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Old 09-03-2010, 08:38 PM
 
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Interesting. DD isn't taking anything that would kill off lacto (well, she's not taking anything period), she's never been on abx, and is still nursing (although she's really only getting drops at this point.)

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Originally Posted by chlobo View Post
We had no lacto either. I think it must be common to allergy kids.

So CS how was your appointment today? Or did you not have it yet?
Nope, not yet. Leaving in about 10 minutes. But then we're going straight to dismantling a swingset... so I won't update until late tonight at the earliest.

eta: Oh yeah- and just after swearing off all the delicious gfcf junkfood (because I am packing on the pounds!! ), I saw that cheese at the co-op today that Kathy was talking about... so I HAD to get it and some Udi's bread to make a grilled cheese sandwich.

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Old 09-03-2010, 09:01 PM
 
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DS was the only one tested and he had no lacto either. After being on lactobacillus for 2 years. So there's got to be some connection. If I had spare money, I'd get the ALCAT test for me and stool tests for the whole family. DS was never on abx that I remember; I know he never had strep or ear infections or anything like that. DD1 has only been on them once for a double ear infection from the airplane ride from hell when she was 18 months old (prior to my natural mindset, btw). DD2 was on them a bunch with her toe infection and her "folliculitis".

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eta: Oh yeah- and just after swearing off all the delicious gfcf junkfood (because I am packing on the pounds!! ), I saw that cheese at the co-op today that Kathy was talking about... so I HAD to get it and some Udi's bread to make a grilled cheese sandwich.
Was it good? I can't remember if they had a cheddar. Now I'm craving mac & cheese since I didn't like the Namaste version very well.

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Kathy
Forgive me if he cannot eat these due to allergies ... but does he like Sunbutter, it's sunflower seeds and tastes yummy. Also Barney Butter is made from almonds only in a dedicated facility and tastes way different than any other almond butter, just like peanut butter.
He can't do almonds. But he can do sunflower seeds... and actually I think I have a jar in my pantry that my mother bought for me to try with him. I'll have to hunt around. Good idea. It's just hard to find transportable protein for him.



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ETA: Does anyone have a good source of pine nuts? They've really skyrocketed in price lately.
Costco was the best price I'd found but they haven't had them since springtime. I get mine at Price Rite. $5.99 for 8 oz. I think it is.

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One thing I read is that it is a common finding in kids with gluten intolerance (lacto strains help digest grains & gluten). I'll share more if I learn more!
That's interesting... so possibly if they get colonized with the lacto, then they'd be able to digest the gluten better?

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Old 09-03-2010, 09:13 PM
 
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So we had DS take the US Biotek IgG test recently (finger stick) & he only came up sensitive to eggs. No milk or wheat or anything. Then we had some muscle testing at the chiro and he also tested not sensitive to milk. So I was sort of thinking about trialing milk. But what? Raw cultured goat milk? Raw cultured milk? Finding either of those will be difficult but is it worth the shot?
I wouldn't do cultured just b/c my DS has issues with it.

I know of raw milk coops. A private one in Natick that gets it from the same dairy as we do (Pennsylvania Amish Farm) which is A2 milk so that might be just as good as goat. And a farm in Framingham but Guernsey milk is mixed in:
http://www.realmilk.com/where3.html#ma

There's another private one in Tewksbury.

You can always borrow a cup from us!

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proteases wouldn't distinguish good from bad (and lactobacilli live in the small intestine).
There's some way that they do, Karen DeFelice has explained it, but I can't for the life of me remember the details right now.
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:15 PM
 
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I still think reports are accurate that stool tests are suspect *especially* with lacto b/c it lives in the upper/small intestine.
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:20 PM
 
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Old 09-03-2010, 09:28 PM
 
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You know I forgot about the milk and the histamines. We still haven't figured out his congestion thing. We're trying an anti-viral right now & we're doing a blood test for strep.

That said I don't think I want to add histamines and risk further congestion at this point. But it was a darn good thought. And thanks for the links. If we ever get milk back it will be good to know. DH claims *he'll* drive for raw milk.

ETA: Did I mention I'm fat and feeling icky about it?

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Old 09-03-2010, 10:30 PM
 
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Was it good? I can't remember if they had a cheddar. Now I'm craving mac & cheese since I didn't like the Namaste version very well.
No, definitely NOT good. Completely tasteless on my grilled cheese. I can't believe you don't like the Daiya OR the Namaste mac-n-cheese! I thought they were both delicious (but the Daiya does get weird if it's cooked past the barely melted point.)

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I still think reports are accurate that stool tests are suspect *especially* with lacto b/c it lives in the upper/small intestine.
Huh. So it's possible they have a healthy colony of lacto, but the stool tests just aren't picking it up?

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ETA: Did I mention I'm fat and feeling icky about it?
You and me both sister. Can I just tell you that I have already gained FIFTEEN pounds?! I am almost 12 weeks pregnant. This is the exact rate that I gained with DD, and I ended up gaining 90 pounds. There better be frickin twins in here this time....

eta: I'm just eating my grilled cheese in between NAET and swing set..... be back later to update.

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Old 09-03-2010, 10:48 PM
 
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No, definitely NOT good. Completely tasteless on my grilled cheese. I can't believe you don't like the Daiya OR the Namaste mac-n-cheese! I thought they were both delicious (but the Daiya does get weird if it's cooked past the barely melted point.)

Yeah I don't get it. I like Daiya. Tried another vegan version today. Yuck.

You and me both sister. Can I just tell you that I have already gained FIFTEEN pounds?! I am almost 12 weeks pregnant. This is the exact rate that I gained with DD, and I ended up gaining 90 pounds. There better be frickin twins in here this time....

eta: I'm just eating my grilled cheese in between NAET and swing set..... be back later to update.
Yes, but I'm *NOT* pregnant.

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Old 09-03-2010, 10:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kjbrown92 View Post
DS was the only one tested and he had no lacto either. After being on lactobacillus for 2 years. So there's got to be some connection....

That's interesting... so possibly if they get colonized with the lacto, then they'd be able to digest the gluten better?
Have you ever retested your DS, Kathy - does he have lactobacillus now?

And yes, if I'm understanding correctly, lactobaccilli could help significantly in processing gluten (it's lacto strains that are used in most sourdough, to *predigest* gluten).

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I still think reports are accurate that stool tests are suspect *especially* with lacto b/c it lives in the upper/small intestine.
Maybe, but some people have it show up on their test. It seems unlikely my son is digesting the lacto especially well .... Unless digestive enzymes messed up the test - the lacto may have been consumed more. However, there are lacto species in the large intestine too, and his test had NONE. Any *normal* people have a stool test that shows none?

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You know I forgot about the milk and the histamines. We still haven't figured out his congestion thing. We're trying an anti-viral right now & we're doing a blood test for strep.

That said I don't think I want to add histamines and risk further congestion at this point. But it was a darn good thought. And thanks for the links. If we ever get milk back it will be good to know. DH claims *he'll* drive for raw milk.

ETA: Did I mention I'm fat and feeling icky about it?
Yeah, if you still have congestion issues, raw milk could be a problem - it made DS a bit congested initially, until I upped his anti-histamine supps. You might try butter though, or cream, ice cream - very little milk protein & histamine, but lots of totally yummy fat.

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Old 09-04-2010, 12:24 AM
 
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Kathy, CS - for the stool test that showed no lactobacillus, two questions:

1) what time of year did you send the test in?
2) what stool ph does your test show?

I'm working on a theory - lactobacillus can be both heat and ph sensitive. The bacteria need to stay alive in transit to be cultured properly by a lab.

Anyone else have a stool test that does show lactobacillus? Same two questions, when did you send it in, and what stool ph does the test show?

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Old 09-04-2010, 02:11 AM
 
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Kathy, CS - for the stool test that showed no lactobacillus, two questions:

1) what time of year did you send the test in?
2) what stool ph does your test show?

I'm working on a theory - lactobacillus can be both heat and ph sensitive. The bacteria need to stay alive in transit to be cultured properly by a lab.

Anyone else have a stool test that does show lactobacillus? Same two questions, when did you send it in, and what stool ph does the test show?
Beginning of January. pH was 6.3 (normal range 6-7.8.) Wouldn't the heat sensitive thing apply to other bacteria as well though?

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Old 09-04-2010, 02:23 AM
 
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Beginning of January. pH was 6.3 (normal range 6-7.8.) Wouldn't the heat sensitive thing apply to other bacteria as well though?
Some bacteria are more heat sensitive than others. But one idea I have - they tell you not to take antacids before the test. Which we didn't. But, DS takes lots of mag, which is the main ingredient in lots of antacids. His poop pH is like 8 at least. I found a study that says lactobacilli are more pH sensitive than many other gut bacteria (to high pH, because they are at the top end of the gut, so they get hit by the stomach acid most - they are good in acidic pH, and die fast in basic pH). Large intestine gut bacteria handle basic pH much better. So my theory is that the lacto strains might not have survived the 2 days shipping in the very basic poop with all the mag.

I'm going to call and see if they can confirm whether or not lacto would be particularly sensitive to poop pH. Zero lacto just seems like a very odd number - low, that I can see, but zero?? There are a lot of different lacto strains, and he's had lots of exposure, so zero seems crazy. I didn't give him probiotics for 2 days before the test, but you're supposed to still have some probiotic effect for 5 days - so at the very least, we should have seen some of the lacto from his probiotics (e.g. not his, but just probiotics in transit).

I've put him on culturelle, and I have kefir brewing, so I'll assume it's true he has no lactobacilli - but I'm a bit suspicious. It also seems like if he has no lactobacteria, he should have something else pathogenic - and he doesn't. A little yeast, but not enough to fill the huge vacuum that no lactobacilli should create.

However, your data doesn't fit my theory at all .

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Old 09-04-2010, 03:21 AM
 
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By your theory then mamafish9 - nobody should have any lacto strain in their test at all and they should be suspicious of it by now (or stop testing for it altogether) - no?
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Old 09-04-2010, 04:22 AM
 
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No - most people have stool pH around 7 - which would be fine for the lacto bacteria to survive. I figure that if they tell people to stop taking antacids before the test, at least some bacteria are sensitive to the higher pH that is created by antacids. Magnesium does the same thing. So if I stopped my son's magnesium for a day, under this theory, I'd get a poop sample where the lactobacteria survived just fine in transit.

There is also a different stool test offered by metamatrix that uses DNA to analyze the bacteria (so it doesn't need the bacteria to survive shipment to the lab) - we may do that one as a follow-up test.

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Old 09-04-2010, 09:16 AM
 
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Ok, here are 2:

November, no lacto, ph 6.7 (though in a test at the same time DD had lacto)

Jan 06, no lacto, no ph noted

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Old 09-04-2010, 11:20 AM
 
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Ok, I want cheesy meatballs. We used to put parmasean in it. Do you think it would work to soak pine nuts, dehydrate them then grind them? Would that be sort of cheesy?

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Old 09-04-2010, 12:36 PM
 
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However, your data doesn't fit my theory at all .
Sorry. Ours was overnight shipping too; we mailed it late afternoon and they had it early the next morning. Oh- and in a big insulation styrofoam container. So it shouldn't have had any major temp extremes.

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Old 09-04-2010, 12:51 PM
 
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I'd have to double check my chemistry, but I think the way that cal/mag act as antacids is by buffering the pH, rather than directly increasing it. So the mag would push it towards 7 but not beyond. I think.

For changing the bacteria in the colon, that's what prebiotics are about. They're supposed to be selectively eaten by certain (good) strains, and aren't digested by our own enzymes - so if you don't have those strains in the small intestine, and you have at least a *little* in the large intestine, it should do well for increasing those numbers.

What's the difference between the $90 stool test and the $325 one? Is it mostly culturing vs dna?

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Old 09-04-2010, 01:16 PM
 
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CS, waiting for the update.......

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Old 09-04-2010, 01:38 PM
 
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CS, waiting for the update.......
I know, I know... I'm going right now.

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Old 09-04-2010, 01:50 PM
 
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Going to the city for non-food shopping. I can't even remember the last time we went that wasn't food shopping. Christmas?

Wife of Michael , SAHM to Aristotle 09/99 Raphael 06/07 and Marius 05/09 Known only in dreams but never forgotten: Euphrates Decluttering 290/2010
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Old 09-04-2010, 02:26 PM
 
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What's the difference between the $90 stool test and the $325 one? Is it mostly culturing vs dna?
There's actually 4 stool tests (I can get 20% off any of these prices), these are the listed directlab costs:

1) $325 CSA (Doctors Data) - culturing stool test, does gut flora, and also things like pH, SCFA, other digestion markers, etc

2) $113 - just the gut flora part of the CSA above (with my 20% discount)

3) $425 GI Stool (Metametrix) - DNA stool test, gives mostly the same data as the CSA, but different methodology

4) $259 - just the gut flora part of the GI stool test

We did #2, I'm thinking about doing #4 as the repeat test, but it's still a lot more money. The full tests have some interesting info, but phew - expensive!!

ETA: My homemade magnesium & pH test this morning. pH of our water before adding anything, 6.2. pH after adding 1 capsule mag, 8.0+ (top of my test kit's range). pH after adding 1/4tsp ascorbic acid to the water + mag mixture - 5.0 (bottom of my test kit's range). Kirkman Labs sells a "buffered" mag glycinate where they add ascorbic acid and citric acid to the mag (or you can just do mag citrate, which is more acidic - but glycinate works soooo well for DS). So, I'm just going to mix his mag with ascorbic acid from now on. I'll test his poop pH and see if it changes (currently at 8.0 on my test strips).

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Old 09-04-2010, 03:18 PM
 
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stupid big corn. what detoxes corn?

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Old 09-04-2010, 04:23 PM
 
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No, definitely NOT good. Completely tasteless on my grilled cheese. I can't believe you don't like the Daiya OR the Namaste mac-n-cheese! I thought they were both delicious (but the Daiya does get weird if it's cooked past the barely melted point.)

eta: I'm just eating my grilled cheese in between NAET and swing set..... be back later to update.
Namaste mac-n-cheese was a weird texture. Neither of my kids liked it and I didn't like it much either. I got 6 bags of it from Amazon, so I'll be eating it again... maybe I can do something to improve it. The Daiya was just blechy. DS and I each just had a grilled cheese. He wanted another so he just polished off the second one and said it was awesome. I agree with the "not much taste" review. But texture/meltability was good.

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Have you ever retested your DS, Kathy - does he have lactobacillus now?
I have not retested him. I have so many medical bills right now with my boob thing, I don't know how many of us can keep going to the osteopath (at $150 an appt., accepting no insurance).

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Kathy, CS - for the stool test that showed no lactobacillus, two questions:

1) what time of year did you send the test in?
2) what stool ph does your test show?

I'm working on a theory - lactobacillus can be both heat and ph sensitive. The bacteria need to stay alive in transit to be cultured properly by a lab.

Anyone else have a stool test that does show lactobacillus? Same two questions, when did you send it in, and what stool ph does the test show?
I'll have to look. All that stuff is at home. And I'm in NY for the weekend. It seems like if it wasn't a good test for that particular bacteria, that they'd know it, wouldn't they?

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Ok, I want cheesy meatballs. We used to put parmasean in it. Do you think it would work to soak pine nuts, dehydrate them then grind them? Would that be sort of cheesy?
Nutritional yeast? The pine nuts are a texture thing not a flavor thing, I think. At least that's how I use it. The nutritional yeast is what gives it the cheesy flavor. When I was making pierogis a few months ago, I put nutritional yeast in my potato mixture and it turned out really good.

Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
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Old 09-04-2010, 05:25 PM
 
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Oh my goodness. DH and I just talked, really talked. We've had the discussion before about the kids' behavior often being a reflection of how they're feeling (DD had a particularly bad morning--irritable, not listening, generally a pill--I'm guessing adding the digestive enzymes back in) and we talked, and I saw something click in his face.

Because one thing I said was that these long, ongoing behavior-type things (I used my anxiety as an example) aren't wonderful, they aren't necessarily great at making us better and more wonderful as people, sometimes they are just annoying and a drag, and I want to see if I can avoid some of this for the kids. And he asked, is it like... and linked some stuff I've seen in him but hadn't recognized as connected, it's been stuff that's really been a drag for a long time, and the way he explained it, I suddenly realized that it was exactly what I read in a TCM article that really explained him very well.

And we talked. He's considering asking for a consult with Elisabeth. He's never actually been interested in talking to an alternative health type person for himself before--supportive for us, sure, but never interested for himself. Just talking about this was great, but actually having a consult with her could be really helpful. Wow.
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:50 PM
 
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Well congratulations. He must have had a lot of time to think this summer.

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Old 09-04-2010, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sassy September Chat Thread


Pat

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