Please talk me through this...diarrhea, probiotics, etc - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 7 Old 08-29-2008, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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First of all, let me just say my children will never ever have antibiotics ever again unless they are truly used in a life-saving manner. Isn't that what they are supposed to be for? Like, people in the hospital, with bacterial infections that aren't clearing on their own, etc, etc????

A brief history: My oldest child (9) had a lot of intestinal problems as a baby/toddler which I believe were prompted by the shot of abx I had in labor. Things eventually got better with the help of SCD and only SCD-legal probiotics (meaning a small dose and only the strain L. acidophilus). At the age of 4, we slowly started to introduce other foods, he did well, continued to grow, etc. But slowly over time, I just knew that he was not okay with all foods. We limited most grains to sprouted or soaked, but still grains I think are a trigger for him.

My second son, (now 4), was completely different. Because I was now smart, had been working on healing my own gut, etc, I ate no sugar, limited grains, what grains I did eat were usually sprouted, and took probiotics all throughout my pregnancy. He had no intestinal problems at all. Once he transitioned to eating solids and began having solid poops, he always had one perfectly formed poop, at almost the same time every single day of his life. He does have a peanut allergy, though, so I look back and wonder if maybe there could have been something.

So, we are all doing well, right?? Then I fell prey to fear and gave my kids antibiotics for strep throat/scarlatina, even after they were starting to get better. I wish I had listened to myself, but I didn't, and now this is where we are.

I think because they were already getting better, their bodies didn't need the abx, and so it was even harder on them, knocking out all the good bugs in their gut. This was almost 7 months ago and I am still trying to straighten it out. I went to a holistic ped who is a DAN doctor, and he said to give them Klaire Ther-Biotic Complete and this Candida/Yeast herbal supplement that he formulated, each three times a day. I had a hard time starting the probiotics. At first, they seemed to make it worse (complaining of tummyaches, looser stools, etc). I slowly increased and worked my way up to three times a day. They seem to be slowly helping, though still there are occasional times when one or both will say their tummy hurts, and it is usually right after the probiotics. Also, there are more and more formed stools, but still there are loose ones, or ones that come out formed and then separate when they hit the water.

I am most worried right now about my 9 year old. He had complete diarrhea and a slight fever on Monday, then was better. Now it's Friday, and this morning he had complete D again, didn't even make it to the toilet completely in time. He has had both formed and less formed stools throughout this week, in between, but none that were diarrhea.

I did not try the herbal supplement because it has some strong herbs in it like Pau d'Arco, and balck walnut hulls, and others, and I read that Susun Weed thread saying Pau d"Arco is strong and kills good bugs too. This was my feeling back then, so I didn't give it, but now maybe I actually need to give it, because maybe things have gotten out of whack and the bad bugs might have taken over.

We are not eating dairy right now, because I don't think either of them do well with it, and I am actually allergic to dairy. But maybe I need to try making SCD yogurt again.

I don't know what to do. If anyone has read this far, thank you, thank you, thank you. Here are my ideas, can you please tell me what you think:

1) Continue pushing forward with the three times a day Klaire probiotic (25 billion) and just see what happens. OR go ahead and try the herbal supplement too.

2) The SCD theory would say that bifidus bacteria can actually overgrow, (this is what Elaine Gottschall would have said, I was on a list with her years ago when we first did SCD,a dn she was so amazing, caring, and giving), so maybe I need to change probiotics. Or stop giving it so often. Maybe I am actually giving too much? They are getting 25 billion three times a day right now.

3) Go back to our homeopathic MD and ask for his advice, even though I don't really have the greatest relationship with him. (He was helping us when we had strep, and told me NOT to do the abx, but I got scared after taking them to the family doctor.) He is just very "do what I say and don't ask me questions". I want to pay him for his time and pick his brain, because he is very knowledgeable, but he hasn't always been right, and I like to have choices.

4) Try something like ThreeLac. Or, Klaire makes one with the S. boulardii, which actually he tested at the chiropractor (muscle testing) that it was good for him. ANd he tested that the Klaire Ther Biotic COmplete was not good for him. (Whereas my 4 yr old was the opposite. The Ther Biotic Complete was good for him, but the other wasn't.) I was just hesitant because that seems kind of strong, not made for kids, I don't know if it is okay for a 9 yr old.

Just feeling a little overwhelmed right now, and worried about my 9 yr old having total D again this morning.

I will add that I only recently started him on the 3x/day Klaire, so that's why I am wondering if maybe it's just not good for him.

I hear that for some people, the probiotics actually make them have more loose stool, so why is that? Is it that stuff is clearing out? Or that it's the wrong thing for their body?

Please help!

Many, many thanks!
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#2 of 7 Old 08-30-2008, 01:42 AM
 
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I'm not sure I will have many answers for you, it's really hard I know!!

I truly think glutamine and/or homemade bone broths (which have that amino acid also) are essential for gut healing.

You may have some food sensitivities which are also causing the loose stool. My DS eats a lot of grains, beans and potatoes with perfect stools, but still any fruit other than berries, banana, pear or watermelon shifts his gut flora, he is very sensitive to fructose.

Re: Bifidobacterium and Gottschall

I don't know for sure. I have never seen references for her offhanded comment on a listserve and that really bothers me. Bifido is supposed to number 10x more than lactobacillus in an adult and much more in a child, all the way down to an infant over 90%.

Have you tried digestive enzymes between meals?
http://www.enzymestuff.com/conditionbacteria.htm

In our experience, "cleaning out" from probiotics wasn't ongoing, it would last a few days when starting or stepping up dosages. Constant D is either food reactions or a serious yeast/bacterial problem that are calling for more probiotics than the capsule is providing. Karen DeFelice of the enzymestuff website said her son's bacterial problem was only touched by several Culturelle/day, way above box recommendations, until she used colloidal silver for 10 days. S. Boulardii or homemade kefir which also contains beneficial yeasts might be helpful.
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#3 of 7 Old 08-31-2008, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks so much for replying! About the bifido, when we did the SCD (this was several years ago), Elaine always said that probiotics are good, but that if you aren't starving out the bad dugs, that even the good probiotics can feed the bad bugs. She also said that even bifido bacteria can overgrow. She recommended L acidophilus only, with absolutely no additives like FOS or inulin, because, in her opinion, even a small amount of disaccharides would continue to feed the bad bugs.

Here is a link:
http://www.pecanbread.com/new/probiotics1.html

Scroll down, where Elaine recommends taking a much smaller dose than what we are giving now, just like 2-3 billion, up to 9 billion only. Then, all the way at the bottom, a quote about bifidus bacteria, though not by Elaine, this is what she used to say.

When I was on that list, and this was 8 years ago, there were many people (adults with various forms of IBD) who would report having used various probiotics (other than staright L acidophilus) that sent them into flares. Of course, you have to acknolwedge that new information is becoming available all the time. And this was a long time ago.

I'm just not sure what to do. He has continued to have diarrhea for a couple fo days now, whereas before he was not having diarrhea (turn the water brown diarrhea). It's only been about 2 times a day, so I don't think he's dehydrated or anything, but this is NOT normal. I don't know if it could be from too mcuh probiotics or if it's that things have gotten worse. I did add gluten back in this past week. I had taken it out for about a month or so. He didn't have an immediate reaction, in fact he had several very formed stools this week, in between having diarrhea one week ago.

The other thing that happened this week is that I discovered it was the kids' multivitamin that I believe was causing him to be wet at night. He has been dry for several days now, after cutting it out.

I do have some glutamine that I am going to start now, though not sure how much to give. I can google it.

Thank you!
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#4 of 7 Old 08-31-2008, 08:19 AM
 
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This is just my own personal experience.

We had to start slow with the probiotics and slowly build up.

We had to take a break from anything with too much fiber for a while.
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#5 of 7 Old 08-31-2008, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nichole View Post
This is just my own personal experience.

We had to start slow with the probiotics and slowly build up.

We had to take a break from anything with too much fiber for a while.
Thanks Nichole! What did you wind up building up to? Meaning, what amount of probiotics?
Thanks!
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#6 of 7 Old 08-31-2008, 07:23 PM
 
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Well it seems to me that you want bifido to overgrow to crowd out the bad?! I don't know, I'd still like to see studies b/c the medical literature supports FOS and bifido supplements.

Personally and with DS, bifidobacterium and a huge amount of probiotics was essential. I did FOS for me (inulin) and that was hard to get used to (gas but not painful) but then it really helped. Who knows, maybe it depends on which kinds of bad guys you have in your gut. For me I didn't really build up to high probiotics, when I started homemade kefir it was a tremendous help. I guess I had a high tolerance for die off, was taking massive vit. C or just masochistic.
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#7 of 7 Old 08-31-2008, 09:22 PM
 
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I gave them maybe 1/4 dose at first, then moved up to 1/2 dose. Now they take the full dose. I just ordered some new stuff for me. It is just the vitamin shoppe brand. When I first get it, I will just take the recommended dose, but maybe double up if I eat too much sugar.

I really don't know much about which strands to take. I'm just flying blind as far as that goes.
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