What to do- not tolerating water kefir!!! - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 30 Old 01-21-2010, 11:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm so upset.....my DS had a reaction to some store bought probiotics a while back because it was cultured in dairy and soy. So, I decided to start brewing my own water kefir for him....he needs to be on probiotics so badly, but it appears that he is possibly having a reaction to the water kefir!!! I even brewed it with his only safe sugar that we have (maple syrup). i started with just 1/2 a tsp a day and have gradually worked up to 1-2 tsp a day.

His typical reactions are delayed IgG reactions (no known IgE) and begin with a rash around mouth, and with continued exposure reflux, vomiting and sometimes bad diaper rash. He started with just a few tiny spots around his mouth, and it has progressively gotten worse. And to top it off, now he's on antibiotics again for strep throat, so even more so he needs the probiotics!! I don't know what else to do!! Should I keep giving it to him and see what happens?

How else can I get probiotics into him?? Is there a possibility that he has a problem with the lacto- probiotics and if so, are there other types that I can get? I'm so confused!!!

Thanks,
Valerie
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#2 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 10:21 AM
 
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I have no solution, unfortunately. I just wanted to offer my sympathy.
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#3 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 11:36 AM
 
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Which came first the vomiting, rash or antibiotics? I'm more inclined to think it might be the antibiotics causing the issue.


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#4 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 12:13 PM
 
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Have you read the book Wild Fermentation? You can culture most vegetables in salt water. Can he eat radishes, cucumbers, or cabbage? Those are all very easy to ferment. Chop the veggies, put in a glass quart jar, and use about 1T of sea salt. Cover with filtered water and put in a cabinet for a day or two. Then move to the fridge. After about 2 weeks, they will be ready to eat.
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#5 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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He just has a rash on his face that has been progressively getting worse over teh last week as we have increased the amount of water kefir. The antibiotics he just started last night for strep throat. No excess gas, diarrhea or anything like that from the kefir though.

I have fermented my own green beans (one of his safe foods) and after giving him maybe 1/2" of a bean a couple days in a row he broke out in a diaper rash that looked like he had been burned, and his skin even peeled off!! There's a slight chance it was from something else, but I really think it was from the LF green beans. I haven't been brave enough to retry it again to see if that was it or not though.
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#6 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 04:23 PM
 
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I thought there was someone else on here that their kid reacted to all the ferments too....

Can you do coconut, as in coconut milk yogurt?

Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
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#7 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 04:24 PM
 
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Perhaps, cut back on the water kefir to even smaller amounts. I'd focus on stomach acid to make nutrient absorption more effective: zinc, cabbage, sauerkraut juice.

Also vit C to help with neutralizing/excreting toxins. Are you doing magnesium or Epsom salt baths? These also help with detox pathways. Milk thistle also helps the liver to detox more effectively.

If there are mercury issues, be sure to get adequate selenium.


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#8 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 05:47 PM
 
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My DS was never helped by ferments. He couldn't tolerate the food chemicals they contained: salicylates and amines. He tolerates cabbage just fine. Sauerkraut, no way. Nothing helped as much as probiotics, and especially a mulitiple strain product that includes bifidobacteria.

He's gotten the bullseye anus rash and mouth rash from salicylates (such as tomato, citrus, berries, cherries, avocado, peaches) too.
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#9 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 05:57 PM
 
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My DS was never helped by ferments. He couldn't tolerate the food chemicals they contained: salicylates and amines. He tolerates cabbage just fine. Sauerkraut, no way. Nothing helped as much as probiotics, and especially a mulitiple strain product that includes bifidobacteria.

He's gotten the bullseye anus rash and mouth rash from salicylates (such as tomato, citrus, berries, cherries, avocado, peaches) too.
Many mamas have had benefits from magnesium and molybdenum for salicylate issues. And I believe B6 and B12 and folate for amines???

I believe that stomach acid is a huge key to nutrient absorption and that requires zinc, mag, B6, B12. So, perhaps, it is less the food which causes the reaction, than the nutrients which are necessary to process the byproducts of the food.


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#10 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 06:04 PM
 
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I think it was bluebirdmama (is that her name?) whose children react to anything fermented.

Children deserve the respect of puzzling it out.
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#11 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 07:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Many mamas have had benefits from magnesium and molybdenum for salicylate issues. And I believe B6 and B12 and folate for amines???

I believe that stomach acid is a huge key to nutrient absorption and that requires zinc, mag, B6, B12. So, perhaps, it is less the food which causes the reaction, than the nutrients which are necessary to process the byproducts of the food.


Pat
Yes, yes and yes! And MSM sulfur.

However, I have found that the only possible way to stop reactions while we are tanking him up with nutrients was to eliminate first. We are definitely seeing results but we can't go whole hog with the ferments just yet.
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#12 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 07:08 PM
 
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Yes, yes and yes! And MSM sulfur.
MSM for child, not for mamas with mercury in their mouth, right?


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#13 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 07:12 PM
 
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DS is sals sensitive too - for him, the problem with ferments is the histamines. Methyl b12 helps shut that down, but the most important is 2g of C a day (vitamin C lowers blood histamine levels). That said, I don't think he would tolerate huge amounts of fermented veggies either.

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#14 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 08:28 PM
 
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MSM for child, not for mamas with mercury in their mouth, right?


Pat
What impact does it have on mercury fillings?
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#15 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 08:30 PM
 
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I use msm and have mercury. I couldn't do it early on (pendulum had a strong no), I can now. I bought it when I began thread stalking Panser a year ago and knew that she used it. Of course, Panser has all of her detox issues covered, so she is a special case. I do think that it is good for us though.

Children deserve the respect of puzzling it out.
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#16 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 08:41 PM
 
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My understanding is that MSM moves mercury around, but does not clear it out of circulation.


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#17 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 10:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow...thank you so much for all of the responses!! I guess I need to look more into supplements for him. They sort of scare me though...I'm a bit afraid of over dosing him on stuff. He's on a multivitamin that covers 100% of his vitamin and mineral needs (RDA). But, I do understand that he could still be deficient in some of them. It sounds like I really need to add zinc, methyl B12 and C....what's the best way to go about doing that???

I do think stomach acid could definitely play a part in this as well....he's been on zantac since he was about 2 months old (and other reflux meds off and on). I'm in the process of decreasing the amount of zantac he gets now and hope to completely wean him off of it.

Here's a list of what he is IgG allergic to via patch testing and elimination diet: dairy,soy, wheat, gluten, corn, any animal meat, eggs, sweet potatoes, coconut, rice, legumes, and possibly broccoli and cauliflower. The only thing he's eating right now is white potatoes, zucchini, yellow squash, green beans and pears. he can occasionally have oats and kale in small amounts.

Thanks!!
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#18 of 30 Old 01-22-2010, 11:02 PM
 
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The RDA for most vitamins is a joke for a kid with immune/digestive/intolerance challenges.

Zantac lowers stomach acid, which means nothing digests well, so that's definitely one possible issue. You may have better luck weaning him off if you supp zinc at the same time.

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#19 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, his rash cleared up almost overnight after 2 doses of antibiotics..... It appears that the rash may have been in part due to his strep infection !! So, I'm going to keep giving him the water kefir and see what happens!! Maybe he will do okay with it afterall....that would be a God send!

Ok, so I'm a little overwhelmed about supplements, but am trying my best to figure all of this out so bare with me!! I definitely think we need to add them.

So, how do I know how much to give him?? He's 17 months old and weighs approx. 26 pounds. Should I have a blood test done to check all of these levels prior to starting them so I know if he's really deficient in them?

I'm the most interested in the Vit. C, methyl B12 and zinc right now as I do think those are the core of his problems. someone said 3g of Vit. C, that seems like a TON for a baby. Is that correct??

Where can I find these three things in hypoallergenic forms to give him?
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#20 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 03:33 PM
 
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Most vitamin supplements are the wrong form: chemical forms of the vitamins and minerals which are not at all well absorbed too. Such as the palmitate form of vitamin A and zinc oxide and cynocobalamin form of B12... they are useless and in some cases can be toxic themselves.

Twinlab Allergy C is from sago palm not corn. I think vitamin C loading is a gram for every 10 lbs. I would start very low and work up.

Pure Advantage Methyl B12 spray is pretty allergy free but has potassium sorbate and I'm still not sure if that is a chemical preservative or not.

Bluebonnet Chelated Zinc is allergy free but would be hard to give to such a youngun. It can cause nausea.

Lowered stomach acid can lead to allergies b/c the food proteins are then not fully digested.
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#21 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 03:35 PM
 
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My understanding is that MSM moves mercury around, but does not clear it out of circulation.


Pat
Hmmm, I should check on this, any references? I took it pretty high when I was flaring from interstitial cystitis and didn't notice any Hg symptoms but of course that depends on the individual I would imagine...
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#22 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 03:44 PM
 
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So, how do I know how much to give him?? He's 17 months old and weighs approx. 26 pounds. Should I have a blood test done to check all of these levels prior to starting them so I know if he's really deficient in them?

Possibly, standard blood tests for zinc (and corresponding copper) and vitamin A and D have been very helpful for us. Keep in mind though, that a "normal" blood level doesn't necessarily mean you are okay. For example, in calcium and magnesium, the body keeps the blood levels stable at all costs... one could still be severely deficient in calcium, losing bone etc. and the blood levels stay fine. The body will take from the teeth and bone to compensate. Which is why some people do red blood cell testing which is considered more accurate but less well known and expensive.

Also lab testing ranges are not necessarily correct with the best range for optimal health. In the case of vitamin D, a widely used lab has been found to skew low (Quest) according to The Vitamin D Council. And the range given starting at 32-100 for normal is NOT correct, it should be high range starting at 50 and above. So getting a Quest number for 32 would read normal to your doctor but would in fact be very deficient.

I'm sorry this is confusing and overwhelming right now, I wasn't sure if I should post or not for that reason! For us, it was to go one step further and learn about a nutrient dense diet and correcting vitamin/mineral deficiencies with real food and whole food or effective supplements.
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#23 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 05:56 PM
 
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Hmmm, I should check on this, any references? I took it pretty high when I was flaring from interstitial cystitis and didn't notice any Hg symptoms but of course that depends on the individual I would imagine...
I did some hunting yesterday before posting. I found references to Cutler and some ambiguity and thus some cautions. Here are a few links:
Quote:
One of the biggest misconceptions about mercury detox is that substances like glutathione, cilantro, chlorella, and MSM are helpful. These are harmful, not helpful! They do affect mercury but only to stir it up. DMPS, DMSA, and alpha lipoic acid are the better choices
<even here, I believe they are talking about with NO fillings present>
http://lymebook.com/blog/treatments/...sa-ala-lipoic/

Quote:
MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane)Mobilization AND excretion are required for mercury detoxification. Consuming foods high in sulfur such as garlic, onions, beans, and eggs or supplemental sulfur in the form of MSM can help move mercury around but it is only bound loosely and caution is advised. There have been reported cases of reversible cataract development from individuals mobilizing mercury without excreting it. Consult a qualified doctor for a detoxification protocol appropriate for you.
http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C586629.html

Amalgam Illness, page 159, 196, 199.

Quote:
When mercury poisoning is present, Andy Cutler (author of Amalgam Illness: Diagnosis and Treatment) suggests that MSM may do more harm than good. It will move too much mercury around without escorting it out of the body. Instead of using MSM, he suggests that sulfates are a more appropriate source of sulfur when mercury poisoning is present.
http://www.child-autism-parent-cafe....treatment.html

Quote:
Andy Cutler, PhD, who wrote a very detailed book on the chemistry of amalgam illness, is adamant that whey, cysteine, MSM, and agents other than true chelators are harmful to the mercury poisoned.
http://www.healthyawareness.com/arti...earn-more.aspx


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#24 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 08:30 PM
 
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Well thank you, I had been searching around too and didn't see his references. Geez, I have his book, how could I have missed that!?

Whey too? OMG, could the whey protein drinks I've been drinking lately cause the pins and needles in my hands I just posted about in another thread?? Crappy, crap, crap, crap.
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#25 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 08:37 PM
 
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Hmmm, I should check on this, any references? I took it pretty high when I was flaring from interstitial cystitis and didn't notice any Hg symptoms but of course that depends on the individual I would imagine...
I think part of his caution comes from recognizing the subset of people who need low sulfur diets. People who have increased symptoms from stuff like eggs and onions would have real issues with MSM, but it seems to be between 1/3 and 1/2 of people who fall into this category. For the people who do well on high sulfur diets, I'm not sure MSM would be a problem, with reasonable dosages.

Jane, I'd assume by now you'd know if you needed a low sulfur diet, wouldn't you? You eat a lot of sulfur-y foods, with all the eggs and dairy.

eta: when I've read Cutler's stuff on sulfur, I wouldn't have summarized that he's adamantly against whey. As a chelator, of course, cause it's not one, but I read his opinion/reasons as caution, figure out which category _you_ fall into. Though he is adamantly opposed to chlorella and cilantro.
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#26 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 09:06 PM
 
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Yeah I have been eating eggs and raw milk (which is higher in sulfur than pasteurized) pretty much every day for like 4 years!

Except lately I've been having eye symptoms too and I thought I had gotten pink eye from a new contact lens solution. The numbness has gotten better since I've been taking SA for past couple days. Stopping the whey and seeing how that goes. Thank you for the support, I'm still a little freaked out right now!

OP, Sorry for hijacking this thread!
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#27 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 09:25 PM
 
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Don't have the exact quotes here, but from what I saw, the MSM was different than food sources of sulfur. Not sure how/why, but the food sources were less of an issue, it seemed. (not just according to Pat's "food fetish" when reading, )

Here is an index of Cutler's post re: sulfur issues. http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/AN...EX.html#sulfur

Quote:
Any mercury chelation benefits from MSM?
No. It stirs the mercury up and increases damage, but doesn't accelerate
excretion.

Andy Cutler
http://onibasu.com/archives/am/930.html

Apparently, the sulfate form of Epsom salts is more usable to most people for detoxifcation, as the circulating single-sulfur molecule in foods can be diverted away from binding with mercury to other bodily needs. There was some discussion that the chelators (ALA, DMSA and DMPS) are more effective at bonding with mercury, due to two sulfur molecules being available. But these can't be used with mercury present in the mouth.

This post indicates "Mercury is excreted from the liver in bile while bound to glutathione."
http://onibasu.com/archives/am/2470.html

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#28 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 09:30 PM
 
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Just found this article about Mercury Detox And Whey. haven't read it yet.

Mercury and Whey is discussed on the WAPF site also.


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#29 of 30 Old 01-23-2010, 09:58 PM
 
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I just want to say that while I appreciate the way the WAPF has made Price's name more well-known, and they've talked about fat soluble vitamins and minerals and such, I've not been impressed with their discussions of mercury or detoxification in general. Simple things like cholesterol, yes, it's good, and it's bad when it's in-the-basement low, but eating dietary cholesterol does not raise cholesterol in most people, the intoxification process is more complex than simply consume cholesterol and you'll be okay.
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#30 of 30 Old 01-24-2010, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Jane,
I truly appreciate all the information on the supplements and such. I'm overwhelmed in a good way, not a bad way. I've been searching for answers on how to help my son for the last year and no one could give me answers other than to just avoid the foods he's allergic to. Well, when he reacts to EVERYTHING something's gotta give and we have to find a solution to the root of the problem!!

He does seem to be doing okay on the water kefir now....rash is completely gone and we're still giving it to him. So YEAH!!! That's a HUGE accomplishment for us. I also gave him beets for the first time yesterday and no problems with it so far either. And so my surprise, they didn't turn his pee pink!! However, mine did even after eating just a couple slices of them!! What does that mean??? I read online that it could mean low stomach acid or low iron....is there something else too?? I thought I remembered reading somewhere here about some other mineral.
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