Our test results.... updated #12, #21, #146 - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 01:38 PM
 
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And I would just see it as an excuse to add more calcium. If she *is* getting energy from the fat, (and the ketones suggest she is) then reducing it would make for a super high protein diet with possible symptoms from THAT.
but couldn't soap being formed in the intestines cause issues? possibly even intestinal bleeding?

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#92 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 01:45 PM
 
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but couldn't soap being formed in the intestines cause issues? possibly even intestinal bleeding?
The only thing I've heard is that it can actually improve things, acting like a lubricant. But I don't remember the source at all and it was a while ago...

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#93 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 01:52 PM
 
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The only thing I've heard is that it can actually improve things, acting like a lubricant. But I don't remember the source at all and it was a while ago...
Well, I do know that ingesting soap can cause diarrhea and vomiting. I could have swore that my veterinarian friend told me that it can also cause damage to intestines (the conversation occurred because the children who lived beside us were punished for swearing by being made to eat soap- this was like 15 years ago), depending on the quantity and that vague memory is seriously concerning to me.

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#94 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 02:23 PM
 
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And if the calcium is binding with the fat now to form insoluble soaps- where no calcium was being supped previously- wouldn't that make the (prior to calcium supping) "available" fat unavailable for absorption/use anyway?

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#95 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 03:41 PM
 
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Hi Jessica,

I saw you posted your zucchini muffin recipe (I have it written down at home btw - love it ). Are you going back on buckwheat? I remembered that before you were using Azure's buckwheat and I found out that it was very likely cross contaminated with gluten/wheat. Are you using a gluten free one, like Bob's or ArrowHead Mills?



Tracy

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#96 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 03:43 PM
 
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Maybe I just really don't get it, but when I first read these results I interpreted the part about the fat to mean the baby is using up her own fat stores, as in not getting enough calories in so having to convert stored fat.

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# acetoacetic - 64.56 (0.0-10.0) [Fatty Acid Metabolites]

* (for previous 2 results) These ketones indicate increased metabolic utilization of fatty acids associated with diabetes mellitus, fasting, dieting (ketogenic or SCD diet), or illness such as nausea or flu, among many other causes.

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#97 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 03:49 PM
 
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(TMI) I took a P5P -50mg- yesterday morning with breakfast, had diarrhea an hour later. Then got really cranky and impatient last night. So... what's up with that? Is it my (possible) copper issue? How do I remedy?
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But yesterday, after doing calcium, she actually played quietly in her room and was happy for a bit. No idea if it was calcium related, or that she was actually full for a change (made potatoes for breakfast). But then by the evening, it was all tantrums and hitting again. So we'll see how today goes...
When I got started with DS, and he was really deficient in lots of stuff, the benefits of a supp only lasted for a few hours at best. And after they wore off, it seemed even worse than usual reactions. So it was really important to spread his supps evenly through the day (and mine, so my bm had a steady supply of vites too). I give him 4 sets of supps a day now (breakfast, lunch, dinner, before bed), and some mornings, I can still see the "deficiency" symptoms from going 10 hours overnight without supps. Basically, his bloodstream needs a steady supply of most vites to keep him happy - once a day would just put him on a roller coaster yoyo effect.

So personally, if you're seeing good results in the few hours after a supp, I'd try repeating it at least every few hours, and see what that does.

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#98 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Jessica,

I saw you posted your zucchini muffin recipe (I have it written down at home btw - love it ). Are you going back on buckwheat? I remembered that before you were using Azure's buckwheat and I found out that it was very likely cross contaminated with gluten/wheat. Are you using a gluten free one, like Bob's or ArrowHead Mills?



Tracy
I did give her some buckwheat the other night because she was just SO hungry, and I have a feeling that's part of the behavior issues- she's crabby because she's starving. And then I made the muffins yesterday because I wanted some buckwheat, and thought I'd try putting some calcium in...

I'm using a different brand. But I've tried 3 brands now, and all have the same results, so I really don't think it's xcon.

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Maybe I just really don't get it, but when I first read these results I interpreted the part about the fat to mean the baby is using up her own fat stores, as in not getting enough calories in so having to convert stored fat.




~Tracy
damn. My moment of mental clarity is gone. Now I'm back to . But she certainly doesn't seem like she's getting enough calories, so that might be it.

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#99 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 04:38 PM
 
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hmm
I wonder if this may boil down to simple bile production? And if so, why? Did you get her gut bacteria tested? (I can't remember the name of that test, but I remember someone else talking about it- Kathy maybe?) Apparently, giardia can cause a decrease in bile production and one of the causes of bile deficiency that I came across was bacterial dysbiosis.
Beet leaves are supposed to help with production as are artichoke extract, black radish, ginger root and dandelion root, fwiw.
Also, didn't I see something about a glycine deficiency? Glycine is necessary for synthesis of bile acids as well.

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#100 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 05:07 PM
 
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Jessica, I think when it comes down to the baby going hungry or you giving her buckwheat, you give her buckwheat (IMHO).

I know from my own experience (and I know our situation is WAY, WAY, WAY different from yours, we NEVER had the breadth and depth of problems you and your lo are experiencing right now) that you CAN do some healing while eating things that you are sensitive to. When we first fell into the lap of our Chinese Medicine/Chiro/Acupuncture woman in Feb of 2008 (baby was 5 months old and RIDDLED with eczema, only 8 lbs more than day she was born), I was only eating the 5 things of the hallmark TED. Baby had just had severe allergic reaction to formula supp she had had in the past. Doc had me start eating everything again, except tomatoes and peppers. She also had me trying to expand my diet to things I wasn't even eating before the baby was born. The focus was on good nutrition, cooked greens, bone broths, probiotic foods (saur kraut and kefir), CLO (not capsules), Flax Oil, variety. Even the supps were food based (Standard Process -some weird ingredients, let me tell you). We did a lot of healing over 5 months, but it was very, very slow (her only symptom that I was aware of and tracked was the severe, severe eczema all over her body). But it did gradually improve. Finally near the end of 5 months she was clear enough (though still plenty of lesions) that I could actually tell a correlation of when I ate something and when there was a worsening. So I started pulling things out (eggs, soy, corn). Then the dr, who seemed always hesitant to tell me to avoid any food, told me to pull wheat and dairy. By the end of another 2 months of that stuff (baby was 50 weeks old) perfectly clear skin. I KNOW she had to have been reacting to a lot more at 5 months old, when I was eating nothing, than at 1 years old after healing with the doc's recs, even while eating gluten/dairy etc.

I hate to give advice, especially since I think I am a lot less knowledgeable than many here in this forum who are reading everything and trying so much. And also because I haven't been following your story as closely as I would like. It is hard to get through most days as the single mother of 3 - no time for anything. But I just have been worried about you and your baby and wanted to bring up our journey in case anything in it resonates for you. I hope it doesn't upset you.



~Tracy

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#101 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We're still waiting for the stool test, so hopefully that will help us connect the pieces a little better.

Is glycine the same as glyceric acid? If so, her's was in the normal range.

lol- I remembered that I made bone broth a couple days ago, so decided to do that before lunch instead of trying to hide the stupid calcium powder. I put a cube of broth in a mug (I freeze it in ice cube trays) and DD just took the cube out and started munching on it before I had a chance to add hot water. She's almost through the whole cube. Who knew making soup could be so easy?!

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#102 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 05:10 PM
 
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You will be getting together with someone to discuss the results of the OAT test, right? So you will be able to get some clarifications.



~Tracy

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#103 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah- we have our followup with the DAN! doc on Tuesday.

And yeah.... I wish that I could just add all the foods back in and work on building nutrition, except that so many of ours are IgE (and more are becoming IgE it appears) that it would just be dangerous for us. But thanks for the hugs. I know you have a lot on your plate too.

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#104 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 07:43 PM
 
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I believe glycine and glyceric acid are different animals though I'm not sure how. It's also called aminoacetic or aminoethanoic acid. It's an amino acid...
Hmm. On further research, glycine is synthesized from a glyceric acid which is turned into serine (via an enzyme using FOLATE and PYRIDOXAL PHOSPHATE aka PLP, P5P or B6) and gets metabolized in 3 different ways- one of which can produce oxalates.

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#105 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 09:12 PM
 
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My personal guess on the fat metabolism results is they're likely just the natural result of eating a largely grain free, high fat, high meat diet (it's not that far off from SCD, which the lab results said could produce one of the readings you got). Just a guess, however ...

And too funny on eating a frozen soup cube!!

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#106 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But at the time of the test, we were still eating grains. Of course, they were going right through her so she probably wasn't absorbing anything from them...

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#107 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 09:30 PM
 
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But at the time of the test, we were still eating grains. Of course, they were going right through her so she probably wasn't absorbing anything from them...
LOL - yeah, that's probably the functional equivalent of a no-grains diet ...

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#108 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 09:55 PM
 
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We're still waiting for the stool test, so hopefully that will help us connect the pieces a little better.

Is glycine the same as glyceric acid? If so, her's was in the normal range.

lol- I remembered that I made bone broth a couple days ago, so decided to do that before lunch instead of trying to hide the stupid calcium powder. I put a cube of broth in a mug (I freeze it in ice cube trays) and DD just took the cube out and started munching on it before I had a chance to add hot water. She's almost through the whole cube. Who knew making soup could be so easy?!
this is BRILLIANT. aev loves ice, but not the hugest fan of soup broth. hmmm.

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#109 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, slight miscommunication with the docs office (I think.) They said they were mailing us the stool test results (after I threw a fit that they wouldn't give them to me before our appointment.) Well, I didn't get them in the mail today and the doc just called. He said he wanted to let me know that there were some pretty high markers for bacteria. (Also, none for yeast, and most beneficial bacteria looked ok except the lacto strains were slightly low.) I've started googling, and what I'm ready is freaking me out a little... and I have to go eat dinner. So if anyone wants to take a stab at the basics for me, it's:

klebsiella oxytoca

And he's recommending immediate either gse or antibiotics. arg. eta: or this product

(and Kathy, if you're reading- I saw something about this bacteria causing frequent UTIs and low back pain. Didn't keep reading though, so I'm not sure what else it said. Sorry. )

eta: just brainstorming as I'm eating dinner... I wonder if the grains are feeding the bacteria or something, which is why she suddenly can't tolerate any?

eta: ok- the freaky things I was skimming over weren't for the bacteria itself- they were from pneumonia that was caused by the bacteria. So what I'm finding is that this is a naturally occurring bacteria in the gut, but elsewhere it can cause major damage. ??

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#110 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 10:51 PM
 
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This is what the Probiotics Revolution has to say:

Klebsiella are helpful at low levels- they make vitamins B12 and K. But if they're allowed to grow too much, or if they migrate from the intestines to other places in the body, they can become harmful. For example, Klebsiella infection of the lungs is one of the leading causes of bacterial pneumonia.

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#111 of 426 Old 01-28-2010, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is what the Probiotics Revolution has to say:

Klebsiella are helpful at low levels- they make vitamins B12 and K. But if they're allowed to grow too much, or if they migrate from the intestines to other places in the body, they can become harmful. For example, Klebsiella infection of the lungs is one of the leading causes of bacterial pneumonia.
Yeah- I just keep ending up on pages talking about pneumonia. I really wish I could actually look at the test results, and figure out exactly what markers were high, because I don't see anything about klebsiella on the GP sample report or analyte list.

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#112 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 12:45 AM
 
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Treatments for bacterial dysbiosis, including overgrowth of klebsiella. (Spoiler: garlic and probiotics )

Also a discussion on celiac.com re klebsiella dysbiosis- treated with capryllic acid derived from coconut oil. Not helpful, but possibly?

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#113 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Treatments for bacterial dysbiosis, including overgrowth of klebsiella. (Spoiler: garlic and probiotics )

Also a discussion on celiac.com re klebsiella dysbiosis- treated with capryllic acid derived from coconut oil. Not helpful, but possibly?
lol- I totally just read that first one about 20 minutes ago. I did notice though that it specifies those treatments for small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. I'm wondering if they would be the same for large intestine (not that I have any idea where hers are overgrown... just curious.) I really need to look at the test results before I start theorizing any more.

Oh- and yeah, there's no way we can do a coconut oil derivative.

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#114 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 12:56 AM
 
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lol- I totally just read that first one about 20 minutes ago. I did notice though that it specifies those treatments for small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. I'm wondering if they would be the same for large intestine (not that I have any idea where hers are overgrown... just curious.) I really need to look at the test results before I start theorizing any more.

Oh- and yeah, there's no way we can do a coconut oil derivative.
Yeah, but I'm so hoping for you that it's this "simple".

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#115 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 01:02 AM
 
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If it's a small intestine bacteria, that might hold a lot of hope for you with grains - starches and sugars are digested in the small intestine. And if there are bacteria clogging the pathway to the enzymes lining the small intestine...

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#116 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah- I hope it's that simple too.

hmm... she doesn't seem to have any trouble with sugars at all, only the grains. Not that we eat much regular sugar- but we do eat a lot of honey.

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#117 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 01:37 AM
 
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Caprylic acid (coconut derived) and GSE were what we used for my enterobacter cloacae. It seems to have worked, but then again I've not had a repeat stool analysis.

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#118 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 03:42 AM
 
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A few things I picked up from different places (and possibly didn't put together correctly!):

1) that klebsiella bacteria eats starch (so it probably gets a nice meal every time your DD eats buckwheat, for example)

2) it produces hydrogen gas from the breakdown of starches

3) the lower gut can handle hydrogen gas two ways - sulfate reduction (e.g. turning sulfates into sulfites), or producing hydrogen sulfide (usually means smelly farts).

4) sulfites absorbed into the bloodstream can inhibit a lot of enzymes, including ascorbate oxidase, which looks like it metabolizes vitamin C, and enzymes that synthesize dopamine

5) sulfites activate neutrophils. neutrophils are involved in IgE reactions, histamine release, and not sure what else, I got lost here

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#119 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 10:22 AM
 
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Oh- and yeah, there's no way we can do a coconut oil derivative.
What about palm oil? It has the same medium chain fatty acid benefits in the gut as coconut oil, same antifungal benefits also.

ETA: kefir retards klebsiella growth, it was a different variant of klebsiella tested though.


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#120 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Nope, can't do palm oil either.

Thanks Deb- good info. I also read somewhere that it increases intestinal permeability, so between that and the activating neutrophils, no wonder our list of bad foods is growing.

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Caprylic acid (coconut derived) and GSE were what we used for my enterobacter cloacae. It seems to have worked, but then again I've not had a repeat stool analysis.
Thanks- good to know. I thought that I had read something bad about GSE... but I have no idea where, or what it was...

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Refbacks are Off