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#1 of 187 Old 06-28-2010, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The pancreas is responsible for making most of the enzymes that digest our food. The proteases need to be activated by good stomach acid and stomach enzymes, and the lipases need enough bile to emulsify the fat. Disaccharidases need a not-inflamed gut.

When you eat protein and fat, as they leave the stomach, CCK is released. CCK is a hormone that tells the pancreas to squirt out it's enzymes. It also tells the pancreas to grow, and get healthier. Which is interesting, because the pancreas is also responsible for hormones like insulin, so it's intimately connected with blood sugar regulation. It's also a major signal to tell you that you're full after a meal.

We've been talking about taking digestive enzymes. How plant-based enzymes (like digest gold) *should*be more effective than pancreatic enzymes, but many of us are seeing very different responses to the two. I started a low dose of pancreatin with each meal, and got major die off. Now I'm up to half the dose of yasko's enzymes (I'm taking 2 caps twin labs super enzymes per meal) and still seeing die off when I increase. The theory is that the pancreatin actually changes the pH of the small intestine somehow. There are also pancreas glandulars that seem to be a gentle way of doing the same thing.

The big difference between yasko's enzymes and twin lab's is that yasko's has pine nut oil powder. Certain species of pine nuts (Siberian and Korean) are known to increase circulating CCK.

So does that mean eating the right pine nuts will support your pancreas, improve your enzyme production and blood sugar regulation, improve your gut pH, and potentially cause major die off and dumping of metals?

Back to the pancreas, it's got a ton of glutamate receptors and uses a lot of vitamin K. So it seems keeping glutamate and GABA (and calcium and b12) in balance and being good on the fat soluble vitamins (A/D/K) would also be good support.

Finally, a couple of the proteases that the pancreas makes are 'serine' proteases, meaning they have the amino acid serine at the active site. Serine in the body mostly comes from glycine in the diet. The conversion uses b6 and folate. Glycine is a major component in connective tissue - so gelatin. Glycine is also one of the big detox pathways (amino acid conjugation) and is a component of another (glutathione).

So this is looking totally doable now from a whole foods perspective:
Sweetbreads are the thymus gland (longer/skinnier) and the pancreas (more oval). They're actually mild and good - prized in some places. I'm seeing the same sorts of die off symptoms from eating sweetbreads as from increasing my enzymes. http://sierrafarmslamb.blogspot.com/...%20Sweetbreads
Pine nuts should increase CCK, so encourage pancreatic health, and promote the release of enzymes.
Greens for K1, butterfat, egg yolks, roe for K2.
Gelatin and slow cooked meat on the bone for glycine to be converted to serine.

Which are all totally foods I can easily get into dd.

Anyone want to experiment with me, or help find some Siberian or Korean pine nuts?

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#2 of 187 Old 06-28-2010, 04:03 PM
 
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Love the idea of eating lots of pine nuts - but for DS, I'm not sure it would work, since nuts are still something he doesn't digest all that well. (nut chunks come out whole, and I'm not convinced nut powder even would do any better). So maybe you have to get your digestion to a decent place for this to work first?

Yasko puts pine nut oil powder in several of her supps, including the pancreatic support one, but it's not in the enzymes. She used to sell CCK as a separate supp, but it's not available any more - however, quite a few parents said it was the single best supp they'd ever used for their kids, so I think it can be a really key piece.

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#3 of 187 Old 06-28-2010, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oops. That's what I get for posting from memory and not cross checking

I wonder about the pine nuts, though. I think we're coming from very different places - you have lots of motivation to get things working for your ds asap, and he swallows pills. Since the CCK should improve digestion all by itself, it seems like if you're getting even a little bit out of the pine nuts, it could set you on a slow and steady course to recovery. With my dd, right now were in a holding pattern, focusing more on family dynamics, reducing stress and empowering her. And I think her digestion is decent. Then again, I thought mine was decent, too and look at me now. Anyway, the super slow route could be just the ticket for her. I wonder if it would also help with managing die off?

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#4 of 187 Old 07-11-2010, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I got my pine nut oil a couple days ago. Dosage is 1Tbsp, to be taken 30 min before the largest meal of the day, for weight loss. Or it can be spread out. That's to raise cck levels at the end of the meal so you feel full and don't eat so much. Since I'm more interested in the pancreas-stimulating properties of the cck, and not interested in losing weight, I'm just doing it with food rather than before.

The last two nights, I took 1tsp at the start of dinner. Yesterday afternoon, ds was starting to get spit up-ey. This morning, I'm starting to feel fried. The only other explanation is lots of carbs yesterday, but that shouldn't leave me feeling quite like this. Which means the pine nut oil is seriously powerful stuff. Or that I'm just that broken. Or both.

It tastes really mild, vaguely like pine nuts. Next up is to get some into dd. I have hope that it'll be rocky, but anything I can get into her at any point will push her down the path, and that it won't have to be regular dosing.

So ds is going to be miserable as my enzymes ramp up and then we'll all come out of the fog and be able to eat food again?

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#5 of 187 Old 07-11-2010, 05:00 PM
 
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Wow, cool to know it works that well! You're right, I have a crapload of stuff to get into DS and need faster results, but I think you've found a great option for some people. FWIW, the CCK supp that Yasko used to supply (not available any more), was marketed for weight loss, but most ASD kids responded to it by gaining weight (I think because it improved digestion).

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#6 of 187 Old 07-11-2010, 07:47 PM
 
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Pat, thank you, Thank you, THANK YOU! Your post just solved my mystery. I started new digestive enzymes (Energique Digestizyme Plus) earlier this week and was fine for the first day. Second day and since? I feel like garbage. Joints swollen and terribly achy... it is the pancreatin in them I bet! I had been taking Digest Gold (so no pancreatin) for a long time, but my doctor wanted me to swap enzymes as a result of a Zyto scan.

Point me in the direction of pinenuts or pinenut oil and I'll experiment with you!

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#7 of 187 Old 07-11-2010, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by stephienoodle View Post
Pat, thank you, Thank you, THANK YOU! Your post just solved my mystery. I started new digestive enzymes (Energique Digestizyme Plus) earlier this week and was fine for the first day. Second day and since? I feel like garbage. Joints swollen and terribly achy... it is the pancreatin in them I bet! I had been taking Digest Gold (so no pancreatin) for a long time, but my doctor wanted me to swap enzymes as a result of a Zyto scan.

Point me in the direction of pinenuts or pinenut oil and I'll experiment with you!
I got mine from here:
http://www.siberiantigernaturals.com/orderproducts.htm
You can also get korean pine nut oil capsules, but the few i looked at had soy.

From what I've read, 'product of china' pine nuts tend to be smuggled siberian and/or korean nuts, but have usually sat on docks for a while and gone rancid. And might leave a bitter taste in your mouth.

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#8 of 187 Old 07-13-2010, 01:42 PM
 
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Thanks, Pat! I've got it ordered and it is on the way. I'll report back after we try it.

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#9 of 187 Old 07-13-2010, 04:15 PM
 
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Thanks, Pat!
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#10 of 187 Old 07-13-2010, 04:49 PM
 
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I actually just received the yasko special enzymes for DS and myself yesterday. I have been taking plant based enzymes and DS has been on nothing. I know I need to start very slowly. Any sugggestions? Like a tiny sprinkle for him and maybe 1 or a half for me?

Also when I start should I just do it with 1 meal to see how it goes or do a sprinkle with all 3 meals? DS is in daycare so I'm going to have to ask/show the daycare lady how much to mix in his food with his b-fast and lunch. I was also thinking perhaps I should try the plant enzymes with DS first.

What differences have people seen when switching from plant to yasko's (or similar) enzymes??

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#11 of 187 Old 07-13-2010, 09:45 PM
 
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Shannon.
Ooops, sorry Shannon! That's what I get for not hanging out in the allergy forums enough these days. I forget who is who!

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#12 of 187 Old 07-13-2010, 10:17 PM
 
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I actually just received the yasko special enzymes for DS and myself yesterday. I have been taking plant based enzymes and DS has been on nothing. I know I need to start very slowly. Any sugggestions? Like a tiny sprinkle for him and maybe 1 or a half for me?

Also when I start should I just do it with 1 meal to see how it goes or do a sprinkle with all 3 meals? DS is in daycare so I'm going to have to ask/show the daycare lady how much to mix in his food with his b-fast and lunch. I was also thinking perhaps I should try the plant enzymes with DS first.

What differences have people seen when switching from plant to yasko's (or similar) enzymes??
Sprinkle for both of you. Try breakfast the first day (start on a weekend). If that doesn't cause any issues, do all 3 meals (sprinkles) the next day. Then work slowly up from sprinkles.

We were on plant enzymes before, and they helped, but not nearly as much as the digestive enzymes. (We got BIG die off reactions and then much better digestion following the switch, and we were on high quality, strong plant enzymes). However, apparently the Yasko ones don't taste very good, so maybe try them, and if your DS won't eat them, then you could try the plant ones, which don't really taste.

For daycare, I'd mix a bit in with a spoonful of food, rather than sprinkling it on all his food (that way if he doesn't eat all his food, you know he got the enzyme).

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#13 of 187 Old 07-13-2010, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ooops, sorry Shannon! That's what I get for not hanging out in the allergy forums enough these days. I forget who is who!
No worries, I get confused by people's real names too
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I actually just received the yasko special enzymes for DS and myself yesterday. I have been taking plant based enzymes and DS has been on nothing. I know I need to start very slowly. Any sugggestions? Like a tiny sprinkle for him and maybe 1 or a half for me?
I'm trying to figure that one out for us, too. I'm wondering if I do dd first, then she'd be less likely to hang on to the stuff I dump to her? And maybe if she's mostly detoxed, it'd be a little less crazy when I start stirring my stuff up again? Am I kidding myself?

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#14 of 187 Old 07-14-2010, 01:44 AM
 
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Apologies in advance if my questions/comments/musings are weird, I am fall-over tired. Should be in bed.

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The pancreas is responsible for making most of the enzymes that digest our food. The proteases need to be activated by good stomach acid and stomach enzymes, and the lipases need enough bile to emulsify the fat. Disaccharidases need a not-inflamed gut.

When you eat protein and fat, as they leave the stomach, CCK is released. CCK is a hormone that tells the pancreas to squirt out it's enzymes. It also tells the pancreas to grow, and get healthier. Which is interesting, because the pancreas is also responsible for hormones like insulin, so it's intimately connected with blood sugar regulation. It's also a major signal to tell you that you're full after a meal.
So does taking pancreating enzymes help with blood sugar regulation, d'ya think? And does it increase carb tolerance (which I guess would mostly be related to blood sugar regulation)? ... Seems like the kids are tolerating carbs for breakfast better than before.

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We've been talking about taking digestive enzymes. How plant-based enzymes (like digest gold) *should*be more effective than pancreatic enzymes, but many of us are seeing very different responses to the two. I started a low dose of pancreatin with each meal, and got major die off. Now I'm up to half the dose of yasko's enzymes (I'm taking 2 caps twin labs super enzymes per meal) and still seeing die off when I increase. The theory is that the pancreatin actually changes the pH of the small intestine somehow. There are also pancreas glandulars that seem to be a gentle way of doing the same thing.
I really wonder, do most people react to pancreatic enzymes more than plant-based enzymes? I want to get back home and see how DH feels, whether he's noticed any additional good things from Yasko's enzymes. Should check the price of the Twin Labs enzymes too, can you link where you buy them?

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Back to the pancreas, it's got a ton of glutamate receptors and uses a lot of vitamin K. So it seems keeping glutamate and GABA (and calcium and b12) in balance and being good on the fat soluble vitamins (A/D/K) would also be good support.

Finally, a couple of the proteases that the pancreas makes are 'serine' proteases, meaning they have the amino acid serine at the active site. Serine in the body mostly comes from glycine in the diet. The conversion uses b6 and folate. Glycine is a major component in connective tissue - so gelatin. Glycine is also one of the big detox pathways (amino acid conjugation) and is a component of another (glutathione).
Somehow that should be important for us. Given my reaction to supplemental glycine, and assuming the kids are in a similar boat, then everything glycine and serine-related should be weird for us. Or maybe it's just one of several causes of digestive weirdness among people with detoxification issues?

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So this is looking totally doable now from a whole foods perspective:
Sweetbreads are the thymus gland (longer/skinnier) and the pancreas (more oval). They're actually mild and good - prized in some places. I'm seeing the same sorts of die off symptoms from eating sweetbreads as from increasing my enzymes. http://sierrafarmslamb.blogspot.com/...%20Sweetbreads
Good to know they're palatable, I have not done a great job lately adding in really healthy foods like that. I feel like I've been bopping between several goals for what we should be eating, and I'm ending up not doing a great job on any of them.

Thx for the discussion ladies! It helps.
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#15 of 187 Old 07-14-2010, 02:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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So does taking pancreating enzymes help with blood sugar regulation, d'ya think? And does it increase carb tolerance (which I guess would mostly be related to blood sugar regulation)? ... Seems like the kids are tolerating carbs for breakfast better than before.
I can't say I've noticed anything amazing, carb-wise. Ds's face is still breaking out a bunch, which seems to be my too many carbs/not enough protein meter. . Then again, I'm still pretty sensitive to the enzymes, so this is likely a HUGE piece for me. Can't wait to see my pee test results!

Quote:
I really wonder, do most people react to pancreatic enzymes more than plant-based enzymes? I want to get back home and see how DH feels, whether he's noticed any additional good things from Yasko's enzymes. Should check the price of the Twin Labs enzymes too, can you link where you buy them?

Huh, looks like yasko's might be the better deal. I didn't do a big comparison cause it's too complicated with the different pancreatin concentrations and such.
http://www.iherb.com/Twinlab-Super-E...ules/2434?at=0


Somehow that should be important for us. Given my reaction to supplemental glycine, and assuming the kids are in a similar boat, then everything glycine and serine-related should be weird for us. Or maybe it's just one of several causes of digestive weirdness among people with detoxification issues?
was reading on sulfur stories, apparently there's a connection between high oxalates and poor glycination (as a detox pathway). It's all related, isn't it?
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Good to know they're palatable, I have not done a great job lately adding in really healthy foods like that. I feel like I've been bopping between several goals for what we should be eating, and I'm ending up not doing a great job on any of them.

Thx for the discussion ladies! It helps.
I totally hear you on bouncing between goals and not getting anything done well. I keep thinking, if I could just sit down and think it all out...

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#16 of 187 Old 07-14-2010, 10:30 AM
 
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Can't wait to see my pee test results!
Oooh, I'm glad you mentioned pee testing. I'd have totally not thought to make the connection with the new enzymes. I've got beets to cook tonight. I wonder if I'll pass? I didn't pass with the plant enzymes...

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#17 of 187 Old 07-14-2010, 11:09 AM
 
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I totally hear you on bouncing between goals and not getting anything done well. I keep thinking, if I could just sit down and think it all out...
Me too...except whenever I even attempt to do just this, I confuse myself MORE

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#18 of 187 Old 07-14-2010, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oooh, I'm glad you mentioned pee testing. I'd have totally not thought to make the connection with the new enzymes. I've got beets to cook tonight. I wonder if I'll pass? I didn't pass with the plant enzymes...
... passing means nothing ...
I usually pass the beet test, but obviously have GI issues and was still low on zinc, too.

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#19 of 187 Old 07-17-2010, 11:34 PM
 
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Well, a pass would definitely be something different for me. I pee fuchsia everytime that I eat beets ... and according to the hair test that I did last summer, I'm high in zinc.

My pine nut oil arrived in the mail today. I'm going to start it sometime on Wednesday. DH is heading out of town for work tomorrow and comes back Wednesday evening. I don't dare start it without parenting backup in case I have terrible die off symptoms. If *I* do ok with it and it seems to improve things for me after a couple of weeks, I'll probably try it with DS as well.

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#20 of 187 Old 07-18-2010, 12:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Think the zinc sulfate might be a more reliable indicator of zinc status than a hair test.

I started up the pine nut oil again. When I did a teaspoon with dinner two nights in a row (in addition to my enzymes), I got die off and got scared. This time, I'm getting smarter. Yesterday, I *replaced* one of the two enzyme caps with 1/2 tsp PNO (I'm ready for a pine nut oil abbreviation). No symptoms this morning, so today I've upped it to more like 3/4 tsp in place of one cap of enzymes (one of these caps is about 1/2 a yasko cap, I think). Massive spit up from ds this afternoon. Which means it's working

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#21 of 187 Old 07-18-2010, 10:30 AM
 
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Hmm... I'm only taking one tablet of enzymes per meal at the moment. Maybe I'll skip taking the enzymes for a snack during the day and try the PNO with that instead and see how it goes. I'm still going to hold off taking any until DH is heading home. The die off that I had from taking the new enzymes with pancreatin was incapacitating for 2-3 days and I'm just getting back to "normal" a week later. I'm definitely nervous about the PNO, but also excited that it might make a real difference.

Maybe I should get some zinc sulfate to see how I do with it. I did think that it was odd that my hair tested really high in zinc, but DS (who was almost exclusively nursing at the time) tested really low. We've been supplementing him with zinc via lotion, but haven't done anything for me.

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#22 of 187 Old 07-18-2010, 07:06 PM
 
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Think the zinc sulfate might be a more reliable indicator of zinc status than a hair test.

I started up the pine nut oil again. When I did a teaspoon with dinner two nights in a row (in addition to my enzymes), I got die off and got scared. This time, I'm getting smarter. Yesterday, I *replaced* one of the two enzyme caps with 1/2 tsp PNO (I'm ready for a pine nut oil abbreviation). No symptoms this morning, so today I've upped it to more like 3/4 tsp in place of one cap of enzymes (one of these caps is about 1/2 a yasko cap, I think). Massive spit up from ds this afternoon. Which means it's working
Hair test has been extremely reliable for DS for zinc, fwiw. And LOL - only here can we be excited about puking babies

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Maybe I should get some zinc sulfate to see how I do with it. I did think that it was odd that my hair tested really high in zinc, but DS (who was almost exclusively nursing at the time) tested really low. We've been supplementing him with zinc via lotion, but haven't done anything for me.
High zinc on hair test often means functional zinc deficiency, oddly enough (your body isn't using zinc properly so dumps it into your hair instead, called zinc "wasting" - my son did this with mag for a while). Cutler recommends zinc supps for both low and high hair zinc. If your son is low zinc, I'd try supping you as well and see what happens.

Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win. ~Jonathan Kozel
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#23 of 187 Old 07-18-2010, 07:24 PM
 
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We've been supplementing him with zinc via lotion, but haven't done anything for me.
Please elaborate. I am hoping to supp some zinc to my 13 mo old (to improve stomach acid) but don't know how I should go about it. Although if he tested deficient then maybe the zinc via lotion really isn't efficient, is it?
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#24 of 187 Old 07-19-2010, 02:33 AM
 
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This is very interesting, but my knowledge meter is in very low digits, so would you please elaborate ?

1. Why baby spitting up is a good sign? I always took it as food does not get digested properly, a sign of allergy/intolerance.

2. Are you saying that PNO works synergistically with the enzymes or that it can replace the enzymes? My sister had very bad reflux during a stressful period in her life (a lot of heartburn and stomach pains, they scoped her twice thinking she may even have ulcers, but nothing). I found somewhere on the internet that PNO alleviates this, so she bought some, this was the *only* thing that worked for her (none of the acid reflux medication worked). In time though, she had to increase the dose of PNO to a couple of tablespoons, then after a couple of months I think this stopped working as well. Luckily, when the stress was over the digestive problems stopped as well. This makes me think if all the digestive issues have some underlying emotional issues (I think there was a thread about this ...)

3. I am starting to better appreciate the complexity of the digestive process and thinking that there may be thousands of substances involved in this (I may have 100 on my kitchen counters ). How can I find my way out of this huge puzzle while also trying to spend time with the kids, have a job, and I don't know, live? Sorry, I feel bad about complaining when I know that I spend a fraction of the time that you spend on doing this research; most of the things I learned, I ``stole" from you, ladies, who did not get discouraged by the cloudy waters and delved right into them.

Mom to DS (04) , DD ( 07) , DS ( 09)
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#25 of 187 Old 07-19-2010, 03:02 AM
 
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Quick question:

It's not wise to take pancreatin in (early) pregnancy when there is detox/die off. I understand this. But, I still need help with digestion (still seeing undigested foods in stool. Now that I'm pregnant I'm seriously bloated and hope an enzyme would help. So I ordered plant-based enzymes, but when it got here I realize it has the "vegetal analog of pancreatin" in it. Do we know how that works compared to actual pancreatin? i.e. would i have to worry about detox/die off like I would the pancreatin?

Also, what do people know about ox bile while preggo?

Thanks ladies!

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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#26 of 187 Old 07-19-2010, 03:04 AM
 
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Now that I'm pregnant I'm seriously bloated
omg- right there with you. Would love some suggestions too!

Mom to DD1 (10/07) and DD2 (3/11)
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#27 of 187 Old 07-19-2010, 03:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My current plan is to replace some of my pancreatin enzymes with PNO. Baby spitting up is one of my big symptoms of increasing the enzymes, so the fact that he's spitting up in response to the PNO tells me I'm on the right track.

I don't have a job, don't have a life, don't see friends much (partly cause of dd's needs, partly cause I've gone off the deep end with this stuff), and am not doing too well on the kid/dh front. Especially today. My thought was to throw as much as I could into this while dd was still a baby and wouldn't remember it. 3+ years later, I'm hoping the end is in sight, or I might just give up and redefine who I am.

I still don't know how the pancreatin works, or what makes it so different from the other enzymes. Just that I don't remember getting reactions like this from plant enzymes. Not that I was looking for them... You could always just start slow, and possibly run a pee test after the first dose?

allergy-nutrition mama, dh, 4yo dd, and March ds
Eating shouldn't be stressful!
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#28 of 187 Old 07-19-2010, 11:09 AM
 
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Sprinkle for both of you. Try breakfast the first day (start on a weekend). If that doesn't cause any issues, do all 3 meals (sprinkles) the next day. Then work slowly up from sprinkles.

We were on plant enzymes before, and they helped, but not nearly as much as the digestive enzymes. (We got BIG die off reactions and then much better digestion following the switch, and we were on high quality, strong plant enzymes). However, apparently the Yasko ones don't taste very good, so maybe try them, and if your DS won't eat them, then you could try the plant ones, which don't really taste.

For daycare, I'd mix a bit in with a spoonful of food, rather than sprinkling it on all his food (that way if he doesn't eat all his food, you know he got the enzyme).
Oh boy....tried the enzymes for the first time with DS yesterday. I gave him a sprinkle at each meal and used a total of half a capsule. This morning he woke up with the WORST diaper rash/redness/irritation Ive ever seen him have. Poor baby was howling in pain as I cleaned him up. The whole area was fire engine red...his butt, his parts...everything. This has to be from the enzymes right? I mean I see no other explanation. Is this a common reaction. Do the enzymes make the poop irritating to the skin? Do plant enzymes have the same effect? Did I use too much even though it was just a sprinkle? I did not send them to daycare today. I couldn't do that to him again
Should I stop? or just do a sprinkle once a day? Any suggestions? Oh I felt soooo badly this morning for him

If the people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." Thomas Jefferson.

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#29 of 187 Old 07-19-2010, 11:35 AM
 
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We've settled on 1/16 of a capsule before each meal for our 5yo. 1/8 was way too strong, even for my husband (he started getting canker sores as part of his die-off/detox). you're supposed to dose the enzymes for the amount of food eaten, not for age or size of child/person (though I suppose the two are correlated). However, Lily eats almost as much as Dave at dinner, so they were getting the same dose.

In sum, I'm saying that my 5yo gets roughly 3/16 to 1/4 of a capsule per day and and she eats three big meals plus a good snack. You may want to dial way back for a little guy.

ETA: we're using Thorne's BPP (Betaine/pepsin/pancreatin) which says it has 100mg of Pancreatin per capsule.

Nessa, DD1 (5) DD2 (3) & expecting again in late February/early March!
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#30 of 187 Old 07-19-2010, 08:52 PM
 
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Haven't read the thread. No time atm. Subbing anyway.

Wife of Michael , SAHM to Aristotle 09/99 Raphael 06/07 and Marius 05/09 Known only in dreams but never forgotten: Euphrates Decluttering 290/2010
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