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Old 02-27-2011, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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not suggesting here that you give it..but have you tested her with clay?  you can certainly do it externally in a bath to pull junk out, but it's not the same.  You know how you stick a pinky into probiotics and let a babe suck on it?  I'm wondering about that with clay.  no answers yet.  It may just be a matter of low and slow with babies....ramping up over a long period of time.

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Old 02-27-2011, 07:48 PM
 
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good idea. I only have non edible sodium bentonite and that was a maybe. When I asked about edible clay, that was a yes. I planned on ordering some tonight or tomorrow. Maybe Chlobo has a tablespoon or two she can give me. . . . Off to ask.

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Old 02-27-2011, 09:28 PM
 
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I'm pretty confused about the clay...what kind, where to get it, how to even take it.  I don't see my son drinking it, but if it were in capsules he'd take it no problem.  My almost 3 yo...not sure at all.  Maybe if I can mix it in limeade or something I made she would take it, but no guarantee.  And what about charcoal vs clay?

 

I do love the idea behind this, and kind of wish I wasn't going away in a week bc I'd start now!  It certainly couldn't hurt anything and just might help. ;)  I do agree the diets seem like more of a crutch, since it does seem people are stuck on them for...well, ever, really.  I wouldn't even have a problem keeping the offending foods out while we did this.  If this would help my kids be less sensitive...well it would be amazing.  I really don't want to subsist on bone broth lol!  That said....would it be extra beneficial to temporarily follow something like the GAPS intro when you hit the probiotic sweet spot?  Don't you think it might even make things work better/faster?  Just throwing ideas out.  Recolonize + easy to digest food might= happy gut.


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Old 02-28-2011, 05:02 AM
 
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True Blue, I just started giving my 3 yr old clay and I mix a 1/2 tsp with apple cider - just a little and she drinks it down and sometimes with a straw cut in half works. Tastes like nothing really.

I explained before hand that it would help with her health and she said, "mama, will that make me be able to eat those black and white cookies (oreos) daddy hides... Cuz I ate one the other day."
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Old 02-28-2011, 05:11 AM
 
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Quote:
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I just did a major dietary cheat as did my dh and there was absolutely no reaction.  Now....that means very little as we're two people....but it was big.  I'm not nursing a little one so I can't say if there was a minor reaction that would have trickled down.  But I'm seriously hopeful.  I have one mama with a tiny baby who has multiple sensitivities starting and we'll see what happens with her since she's currently off about a thousand foods.


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no, lyme is very different sadly.


...But possible! (right?)
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Old 02-28-2011, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I just did a major dietary cheat as did my dh and there was absolutely no reaction.  Now....that means very little as we're two people....but it was big.  I'm not nursing a little one so I can't say if there was a minor reaction that would have trickled down.  But I'm seriously hopeful.  I have one mama with a tiny baby who has multiple sensitivities starting and we'll see what happens with her since she's currently off about a thousand foods.




You didn't gluten yourself did you?nono.gif Lol!


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no, lyme is very different sadly.




...But possible! (right?)


I totally glutened myself-and I'm still doing great!  no change in physical feelings, emotions, bowel function, skin flare etc.  NOTHING!  And it would have been worth it anyway.  Talk to my mother.  I went for YEARS with no slip ups at all.  She made me something that was unfair and irresistible!

 

And for the lyme-totally possible to get to a happy place.  I've seen it, and I've seen it last.  I just don't think THIS protocol would do it by itself.  There is hope!

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Old 02-28-2011, 05:53 AM
 
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Alright about the gluten!! I hope it was good dessert. Whoot!!!!! It is like when I converted to eating meat again after almost 8 years, it was hard and I found dh in the kitchen cooking bacon. Made the transition better and so gooood.
Not that you were looking to be glutened though.

I know what you mean. I talked to a friend the other day who found out she has lyme and is a wreck especially neurologically. She asked me what she should do (and I first recommended she see you, PB), and then I felt that clay wasnt right for her at this time and told her to start breaking down the layers with teasel first.
So when Theloose (I think) asked if clay was all we needed, I think in all health issues there may be something else we need and be open to it.
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Old 02-28-2011, 09:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post

People who are doing the super high dosing are reporting reduced anxiety, an overall sense of peace and excellent digestive function with a lack of need for much TP as Jane pointed out!  They also see absolute regularity, with stools that are well formed, possessing the right color and consistency.  The smell also changes.

 

The sticking point just seems to be that people can't comfortably jump that high without experiencing distress in terms of die off.  That's where my focus is going.  I don't want heavy metals being released into the system, or any increase in toxicity at all.  Assuming this could be the keystone.


Here's my update:

I started CP Six Strain on Saturday. I had worked up to about 1 teaspoon of clay/day in the week prior, and sprinkles here and there for dd. I put about .05 g (about 12.5 billion cfus) in a shot glass of water, giving dd one teaspoon of that and downing the rest myself. Saturday night I felt incredible - stupidly giddy, much like the first time I took iodine. The only negative symptom I am having is the easily-recognizable "die-off" poop. Dd's skin looks good, her mood has been great, and she has pooped 2x day (much nicer than mine). I am going to be slightly upping her B's, as she has been doing this stutter thing she does when she's burning through them, and zinc, as she had pink pee last night which she hasn't had in a long while. Happy to be in this place right now, the synchronicity of it, and the affirmation that I have been doing something right with dd so she can tolerate the pbx now. PLEASE - I want eggs & coconut back yummy.gif !!!

We're gonna keep going and see where it leads us!

 

ETA: to add a few more details, since I keep track of this stuff. My skin feels much smoother and plumper. I am keeping a close eye on my eyes - they were hazel green with gold flecks my whole life and when I started gut healing and was at my best they started clearing to a grey-blue with a lot less flecks. They are now grey-blue with a gold ring around the pupil. There was something else too, but I forget! I'll add it when I remember.

 



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I do love the idea behind this, and kind of wish I wasn't going away in a week bc I'd start now!  It certainly couldn't hurt anything and just might help. ;)  I do agree the diets seem like more of a crutch, since it does seem people are stuck on them for...well, ever, really.  I wouldn't even have a problem keeping the offending foods out while we did this.  If this would help my kids be less sensitive...well it would be amazing.  I really don't want to subsist on bone broth lol!  That said....would it be extra beneficial to temporarily follow something like the GAPS intro when you hit the probiotic sweet spot?  Don't you think it might even make things work better/faster?  Just throwing ideas out.  Recolonize + easy to digest food might= happy gut.


I have felt my much better the more GAPS-ish I eat, especially with the broth based soups. I do think it would accelerate healing.


Emily, cooking allergen free, knitting, reading, gardening Mom to 1 beautiful girl, born in the water on July 1, 2006 Wife to 1 handsome man since September 10, 2005
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Old 02-28-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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ETA: to add a few more details, since I keep track of this stuff. My skin feels much smoother and plumper. I am keeping a close eye on my eyes - they were hazel green with gold flecks my whole life and when I started gut healing and was at my best they started clearing to a grey-blue with a lot less flecks. They are now grey-blue with a gold ring around the pupil. There was something else too, but I forget! I'll add it when I remember.

 


oooo... iris diagnosis :)  i should dig out my charts.


Jennifer, Naturopath and mom

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Old 02-28-2011, 10:58 AM
 
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Okay, you had me until the metals and lyme stuff. We use Theralac (DS, DD2 and I are all on one a day). We all have food intolerances and lyme and metals. So are you saying we shouldn't do this mega-priobiotic/clay protocol because of the lyme/metals, or just that we might need more than that (DS is on 2 antibiotics, I'm on herbals, DD2 is on herbals; none of us have addressed the metals yet, but I'm getting ready to)? This probiotic in particular helped DS to get to a good place (with enzymes as well) pooping wise. I'm looking for that quick and easy fix but I know it isn't out there.


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Old 02-28-2011, 08:30 PM
 
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i'm suitably impressed with the breadth of VSL#3 studies (from just the abstracts, anyway) - i'm not easily impressed these days.  there's a growing body of work using it for all sorts of gut and bowel issues.  a mention of it with celiac disease, crohn's, etc.  it apparently decreases the diversity of gut flora, which may help with healing.  it also appears to suppress Th2 responses in food allergy (in rodents).

 

just if you do look up VSL#3 in pubmed directly, you should know that you'll get a bunch of ... semen-related... papers.  apparently, there's a "VSL" term in animal reproduction/fertility studies that confuses pubmed search engine.  

 

i haven't gone beyond the abstracts but when i do, if i find some gems, i'll share :)

 

(And it was easier to start with VSL#3 because it narrows down the search parameters substantially)


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Old 02-28-2011, 08:48 PM
 
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Still dipping my toes in.  Does that mean that it's better to use one with less strains than more?  I had thought something like Therbiotic with 12 strains would get all kind of good flora in there, but I have nothing to back that up.


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Old 03-01-2011, 06:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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i'm suitably impressed with the breadth of VSL#3 studies (from just the abstracts, anyway) - i'm not easily impressed these days.  there's a growing body of work using it for all sorts of gut and bowel issues.  a mention of it with celiac disease, crohn's, etc.  it apparently decreases the diversity of gut flora, which may help with healing.  it also appears to suppress Th2 responses in food allergy (in rodents).

 



that's one of the first things that set me off.  then neuroscience did their presentation on the Th1 modulation.  I've been trying to figure out a reliable way, along with my colleague, of getting people back into Th1, becoming parasympathetic dominant as that will shift the cascade.  It can be done in many ways, but they don't seem to last-and I do understand that the body has to be taught not to go down that sympathetic response path.  But, it's a common denominator in so many of these kids and while I know some seriously competent people, that doesn't help those that live 10 hours away.

 

There was a study by a neuropsych guy that found that a particular herb reliably switched people and that it worked as well, if not better, than the medication from pharmaceutical companies (great talk!)   Anyway, we've been using that as an essence and it does seem to support the neurological aspects nicely....but it's not enough.

 

Anyway...we've been working on this for years and this finally feels like a break.  I'm trying not to get too excited because there may be additional components (like with the bowel nosodes and such....berberine also has some studies which were just pointed out to me by my colleague showing it's efficacy for leaky gut and closing tight junctions.)  So there's possibly more, or alternate ways to do it.  I'm still playing!  We were also talking last night about immunology and microbiology of the gut flora and wanting to get deeper in to that.

 

Still a work in progress!

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Old 03-01-2011, 10:02 AM
 
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Can somone please summarize? I am new to exploring allergies and am very intrigued by this thread. But you guys are talking a different language!!

I have 2 DDs

DD1- almost 3- never had any signs of intolerance as a baby- now she is very gassy and poop is mushy

DD2- three months- extremely gassy and crampy- some green poops and some poops with mucous- I have cut dairy and eggs- she has good days and bad days and I can't seem to find a common thread in the bad days

So are you guys saying to supplememt with high doses of probiotics and also take clay?

Any specific recommendations on brands/where to buy?

How exactly would I implement this with the little ones?

Thanks!! Great info and research you guys are doing!

Meghan, Married to Scott, Mother to Audrey- 2, and Expecting Nov 10th
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:23 PM
 
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So PB, do you think its still a worthwhile thing for people with lyme to try?  Or will having lyme screw it up or make it worthless?


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Old 03-02-2011, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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not at all!  I am just not confident that it would heal the lyme.  I think it would still be beneficial.

 

I'm gathering some more information and have plans to talk with someone who uses this idea in her practice.  Hopefully I'll know more soon.

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Old 03-03-2011, 01:05 PM
 
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Well PB, I will certainly be a genuine pig for whatever trials you want to run. winky.gif
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:40 PM
 
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I'm going to start myself on this experiment, maybe dh too.  But our problems are minor congestion (dairy, go figure) and adrenal fatigue.  I'm hoping that this would be a route to reduce the congestion/quasi-allergic state, which would then reduce the load on the adrenals.

 

 


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Old 03-03-2011, 03:35 PM
 
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Day 4 - 2 tsp clay.  We'll see how it goes.


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Old 03-03-2011, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm doing well at 2T. right now.  Feeling really excellent and in fact, today, took more.  I actually feel  like my gut doesn't exist.  It's a pretty cool feeling!

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Old 03-04-2011, 11:28 AM
 
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I'm at a little over a tablespoon, and miserable. And sick. I'm wondering if I'm either reacting to new stuff, or if the clay is somehow mobilizing and I need a different kind or to go way higher. Why do I have to be the ultra sensitive one?

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Old 03-04-2011, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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if it's that the clay is too much then you can figure that out.  what's the stooling like?  clay works in a very interesting way.  if there's junk sitting in pockets in your colon it will pull it out so it is possible that you could feel worse before feeling better.  You don't hear it a lot, but I am seeing it in people that are increasing doses quickly. 

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Old 03-04-2011, 02:44 PM
 
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Stool is toxic ugly, same as the yeast remedy and when I was increasing pancreatic enzymes.

 

So what do you do about feeling worse before you feel better?  Increase it more to bind the extra gunk?  Or back way off and try to go slower?


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Old 03-04-2011, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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back way off and try to go slower


that's what I'd do.  you are sensitive because you have so much happening in your gut.  it was holding steady and trying to keep up with the status quo.  as clay removes junk it can expose areas that were covered with mucus or pockets of build up.  as those areas are revealed you may experience increased sensitivity.  but we still want gentle.  There's no good reason to push so fast that you are in misery.  while some might argue that more could make you feel better, I've seen it go both ways.  going slow and steady won't get you there faster, but it may well get you there in the same amount of time while being comfortable (a relative term, to be sure.)

 

I've seen people told to push through things and I don't like it.  If you are beyond your comfort level then I feel like it's a good time to back down.  that's not a failure of your body, it's you respecting it.

 

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Old 03-04-2011, 03:34 PM
 
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so then, are we talking a ramp down to try and keep binding stuff that's already mobilized? or an abrupt drop to stop the dumping, NOW?  At about 2tsp, I think I was starting to stabilize, maybe.  Just jump back to there?


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Old 03-04-2011, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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yup, go back there for now.  if you jump and become miserable then you need to go down.  if you jump and feel a million times better, then that's your answer.  you procured necessary information the only way you could, and it's time to go back for a bit!

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Old 03-04-2011, 04:38 PM
 
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It's being able to read that info and understand it that's killer. So glad you're here! love.gif

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Old 03-05-2011, 06:09 AM
 
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Quote:
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I'm doing well at 2T. right now.  Feeling really excellent and in fact, today, took more.  I actually feel  like my gut doesn't exist.  It's a pretty cool feeling!


Are you kidding me? 2 tablespoons plus. Did I read that right!? Whew!

I am feeling great at 2 tsps but have this weird anticipation to 1 tablespoon. I am learning so much about my body and it is so cool.

I wonder if the clay makes it so you don't need probiotics. I have this craving for kombucha and would need it to settle my stomach, but since taking the clay )especially since upping it), I don't crave kombucha. I wonder if I am now able to create all my gut flora now by myself? Of is there some in the clay?
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:42 AM
 
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I'm ready to be a guinea pig. I just finished my millionth round of abx (might be a slight exaggeration). I have Theralac; 1 capsule:

5 billion CFU lactobacillus paracasei

2 billion CFU lactobacillus rhamnosus

10 billion CFU lactobacillus acidophilus

10 billion CFU bifidobacterium lactis (strain Bl-34)

3 billion CFU bifidobacterium lactis (strain Bi-07)

20 mg lactoferrin (milk)

gee, how come my extrmely sensitive DS has never reacted to this with milk in it? Interesting.

 

And I also have Klaire Labs ABx support; 1 capsule:

5 billion CFU saccharomyces boulardii

2.5 billion CFU lactobacillus rhamnosus

1.25 billion CFU bifidobacterium bifidum

1.25 billion CFU bifidobacterium breve

 

How many of each should I take. I also have bentonite clay (liquid). I also have lyme/metals. Hit me with your protocol PB and I'll give you detailed feedback for the professional paper that you're going to publish on this one!!


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Old 03-05-2011, 08:53 AM
 
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I'm guessing it's not so much the clay having flora in it, or you producing it on your own, but rather the clay neutralizing the toxins your existing flora is making. And that that's where the probiotics come in - they would drop your need for the clay, since now your gut would be making good, helpful stuff like vitamins, and helping absorption, rather than making all kinds of toxins and blocking nutrient absorption.

I've also heard clay described as changing the environment to encourage growth of good bacteria vs bad, though, so you might be on to something?

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