Leaky gut and problems digesting carbs - time for enzymes? - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 9 Old 07-06-2009, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
mamafish9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So, trying to get a handle on DS' issues still. Things seem to be shifting. We started with what I thought was (and still may be) salicylates sensitivity and casein sensitivity (and probably gluten, but haven't trialed that.

Lately, it is clear that complex starches (corn, potato) are a problem. Also, he reacts sharply to some high sals foods (fruit in particular), and not others (like coconut/olive oil). And he reacts sharply to too much sugar. He doesn't react to grains, although almost all of our grains are presoaked or soured with kefir.

So I started searching for something related to leaky gut that would impact carb digestion (carbs ranging from sugar to corn/potato). I found this in Tanya's poop link (go down to #16, mucus in stools):

Quote:
Proteins are digested in the stomach but carbs need to be digested in the intestines. If your child has leaky gut, the intestines will form a layer of mucus in the lining to protect itself from the irritating di and polysaccharides. But it also means that the natural enzymes in the intestines cannot get to the food b/c of the layer of mucus, so it becomes fodor for the yeast, microbes and bad bacteria living there. Because the supplemental enzymes are digesting the food in the stomach, the food is not causing any more problems in the intestines and the need for protective mucus is decreasing. My son had mucus in his stools for about 3 weeks. It is the body clearing itself out and detoxing.
That would be reasonably consistent with what I see in DS (except for the fruit reactions, but that may be sals still, or something different).

We've been doing raw goat's milk kefir, and I think it has helped his stomach digestion improve a lot. However, maybe that isn't enough, and is a sign that more digestive enzyme support might be helpful?

Has anyone used digestive enzymes for a toddler? What did you use, and did you see this mucus sloughing off like the link above describes?

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
mamafish9 is offline  
#2 of 9 Old 07-06-2009, 11:28 AM
 
dannic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've used digestive enzymes. I've used Houston Neut, and Optimal Health Systems...They used to work really well for me, so I assumed they worked for dd--then I began needing more and more (I've had dig. troubles) and econ. times caused the need to stop buying...I am wanting to get DD back on, but I had a hard time gettting her to eat food with the powder on it and she wouldn't drink it in water and the chewables weren't as cost effective...sigh. (and I worried about her teeth with chewables...)

caution: one-handed nak

typos likely

dannic is offline  
#3 of 9 Old 07-06-2009, 11:54 AM
 
deditus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the LandOLakes missin the mitten
Posts: 2,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think I've told you before that I use Houston chewables with dd. We are still using only No-Fenol, as Zyme Prime makes her poop too hard (I think it is causing too much die-off) and I can't get mag into her. I am using No-Fenol more for yeast than sals, as she doesn't seem to have too much sals issues as long as she doesn't get her other allergens and I keep the chemicals out and the epsom salt baths up, and molybdenum. We also tried Peptizyde, but she wasn't tolerating that either and I do worry about celiac in our case (it is not for use by celiacs), so I dropped that. Dd did have the mucous layer slough off when I removed gluten from her diet, and then again when I removed dairy. Oh, and we did SCD-lite for a while after we first went gfcf to let dd heal. I wasn't strict at all, but I basically avoided white potatoes, grains, anything processed, and a lot of fruit.
Now when I started enzymes (Enzymedica's Digest Gold), I did have a pretty dramatic reaction. I had lots of die-off for about 2 weeks and my fungal dandruff and mild athlete's foot went away! I am glad I took a long time to research so I was prepared to protect my breastmilk.

Emily, cooking allergen free, knitting, reading, gardening Mom to 1 beautiful girl, born in the water on July 1, 2006 Wife to 1 handsome man since September 10, 2005
deditus is offline  
#4 of 9 Old 07-06-2009, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
mamafish9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks guys. I'm going to try a little bit on some of his food this morning and see what happens. I so don't want hard poops!!! We have seen some mucus, but the fact he's still having problems with so many carbs makes me wonder... I also think it's possible he has yeast issues, so I will watch for die off, I definitely don't want to stress his system too much...

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
mamafish9 is offline  
#5 of 9 Old 07-06-2009, 03:06 PM
 
Theloose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: some planet
Posts: 6,483
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reacting to some but not all sals makes it sound like he's not reacting to sals... Have you explored phenols and other similar compounds? Or maybe it's not worth figuring out the details...

Amylase enzymes work best at a neutral-ish pH like in the mouth or the intestine, and can be denatured in the acid stomach. If they're actively working on starch, that seems to help protect them from being denatured, though. I don't know how that interacts with taking supplemental enzymes and low vs normal stomach acid. I do know that when I was having starch issues and started taking enzymes, I didn't experience any die off or mucous or anything - it was pure improvement.

Interestingly, we don't seem to have any trouble with disaccharides (digested by the brush border in the intestines, this is what would be blocked by mucous) but starch might be a bigger issue (digested into disaccharides by salivary amylase in the mouth/stomach and pancreatic amylase in the intestines)

allergy-nutrition mama, dh, 4yo dd, and March ds
Eating shouldn't be stressful!
Theloose is offline  
#6 of 9 Old 07-06-2009, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
mamafish9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Reacting to some but not all sals makes it sound like he's not reacting to sals... Have you explored phenols and other similar compounds? Or maybe it's not worth figuring out the details...

Amylase enzymes work best at a neutral-ish pH like in the mouth or the intestine, and can be denatured in the acid stomach. If they're actively working on starch, that seems to help protect them from being denatured, though. I don't know how that interacts with taking supplemental enzymes and low vs normal stomach acid. I do know that when I was having starch issues and started taking enzymes, I didn't experience any die off or mucous or anything - it was pure improvement.

Interestingly, we don't seem to have any trouble with disaccharides (digested by the brush border in the intestines, this is what would be blocked by mucous) but starch might be a bigger issue (digested into disaccharides by salivary amylase in the mouth/stomach and pancreatic amylase in the intestines)
LOL - yeah, I'm thinking sals might not be the actual problem at all - but I figured I'd try a broad brush enzymes fix first, and then see what else we were dealing with! Enzymes have been life changing for DH, so I figure it's a reasonable thing to try.

Thanks for the details on the brush border - that's helpful to think about. It seems to be a volume issue for him - he can handle some disaccharides, but not a lot. So either not enough gut enzymes, or some of them are blocked (like with the mucous). Starches, I'm pretty sure he doesn't chew enough to get much amylase. I think his stomach acid is doing better with the kefir (he passes the beet test, at least), but I think he needs more help to get the starches processed, especially ones I'm not soaking/souring/sprouting.

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
mamafish9 is offline  
#7 of 9 Old 07-07-2009, 01:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
mamafish9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,459
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
Interestingly, we don't seem to have any trouble with disaccharides (digested by the brush border in the intestines, this is what would be blocked by mucous) but starch might be a bigger issue (digested into disaccharides by salivary amylase in the mouth/stomach and pancreatic amylase in the intestines)
Quoting you twice, LOL! I did some research, and it sounds like there is an important step in starch digestion where amylopectin and amylose are broken down into maltose by maltase enzymes, which hang out in the brush border as well. So mucous could mess with that as well as with disaccharides (maybe our problem). For you, if disaccharides aren't a problem, then probably the maltase step is fine for you, and you have starch digestion issues maybe for different reasons than we do?

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
mamafish9 is offline  
#8 of 9 Old 07-07-2009, 02:28 AM
 
WC_hapamama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Another rock you might want to look under is, does your child have a pancreatic insufficiency?
WC_hapamama is offline  
#9 of 9 Old 07-07-2009, 09:14 AM
 
Theloose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: some planet
Posts: 6,483
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
Quoting you twice, LOL! I did some research, and it sounds like there is an important step in starch digestion where amylopectin and amylose are broken down into maltose by maltase enzymes, which hang out in the brush border as well. So mucous could mess with that as well as with disaccharides (maybe our problem). For you, if disaccharides aren't a problem, then probably the maltase step is fine for you, and you have starch digestion issues maybe for different reasons than we do?
Yeah, different reasons seem to be the running theme for us here...
My understanding of starch digestion is that you start with a giant blob of glucose that's all interlinked in chains (amylose?) and branches (amylopectin?). Amylase from the saliva or the pancreas comes along and breaks up the blob into twos and threes. The twos are maltose or isomaltose, depending on whether it's a chain bond or a branch bond. Maltose, sucrose, lactose, etc are all disaccharides, and they're broken apart by their appropriate disaccharidases (maltase, sucrase, lactase), which are the ones in the brush border.

If you think you've mainly got maltose issues, then that sounds like the basis of the SCD, and that might be really helpful. I don't *think* we have disaccharide issues, on the basis that sugar seems fine, and mass quantities of white or brown rice seem fine. You're making me think though, I like it! (if only it weren't 5am )

allergy-nutrition mama, dh, 4yo dd, and March ds
Eating shouldn't be stressful!
Theloose is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off