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#241 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 10:21 AM
 
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So what could have happened between kid 1 and kid 2 TO ME to cause the leaky gut that put my kids on the path of intolerance. .
Nutrient depletion. Pregnancy stresses the body and most people dont' know to replenish the stores.....having kids close together also exacerbates this issue.

As a whole our society is vastly undernourished. That is the issue. I don't think yeast is the root of all illness, not by a longshot. Mostly I think it's a symptom of malnourishment. That would be my two cents. It's why *generally* kids get more allergic on down the line. It won't always be the case...for me number two is the worst off, but I also spent ALOT of time building nutrient stores and healing between kid#2 and kid #3. So it still supports that theory. I knew what I was dealing with and worked consciously and diligently to change things with a good amount of success.
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#242 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 10:38 AM
 
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My first two were 3 years apart. And I didn't change eating habits between kid 1 and kid 2, so if I was deficient for one, I was deficient for the other. Between kid 2 and kid 3 it was 5 years. I developed chronic UTIs during that time and chronic back pain. Doctors (many) couldn't find a reason for either. My DH said we should have another kid to fix me, since kid #2 must have "broken" me. And during the pregnancy, my UTIs and my back pain mysteriously went away. Two months after birth, both came back. And until this summer when I went off dairy, soy, gluten, and eggs, they were a constant. The back pain is now mostly gone (enough to get me off the pain meds) but I still don't have the courage to go off the abx (once a day maintenance dose) to see if it's fixed that too. The question I still have is why. When I was BFing kid #2, and I was off dairy, I learned how to really cook, and we've been pretty good healthy-food wise since then. And we got even healthier during my third pregnancy, when we went on a Mediterranean diet (DH's idea because he wanted to be even healthier). I want to know why, not so I can blame something, but so I can correct it. I'm now doing enzymes (real fermented foods), probiotics (coconut milk yogurt), fish oil, and the kids are doing probiotics and CLO. But is that enough to heal? Will they/I ever truly heal? I know it's not questions any of you can answer, and we all have the same questions. It's just bugging me. DS is 8 and I keep hoping someday he'll be able to eat everything. DD has been restricted tons since birth so she doesn't know any different.

Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
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#243 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 10:45 AM
 
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I don't know if this fits on this thread- but a lot of people were talking about prenancy and antibiotics and problems: I am ttc and just started a round of antibiotics in response to a deer tick bite- as a preventative for lyme- may or may not have got lyme from it. We have been ttc for over a yr so I am not so hopeful we will this time- so I am taking the antibiotics and then if we do conceive I will stop as soon as I have ANY indication. Is this still a potential harm to the potential baby? Thx, sorry to ask my own question on this different thread but I had to know.
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#244 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 10:57 AM
 
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My first two were 3 years apart. And I didn't change eating habits between kid 1 and kid 2, so if I was deficient for one, I was deficient for the other.
absolutely untrue. to understand what's going on here you have to understand that. Most all of us all start out subclinically deficient (sad but true.) Pregnancy uses up what you have because that's what it's supposed to do-but you are supposed to (in an ideal world) replenish the stores. We don't do that. I don't know one person who has truly focused on doing that. You were not on a level playing field before pregnancy is my guess and that did you in. The stores will be more and more inadequate for each birth.

Traditionally speaking 3 years apart isn't even really enough even if you are working to replenish stores. I don't know that it's even close to possible to it through foods alone. In fact I'm pretty darn certain it's not.
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#245 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 11:07 AM
 
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I've been on abx for the lst 2.5 years straight (chronic UTIs that have no cause that anyone can find).
UTI can be prevented with probiotics and homeopathy. Specific research studies are linked in the threads.

Probiotics. http://www.springerlink.com/content/1741p5k22284x265/

Homeopathics: http://www.truestarhealth.com/Notes/2262002.html

You might check out these threads also:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...s#post11703950

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...s#post11704452


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#246 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 11:12 AM
 
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Is this still a potential harm to the potential baby?
No way would I be ttc while on antibotics, personally. Check out this thread about nutrients and probiotics in the role of conception, development and allergies. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=983029


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#247 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 11:22 AM
 
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since it's a foreign concept, let me elaborate:
there is a range that it acceptable to the body to maintain daily functions in terms of nutrient stores. IN times of stress certain nutrients are used more quickly than others and things like pregnancy require larger amounts of certain nutrients. Because there s a wide range of micronutrients you can't really put a number on the range for all of them, but let's. Let's call that range 20-100. 100 is total nourishment. You have everything you need and at this range you have perfect health. Now, as we have been saying different people have different needs for different nutrients. If you have a higher need for folate, for instance and you are not meeting that need your entire profile goes down.

So, growing up with processed foods, OTC meds, prescription meds, and the like you aren't going to be coming close to the upper end of that range. Most of us at best would be around 30-50 to start with. Now we get pregnant and pregnancy requires us to up our nutrient intake. Almost noone does that. People focus on macronutrients, and maybe iron and folic acid but that's about it. If you need more of those two things you also need more of everything else involved in the utilization of those nutrients. Again, almost noone really pays attention to that. And even if prenatals worked they aren't going to be enough. They really provide the bare minimum-if that.

Anyway so you throughout the pregnancy are likely to drop to the bottom of this range or below it if you started below. Your body will strip what you have to feed the baby. Your stores will continue to plummet. Then comes breastfeeding....same thing. By the end of it-and let's say the kids are 3 years apart. What that means for many (and maybe not you-but many) is that the body is still trying to recover from 10 months of pregnancy, breastfeeding (depending how long you go) and then you get pregnant again and the cycle starts once more, but you have far less wiggle room this time around.

when you aren't getting large amounts of nutrients your body can't repair. It is always playing catch up. I remember talking to you a year or so ago about food allergies and the like. I'm glad you have uncovered them, but please understand that in the grand scheme of things everything hinges on nourishment and there is alot that can interfere with that. You had been having all kinds of health issue IIRC which is why we talked about your gut health. That does show you were already in the hole so to speak.

You can heal, we all can, it's really a matter of finding a practitioner that really understands what is going on and can make sure your body is getting what it needs to heal (not just throwing supplements at it, but making sure the body is able to USE them.) I hope that makes sense.
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#248 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 11:31 AM
 
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Mammo2Sammo, I remember thinking I wanted to throw the baby against the wall at some point of sleep deprivation. PPD is hell, especially when the stored toxins are being dumped into our blood and baby's blood due to rapid loss of fat stores.

I don't really know about liver support or detox. But wanted to send along a hug.


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#249 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 11:58 AM
 
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So, growing up with processed foods, OTC meds, prescription meds, and the like you aren't going to be coming close to the upper end of that range. Most of us at best would be around 30-50 to start with. Now we get pregnant and pregnancy requires us to up our nutrient intake. Almost noone does that. People focus on macronutrients, and maybe iron and folic acid but that's about it. If you need more of those two things you also need more of everything else involved in the utilization of those nutrients. Again, almost noone really pays attention to that. And even if prenatals worked they aren't going to be enough. They really provide the bare minimum-if that.
So since my body didn't tolerate prenatals during any of my pregnancies (I'd throw them right back up again -- they tried me on all different kinds), I used up all my stores with #1 and never recovered. Huh. Interesting and very plausible. I know this doesn't have anything to do with the c-section theory (though my c-section baby #3 had more intolerances than #2, though it could have also been more gut damage in me). Not that I'm going to get pregnant again. I'm old. But I've got to get us all healed, and nutritious, and I am much more cognizant of healing them than me. I know I don't eat enough, though I don't eat processed foods. I haven't had good luck with doctors either. They do throw supplements at me and tell me that will "cure" me. And I just don't believe that. There's got to be more.

Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
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#250 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 12:50 PM
 
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UTI can be prevented with probiotics and homeopathy. Specific research studies are linked in the threads.

Probiotics. http://www.springerlink.com/content/1741p5k22284x265/

Homeopathics: http://www.truestarhealth.com/Notes/2262002.html

You might check out these threads also:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...s#post11703950

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...s#post11704452


Pat
Believe me, I've tried everything everyone has recommended from cranberry pills/cranberry juice, to different habits (peeing before/after sex, no baths, etc.) to muscle retraining exercises, to marshmallow root tea, etc.. There is nothing physically wrong (that anyone can find, and they've tested me up the wazoo -- literally), and they're different bugs all the time that are increasingly resistant.

Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
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#251 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 02:48 PM
 
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since it's a foreign concept, let me elaborate:
there is a range that it acceptable to the body to maintain daily functions in terms of nutrient stores. IN times of stress certain nutrients are used more quickly than others and things like pregnancy require larger amounts of certain nutrients. Because there s a wide range of micronutrients you can't really put a number on the range for all of them, but let's. Let's call that range 20-100. 100 is total nourishment. You have everything you need and at this range you have perfect health. Now, as we have been saying different people have different needs for different nutrients. If you have a higher need for folate, for instance and you are not meeting that need your entire profile goes down.

So, growing up with processed foods, OTC meds, prescription meds, and the like you aren't going to be coming close to the upper end of that range. Most of us at best would be around 30-50 to start with. Now we get pregnant and pregnancy requires us to up our nutrient intake. Almost noone does that. People focus on macronutrients, and maybe iron and folic acid but that's about it. If you need more of those two things you also need more of everything else involved in the utilization of those nutrients. Again, almost noone really pays attention to that. And even if prenatals worked they aren't going to be enough. They really provide the bare minimum-if that.

Anyway so you throughout the pregnancy are likely to drop to the bottom of this range or below it if you started below. Your body will strip what you have to feed the baby. Your stores will continue to plummet. Then comes breastfeeding....same thing. By the end of it-and let's say the kids are 3 years apart. What that means for many (and maybe not you-but many) is that the body is still trying to recover from 10 months of pregnancy, breastfeeding (depending how long you go) and then you get pregnant again and the cycle starts once more, but you have far less wiggle room this time around.

when you aren't getting large amounts of nutrients your body can't repair. It is always playing catch up. I remember talking to you a year or so ago about food allergies and the like. I'm glad you have uncovered them, but please understand that in the grand scheme of things everything hinges on nourishment and there is alot that can interfere with that. You had been having all kinds of health issue IIRC which is why we talked about your gut health. That does show you were already in the hole so to speak.

You can heal, we all can, it's really a matter of finding a practitioner that really understands what is going on and can make sure your body is getting what it needs to heal (not just throwing supplements at it, but making sure the body is able to USE them.) I hope that makes sense.
I am really interested in this conversation, because it really makes sense to me with our personal situation (DD's and my food allergies). I definitely didn't have the healthiest lifestyle not that long ago... although I got a lot healthier the year before I got pregnant. And looking back now (with all I have learned about food over the past year), I really wasn't all that healthy just before or during pregnancy either.

I would love to think about having another baby, but I just can't imagine how long it will take me to get myself healthy enough for that! I've been on a never-ending search for a good HCP, but so far no luck. And my insurance doesn't cover anything but MD's, so I can only do so much out of pocket.

Do you have some recommendations of where I can start (or books I can read)? I like the idea of healing myself with natural foods, rather than supplements.

Mom to DD1 (10/07) and DD2 (3/11)
geek.gif I blog about our life with food allergies and eosinophilic disorders.
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#252 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 03:27 PM
 
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I am really interested in this conversation, because it really makes sense to me with our personal situation (DD's and my food allergies). I definitely didn't have the healthiest lifestyle not that long ago... although I got a lot healthier the year before I got pregnant. And looking back now (with all I have learned about food over the past year), I really wasn't all that healthy just before or during pregnancy either.

I would love to think about having another baby, but I just can't imagine how long it will take me to get myself healthy enough for that! I've been on a never-ending search for a good HCP, but so far no luck. And my insurance doesn't cover anything but MD's, so I can only do so much out of pocket.

Do you have some recommendations of where I can start (or books I can read)? I like the idea of healing myself with natural foods, rather than supplements.
I am really interested in this too. The only good thing about dealing with these allergies is I've learned how unhealthy I was before and during pregnancy and I will make sure DD will learn much healthier habits. But I still haven't quite figured out the right healing regime. I ordered a starter package to make kombucha and water kefir, but not sure what else to do with respect to natural foods. And I too would like another child but I'm not young and running out of time!
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#253 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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KJ, I can help you. I had chronic UTIs for years that got increasingly more resistant and then went to my kidneys. I ended up in hospital in Chicago once on a drip of pain meds, fluids and antibiotics. I have to go, but I'll return shortly.

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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#254 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 06:41 PM
 
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since it's a foreign concept, let me elaborate:
there is a range that it acceptable to the body to maintain daily functions in terms of nutrient stores. IN times of stress certain nutrients are used more quickly than others and things like pregnancy require larger amounts of certain nutrients. Because there s a wide range of micronutrients you can't really put a number on the range for all of them, but let's. Let's call that range 20-100. 100 is total nourishment. You have everything you need and at this range you have perfect health. Now, as we have been saying different people have different needs for different nutrients. If you have a higher need for folate, for instance and you are not meeting that need your entire profile goes down.

So, growing up with processed foods, OTC meds, prescription meds, and the like you aren't going to be coming close to the upper end of that range. Most of us at best would be around 30-50 to start with. Now we get pregnant and pregnancy requires us to up our nutrient intake. Almost noone does that. People focus on macronutrients, and maybe iron and folic acid but that's about it. If you need more of those two things you also need more of everything else involved in the utilization of those nutrients. Again, almost noone really pays attention to that. And even if prenatals worked they aren't going to be enough. They really provide the bare minimum-if that.

Anyway so you throughout the pregnancy are likely to drop to the bottom of this range or below it if you started below. Your body will strip what you have to feed the baby. Your stores will continue to plummet. Then comes breastfeeding....same thing. By the end of it-and let's say the kids are 3 years apart. What that means for many (and maybe not you-but many) is that the body is still trying to recover from 10 months of pregnancy, breastfeeding (depending how long you go) and then you get pregnant again and the cycle starts once more, but you have far less wiggle room this time around.

when you aren't getting large amounts of nutrients your body can't repair. It is always playing catch up. I remember talking to you a year or so ago about food allergies and the like. I'm glad you have uncovered them, but please understand that in the grand scheme of things everything hinges on nourishment and there is alot that can interfere with that. You had been having all kinds of health issue IIRC which is why we talked about your gut health. That does show you were already in the hole so to speak.

You can heal, we all can, it's really a matter of finding a practitioner that really understands what is going on and can make sure your body is getting what it needs to heal (not just throwing supplements at it, but making sure the body is able to USE them.) I hope that makes sense.
Yes!!! I feel this is so true! I've meditated on my dd's issues and I really think it is generations of ignoring the Laws of Health...I am trying to move away from that and ironically feel that I have a better chance than most but still! I second the motion for books and ideas...and I believe yeast can play a huge part as well...

Our story...I've never had a vax nor abx, and neither has dd...my parents fed us way better than mainstream, whole grains ect and aside from a dairy intolerance, I've always felt so above normal in health (DS inherited that from me...my firstborn.) He had abx at birth for CNN and we battled thrush at 9 mos, and I fought it systemically...we healed, DD1 came when ds was 25 mos--yeast came back in pregnancy. When she was 2 1/2 she became intolerant to gluten and soy and had never had dairy...DD#2 came 28 mos after that and she hasn't had dairy, gluten, or soy yet. But she does get hives from nightshades...I had major pre and postpartum depression with her and hence was on many supps for that. I also had a midwife who had me on different things that I feel helped with the deficiencies, but I also ate Haagan Das every night with the depression. Since then I've healed that, but both dd's and I are battling yeast! DD1-- I haven't been able to get her healing and dd2and I recently began battling it as well. So I'm loving this thread and am anxious to try things for yeast and complete healing as well! Maybe we could start a new thread for that? (Renourishing the body back to a higher level of nutrients on store)
As far as an experienced md or np to help--there is NO ONE here like that...I am on my own (small towns, sigh).
So can you really build back what it took generations to break down? In one lifetime? I am trying and I am hoping to begin the healing thru the next generations! But it sure is an uphill climb...and I get a lot of "yeah, if you're so healthy why are you experiencing these problems" sceptism...enough rambling, lol.

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#255 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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UTIs

When you get tested for cystitis/urinary tract infection, they do not look for bacteria or yeast, they look for signs of infection in the urine. Signs of infection in this case are increased leukocytes, blood, pain and frequency. If you have these, front line defense is antibiotics.

They give this without first checking that it isn't a yeast infection of the urinary tract.

Not only that, but to understand how yeast causes chronic bladder bacterial infections takes a bit of understanding of physiology. I can attempt to help with that.

Myth: UTIs are an acid condition of the bladder.

Truth: UTIs are an alkaline condition of the bladder.

Urine is naturally acidic. The burning you feel when you have a UTI is the burn of alkaline, or often it is not related at all to the pH. Burning that isn't related to the pH can be helped with alkalising agents, although this may backfire, as you'll see. Cranberry often gives relief because it causes the urine to become more acidic.

If you know the minimum about microorganisms, you know this: yeast thrive in an alkaline condition, good bacteria like acidic.

Yeast will force its environment to be alkaline, whether that is the bowel, vagina, mouth or bladder (or elsewhere). All of those places are normally at least slightly acidic. So yeast can be the cause of its continued infection, OR, it can be from another major cause: low alkaline reserves.

How can low alkaline reserves cause alkaline urine? Immediate logic says that low alkaline would mean high acid. However, the body works within an extremely tight homeostatic range. Any tiny shift in pH and you can get very sick. A shift in the blood of even 1 point in pH and you're dead. So, it's fairly serious.

The body has these alkaline reserves, and they include calcium and magnesium. Most stores of calcium are in the bones but both cal and mag are everywhere really. If your diet or absorption is poor of alkaline nutrients, or you have a higher demand for them, such as pregnancy, your body will start to drag those nutrients out of your bones and tissues - and I'm not kidding. It MUST survive, it must make the heart beat for instance, and the cells operate, so it will start ripping those nutrients out of the bones and muscles of your limbs first, as they are considered most expendable on the survival scale.

You will notice this as restless leg syndrome.

If you continue to ignore your body, it will move into calf cramping. What pregnant woman hasn't enjoyed those little gems?

This is because calcium and magnesium are necessary for the actin and myosin - the basic muscle fibres - to contract and release.

Either at this time, or very soon after, your body is in acid crisis. Acid crisis is not "acid system" (there is no such thing, an acid system will kill you, plus, the body has both alkaline places and acidic places. Be wary of any practitioner that uses the phrase "acid system".) An acid crisis is the body struggling to meet its alkaline demands. You are using more than you are taking in.

Skipping over some more complicated physiology and we get to the fact that the urine is too acidic by the time it reaches your kidneys. The body's emergency buffering system is ammonia, which it then pumps into the urine and this is passed into the bladder for excretion. Ammonia is VERY alkaline, and it burns if you touch it - you use it to clean bathroom sinks... that ammonia.

This turns the bladder contents alkaline... uh, not so good. Our body is surviving, but we are no longer thriving. pH imbalance is a major cause of most infections. This alone can be the cause of major yeast infections and overgrowth. Even though the system is low on alkalinity, it is the alkalinity itself due to the emergency measures that allows the infections.

Another note is that yeast and bad bugs grow well together. Maybe it is the pH thing, not sure. But they first noted this when they put yeast and tuberculosis together in test situations. Yeast also helps things like staph, pseudomonas, proteus and lactobacilli. It even causes the bacteria responsible for ear infections, Hemophilus, to grow better (yeast is the reason for recurrent ear infections in kids, btw).

Infection by urea-splitting bacteria such as proteus and psudomonas cause an alkaline urine all by themselves, also.

So not only to antibiotics clear out any good bacteria, it leaves the yeast behind with nothing to stop it going out of control - hence, the pH and growth factors remain, and therefore so does the UTI, which becomes chronic.

KJ, you almost certainly have a yeast issue. It is quite typical for reactions to become worse with each subsequent child, with no intervention such as antibiotics whatsoever, just pregnancy itself. Pregnancy allows the perfect situation for yeast overgrowth, hence "third trimester thrush" and UTIs of pregnancy. It likes the progesterone, and the low alkaline reserves. (the Pill also causes the same situation) Unfortunately, the abx given for that only exacerbate the problem (and if you didn't have thrush before your abx, you do now, eh? don't they hand out thrush cream with the abx these days?). People get a false sense of security when their "vaginal thrush is cleared". This means nuthin'. It just means the overgrowth in the vagina is under control for the time being.

KJ, I wonder if you read some of my more lengthy posts with your question of what might have caused the last child to get reactive. Cos I've kinda been explaining that in great detail on this thread. I don't think yeast causes everything. There are so many issues today and this is just one of them. Birth and yeast issues go together like peas and carrots these days. But when I see a pattern in a mother/child dyad, I have to speak out. The yeast pattern yells loud and clear, and has become rather predictable. So I think that nutritional status no doubt played a part in the pH crisis and other building issues creating this problem in yourself and your child. But what you are left with is the yeast havok, which is going to, or already has, wreaked much havok via your gut.

Correcting nutritional status is essential, yes, but I like to start at the symptoms. I'm a bit mainstream in that way. You can do both, symptom relief and long term repair.

Must run for now. Please ask if this was all too much info. I can give links or whatnot. But that would have been even more time consuming for this post. Next post I can do links if that is wanted.

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#256 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 10:05 PM
 
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[QUOTE=firefaery;12413826]Okay, I have ALOT to say to you and I'll do what I can before my kids tweak.

Low milk supply (and oversupply) is an indication of an unhealthy gut which of course leads to a nutrient deficiency. Equine studies have correlated low milk supply with a cobalt deficiency. However there is alot to look at there. Yeast thriving also indicates a B vitamin deficiency, and I would wonder about your ds's palate. It is broad and U shaped or narrow and pitched? Is there still a visible line down the center?

Was the stooling issue from birth? Did that ever change?

Based on your history I think you are probably deficient in zinc, vitamins A and D and omega 3 fatty acids. Magnesium comes up too. They would all make alot of sense given the picture you have painted.

You probably aren't able to lose more right now because the body is trying to protect itself. That can change when you figure out what the underlying issue is. Even then though toxins are stored in the fat and your body will generally not allow too many toxins to be dumped into the bloodstream until it's ready to handle it.

I actually think muscle testing can be very effective, but only if the practitioner knows what they are doing. And, even if the supplement was fine but the liver wasn't it shouldn't have tested positive. Muscle testing looks to see how the body as a whole responds so if there is even a slight issue it should be negative. I will say though I have seen practitioners that really understand it (and can accurately pinpoint issues that are later confirmed by bloodtesting) and practitioners that want to use it, but really have no clue. There are many ways to do it too. I don't know. I've seen it be helpful in the right hands and leave MUCH to be desired in the wrong ones. Not commenting on *your* practitioner....just sayin'.
/QUOTE]

wow so much good info for me

the palates of both my boys' and mine are narrow and pitched with a ridge down the middle. DH's is much wider, but it does seem to have a ridge.

as mentioned before I had ppd for first preg. One way I tried to prevent it for 2nd preg was with a b-complex, along with daily walks and light exposure (hmmm vit d??) No ppd with second preg.

stooling for DS1 improved with addition of solids. He poops regularly once a day.
stooling for DS2 has been frequent but poor. Great improvement with the addition of high quality probiotics. they are perfect, no loose stools. ditto for me.

magnesium - I sometimes struggle with rls. ds1 struggles with hyperactivity, irritability, anxiety and sensitivity to noise (I really need help with regards to DS1 above behavior)

zinc I have white spots on my nails. extreme stretch marks with any kind of weight gain, acne throughout life

good info about weight loss. weight loss and weight gain have been such a mystery to me. I feel like it has been out of my control.

muscle testing - I found it to work for many things. testing told np that I was "wicked low on calcium". but allergies were iffy.

I just started taking hvclo. I have on order from Frontier nettle leaf and chickweed for making a tea like drink that you describe in other places. Will these help me? any other herb suggestions?

it is amazing how what you say (on this thread and other threads) are pieces of a puzzle that fit together. It is such a relief to get such information.

Children deserve the respect of puzzling it out.
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#257 of 1043 Old 10-18-2008, 11:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Calm View Post
When you get tested for cystitis/urinary tract infection, they do not look for bacteria or yeast, they look for signs of infection in the urine. Signs of infection in this case are increased leukocytes, blood, pain and frequency. If you have these, front line defense is antibiotics.
When I get tested for a UTI, I get a culture every single time. And they look for the bacteria. I have white cells, a couple of red cells usually, and high nitrites. I do not have burning or frequency. A UTI actually gives me retention. My symptoms, believe it or not, is yelling at my children, and a dull ache in my right kidney, and barely peeing so I get sort of bloated. If I have to go to a new doctor they say that I can't have a UTI without burning and frequency. I say, "test me." Surprise, suprise, I have an infection. And when you get a pap smear, they test for yeast. And I've never had it show up on my pap smear. And for the years that I was on bcp, which was many, I never had a yeast infection (and that was when I was seeing a nutritionist for yeast and went on the 18 month yeast connection diet, which did nothing for my cholesterol, which is why she had me on it, everybody just kept telling me I looked really unhealthy). I never had thrush, and none of my kids ever had thrush. I had a yeast infection once (in the spring) and went to the doctor afterwards, and he tested and said it was clear. The organisms that grow in my urine are Klebsiella, E. Coli, and Cytrobacter. I have been to 5 urologists, 1that specialized in women (which is hard to find). I have had a CT scan of my kidneys, 3 cystoscopies, an IVP, and a cystogram (bladder muscle test). The test strips that I have for my UTIs test for everything the doctors test for, including PH, which is always normal, even when I have a UTI. I have read everything there is to read about UTIs.

I have never had restless leg syndrome or calf cramping (during pregnancy or otherwise). And I've been on Cal/Mag for the last year.


Quote:
KJ, you almost certainly have a yeast issue. It is quite typical for reactions to become worse with each subsequent child, with no intervention such as antibiotics whatsoever, just pregnancy itself. Pregnancy allows the perfect situation for yeast overgrowth, hence "third trimester thrush" and UTIs of pregnancy. It likes the progesterone, and the low alkaline reserves. (the Pill also causes the same situation) Unfortunately, the abx given for that only exacerbate the problem (and if you didn't have thrush before your abx, you do now, eh? don't they hand out thrush cream with the abx these days?). People get a false sense of security when their "vaginal thrush is cleared". This means nuthin'. It just means the overgrowth in the vagina is under control for the time being.

KJ, I wonder if you read some of my more lengthy posts with your question of what might have caused the last child to get reactive. Cos I've kinda been explaining that in great detail on this thread. I don't think yeast causes everything. There are so many issues today and this is just one of them. Birth and yeast issues go together like peas and carrots these days. But when I see a pattern in a mother/child dyad, I have to speak out. The yeast pattern yells loud and clear, and has become rather predictable. So I think that nutritional status no doubt played a part in the pH crisis and other building issues creating this problem in yourself and your child. But what you are left with is the yeast havok, which is going to, or already has, wreaked much havok via your gut.
Suppose it is yeast, then what would I do to cure it (besides probiotics and enzymes that I already do). And if tests are showing that I'm clear, and I have no symptoms, then how would I know if I'm cured? I'm not being sarcastic, in case it sounds like I am. I really want to know because doctors have told me repeatedly that they're surprised that I don't get yeast infections (or have yeast overgrowth) considering the amount of abx I'm on (that's physicians and naturopaths and urologists). The naturopath couldn't find any cause for the UTIs. She thought the marshmallow root tea would cure me (which tasted gross but didn't help the UTIs).

And are you saying that my kids have a yeast issue too? And how would I know that, symptomatically?

Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
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I do not have burning or frequency. A UTI actually gives me retention. My symptoms, believe it or not, is yelling at my children, and a dull ache in my right kidney, and barely peeing so I get sort of bloated. If I have to go to a new doctor they say that I can't have a UTI without burning and frequency. I say, "test me." Surprise, suprise, I have an infection.
That's really interesting Kathy. I've had one UTI in my life, as far as I know. The ONLY symptom I had was that my urine smelled a little strong, and I felt kind of fatigued. The doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong with me, then finally did a urine culture and said it was a UTI. They kept asking if I was sure I wasn't urinating more frequently (I said no- less, if anything), or having burning or anything. I said nope, none of the classic UTI symptoms. They put me on 2 or 3 rounds of abx, and the "infection" never went away. They finally sent me for an IVP, but it must have cleared by then because they found nothing. But those doctors told me that it must have been a kidney infection, not a UTI, because of the symptoms that I had, and because the abx did nothing for it. weird...

I've also never had any outward signs of yeast. I think I've had maybe one yeast infection ever, and that was 10+ years ago.

So hard to figure this stuff out... I just wish there were more reliable tests that could tell us for sure that we do/don't have yeast, etc. Then I would be much less hesitant to put all these harsh yeast killers into my body.

Mom to DD1 (10/07) and DD2 (3/11)
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#259 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 12:02 AM
 
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Btw, did folks know (I didn't) that "they" are marketing probiotically active organisms which are genetically modified strains???!!

And here are the pharmaceutical methods of making the marketed probiotics survive the stomach acids:

Some examples of substances which may serve as pharmaceuticallytableting agents, stabilisers, anti-oxidants and preservatives can also be present. acceptable carriers are sugars such as lactose, glucose and sucrose, starches such as corn starch and po- tato starch, gums, cellulose and its derivatives such as sodium carboxymethylcellulose, ethylcellulose, cellulose acetate, powdered tragacanth, malt, gelatine, talc, silica, stearic acid, magnesium stearate, calcium sulfate, vegetable oils such as peanut oil, cottonseed oil, sesame oil, olive oil, corn oil and oil of theobroma, polyois such as propylene glycol, glycerine, sorbitol, mannitol, and polyethylene glycol, agar, alginic acid, pyrogen free wa- ter, isotonic saline and phosphate buffer solutions, as well as other non-toxic compatible substances used in pharmaceutical formulations. Wetting agents and lubricants such as sodium lauryl sulfate, as well as colouring agents, flavouring agents, excipients,
As mentioned above, it may be desirable to provide the medicament and the probiotically active organism in the form of other oral dosage forms such as solid forms including cap- sules, tablets, granules, bulk powders or in a dried form, such as a freeze-dried or spray- dried form, or as a spore form for organisms which form spores. A review of conventional formulation techniques can be found in e. g."The Theory and Practice of Industrial Phar- macy" (Ed. Lachman L. et al, 1986) or Laulund (1994). Thus, the tablets may be prepared by methods known in the art and can be compressed, enterically coated, sugar coated, film coated or multiply compressed, containing suitable binders, lubricants, diluents, dis- integrating agents, colouring agents, flouring agents, flow-inducing agents and melting agents. Optionally, the medicament and the probiotically active organism may be mixed and a tablet may be prepared by direct compression of such a mixture.



[SCARY STUFF, I don't think we'll try much in the way of enteric coated probiotics!!!]
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?...9&DISPLAY=DESC


kjbrown, do you take any antacids? I just happened upon (the above) study which indicates that altering the ph of the stomach, increases pathogenic bacterial overgrowth in the gut. Perhaps, this overgrowth occurs in the urinary tract also?




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I'll go through your post like this as it is easier. I hope you don't mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjbrown92 View Post
When I get tested for a UTI, I get a culture every single time. And they look for the bacteria. I have white cells, a couple of red cells usually, and high nitrites. I do not have burning or frequency. A UTI actually gives me retention. My symptoms, believe it or not, is yelling at my children, and a dull ache in my right kidney, and barely peeing so I get sort of bloated. If I have to go to a new doctor they say that I can't have a UTI without burning and frequency. I say, "test me." Surprise, suprise, I have an infection.
Retention, kidney pain, back pain, no bladder symptoms... have you had your kidneys tested? The kidneys are not only a pH buffer, they are the blood pressure and water buffers. When the kidneys are stressed, you retain water and the blood pressure gets messed up. How is your blood pressure?

Although they can culture bacteria, it doesn't rule out yeast, either in the kidneys, the ureter and urethra, or bladder. Esp as antibiotics for two solid years has only served to keep your UTIs chronic. As mentioned, yeast helps the bad bacteria grow. There are many ways, including altering the pH, that yeast can cause UTIs, including bacterial UTIs.

Quote:
And when you get a pap smear, they test for yeast. And I've never had it show up on my pap smear. And for the years that I was on bcp, which was many, I never had a yeast infection (and that was when I was seeing a nutritionist for yeast and went on the 18 month yeast connection diet, which did nothing for my cholesterol, which is why she had me on it, everybody just kept telling me I looked really unhealthy). I never had thrush, and none of my kids ever had thrush. I had a yeast infection once (in the spring) and went to the doctor afterwards, and he tested and said it was clear. The organisms that grow in my urine are Klebsiella, E. Coli, and Cytrobacter. I have been to 5 urologists, 1that specialized in women (which is hard to find). I have had a CT scan of my kidneys, 3 cystoscopies, an IVP, and a cystogram (bladder muscle test). The test strips that I have for my UTIs test for everything the doctors test for, including PH, which is always normal, even when I have a UTI. I have read everything there is to read about UTIs.

I have never had restless leg syndrome or calf cramping (during pregnancy or otherwise). And I've been on Cal/Mag for the last year.

Suppose it is yeast, then what would I do to cure it (besides probiotics and enzymes that I already do). And if tests are showing that I'm clear, and I have no symptoms, then how would I know if I'm cured? I'm not being sarcastic, in case it sounds like I am. I really want to know because doctors have told me repeatedly that they're surprised that I don't get yeast infections (or have yeast overgrowth) considering the amount of abx I'm on (that's physicians and naturopaths and urologists). The naturopath couldn't find any cause for the UTIs. She thought the marshmallow root tea would cure me (which tasted gross but didn't help the UTIs).

And are you saying that my kids have a yeast issue too? And how would I know that, symptomatically?
you mention you've had a yeast infection. I have never had thrush or a yeast infection that I know of, but I have suffered yeast for almost 20 years (I didn't know this back then of course). You actually have more symptoms of yeast than me! However, the biggest tip off for me isn't just the reactions, the UTIs, your child's health, thrush or any of that, it is the fact that you have been on antibiotics every day for years! I nearly choked on my pear juice when I read that. I didn't think they still did that to non-fatal issues anymore. There is almost no way, unless you had the immunity of Jesus Christ himself, that yeast isn't out of control in you. Nor would you have much beneficial bacteria left. You must feel lousy, so so lousy :. UNLESS you are on antifungal medication also? You didn't mention that.

The other reason I think it could be yeast is because you've tried everything else. Yeast can be extraordinarily hard to eradicate, and a diet ain't gonna do it. In my opinion.

I wrote what I've been doing, but it is a summary (didn't include the special calcium I'm on or other supps, just the yeast fighting protocol), and I'll be doing a formal one for others to follow at some stage when I get the time. You can see that post here: post #215

The beauty of this is that whether or not it is yeast, parasites, a virus, bacteria, leaky gut, acidosis/alkalosis, all of the above or more, if you start to remove the layers, you give the body a chance to do the rest itself. If you take a "killer", whatever is infecting will die, regardless of what it is. A good all round killer is:

black walnut hull tincture
cloves
wormwood

Those three, as a synergistic blend, kill not only viruses and bacteria and yeast, but they kill parasites and the eggs, and the larval stages. Peroxide or other oxygen treatment will also do that.

Flood your body with oxygen - Ed McCabe

I use a skin product called Bio T and it contains those things and some minerals and it removes warts and moles. It is amazing to watch it happen, the mole just starts to die and simply falls off!

Not many people know that moles are actually microorganisms, pathogens that have taken up residence and built a little fort in your skin, overproducing melanin (brown pigment) and skin. Given the right opportunity, they cause the cancer that these organisms cause inside the body - right on your skin, such as melanomas. Treatment of moles this way cures skin cancer.

This stuff works internally just as well.

Just as a quick note, I know I just divulged my belief on cancer being microorganisms. I'd like to quickly draw your attention to the latest cervical cancer "immunisation" as one piece of evidence for that.

What do we immunise for? Viruses and bacteria. What does the cervical cancer vaccine work on? HPV (human papilloma virus - warts). Yet they are calling it the CANCER vaccine. Putting two and two together yet?

They KNOW what causes cancer. They just won't be blunt about it yet cos there's too much money in "cancer research" and too many jobs at stake. Scurvy used to kill people. Then they learned citrus fruit prevented it, and cured it - simple vitamin C deficiency. Cancer is JUST as simple, don't be fooled by their crap.

Anyway, pathogens are a leading cause of disease and death today. Their increase has meant an overall increase in ill health in our culture. I have to run again, babe just woke in his sling here. But try a yeast kill, and see if you don't knock it on the head. At the very least, you should be on nystatin while on abx, to keep the yeast from going "wOOOT!" at having the place all to themselves.

eta - i know i missed some points, i'll try to get to them later.

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#262 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I shall come back in fits and starts... family... you know how it is.

Quote:
The test strips that I have for my UTIs test for everything the doctors test for, including PH, which is always normal, even when I have a UTI.
This is not a good method. I'll show you how to do it so you can see what reserves you have.

Optimal pH for saliva is 6.4 to 6.8 upon arising in the morning before food. A reading lower than 6.4 is indicative of insufficient alkaline reserves. After eating, the saliva pH should rise to 7.8 or higher.

For two days eat a lot of ash producing foods such as meat, grains and other things on the "acid" side of those pH food charts (like this one). Try to limit the alkaline foods. This is the fun part cos you get to gorge on crap food. CAUTION, if you are very ill, you already know you are low on alkalising minerals, I suggest you avoid this test and start treatment. This test puts stress on the body, stress that some cannot afford to take. If you really aren't sure, test away.

On the third morning, before food etc, test your urine pH. Write it down.

Results:


5.5-5.8 means your alkalising mineral reserve is adequate. It managed to buffer the acid waste without resorting to anything drastic.

6.0-6.6 is not good. It's also not too terrible.

6.8-8.0 It indicates that your supply of available alkaline reserve is virtually depleted. When the body is overwhelmed with acid and protein, the kidneys have a lot of acid to handle. They must generate greater quantities of ammonia to handle the greater quantities of acid and protein. Instead of minerals neutralizing the acid from dietary protein, ammonia is doing the job.

If you would like to do this, we can see if the problem is in your kidneys, due to the work load it has to handle. This is the kind of thing you won't see in a scan, or in a regular, random test. If you have mineral depletion, follow the alkaline food list as closely as you can, and take natural mineral supps, such as food and herbs. I take this for calcium: organic sea vegetable Lithothamnium calcareum.

Gotta run again...

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#263 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 10:05 AM
 
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I'll go through your post like this as it is easier. I hope you don't mind.
Retention, kidney pain, back pain, no bladder symptoms... have you had your kidneys tested? The kidneys are not only a pH buffer, they are the blood pressure and water buffers. When the kidneys are stressed, you retain water and the blood pressure gets messed up. How is your blood pressure?
My blood pressure is normal (usually about 110/60 sometimes 95/60). I've had an IVP and CT scan on my kidneys, and they are fine. I got UTIs every 6 months at first, then then every 4 months, then every 2 months, then I couldn't go a week off antibiotics without getting another one. They had me catheterizing myself twice a day (which didn't help at all). And tried to do muscle retraining with me (sort of reverse Kiegels). This all started 1 month after a colonoscopy, and about 2 weeks after my DS was weaned (where I'd been off dairy during all of the breastfeeding with him). DH thought that DS "broke me" so he said "let's have another one and that will fix you". So I got pregnant, had 2 UTIs right at the very beginning then nothing the rest of the pregnancy and my back pain went away (I thought it was a function of the hormones somehow). About 2 months after I had DD (by c-section), I got the UTIs back, same pattern, every 4 months, every 3 months, etc. until 3 days after I was off the antibiotics, I'd have another infection. So they put me on Augmentin for 6 months. Went off for 3 days, got another infection. DD is 3.5. It's a once a day, low dose abx. Every day I take probiotics, 4 capsules of high potency fish oil, and enzymes.

So if I'm reading you right, do I need to put my 2 food-intolerant kids on this all this as well?

So do I do the "anti-yeast" diet as well? (I'm already off yeast, gluten, dairy, soy, and a bunch of other things).

Can you give me dosing for (adult/8yo/3yo):
black walnut hull tincture
wormwood
cloves
L. Rhamnosus
Threelac (3 sachets a day adult?)
Oxygen Elements
Nilstat
Candex

Genova Diagnostics (www.gdx.com) does yeast testing through stool samples.

When I went to the (highly recommended) naturopath I asked her about yeast, since when I was 21 I had done that yeast connection diet for 18 months and every capsule the nutritionist had thrown at me, and it had done nothing for me, and the naturopath (this was just this past spring) said I didn't have any problem with yeast. I guess it's the who do I trust thing.

Since I didn't get the first UTI until a month after the colonoscopy, I've been blaming the colonoscopy all this time. Though is it possible that the cleansing that you do for the colonoscopy upsets your gut flora so much, that it could actually be the cause?

Sorry to derail. Should we start a whole new thread?

Kathy, mother of 3, wife of 1. My new recipe blog: www.kathysrecipebox.wordpress.com (no longer searchable by allergen, but at least it doesn't have a virus!)
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#264 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 01:20 PM
 
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I just wanted to mention really quickly that I can attest to the fact, too, that you can have a _severe_ systemic yeast infection and _NOT_ have any typical yeast signs.

Really, stressing it again, just because there's no typical red flags does not mean you don't have a yeast issue. I am the living (starting to live more and more again by getting rid of the yeast!) example of it!
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#265 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 01:31 PM
 
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Nanethiel, How is the program going?
So sorry, Chlobo - I just found this question!

It's going well. Up and down sometimes like a roller coaster. But definitely getting better and better _overall_.

I have to say, I am still amazed and terrified at the same time how _much_ yeast overgrowth can affect your body. On _ALL_ levels! Really let that sink in. All levels of your being. It's nuts - and at the same time I am so grateful to have found out about this. And really, thanks, Calm, FF, and others. What you're/we're doing here is wonderful.

As for "the plan":

Aqua Flora (3 month homeopathic Yeast Program)
Oxygen Elements (both myself and son)
Candex
Kirkman Probiotics (son can't tolerate those unfortunately or he'd be taking them, too)
Epsom Salt Baths (daily, both myself and son)

And then there's stuff that I take to help heal my gut lining, of course, and to inhibit allergic responses.. and to help with toxins being flushed out of my body. But this/above is the specific Yeast Plan!

I would love to get on ThreeLac, but I'm really not sure about the Casein in it. Sigh. Son used to react to other milk derived probiotics in the past.

Hope everybody else is doing well and getting somewhere!
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#266 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 02:18 PM
 
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The beauty of this is that whether or not it is yeast, parasites, a virus, bacteria, leaky gut, acidosis/alkalosis, all of the above or more, if you start to remove the layers, you give the body a chance to do the rest itself. If you take a "killer", whatever is infecting will die, regardless of what it is. A good all round killer is:

black walnut hull tincture
cloves
wormwood

Those three, as a synergistic blend, kill not only viruses and bacteria and yeast, but they kill parasites and the eggs, and the larval stages. Peroxide or other oxygen treatment will also do that.
Calm- is this treatment good while BFing? I posted in the Healing the Gut thread (post #389) what my ND has given me for adrenals, enzymes, and possible parasite infection... but I haven't gotten many responses about it. My ameba histolytica saliva test came back equivocal, and she said she treats that as a positive result. She also said that standard treatments aren't recommended while BFing, but that she's used an EO (ingested) treatment that has about a 50/50 success rate. I said ok... until she mixed the EO's and I saw 2 things that I'm pretty positive that DD will react to. So now I'm not comfortable starting that treatment, especially since I don't even know for sure that I have parasites. I also did a stool test, and she told me that I don't have a yeast problem.

Anyway.... maybe a good, all-round killer like that one would be a good idea for me? Would you recommend that one, or the oxygen treatment, or...? I have no idea even where to find these things. And dosages?

Mom to DD1 (10/07) and DD2 (3/11)
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#267 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 02:46 PM
 
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Dissenting about killing off, rather than rebalancing the gut with whole foods. But, gotta come back later.

Check out the "pinworm" thread (in TF) I believe. The argument is that the *healing* is happening when the "invaders" (a sorta human-centric label) are present.


When we disrupt with Nystatin (although derived artificially from a bacteria) we are synthetically attacking mother nature. That seems egocentric from a natural pov. ie. mainstream and allopathic and leads to a cascade of further disruption to nature's path or rebalancing the gut, no differently than cutting babies out of uteruses.

Btw, there is documentation about antitumor effects of probiotics. We are messing with stuff we do not fully grasp. Symptomatic reactionary "killing" is a cultural belief which I do not embrace, whether pre-emptively, or as "revenge" against the "invader". We are not separate from the microflora of our gut...


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#268 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 03:37 PM
 
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Dissenting about killing off, rather than rebalancing the gut with whole foods. But, gotta come back later.

Check out the "pinworm" thread (in TF) I believe. The argument is that the *healing* is happening when the "invaders" (a sorta human-centric label) are present.


When we disrupt with Nystatin (although derived artificially from a bacteria) we are synthetically attacking mother nature. That seems egocentric from a natural pov. ie. mainstream and allopathic and leads to a cascade of further disruption to nature's path or rebalancing the gut, no differently than cutting babies out of uteruses.

Btw, there is documentation about antitumor effects of probiotics. We are messing with stuff we do not fully grasp. Symptomatic reactionary "killing" is a cultural belief which I do not embrace, whether pre-emptively, or as "revenge" against the "invader". We are not separate from the microflora of our gut...


Pat
In an ideal world I'd completely agree with you. But the situation we have now is one where peoples bodies have been drawn so far out of whack with antibiotics, birth control pills, tylenol/advil, steroids, and other unnatural 'treatments' that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to reverse and heal that damage by way of kefir. Not always, but quite often. Unfortunately.

ETA: Traditional cultures have long used natural ways of dealing with parasites, bacteria, etc. Okay, not Nystatin, but 'killers' of unwanted organisms that are disrupting the balance nonetheless. Some examples are naturally occurring enzymes (papaya for parasite cleanses), Olive Leaf, Tea Tree, Grapefruit seed, Berberines found in plants such as Oregon Grape Root, volatile oils. There are too many herbs to name that have antimicrobial, anti-parasitic and anti-viral properties The list goes on and on really.
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#269 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 09:16 PM
 
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while that is true it was often part of their tradition. I have to say I'm in the parasites are there for a reason camp as stated both in this thread and over there. IT's a different way to think about it and most *can't* due to their current diets. However there are many traditional cultures that intentionally "infect" themselves with parasites TO cleanse. The idea is that they only become pathogenic in a truly unbalanced body and that wasn't generally seen in those traditional indigenous tribes. Their diets were very "clean" so to speak (no additives, GMO's, artificial colors, fillers etc.) and they weren't medicated 6 ways from Sunday so the concerns of those peoples are not the concerns of the common people today.

I would say it would be very hard to view this as a possibility once you've hit the pathogenic state, but really it's something quite valid to keep tucked in the back of your head. You CAN get there if that's where you chose to go.
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#270 of 1043 Old 10-19-2008, 09:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WuWei View Post
Dissenting about killing off, rather than rebalancing the gut with whole foods. But, gotta come back later.

Check out the "pinworm" thread (in TF) I believe. The argument is that the *healing* is happening when the "invaders" (a sorta human-centric label) are present.


When we disrupt with Nystatin (although derived artificially from a bacteria) we are synthetically attacking mother nature. That seems egocentric from a natural pov. ie. mainstream and allopathic and leads to a cascade of further disruption to nature's path or rebalancing the gut, no differently than cutting babies out of uteruses.

Btw, there is documentation about antitumor effects of probiotics. We are messing with stuff we do not fully grasp. Symptomatic reactionary "killing" is a cultural belief which I do not embrace, whether pre-emptively, or as "revenge" against the "invader". We are not separate from the microflora of our gut...


Pat
I couldn't agree more. Just like inflammation-everyone wants an anti-inflammatory when it happens, but it's the process of healing and by taking that anti-inflammatory you are thwarting the body's natural healing process.

However what I struggle with is how to reconcile that with *this* generation. I personally didn't have any disruption in pg or childbirth (or after) but my kids were highly reactive and one was FTT and losing the battle. I feel much more strongly that it was a nutritional issue and that given the right nutrients the body will self right. But when you have a kiddo as many here do that is losing the battle....it's a rough place. I chose not to go the allopathic route, and we were successful....she's a happy thriving 4 year old now with some residual issues but I don't worry about her anymore. We used nutrition (food and supplements) and energy medicine (homeopathy and flowers) as well as structural work. But those supplements were necessary based on testing and her condition. It wasn't natural, it wasn't my idea of perfect, but given the situation it was the lesser of two evils. Now that we have a baseline if we ever had another issue I would do things very differently and respect her body's signals....but it wasn't an option when it was touch and go-ya know?
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