Old 05-07-2009, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.ionchannels.org/showabstr...p?pmid=9440691
is basically saying that PGE2 (the AA/bad one) increases calcium flow *and* glutamate release. (remember that glutamate also increases calcium flow)

I don't totally trust myself to be reading that right, though...
---------------------
Friedmann interview

We showed that dietary supplementation with omega 3’s conferred significant protection against many of the damaging effects of UV light, the most obvious of which was the sunburn effect.
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1.../5610738a.html
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1.../5611153a.html
(full text available for both of those, but I haven't read them yet)

(me summarizing)
Sals inhibit the conversion of AA to PGE2, and force it into "4 series leukotrienes" which seem to be extra inflammatory.

subjects were taking 1800mg EPA and 1200mg DHA

Could you “help” the fish oil therapy...by reducing or eliminating
preformed arachidonic acid in the diet...?
It is virtually impossible to cut out the dietary precursors of arachidonic acid, which are the omega 6 containing oils mostly used in cooking.

We also asked 2 patients with severe urticaria but with no evidence of salicylate intolerance to try the fish oils but they obtained no benefit.
------------------
So first, this prostaglandin stuff is important for avoiding sunburns (and maximizing vit D!)

Pushing the omega 3 ratio in cells fixes a lot of the severe symptoms of sals intolerance, but is not a general cure-all for hives.

Severely limiting omega 6's as masterjohn and wapf suggest might be on the right track (though 'virtually impossible' )
-------------------
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/omega-6-000317.htm

People who are prone to allergies may require more essential fatty acids (EFAs) and often have difficulty converting LA to GLA. In fact, women and infants who are prone to allergies appear to have lower levels of GLA in breast milk and blood.
--------------------
And then they go on to talk about GLA (omega 6) supplements to fix allergies, but it seems a bit off track from the rest so I'm ignoring it.

I take this as, yes, EFA ratios are off in people with allergies, and this transfers to breastmilk as well. So just general consensus with the rest, and confirmation we're on the right track.

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#26 of 42 Old 05-07-2009, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phospholipase_A2
(what's a phospholipase again?)

[The extracellular forms of phospholipases A2] require Ca2+ for activity.

The intracellular PLA2 are also Ca-dependent...

PLA2 is regulated by phosphorylation and calcium concentrations.

In the absence of strict regulation of PLA2 activity, a disproportionate amount of proinflammatory mediators are produced.

Increased phospholipase A2 has also been associated with neuropsychiatric disorders such as schizophrenia and pervasive developmental disorders (such as autism), though the mechanisms involved are not known.
------------------
Okay, phospholipase A2 (PLA2) is what starts an AA inflammatory response (either conversion to PGs or LTs). Calcium is the signal to start. If regulation isn't done well (open Ca ion channels, anyone?) then you get inflammation. Okay, now we know the source. And such things are known to be out of whack in autism, so it's not a huge leap to assume we're on the right track for allergies. Wheeeeeee

-------------------
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/12/5/1917
PGE2 specifically increases calcium influx

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#27 of 42 Old 05-07-2009, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/tripping.html
Awesome diagram of the fats and the PGs and how they interact

And now that I know what they're talking about and what to pay attention to, AWESOME article that summarizes everything

---------------------------
Okay, reassessing.

Presumably, we all have inflammation. We need to figure out *why* so we can address that. In the mean time, we can try to reduce that inflammation by messing with our prostaglandins? (technical terms)

My calcium ion channels are open, which makes for more PGE2, which stimulates release of more glutamate, which holds the channels open further.

Must close channels.

Wait, where do the omega 3's come in?
PGE1 is antiinflammatory, and is from omega 6 GLA.
PGE2 is inflammatory, and is from omega 6 AA.
PGE3 is antiinflammatory, and is from EPA, but EPA isn't normal for mammals.

So if we have too much PGE2 and PGE1 can't keep up (?) then we need more EPA to make PGE3 to slow down PGE2. And if we don't, then inflammation gets progressively worse?

Did anyone follow all that?

To boil it all down, I'm thinking EPA will be helpful for healing while addressing the root cause. But I want to read the full Masterjohn article first.

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#28 of 42 Old 05-07-2009, 10:04 PM
 
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What is the relationship between phospholipase, and lipase?

(I suspect that my milk is/was high in lipase. It has not always been this way. A year ago, I could pump and save without a problem. In Sept, I became aware that I was dealing with high lipase. I haven't pumped since Sept, so the lipase issue could have gone away. I suspect lipase has some relation to diet, with respect to oils consumed, but I'm not sure what.)


ETA - Our NP suggested flax oil for DS's eczema (to ingest, not to use topically). And I recall that EPO/borage oil is recommended for eczema. Do we know why?

DS, 10/07. Allergies: peanut, egg, wheat. We've added dairy back in. And taken it back out again. It causes sandpaper skin with itchy patches and thrashing during sleep. Due w/ #2 late April, 2012.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASusan View Post
What is the relationship between phospholipase, and lipase?

(I suspect that my milk is/was high in lipase. It has not always been this way. A year ago, I could pump and save without a problem. In Sept, I became aware that I was dealing with high lipase. I haven't pumped since Sept, so the lipase issue could have gone away. I suspect lipase has some relation to diet, with respect to oils consumed, but I'm not sure what.)
i had/have high lipase. didn't notice it with DD1 until she was 9+m old, despite pumping from much, much earlier. noticed it with DD2 the first/only time i pumped when she was 4m old.

also, shannon, this is a fabulous discussion. keep talking; i am listening!

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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#30 of 42 Old 05-08-2009, 12:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASusan View Post
What is the relationship between phospholipase, and lipase?

(I suspect that my milk is/was high in lipase. It has not always been this way. A year ago, I could pump and save without a problem. In Sept, I became aware that I was dealing with high lipase. I haven't pumped since Sept, so the lipase issue could have gone away. I suspect lipase has some relation to diet, with respect to oils consumed, but I'm not sure what.)


ETA - Our NP suggested flax oil for DS's eczema (to ingest, not to use topically). And I recall that EPO/borage oil is recommended for eczema. Do we know why?
I know nothing about lipase in milk, and had no idea it was a variable thing. Interesting. I'll keep that in mind when I see other stuff.
Lipase is an enzyme that breaks apart triglycerides into glycerol (?) and fatty acids. Phospholipase (I think) breaks phospholipids (in cell membranes) into phosph(ates?) and fatty acids.

EPO/borage oil would likely stimulate the series 1 PG's, which are antiinflammatory

Quote:
Originally Posted by menomena View Post
i had/have high lipase. didn't notice it with DD1 until she was 9+m old, despite pumping from much, much earlier. noticed it with DD2 the first/only time i pumped when she was 4m old.

also, shannon, this is a fabulous discussion. keep talking; i am listening!
Hopefully it'll turn out to be useful! Definitely educational

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