Phenol sulphur transferase - Do I have this right? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 12 Old 12-04-2009, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dd has phenol/sals issues and problems with sulphur foods (cabbage, broccoli etc.) I have posted on this before but I have found a few sites that connect the two issues (?) and I want to see if I am understanding this correctly.

Foods & Supplements That Inhibit PST

Source for the following info: http://www.allnaturaladvantage.com.a...on_diagram.htm

Vitamin B6

B6 in the form of P5P (pyridoxal-5-phosphate) inhibits PST (phenol sulphur-transferase) activity. (This could be why some children show adverse effects when supplements high in P5P are started) However the same study showed that increasing magnesium supplementation reverses this inhibition.

ARI got Rosemary Waring to do the research that showed that B6 can inhibit human sulfotransferases, but they are activated by magnesium so that if you have at least a 1:1 mix of B6:Mg there is no problem. This is why, if you have a problem with B6, try to see if taking magnesium will help.


Foods that inhibit these sulphation enzymes are: oranges, spinach, radishes, grapefruit, beetroot, peppers, pumpkins and tomatoes. Other foods that inhibit sulphation are bananas, cheese and chocolate.

Sulphation is also reduced by excessive levels of molybdenum or vitamin B6 (> 100mg/ day).


Following from http://www.allnaturaladvantage.com.a...ensitivity.htm

Excess boron interferes with the metabolism (breakdown and excretion) of phenols. Ritalin, used in the treatment of ADHD, inhibits the metabolism of coumarins (phenols). Boron is found in apples, pears, grapes, nuts, leafy green vegetables, and legumes. Supplying these substances, especially apples, pears, and grapes, or their juices in large amounts to PST deficient children, will cause a build up of phenols, amines, salicylates, and other toxic substances normally cleared by PST.

Supplementation with digestive enzymes (pancreatic enzymes) seems particularly beneficial for those suffering the PST/sulphate problem.

Cranberry juice has been anecdotally reported to reduce or even eliminate these effects. Whether this due to the sulphur content of the juice or some other mechanism including placebo remains to be determined.


So in addition to eating low phenols and sals I should stay away from oranges, spinach, radishes, grapefruit, beetroot, peppers, pumpkins and tomatoes. Other foods that inhibit sulphation are bananas, cheese and chocolate. Boron foods apples, pears, grapes, nuts, leafy green vegetables, and legumes.

Increase my Mag, Mo and epsom salt baths. What about the cranberry idea? How much should I take and how much should I try to get into dd? I have the Brainchild Mag and a sample of there Mo. We are already taking Trienza and No Phenol but do I need to add a pancreatic enzyme? What about seeds like sunflower, would they still be okay? Is the B6 only a problem from supplements or are foods high in B6 a problem?

I just looked up foods high in B6 and a lot of those foods she can't handle. http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...rient&dbid=108 So I should avoid these as well until I find the right balance of Mag:B6? In theory if I up the Mag then she should be able to handle more B6 foods? How to find the right balance is the issue.

Am I on the right track or going the wrong way?

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#2 of 12 Old 12-05-2009, 05:16 PM
 
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Look at you go girl!! That was a lot for us to follow.

My opinion is that ADDing nutrients, rather than eliminating them- by way of skipping individual foods, is preferable. I'd rather up my magnesium, alongside consuming my B6 foods, molybdenum foods and sulphur foods.

As far as enzymes go, I prefer natural sources, rather than laboratory modified and grown/developed enzyme sources. So, including raw plant foods high in enzymes is ideal, imo.

"All raw food naturally contains the proper types and proportions of enzymes necessary to digest itself–whether in human consumption or natural decomposition. When raw food is eaten, chewing ruptures the cell membranes and releases the enzymes to begin breakdown."

http://www.alive.com/8a1a2.php?subject_bread_cramb=192

Stomach acid is a huge component also.


Drink green juice and green smoothies. Daily.


PAt

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#3 of 12 Old 12-05-2009, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Lets see if I can multi quote your response.
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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post

My opinion is that ADDing nutrients, rather than eliminating them- by way of skipping individual foods, is preferable. I'd rather up my magnesium, alongside consuming my B6 foods, molybdenum foods and sulphur foods.
I will not be afraid. I will not be afraid. My new mantra! I ate half an avocado and two bananas yesterday in great fear and anticipation of the possible reactions. I am so sick and tired of being afraid to eat. I will start adding foods slowly for the nutritional value and hope for the rest. Ideas for molybdenum foods? I will also start researching online.

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As far as enzymes go, I prefer natural sources, rather than laboratory modified and grown/developed enzyme sources. So, including raw plant foods high in enzymes is ideal, imo.

"All raw food naturally contains the proper types and proportions of enzymes necessary to digest itself–whether in human consumption or natural decomposition. When raw food is eaten, chewing ruptures the cell membranes and releases the enzymes to begin breakdown."

http://www.alive.com/8a1a2.php?subject_bread_cramb=192
The natural sources of enzymes would be...? The enzymes we have been taking have solved the undigested food in Dd and myself which is why I have continued to take them. Should we slowly reduce them or stop cold turkey?


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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Stomach acid is a huge component also.
How do I check to see if our stomach acid is up to par? If it is not then how should we fix it? I used to do hot lemon water before each meal but that gave dd a huge stomach ache after nursing. Maybe I start with a tiny bit and build up to it?



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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Drink green juice and green smoothies. Daily.
What would be a good rotation of greens to use in smoothies? I have read very briefly about them and the caution of using the same greens repeatedly, like spinach, and having problems from it. I was doing grn smoothies for a while and felt great doing them.


PAt[/QUOTE]

Thanks Pat!

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#4 of 12 Old 12-07-2009, 12:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beadmama View Post
I will not be afraid. I will not be afraid. My new mantra! I ate half an avocado and two bananas yesterday in great fear and anticipation of the possible reactions. I am so sick and tired of being afraid to eat. I will start adding foods slowly for the nutritional value and hope for the rest. Ideas for molybdenum foods? I will also start researching online.
It's a tough one. We're so much more relaxed about food now, though still avoid a bunch. My criteria is whether the reaction is bearable - so if it really messes up poop (potentially causing gut damage?) or really messes up behavior/sleep, then it's out. Or if it's potentially IgE, it's out. Any other symptoms/whatever I interpret as a nutrient deficiency/imbalance rather than a food reaction. It's definitely saved some sanity over here...

Best source of Mo is lentils, followed by other legumes - it's used for nitrogen fixing in plants. I think liver and kidney are also high, but I haven't seen numbers to compare them.

Quote:
How do I check to see if our stomach acid is up to par? If it is not then how should we fix it? I used to do hot lemon water before each meal but that gave dd a huge stomach ache after nursing. Maybe I start with a tiny bit and build up to it?
If beets turn your pee pink, you're probably low on stomach acid (and likely zinc/B12 due to malabsorption). Histamine foods will promote the release of stomach acid, so can slowly fix the issue, especially if you're eating plenty of zinc-rich foods (oysters, other animal protein, and pumpkin seeds all have a good zinc/copper balance) since zinc is needed for the enzyme that makes stomach acid. Here's the stomach acid thread

Lemon water is a good tonic for the liver, but that means it can also clear out some of the bad stuff and pass it through your milk. My dd got bloody stool after I had fresh-squeezed limeade after a hike.

allergy-nutrition mama, dh, 4yo dd, and March ds
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#5 of 12 Old 12-07-2009, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My criteria is whether the reaction is bearable - so if it really messes up poop (potentially causing gut damage?) or really messes up behavior/sleep, then it's out. Or if it's potentially IgE, it's out. Any other symptoms/whatever I interpret as a nutrient deficiency/imbalance rather than a food reaction. It's definitely saved some sanity over here...
I can count on one hand the number of normal poops Dd has had but some are worse than others. This morning it was mostly liquid. It can either be her cold, teething or the squash we tried. Sleep is still at 1.5 - 2 hour increments so hopefully the more Mag foods I eat it will help. No IgE signs yet and we are waiting for her IgG and OAT results.

Quote:
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Best source of Mo is lentils, followed by other legumes - it's used for nitrogen fixing in plants. I think liver and kidney are also high, but I haven't seen numbers to compare them.
I happen to have a jar of lentils in the cupboard that I have yet to try. I will start those tomorrow!


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoMe View Post
If beets turn your pee pink, you're probably low on stomach acid (and likely zinc/B12 due to malabsorption). Histamine foods will promote the release of stomach acid, so can slowly fix the issue, especially if you're eating plenty of zinc-rich foods (oysters, other animal protein, and pumpkin seeds all have a good zinc/copper balance) since zinc is needed for the enzyme that makes stomach acid. .
I will pick up some beets and give it a whirl. She has big behavior issues with pumpkin so I will pass on those. Or would it be good to eat them despite the reaction? Hmmm... I will research some more zinc foods and see what we can do. I will also research histamine foods.

Thanks for the help

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#6 of 12 Old 12-07-2009, 02:44 AM
 
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A different perspective here. We had huge sals sensitivity, clear magnesium deficiency, and b6 supps in high doses (20mg a day of active b6 - P5P for a 2.5 year old) made a huge difference.

I think that if you've dug yourself into a deficiency situation, or you or your LOs have an unusually high need for certain nutrients (like I think my DS does for zinc and b6, maybe mag), then it's almost impossible to get to a good place only with food.

We are working hard on food nutrients, but I'm also doing plenty of supplements and enzymes - and we've seen amazing progress in the last 8 months.

From your original post, it takes a LOT of supplemental b6 to inhibit PST. I'd say it's more likely you're deficient, unless you've been supping megadoses. They're talking about the hugely high b6 supps some kids on the autism spectrum take. I wouldn't let that scare you away from b6 foods or supps.

And if enzymes are helping, I wouldn't reduce them until you've improved your zinc (the likely cause of undigested foods). Do food enzymes TOO, if that feels right, but if you've found things that help, keep doing those too .

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#7 of 12 Old 12-07-2009, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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A different perspective here. We had huge sals sensitivity, clear magnesium deficiency, and b6 supps in high doses (20mg a day of active b6 - P5P for a 2.5 year old) made a huge difference.
How do you know if you are deficient? Would her OAT results show that or my own blood work?

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Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
I think that if you've dug yourself into a deficiency situation, or you or your LOs have an unusually high need for certain nutrients (like I think my DS does for zinc and b6, maybe mag), then it's almost impossible to get to a good place only with food.
I agree that it will be hard with food but I am going to start adding them in as they certainly won't hurt. It is hard to add supplements because of reaction possibilities, kwim? Which brand is safe, few ingredients etc...

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Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
From your original post, it takes a LOT of supplemental b6 to inhibit PST. I'd say it's more likely you're deficient, unless you've been supping megadoses. They're talking about the hugely high b6 supps some kids on the autism spectrum take. I wouldn't let that scare you away from b6 foods or supps.
She has big problems with sulphur foods. Her poop becomes VERY ammonia smelling and mushy. Her Dr. said to do epsom salt baths/lotions and to stay away from sulphur foods. I am going to start adding them back in slowly and continue with the epsom and see what happens. We were doing GAPS and eating a ton of broccoli, cauliflower etc. so I think that really overwhelmed our systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
And if enzymes are helping, I wouldn't reduce them until you've improved your zinc (the likely cause of undigested foods). Do food enzymes TOO, if that feels right, but if you've found things that help, keep doing those too .
I am still doing the enzymes and plan on sticking with them until we are doing much better. I just need to figure out the stomach acid situation. If you take HCL what type do you take? I have a really hard time getting any supps. into dd as she mostly nurses so I can't hide them in juice or food.

Thanks for your help!

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#8 of 12 Old 12-07-2009, 07:24 PM
 
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We don't take HCL - I supped zinc, which is usually what is low with low stomach acid. We still do some enzymes, but they're not nearly as necessary as they used to be (no undigested food in poop if we miss them, but we've reintroduced gluten and casein, so I keep the enzymes up to help with those).

For knowing deficiencies, we did a hair test, which confirmed low zinc and mag. But looking at the symptoms is the best clue. If you're seeing problems with undigested food, that usually equals zinc deficiency. Supping high quality zinc in decent amounts (at least 10mg a day, split into 3-4 doses) should produce some noticeable results in a few weeks.

Same with mag, although there we see the effects far faster (within a few hours now, within a couple days when we started). And b6 helps mag get utilized - so we see low mag symptoms if we aren't giving DS enough b6.

I understand how hard it is to find supps that will work, my DS reacts badly to lots of them. But it has made huge differences for us, so personally, I think it is worth the effort.

It sounds like the GAPS diet ran down some of the nutrients you'd use to digest sulfur foods and phenols, so it seems highly likely you're deficient in at least one of mag/b6/molybdenum. And it also sounds like that may be a fairly recent thing, so good supps could reverse if fairly quickly.

I used brainchild supps to start with, and now I've taught DS to swallow small capsules, so I use Thorne stuff (available at iherb.com) and I just repackage it into smaller capsules.

Question - does your daughter have problems with all high sulfur foods, or just the fibrous veggies? If so, it might not be the sulfur itself that is the issue, but the fiber (which would point to low zinc again).

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#9 of 12 Old 12-07-2009, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We don't take HCL - I supped zinc, which is usually what is low with low stomach acid.
Sounds good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamafish9 View Post
For knowing deficiencies, we did a hair test, which confirmed low zinc and mag. But looking at the symptoms is the best clue. If you're seeing problems with undigested food, that usually equals zinc deficiency. Supping high quality zinc in decent amounts (at least 10mg a day, split into 3-4 doses) should produce some noticeable results in a few weeks.

Same with mag, although there we see the effects far faster (within a few hours now, within a couple days when we started). And b6 helps mag get utilized - so we see low mag symptoms if we aren't giving DS enough b6.
Great info, thanks.


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Question - does your daughter have problems with all high sulfur foods, or just the fibrous veggies? If so, it might not be the sulfur itself that is the issue, but the fiber (which would point to low zinc again).
Your right, it could just be the fiber. I have never gotten her to baseline so everything has been a suspect in my book. Hopefully the supplements will help get us in a better position to figure out what is really bothering her.

I have also started to research food combining information as that might be a problem with our digestion issues as well.

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#10 of 12 Old 06-08-2016, 06:43 PM
 
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I know this post is really old and I probably shouldn't comment but I'm in the same boat as the OP and wondering if any of you are still on the forums all of these years later and available to chat with me? I made a post recently about my DD's food sensitivities hoping someone who could relate might comment. So far no luck. I'm hoping to find a forum to connect with moms dealing with the same issues. Maybe one of you could PM me or point me in the right direction. Sorry, just feeling desperate!
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#11 of 12 Old 06-08-2016, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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WOW, This is really old!! It just shows me how far we have come in our journey. For us it came down to identifying her trigger foods, Celiac Disease, Pernicious Anemia and MTHFR.

Feel free to email me directly mjpketchem @ gmail

I haven't been on these boards in 3 years! Crazy.
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#12 of 12 Old 06-08-2016, 07:11 PM
 
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beadmama, it means the world to me that you logged on to respond <3

We are trying to get her 23andme results (first sample didn't contain sufficient DNA and now I can't get her to spit I'm so bummed) and also waiting to go to a biomedical pediatrician 3+ hours away. I did a hair test and researching with Dr. Amy Yasko's nutrigenomics and methylation cycle protocol. But yes I will email you! I have dreams of a happy, healthy, stable little girl three years from now and I'm hoping that's what has happened for you! Thank you!! I'll email soon, I need to try and rest the babies actually went to sleep!
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