Salicylate/Amine/Histamine Sensitive Tribe - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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#181 of 391 Old 02-26-2010, 10:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post

It sounds like histamines might be issues for you too - the supps to help there are vite C, methyl b12, and mag/b6 to a lesser extent.


I have been researching diamine oxidase, the enzyme which clears histamine... and it is B6 dependent:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/44/6/907

And influenced by mag deficiency:
http://rms1.agsearch.agropedia.affrc...ty/28-2895.pdf
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#182 of 391 Old 02-27-2010, 03:31 PM
 
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Thanks for those links, Jane. Your research always saves me so much time. We have a cold here, and I was looking into skin absorbtion of zinc and found this one on Google books: Metals and the skin: Topical Effects and Systemic Absorbtion by Richard Guy http://tinyurl.com/yhgnjyx Anyhow, the zinc chapter mentioned that zinc binds with histidine in the gut, so keeping zinc up will help amine issues too. For us, with the lead poisoning, it seems like I can never get enough of some nutrients in them (or me). B6 is involved in the GABA too, if there's anyone one this thread with a wild and crazy kid who didn't know that one already. . . .
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#183 of 391 Old 03-01-2010, 12:43 AM
 
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Vitamin b 3 ..

Two forms.. niacin.. this speeds up liver phase 1 metabolism
increases brain circulation
lowers copper levels


niacinamide .. slows down phase 1
may reduce anxiety from petrochemicals
1-3 grams antidepressive
shown to reduc autoimmune diabetes

Time released niacin is hard on the liver and should not be used


I got very ill with niacin..

Niacinamide I now notice improvements with and it is now my freind..
I started with a whole capsule and got ill for some reason?? with the niacinamide. So a freind who had a similar problem told me to start low. .. ie a quarter a capsule and to build up slowly.. After a good week of upping gradually I now take 6 X 500mg daily...

It helps with the sped up feeling which as I am also low adrenal.. feels like a constant pep up with nothing there to get me started.. alot of swaying, problems walking, coordination etc.

nanci
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#184 of 391 Old 03-01-2010, 03:27 PM
 
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Is no-phenol safe to take during pregnancy? I was thinking of trying some but we are also considering ttc, as well ... and wasn't sure. Have any of you gone through a pg with these food intolerances? The only thing I can think of is that right before I got pg the last time I had started having reactions (for about 6 months) and within 2 or 3 months of getting pg all my symptoms stopped -- so I'm thinking it has to do with the DAO enzyme that is produced from about 10 weeks on ... I didn't start having symptoms again until about 6-8 weeks PP. I just want to make sure I can get adequate nutrition...

ETA: I also spent some time the last few days to make a list of what is low-histamine vs. sals vs. amines -- I am still trying to figure out if my problem is sals or amines/histamine or both.

Here is what I came up with: I don't seem to react to these fruits:
gold del apple, pear, cantaloupe (vh in sals) and I used to eat a lot of dried apricot without any reaction but that should be high in sals & histamine but not amine? I also used to eat cherry jam with no reactions ... quit when I went on this diet.

Veg: Cabbage, Celery, garlic, Lettuce, Green Beans, sweet potatoes russet potatoes all fine; seem to tolerate moderate amounts of onion (like eating several times a day -cooked), cucumber with no skin, some cooked carrots (sometimes carrots make me feel stuffy), need to try asparagus challenge; usually black beans are fine but had an episode a few months ago where I had some bumps/itchy rash on my neck hours after eating them -- same thing has happened with eggs sometimes -- but I eat eggs a lot with no reaction -- thinking both of these were from overcooking/histamine/amine ... rash went away quickly with vitamin c and some benadryl lotion.

Nuts: I eat a lot of raw cashews ... I've avoided all other nuts except for trying raw almonds about a month or so ago -- with no clear reaction, but I only ate 2 almonds. I've also tried coconut oil with no reaction and freshly opened coconut milk with no reaction ... but coconut pudding with dessicated coconut I had sinus pressure immediately...could have been a build up reaction, not sure.

I also can tolerate small amounts of yogurt (not too much or heavily fermented), some mozzarella cheese but only 1-2 slices or my faces feels tingly. Othere cheeses have made me wheeze/asthma reactions.
I was tolerating whole wheat just fine but this past month was doing a low/no gluten challenge -- I was still eating steel cut oats and oat bran, though.

My worst reactions were to old food/leftovers, certain cheeses, highly spiced foods, mustard, black pepper, fresh blueberries, sometimes tomatoe sauce would trigger a reaction (but not always) and not fresh tomatoes. I'm so confused and I really wish I could narrow it down to one food chemical so my diet could be richer.
I avoid corn and rice because of allergies. I eat a lot of chicken, beef and eggs now for protein.
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#185 of 391 Old 03-01-2010, 06:22 PM
 
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Adamsmama, the problem with the food lists is that they aren't always right/in agreement. Canteloupe is moderate sals on the list I consult (and that would agree with my DS not reacting to it). I have found it easiest just to keep track of what DS reacts to and keep that low, even if it isn't clear what "list" it's on!

I don't think any digestive enzymes are an issue during pg, including no fenol, but it doesn't work for everyone either...

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#186 of 391 Old 03-02-2010, 03:50 PM
 
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Does anyone know about phytic acid in certain grains (especially oats)? I'm wondering if this could have anything to do with lowered immune health and lowered vitamins/minerals? I've read about soaking grains but would this be bad for amine/histamine intolerance? This is so confusing at times...
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#187 of 391 Old 03-03-2010, 01:04 AM
 
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Adamsmama

Aged things would be amine problems... and those foods like the pepper and herbs ,tomato are in the high category of salicylates.

If you are still eating beef I would not eat that for awhile and see if you are doing any differently.Preferably do a total elimination diet if you have not already.

I found that some foods often make me feel better for around five hours so it was difficult to really get a full picture of the true sensitivity ... The reaction revs up my adrenals so I get a temporary relief from my constant fatigue. I find a total elimination diet was essential in order to truly see how I really react..

nanci
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#188 of 391 Old 03-03-2010, 01:14 AM
 
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Oats have phytates, but not a lot of phytase (to break it down), so if you soak oats, add some buckwheat or other high phytase grain.

However, fermented stuff is higher in histamines.

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#189 of 391 Old 03-03-2010, 10:03 AM
 
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I have done a total elimination diet but just failed to do the challenges correctly. I did this diet back in summer/fall 08 ... prior to this I was having a lot of bad reactions to "everything" or so it seemed. I know spices are one of the worst offenders, including black pepper. I can do fresh basil and garlic, though. I know aged things would be high in histamine/amines and maybe even mold (one of worst true allergies). I just want a more balanced diet and I feel that these intolerances are blocking me from being truly healthy but to clear up the intolerances I need to eat better and it is a vicious circle. I would love to eat whole food probiotics and more vegetables but it seems I won't be able to.

ETA: I was doing the failsafe (and still am) but the challenge for amines was not doable ... first because I can not eat bananas (they make me feel sick) and I was so addicted to chocolate (like really addicted) that when I finally went chocolate free I realized it had been causing me anxiety and ocd symptoms that magically went away when I stopped eating that and tomatoes (I cut them both out together ... both I was addicted to, it seems).
I know amines or histamine, not sure which one, is a huge problem for me ... I'm still trying to figure out the salicylates part of this and how much I can handle.
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#190 of 391 Old 03-05-2010, 05:03 PM
 
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Hi Adamsmama

I really dont know alot of what is going on.. I am like you-- very sensitive. I did not go off all food groups until this year .. after 33 years of problems.. I really wish I had first known about it and two had the courage last spring when I heard about it to do the elimination diet.. I cannot see it getting better when eating offending foods??
.. I react to pretty well all foods and have a very poor diet.. am very worried about that as I also have alot of problems with vitamins and cannot take some that i figure I really need.. The vitamins being made from things I am sensitive to.

I just know that when I am eating anything ,, even an eeney weeney bit of something I am bad with it just does not pay off in the end as my system gets so ennervated.

My problem , which I do not totally understand, is that I will feel an initial improvement. and now will feel almost better for around 5 hours before then crashing with fatigue, sensitivity overload, not sleeping etc.
. I have heard this is because the adrenals get overactive when challenged with the offending sensitivity.

Like this morning I was having intense pain in my bladder/lower bowel area/ cervix?? { a usual for me after many years and still wondering about going for some more medical tests to try and figure it out } ,,then I had epsom salts bath and that pain, fatigue, fevers have gone away..

Now I am just beginning to think that the epsom salts is doing what happens with foods I am sensitive to , ie is it just revving up my system to mask the true fatigue I have??

.. It is all soooo complicated.. I kind of feel like there will be no end ,and definitely not a good end..Is there any reason for the temporary "high" other that the adrenals are pumping out more cortisol?? Does anyone have this problem??

I have started taking hydrocortisol cream without and doctors supervision as I feel desperate.. and it is helping with my fatigue and sweating..

Just thinking about the epsom salts.. I do think I sleep alright with epsom salts baths.. And I know waking up at 4 am is always an indication I have reacted to something I had that previous day.>Yes I will have the epsom salts throughout the day today and see if I sleep okay.. Thanks for listening and allowing me to think logically of some direction in my next attempt at healing this all..

nanci
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#191 of 391 Old 03-13-2010, 02:54 PM
 
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I increased the number of epsom salts soaks and have noticed a marvellous improvement.. I find I need to apply some every few hours to maintain the help for exhaustion, sweats, fevers,and pain in my bladder area. I am using a paint brush to apply it to my skin all over. I let it dry, then rewet once or twice.. then brush off the remaining white powder'

It is very time consuming . I tried eating a food grade epsom salts but my gallbladder was affected badly..

Does anyone know of any other means of getting sulfate.??. and not through glucosamine/chondriotin sulfate which I cannot tolerate. .

nanci
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#192 of 391 Old 03-13-2010, 03:59 PM
 
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There is a magnesium sulfate cream, I think Kirkland makes it? You can also make your own with epsom salts:

www.enzymestuff.com/epsomsalts.htm

another page on sensory stuff

www.enzymestuff.com/conditionsensory.htm

My sal sensitivity builds up, so an elimination diet wouldn't necessarily be revealing to someone like me. The first time, or the 4th time, I have something I might be okay. But the 5th day in a row, or together with other high sal foods and my bucket is full. I need to go do a bath right now in fact! I only had one bath this week and still kept up eating high sal. Too many days in a row of Earl Grey tea and then my homemade ketchup with cayenne and honey mustard led to some bladder twinges today.
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#193 of 391 Old 03-13-2010, 04:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Adamsmama View Post
Does anyone know about phytic acid in certain grains (especially oats)? I'm wondering if this could have anything to do with lowered immune health and lowered vitamins/minerals? I've read about soaking grains but would this be bad for amine/histamine intolerance? This is so confusing at times...
Yes, when my DS was extra sensitive we did digestive enzymes instead to help break down the phytase.
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#194 of 391 Old 03-13-2010, 05:27 PM
 
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For salicylates, you need magnesium, sulfate and molybdenum and B6. Glutathione and glycine in bone broths too. And you just need a tablespoon of whole food probiotics to get HUGE probiotics benefits.

Here are some additional sources of topical sulfate, especially beneficial for eczema. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...e#post15146437

Molybdenum is a critical nutrient in the sulfoxidation pathway. Common sources of molybdenum include legumes (beans, peas, and lentils), grains, leafy vegetables, liver, and nuts.http://www.moyak.com/papers/molybden...tioxidant.html

http://www.detoxpuzzle.com/sulfate.php

Here is the Kirkman's Epsom salt cream. http://www.kirkmanlabs.com/ViewProdu...[email protected]#b

Also, consider black seed oil (nigella sativa). It is beneficial as a traditional anti-inflammatory.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669258


Pat

I have a blog.
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#195 of 391 Old 03-14-2010, 02:24 PM
 
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nanciswell, can't you just put the epsom salts solution in a spray bottle?
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#196 of 391 Old 03-14-2010, 03:38 PM
 
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Is coconut water high in sals or amines/histamine?
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#197 of 391 Old 03-14-2010, 03:43 PM
 
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I increased the number of epsom salts soaks and have noticed a marvellous improvement.. I find I need to apply some every few hours to maintain the help for exhaustion, sweats, fevers,and pain in my bladder area. I am using a paint brush to apply it to my skin all over. I let it dry, then rewet once or twice.. then brush off the remaining white powder'

It is very time consuming . I tried eating a food grade epsom salts but my gallbladder was affected badly..

Does anyone know of any other means of getting sulfate.??. and not through glucosamine/chondriotin sulfate which I cannot tolerate. .

nanci
Sulfate isn't absorbed well in the gut at all, so I would skip over any form of swallowing it. Besides absorbing it through the skin, I'd work on detox pathways to make more of your own and use what you have more effectively - so sulfoxidation (Mo/B6, Mag, sulfur foods) and identifying any others that aren't working so well and putting an extra burden on sulfation.

allergy-nutrition mama, dh, 4yo dd, and March ds
Eating shouldn't be stressful!
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#198 of 391 Old 03-14-2010, 07:41 PM
 
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I'm thinking of testing for a safe level of sals for ds. What would be a good level to start with? I'm thinking of setting a certain level (maybe .5 or 1 mg per day?) and eating that much in sals for about a week. Would something like this work?

Becky, partner to Teague, SAHM to Keagan (7yo), Jonah (2yo)
 

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#199 of 391 Old 03-14-2010, 08:15 PM
 
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I'm working on histamine issues. What brands are best for Vit. C and B-complex?
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#200 of 391 Old 03-14-2010, 08:16 PM
 
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In my experience, no - it depends a lot on other factors (intake of vitamins that day, intake of other foods that boost/use up magnesium, other phenols) - and the lists that say how much sals are in foods are notoriously hard to use in any quantitative sense. This is partly because no two apples will have the same level of sals - depends on where they were grown, when they were picked, size, type... so even the same food might have different sals levels on different days.

If you do decide to trial sals, we found that veggies and coconut products worked better than fruit - pretty much any fruit early on was a disaster, but most veggies were OK.

What we have found is that once we ate low sals for a couple of months, and did lots of mag/mo/b6 supps, that then DS could tolerate more sals - and usually he just gets red cheeks if we go over a bit, and then I know to back off for a couple of days. But that didn't work early on - we really did need to avoid them for quite a while. Can you trial back in some other foods instead of sals for the next little bit?

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#201 of 391 Old 03-14-2010, 08:33 PM
 
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Hmmm...I ate 1/2 a papaya 2 days ago, and his cheeks looked awful- so red and chapped. I had also tried cocoa butter on them all day the same day (to test that out). I assumed it was the cocoa butter, but I guess it could have been either one. hmmm... They look better today, after a full day of no sals and no cocoa butter (only canola oil. I think I'll buy some palm oil to try out).

I could trial gf oats- I have a cookie recipe that I could make if I had oats. All the other ingredients should be fine. I was thinking some veggies would add the most nutrition, but cookies would make me happy (and all the gf flour has stuff I'm unsure about).

I also need to trial corn (corn starch etc, not whole corn necessarily) at some point. That would open up some options (though not necessarily the most nutritious).

Becky, partner to Teague, SAHM to Keagan (7yo), Jonah (2yo)
 

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#202 of 391 Old 03-14-2010, 08:41 PM
 
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Hmmm...I ate 1/2 a papaya 2 days ago, and his cheeks looked awful- so red and chapped. I had also tried cocoa butter on them all day the same day (to test that out). I assumed it was the cocoa butter, but I guess it could have been either one. hmmm... They look better today, after a full day of no sals and no cocoa butter (only canola oil. I think I'll buy some palm oil to try out).

I could trial gf oats- I have a cookie recipe that I could make if I had oats. All the other ingredients should be fine. I was thinking some veggies would add the most nutrition, but cookies would make me happy (and all the gf flour has stuff I'm unsure about).

I also need to trial corn (corn starch etc, not whole corn necessarily) at some point. That would open up some options (though not necessarily the most nutritious).
Definitely go for adding things that will make you happy at this point ... I'd avoid too much corn, it's higher in sals and problematic for other reasons too. You can sub tapioca starch/flour easily for corn starch, if you need it for baking.

It sounds like your son is pretty sals sensitive still, so I'd definitely work on expanding your diet on the low sals list (and then maybe try some moderate sals veggies - carrots, peas, etc and see how those go).

You're not too long now from being able to trial gluten as well, right?

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#203 of 391 Old 03-14-2010, 11:59 PM
 
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Not too far from trialling gluten I've been GF for 3 weeks, and wheat free for 5w. Though I just read that millet can be x-con with wheat, and I had millet recently.

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#204 of 391 Old 03-15-2010, 12:30 AM
 
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Not too far from trialling gluten I've been GF for 3 weeks, and wheat free for 5w. Though I just read that millet can be x-con with wheat, and I had millet recently.
Lots of us who are GF eat millet, I wouldn't worry a lot about xcon at that level right now.

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#205 of 391 Old 03-15-2010, 12:50 AM
 
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Awesome!!

I must say that after a couple weeks of VERY low sals (mostly failsafe foods)and no food additives, his rash is looking really good. He still gets a very light rash as the day progresses, but that might be friction. It's more noticable on days when we go out and he's in a diaper longer. It's still barely noticable to anyone but me, so definitely not the bright red welt/burn rash from before! I may cut out amines at some point, just to check, but for now I need to add in more nutritious foods before I take anything out.

Oh and his sleep is getting much better! He hasn't had a midnight play session in a week, and he's only nursing up to 5 times a night, instead of all night long every half hour. He's still not sleeping enough, but when he does sleep he's much more settled.

He still pees 10+ times a day. Maybe that's just him, and not a sals problem though. lol. The day after he had an itsy taste of strawberry jam (with colour and benzoates in it) he peed 7 times in 4 hours! Could be a coincidence, but that's totally out of the norm for him.

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#206 of 391 Old 03-16-2010, 11:53 PM
 
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I'd like to add a veggie to ds's diet. What should I try? I'd like to add a green veggie, but I'd be content with either black beans or lentils.

I'm 99% sure his trigger is sals (yeah, I take a long time to convince ). Added in soy, eggs, and dairy, and those all seem fine (I did only give each 4 days instead of a week though). I gave him carrot last night, thinking that it might be ok because it's relatively low in sals, and I'm eating very few sals. He ate about 1 or 2 tsp of it (teaspoons, not tablespoons). He got a rash- not too bad, but enough to denote a reaction.
I did add in a few low sal veggies- asparagus and tomato in very limited amounts. I also ate half a carrot last night, when he ate his carrot.

He seems really sensitive. I'd think that the amount of sals in breastmilk would be much lower than what I consumed. sigh. I've read that the most sensitive 5% of sensitive people can tolerate 2.6mg of sals. I'm consuming MUCH much less than that (I couldn't have had more than 1mg in the entire last week), and still the carrot gave him a rash.

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#207 of 391 Old 03-17-2010, 12:02 AM
 
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Tomatoes aren't low sals, sorry .

Congrats on adding back in some foods, that's great!

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#208 of 391 Old 03-17-2010, 12:19 AM
 
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Hmmm...the list I was looking at says fresh tomatoes are low. grrr. I love them- I was so happy to have a few slices!

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#209 of 391 Old 03-17-2010, 12:28 AM
 
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At least moderate, and high in terms of reactivity in this house. Also high in histamines (so amines) and other phenols, so most sals sensitive people react pretty strongly to tomatoes.

If your son is as sensitive as he seems right now, I'd focus on non-sals foods and adding supplements - those are the two strategies that will give you back more sals down the road...

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#210 of 391 Old 03-17-2010, 02:04 AM
 
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I thought I would post my qns here, this is where all the experts are

1. Is there a connection between fructose malabsorption (FM) and sals intolerance? A friend was diagnosed with FM and I was looking at the yahoo support group for FM people and it seemed that fruits and veggies are a problem. Almost exactly like for sals. Pears and bananas are supposed to be sals free, FM people can't have them, but my kids have trouble digesting them, so I wonder if I am looking at the wrong thing. The issue with pears and bananas seems to be different than the sals, could they have both problems?

2. There is a medicine (sucraid) for FM that apparently works wonders for some people. Has anyone tried it? I would not want to use it to reintroduce gluten or other things that are bad for the digestive system, but, man, it would be great to get our fruits and veggies back!

Thanks!

Mom to DS (04) , DD ( 07) , DS ( 09)
dulce_mami is offline  
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