Our test results.... updated #12, #21, #146 - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 01:04 PM
 
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I think GSE is anti-bacterial, so it'll wipe out a wide swath of bacteria, bad and good, so you'd want to be supplementing with a probiotic separate from the GSE--I don't know how far away, I'm really not sure how frequently GSE is supposed to be used.
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#122 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 01:38 PM
 
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Yeah- I hope it's that simple too.

hmm... she doesn't seem to have any trouble with sugars at all, only the grains. Not that we eat much regular sugar- but we do eat a lot of honey.
Honey is SCD safe - it doesn't need the small intestine enzymes (disaccharidases) to be broken down, cause it's already monosaccharides

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#123 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 01:43 PM
 
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Thanks- good to know. I thought that I had read something bad about GSE... but I have no idea where, or what it was...

Here is some of the controversy related to GSE. Many mamas have had positive results, however. There is a long list of natural antifungals, antibacterials, antiparasitic, antimicrobials foods and spices to consider also.

Caution: not all are appropriate for pregnant or nursing mothers!!



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#124 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 02:36 PM
 
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In autism circles, GSE is used for yeast, but isn't as good for bacteria for most people - oil of oregano is good for bacteria, is that safe for you?

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#125 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 03:02 PM
 
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Our ND was really particular about which herbs, etc. get used for effectiveness against which bacteria or yeast. In fact, there were specific recommendations that came with my stool analysis, and a list of herbs, telling exactly which ones could work against the enterobacter cloacae and which were not effective. So I don't think I'd go wild and just try anything on the lists...

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#126 of 426 Old 01-29-2010, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Huh. I thought that I just read that GSE was good for bacteria, but not for yeast. I've read too many things this week though.

I think that the test results came with suggested conventional and natural treatments, and I think they test for sensitivity to each treatment as well. I'm guessing that's why he said GSE. I guess I'll see once I get the test results, or after our appt on Tuesday.

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#127 of 426 Old 01-30-2010, 03:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok... have to stop talking about this in the chat thread too, because I'm getting confused on where I've posted stuff.

Stupid question.... is there any reason to think that I might also have an issue with this bacteria? Or DP? Or has it just gotten out of control because of DD's jacked up immune system? And if so, what specifically allowed this bacteria to take over? How do we prevent it from happening again? (obviously, we can take probiotics... but that's not something that I want to do long-term- at least not the pill form anyway.)

So at this point (this may all change after I see the doc on Tuesday and look at the test results... which they never mailed me ), I'm looking at doing the Gastromycin and Pharmax HLC Mindlinx. And continuing calcium. And restricting super-high oxalate foods (like chocolate and blueberries. ) I think that's it for now.

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#128 of 426 Old 01-30-2010, 09:39 AM
 
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In our case, I don't think I have the gut issues DS has. I think what happened for him is he got low in zinc, stopped digesting a lot of foods, and that let a ton of garbage flourish in his gut. I think for him, long term maintenance involves digestive enzymes, supps to try to prevent future deficiencies, daily kefir, and probiotics weekly or so, more often if he's sick, reacting, etc.

So I definitely think it's possible for them to have gut bacteria issues when you don't. But no guarantees . What happens when you eat starches?

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#129 of 426 Old 01-30-2010, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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hmm... I've had a lot of gassiness in the past year or so, but it's not consistent. I noticed it when I was using a lot of coconut milk (especially with coconut milk ice cream), and for a while I suspected buckwheat and/or honey. But then other times I'd eat buckwheat and honey and be fine. So I'm not sure what other variables are going on. But there's definitely something up with my gut too.


So... last night at 2am I got woken up by getting slapped in the eye. HARD. DD was obviously in a lot of pain.. I just don't get why she thinks it's me hurting her and feels the need to fight back. Anyway- she had the worst gas I think she's ever had yesterday, so obviously the potatoes were not a good idea for a week straight. This morning we're having lamb burgers and bone broth for breakfast. I have no idea what else to feed her.

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#130 of 426 Old 01-30-2010, 02:09 PM
 
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I'm sorry, CS . I've woken up getting attacked too, and it's awful.

I hope that your DAN doc has a plan on Tuesday that helps quickly. I have to say, in your shoes, I might be considering the Nystatin (or whatever abx he was talking about), as a way to get more quickly to a place where starches might be possible to eat.

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#131 of 426 Old 01-30-2010, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok- DD is still having really stinky gas- over 24 hours since we ate potatoes. Now I'm wondering if it was the honey bothering her rather than the potatoes (I'm mixing the calcium in honey- the really stinky gas started after we started the calcium/honey mix... sigh.) If so- do I assume that it's feeding the bad guys, or that it's killing them off? There isn't anything in the calcium supp that should be bothering her, but who knows. Is there anything about calcium itself that would shift things in her gut?

Ugh. Tuesday canNOT get here fast enough.

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#132 of 426 Old 01-30-2010, 05:51 PM
 
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Die off often has symptoms get worse before they get better - but it's hard to know if you're actually causing die off or just feeding the wrong things!! Hang in there, just a few more days...

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#133 of 426 Old 01-31-2010, 03:07 AM
 
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It would appear that there's a lot of variation in the oxalate content of breastmilk:
http://mobile.journals.lww.com/jpgn/...&article=00002
if you scroll down and look at the testing results, it ranged from 40 to 160! My mind is boggling over here at the implications of that and things like, say, cavities in a 12mo... Is it time to spin off an oxalate thread? Or just keep it all here?

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#134 of 426 Old 01-31-2010, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It would appear that there's a lot of variation in the oxalate content of breastmilk:
http://mobile.journals.lww.com/jpgn/...&article=00002
if you scroll down and look at the testing results, it ranged from 40 to 160! My mind is boggling over here at the implications of that and things like, say, cavities in a 12mo... Is it time to spin off an oxalate thread? Or just keep it all here?
Interesting stuff. Too much for my brain this morning... but interesting.

Yeah- feel free to start a new thread! We've got all sorts of topics going on in this one, and we'll probably have more on Tuesday.

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#135 of 426 Old 01-31-2010, 08:00 PM
 
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It would appear that there's a lot of variation in the oxalate content of breastmilk:
http://mobile.journals.lww.com/jpgn/...&article=00002
if you scroll down and look at the testing results, it ranged from 40 to 160! My mind is boggling over here at the implications of that and things like, say, cavities in a 12mo... Is it time to spin off an oxalate thread? Or just keep it all here?
Doesn't surprise me at all - DS clearly reacted when I ate high sals, so those definitely passed in breastmilk, basically in proportion to what I ate.

CS, the oxalates fighting bacteria we were talking about upthread - Oxalobacter formigenes. I've been noodling on that one, since there's no probiotic supp avaialble with this strain. It's a commonly occurring soil organism - I'm wondering if soil based organism probiotics (like here), might possibly contain this strain? Or just go eat dirt ... (I know they said most kids colonize this bacteria around 3yo, and I'm wondering how they do it...)

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#136 of 426 Old 01-31-2010, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wait... what? Oxalates fighting bacteria? Did I just completely miss talking about that?

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#137 of 426 Old 01-31-2010, 10:07 PM
 
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Wait... what? Oxalates fighting bacteria? Did I just completely miss talking about that?
it's talked about in the lowoxalate.info site, i think. see here: http://www.lowoxalate.info/research.html

and here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/pmc/articles/PMC124017/

edit: here's the page to the company working on that strain-specific probx: http://www.oxthera.com/products.php doesn't look like it's available yet, though?

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#138 of 426 Old 01-31-2010, 10:13 PM
 
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Wait... what? Oxalates fighting bacteria? Did I just completely miss talking about that?
LMAO - wasn't it you posting about it upthread???? :nana

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#139 of 426 Old 01-31-2010, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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lol- I totally read that wrong (I think- I'm really confusing myself now.) I read your first sentence as meaning that oxalates will fight bacteria, not that there is an oxalate-fighting bacteria (a bacteria that fights oxalates), which is what I now think you mean.

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#140 of 426 Old 01-31-2010, 10:39 PM
 
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lol- I totally read that wrong (I think- I'm really confusing myself now.) I read your first sentence as meaning that oxalates will fight bacteria, not that there is an oxalate-fighting bacteria (a bacteria that fights oxalates), which is what I now think you mean.
Yup ... but after 7 pages, I could be making stuff up instead of remembering it .

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#141 of 426 Old 01-31-2010, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yup ... but after 7 pages, I could be making stuff up instead of remembering it .
No, I definitely remember that part.

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#142 of 426 Old 02-01-2010, 01:20 AM
 
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Um... "Oxalate is known to impair carboxylase enzymes producing symptoms equivalent to biotin or biotinidase deficiency."
http://www.lowoxalate.info/research.html
Must start oxalate thread...

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#143 of 426 Old 02-01-2010, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, the horrible gas is gone... and we're still eating potatoes. So, I guess DD was reacting to the calcium and/or the honey I was mixing it with.

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#144 of 426 Old 02-01-2010, 06:57 PM
 
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Oxalate thread. I think I got *most* of the general stuff from here...

CS, has dd ever had the calcium directly before? Have you ever suspected the honey before? Yay for it not being the potatoes, though!

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#145 of 426 Old 02-01-2010, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oxalate thread. I think I got *most* of the general stuff from here...

CS, has dd ever had the calcium directly before? Have you ever suspected the honey before? Yay for it not being the potatoes, though!
Nope, she's never had the calcium directly. I haven't ever suspected honey before... but she had a tiny bite yesterday (with no calcium) and was a little gassy after nap- couple hours later. So now I just don't know. I might try that liquid cal/mag citrate that I got... although it's got all sorts of questionable ingredients.

Is there any reason that calcium itself would cause issues for her?

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#146 of 426 Old 02-03-2010, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok- here's what we have on the stool test:

  • Bacteria
    • beneficial bacteria (should be between 3+ and 4+)
      • bacteroides fragilis group 2+ (little low?)
      • bifidobacterium spp. 4+
      • escherichia coli 4+
      • lactobacillus spp. 0 - that's bad. no lacto's in there. (will be starting HLC Mindlinx in a few days)
      • enterococcus spp. 4+
    • commensal (inbalanced) flora
      • gamma hemolytic strep 4+
    • dysbiotic flora
      • klebsiella oxytoca 4+ - this is the one we're trying to kill off now with GSE (we're using the Gastromycin supplement... well, we're trying. It tastes like shit and DD won't have anything to do with it, no matter how well I hide it.) The other option is abx, which I can't get my head around, because this bacteria overgrowth is usually caused by abx. But apparently it's a nasty one, and we really need to get rid of it.
      • later in the results they show a graph of natural and prescriptive antibacterials to treat this. Highest sensitivity is shown to GSE, followed by caprylic acid, uva ursi, then silver. Berberine, black walnut, and oregano have no effect on this bacteria. All abx tested (amoxacillin, cafazolin, ceftazadime, cipro, trimeth-sulfa) would work, except ampicillin.
  • Clostridium 2+ - they don't make it really clear what this is supposed to be at, but I'm guessing 0.
  • Yeast: nothing. (This really makes me feel good about listening to my intuition and not jumping on the "everything is yeast related!" bandwagon last year. )
  • Parasites: none, although there were some charcot-Leyden crystals found in one sample, which can be a sign of either "the presence of a parasite or an inflammatory/allergic condition known as eosinophilic gastroenteritis"
    • there were also moderate WBC found in the samples (not sure why that's important in this section...
  • Giardia/cryptosporidium: none
  • Digestion/absorption (elastase, fat stain, muscle fibers, vegetable fibers, carbohydrates): all good, if you can believe it!
  • Inflammation: all bad, not a big surprise
    • lysozyme 968 (range <=600) - signifies IBD
    • lactoferrin 210 (range <7.3) - also signifies IBD
    • white blood cells: moderate (should be none)
    • mucus: positive
  • Immunology
    • secretory IgA 127 (range 51-204)
  • Short Chain Fatty Acids
    • acetate, propionate, butyrate- all within range
    • %valerate 0.4 (range 1-8%)
  • Intestinal health markers
    • red blood cells: few (should be none)
    • pH 6.3 (6-7.8)
    • occult blood: negative

The doc didn't seem too concerned about anything on the OAT (including the oxalates), but wanted to focus on the bacteria stuff for now. We're doing the gastromycin (if I can get it in her) and then supposed to retest for bacteria and inflammation markers in 4-6 weeks. (If we can afford it. sigh.)

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#147 of 426 Old 02-03-2010, 06:26 PM
 
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    • lactobacillus spp. 0 - that's bad. no lacto's in there. (will be starting HLC Mindlinx in a few days)
    • dysbiotic flora
      • klebsiella oxytoca 4+ - this is the one we're trying to kill off now with GSE (we're using the Gastromycin supplement... well, we're trying. It tastes like shit and DD won't have anything to do with it, no matter how well I hide it.) The other option is abx, which I can't get my head around, because this bacteria overgrowth is usually caused by abx. But apparently it's a nasty one, and we really need to get rid of it.
DS has no lactobacillus either. That's why the osteo put DS on Theralac. He said he needs a ton of it, and the regular ones don't have enough. He was also Klebsiella 3+ and Citrobacter 4+. So he said the Citrobacter was what we had to worry about and that's what they did the testing on. He said he didn't want to do abx on him, but that uva-ursi and oregano work for us, so I'm going to try oil of oregano again on him (but he doesn't like it much). He said by increasing the Lactobacillus, it might just crowd the bad bacteria out too.... Not sure if that helps or not. Luckily though, my DS takes capsules. I don't know how I'd get them into him otherwise. He's made a big improvement since being on the Theralac and the enzymes.

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#148 of 426 Old 02-03-2010, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Interesting- I thought they were testing the bacteria's sensitivity to those different agents, not the person's sensitivity. Otherwise why would oregano work for your klebsiella but not for ours? Or maybe the oregano works on the citrobactor, but not the klebsiella?

Yeah- I'm hoping the probiotics will help too. I finally called Bastyr and it turns out you can buy probiotics from their pharmacy without a prescription (I thought you had to have one), and their prices are pretty good... so I'm going to go buy the Mindlinx tomorrow.

At least the probiotics should be easier to get into DD than the Gastromycin. I made the banana, honey, chocolate pudding again today (I didn't put chocolate in it before- and the chocolate REALLY helps cover the taste.) She took one bite, seemed to like it, but then said "medicine" and wouldn't touch it again. damn.

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#149 of 426 Old 02-03-2010, 08:27 PM
 
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I am finding this very confusing. On DD's Genova stool test, she tested 4+ for citrobacter braakii but her dr said he was not concerned about it. The test said it was a potential pathogen. She also tested 4+ for "klebsiella planticola" (which I guess is different than the klebsiella your DD was tested for?), and the test says it is a non-pathogen. Why do they even test for non-pathogens?

ETA: CS - I'm so happy you are getting some answers!
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#150 of 426 Old 02-03-2010, 08:57 PM
 
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Interesting- I thought they were testing the bacteria's sensitivity to those different agents, not the person's sensitivity. Otherwise why would oregano work for your klebsiella but not for ours? Or maybe the oregano works on the citrobactor, but not the klebsiella?
We were hi in citrobacter also. The natural abx that were rated highest were uva ursi & plant tannins. OoO was next & in the mod. range.

DD did 2 weeks on uva ursi and there was no change in her stool. We haven't tried anything else yet.



Yeah- I'm hoping the probiotics will help too. I finally called Bastyr and it turns out you can buy probiotics from their pharmacy without a prescription (I thought you had to have one), and their prices are pretty good... so I'm going to go buy the Mindlinx tomorrow.

At least the probiotics should be easier to get into DD than the Gastromycin. I made the banana, honey, chocolate pudding again today (I didn't put chocolate in it before- and the chocolate REALLY helps cover the taste.) She took one bite, seemed to like it, but then said "medicine" and wouldn't touch it again. damn.
Sucks about the pudding. These kids are smart.

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