Cavities and Food Allergies in a Vegetarian (Dairy/Soy Allergic) 2 yo - WAP? Cell Salts? Remineralization? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 30 Old 11-13-2010, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm really hoping someone can help. DD has pretty severe cavities on her upper front teeth. Ped of course has blamed night nursing. DD is soy and dairy (pasteurized, we haven't tried raw yet) allergic, and who knows if there are others that we haven't identified. She has so far eaten a vegetarian diet. She still BF a fair amount.

 

We are really hesitant to allow dental work to be done on her at this point. There is NO way she would allow work to be done, so therefore would have to undergo general anesthesia. We want to try to avoid that if at all possible.

 

From what I've read here it seems that some people have halted or reversed decay using the CLO, cell salts, WAP diet... DH and I are trying to weigh these things, as we take the decision to feed DD meat very seriously. We are also concerned because of her dairy allergy, though I've read that some who are allergic can tolerate raw dairy. 

 

I guess what we're asking is how many people here have been successful in halting or remineralizing decay? Have any been successful without adding meat and bone broth into the diet? 

 

How exactly do cell salts work, which ones should we use, and at what dose?

 

What is the role of food allergies in dental decay? Is there a link? 

 

Is the xylitol generally helpful or not? I see both sides being argued. 

 

Should we be using tooth soap or a flouride-free toothpaste? She is AWFUL about brushing her teeth.

 

We are willing to take the plunge and commit to a trial of the WAP diet, but I guess we're just looking for some more encouragement, words of wisdom, or something....

 

 

 

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#2 of 30 Old 11-15-2010, 02:40 PM
 
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I'm so subbing! You could have been writing about my ds, except he's no vegetarian. I just found this forum today, so I'm not familiar with your abbreviations CLO and WPA, but I'm going to try to find more info. Can't wait to read your responses.


FAs, co-sleeping, babywearing, extended nursing, positive parenting, homeschooler

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#3 of 30 Old 11-17-2010, 03:47 PM
 
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the basic link between allergies and tooth health is that if you have gut damage and aren't absorbing and utilizing nutrients well your teeth (and many other things) can suffer.  So yes, there's a pretty direct correlation.

 

I'd guess the decay was in part due to nursing-but not because nursing causes decay.  If her maxillary frenulum is tight then it creates pockets that hold the milk against the teeth which can over time create decay.  Dentists don't generally understand this so while they are right, they can't back it up.  A tight maxillary frenulum can be dealt with, but it's not going to change what's already happened.  It can prevent further damage.

 

there are clearly multiple ways to address this, but I prefer optimizing nutrition and using the salts because that's what I see work.  The salts are nutritional and work to normalize cellular function.  They bypass digestion and help the body better access what it needs to heal.  Calc fluor, calc phos and silica are the salts you'd use. 

 

I don't advocate fluoride in a toothpaste.  Best of luck!

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the basic link between allergies and tooth health is that if you have gut damage and aren't absorbing and utilizing nutrients well your teeth (and many other things) can suffer.  So yes, there's a pretty direct correlation.

 

I'd guess the decay was in part due to nursing-but not because nursing causes decay.  If her maxillary frenulum is tight then it creates pockets that hold the milk against the teeth which can over time create decay.  Dentists don't generally understand this so while they are right, they can't back it up.  A tight maxillary frenulum can be dealt with, but it's not going to change what's already happened.  It can prevent further damage.

 

there are clearly multiple ways to address this, but I prefer optimizing nutrition and using the salts because that's what I see work.  The salts are nutritional and work to normalize cellular function.  They bypass digestion and help the body better access what it needs to heal.  Calc fluor, calc phos and silica are the salts you'd use. 

 

I don't advocate fluoride in a toothpaste.  Best of luck!


Thank you so much for your feedback. I've ordered the cell salts you recommended. How many times a day should we be giving them to her? 

 

Is there a method of testing and dealing with allergies that you see as more effective than others? NAET therapy?

 

How would you deal with a tight maxillary frenulum? Would it be reasonable to think I could avoid night weaning and still help heal her teeth?

 

Would you recommend digestive enzymes?

 

Would you recommend adding the grass-fed meats, raw dairy, and seafood into her diet? Or would the CLO, cell salts, and enzymes be effective alone? Basically, do you believe the WAP diet could help her?

 

Thanks again for your help. I feel sick that this could have been prevented. 

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#5 of 30 Old 11-18-2010, 01:12 PM
 
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the basic link between allergies and tooth health is that if you have gut damage and aren't absorbing and utilizing nutrients well your teeth (and many other things) can suffer.  So yes, there's a pretty direct correlation.

 

I'd guess the decay was in part due to nursing-but not because nursing causes decay.  If her maxillary frenulum is tight then it creates pockets that hold the milk against the teeth which can over time create decay.  Dentists don't generally understand this so while they are right, they can't back it up.  A tight maxillary frenulum can be dealt with, but it's not going to change what's already happened.  It can prevent further damage.

 

there are clearly multiple ways to address this, but I prefer optimizing nutrition and using the salts because that's what I see work.  The salts are nutritional and work to normalize cellular function.  They bypass digestion and help the body better access what it needs to heal.  Calc fluor, calc phos and silica are the salts you'd use. 

 

I don't advocate fluoride in a toothpaste.  Best of luck!


Thank you so much for your feedback. I've ordered the cell salts you recommended. How many times a day should we be giving them to her? 

 

Is there a method of testing and dealing with allergies that you see as more effective than others? NAET therapy?

 

How would you deal with a tight maxillary frenulum? Would it be reasonable to think I could avoid night weaning and still help heal her teeth?

 

Would you recommend digestive enzymes?

 

Would you recommend adding the grass-fed meats, raw dairy, and seafood into her diet? Or would the CLO, cell salts, and enzymes be effective alone? Basically, do you believe the WAP diet could help her?

 

Thanks again for your help. I feel sick that this could have been prevented. 



firstly, there is nothing you could have done to prevent this.  It's not as though you had information and chose not to act on it.  You did everything exactly as you should have, and now you are seeking out information because you need to.  That's the best we can do as parents.

 

For cell salts I often do 3-4 tabs 6-8 times a day when you are working to heal.

 

In terms of the maxillary frenulum, that would need an assessment by a competent professional.  Many people chose to surgically correct it.  I did.  I'm a homebirthing, non vaxxing, holistic parent whose kids have never had any medication ever.  However looking at the implications both with digestion, dental health and respiration I felt that it was the right thing to do.  It may not be a problem for you at all, but that's a potential reason for decay in just the front teeth related to nursing.  We didn't do it until my kids who needed it were 6 and 4 because that's when we found someone who could do it with a laser.  Here's who I ended up consulting with-there's a good amount of research on his site:  www.kiddsteeth.com

 

I also think it's important to realize there is no WAP diet.  There's a diet advocated by the WAPF which isn't the same thing as what WAP found.  The foundation was formed after his death and I dont' personally feel that what they are promoting is Price's findings.

 

I do believe that bone broths, grass fed meat and the like are health giving but I don't know that it's the only way to heal.  What Dr. Price did find was that adding simply CLO a bit of broth and possibly some raw butter changed things for people in the absence of other dietary modifications.  Granted I'd have to go back and review, but that's my recollection.

 

I do like digestive enzymes and think they are often very helpful.

 

For allergies I use nutritional intervention and homeopathy fairly successfully.  I have never used NAET, but many people find that it's helpful.

 

Mama...you are doing a GREAT job.  Just keep it up and put one foot in front of the other-a little bit of progress each day.

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#6 of 30 Old 11-18-2010, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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the basic link between allergies and tooth health is that if you have gut damage and aren't absorbing and utilizing nutrients well your teeth (and many other things) can suffer.  So yes, there's a pretty direct correlation.

 

I'd guess the decay was in part due to nursing-but not because nursing causes decay.  If her maxillary frenulum is tight then it creates pockets that hold the milk against the teeth which can over time create decay.  Dentists don't generally understand this so while they are right, they can't back it up.  A tight maxillary frenulum can be dealt with, but it's not going to change what's already happened.  It can prevent further damage.

 

there are clearly multiple ways to address this, but I prefer optimizing nutrition and using the salts because that's what I see work.  The salts are nutritional and work to normalize cellular function.  They bypass digestion and help the body better access what it needs to heal.  Calc fluor, calc phos and silica are the salts you'd use. 

 

I don't advocate fluoride in a toothpaste.  Best of luck!


Thank you so much for your feedback. I've ordered the cell salts you recommended. How many times a day should we be giving them to her? 

 

Is there a method of testing and dealing with allergies that you see as more effective than others? NAET therapy?

 

How would you deal with a tight maxillary frenulum? Would it be reasonable to think I could avoid night weaning and still help heal her teeth?

 

Would you recommend digestive enzymes?

 

Would you recommend adding the grass-fed meats, raw dairy, and seafood into her diet? Or would the CLO, cell salts, and enzymes be effective alone? Basically, do you believe the WAP diet could help her?

 

Thanks again for your help. I feel sick that this could have been prevented. 



firstly, there is nothing you could have done to prevent this.  It's not as though you had information and chose not to act on it.  You did everything exactly as you should have, and now you are seeking out information because you need to.  That's the best we can do as parents.

 

For cell salts I often do 3-4 tabs 6-8 times a day when you are working to heal.

 

In terms of the maxillary frenulum, that would need an assessment by a competent professional.  Many people chose to surgically correct it.  I did.  I'm a homebirthing, non vaxxing, holistic parent whose kids have never had any medication ever.  However looking at the implications both with digestion, dental health and respiration I felt that it was the right thing to do.  It may not be a problem for you at all, but that's a potential reason for decay in just the front teeth related to nursing.  We didn't do it until my kids who needed it were 6 and 4 because that's when we found someone who could do it with a laser.  Here's who I ended up consulting with-there's a good amount of research on his site:  www.kiddsteeth.com

 

I also think it's important to realize there is no WAP diet.  There's a diet advocated by the WAPF which isn't the same thing as what WAP found.  The foundation was formed after his death and I dont' personally feel that what they are promoting is Price's findings.

 

I do believe that bone broths, grass fed meat and the like are health giving but I don't know that it's the only way to heal.  What Dr. Price did find was that adding simply CLO a bit of broth and possibly some raw butter changed things for people in the absence of other dietary modifications.  Granted I'd have to go back and review, but that's my recollection.

 

I do like digestive enzymes and think they are often very helpful.

 

For allergies I use nutritional intervention and homeopathy fairly successfully.  I have never used NAET, but many people find that it's helpful.

 

Mama...you are doing a GREAT job.  Just keep it up and put one foot in front of the other-a little bit of progress each day.

Thank you for the encouragement and information. It infuriates me that no ped connected the dots between allergies and dental health. I'm even more angry at myself for not realizing it sooner. Oh well, hindsight... Thanks again. 
 

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#7 of 30 Old 11-18-2010, 05:00 PM
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I so understand.  My son had 6 teeth w/ cavities when he was 22 mos old - we almost lost 2 (they were capped).  He does have food allergies, and his allergy dr told me that food allergies can cause malabsorption issues.  that said, if anyone has a child w/ a lot of cavities, have their vitamin D levels checked pronto.  I had a lot of drs early on (when he was little) told me it was night nursing.  Made me so mad b/c my brother, sister, and I were all nursed in the night - no problems.  Anyway, my son has a vitamin D deficiency and so do I, and his current ped thinks this is the issue.  He wasn't able to absorb any calcium w/ levels as low as they were.  His and my levels were tested in the middle of summer a few years ago, and mine was 11, his was 8.  The range is 30-80, and you need at least a level of 20 to prevent rickets.  I am now PG and was researching how much vitamin D I could take.  I saw that vitamin D deficiency during PG can cause enamel issues in the baby.  I am definitely supplementing w/ the largest limit now and having my levels tested during PG.  His current ped (who thinks the nursing during the night blame game is horrible) also tested him for celiac which he was fine on.  So she really blames the vitamin D.  Getting out in the sun is not enough unless you live in Florida/very close to the equator.  There are so many factors that go into getting D from the sun - the angle of the sun, time of day, area of the US you live in.

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#8 of 30 Old 11-18-2010, 05:14 PM
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I would check out "Cure Tooth Decay" just to get the perspective.  I read it, and I'm glad I did.  I wasn't comfortable with all his suggestions, but I implemented many of the nutrient-rich foods in ways I am comfortable.  We have been dealing with tooth decay for a year now, and there has been very little progression of the decay since we started WAP.  I think there is no harm in learning and doing whatever you are comfortable with.  For vegetarians, he recommends raw and cooked eggs and wheat grass juice.  For the dairy allergic/intolerant, he recommends ghee, as it contains no lactose or milk protein.  You may also consider fish eggs if you are comfortable, and if you are more comfortable with fish or even non-vertebrate sea creatures, they actually tend to have more nutrients, and bone broth from fish is better than chicken broth.  If you would like you son to remain vegetarian, I would recommend pursuing all avenues and taking the vegetarian aspects of each perspective.  That way, if you come to the point that you feel like you need to put meat in your son's diet, you can be confident that you tried everything else first.

 

ETA: We are still night nursing.  DD is 19 months old.  She first chipped her tooth and got a cavity at 7 months.

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#9 of 30 Old 11-18-2010, 06:13 PM
 
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night nursing in and of itself isn't  the issue.  night nursing if there are pockets created by a tight maxillary frenulum is.  it's important to understand the difference. The dentist lecturing about this is VERY pro breastfeeding and doesn't suggest stopping as a result.  If the child is affected the best answer is to handle the issue, not wean.

 

I agree whole-heartedly about the vitamin D.

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#10 of 30 Old 11-18-2010, 09:04 PM
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night nursing in and of itself isn't  the issue.  night nursing if there are pockets created by a tight maxillary frenulum is.  it's important to understand the difference. The dentist lecturing about this is VERY pro breastfeeding and doesn't suggest stopping as a result.  If the child is affected the best answer is to handle the issue, not wean.

 

I agree whole-heartedly about the vitamin D.


Certainly, though this is not a problem for every child with cavities.  It is not in our case.  My daughter's issues were, I believe, caused by mineral deficiencies.  I had nightly painful leg cramps when I was pregnant, a sign of calcium deficiency, and she had a couple weak teeth as a result.  To fix it, I really needed to fix her (and my) diets.  Milk does not pool around her teeth in any way.

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I'm really hoping someone can help. DD has pretty severe cavities on her upper front teeth. Ped of course has blamed night nursing. DD is soy and dairy (pasteurized, we haven't tried raw yet) allergic, and who knows if there are others that we haven't identified. She has so far eaten a vegetarian diet. She still BF a fair amount.

 

We are really hesitant to allow dental work to be done on her at this point. There is NO way she would allow work to be done, so therefore would have to undergo general anesthesia. We want to try to avoid that if at all possible.

 

From what I've read here it seems that some people have halted or reversed decay using the CLO, cell salts, WAP diet... DH and I are trying to weigh these things, as we take the decision to feed DD meat very seriously. We are also concerned because of her dairy allergy, though I've read that some who are allergic can tolerate raw dairy. 

 

I guess what we're asking is how many people here have been successful in halting or remineralizing decay? Have any been successful without adding meat and bone broth into the diet? 

 

How exactly do cell salts work, which ones should we use, and at what dose?

 

What is the role of food allergies in dental decay? Is there a link? 

 

Is the xylitol generally helpful or not? I see both sides being argued. 

 

Should we be using tooth soap or a flouride-free toothpaste? She is AWFUL about brushing her teeth.

 

We are willing to take the plunge and commit to a trial of the WAP diet, but I guess we're just looking for some more encouragement, words of wisdom, or something....

 

 

 

For sure start up on the cell salts, as they helped my dd when she had decay. 

 

I do believe that in my dds case, she developed cavities from eating tons of allergens.  I was supplmenting her with a great raw calcium, consuming loads of grass fed butter, nettles infusions, raw dairy, raw yogurt, only soaked grains (lots of homemade sourdough bread), and tons of bone broth.  We also ate meat only organic too.  And lots pf pastured eggs and greens, raw and steamed.  During this time, dd developed cavities, only on her canines for some reason.  Come to find out that she is very allergic to dairy, wheat ?, eggs, and her calcium supplment. 

 

Even before eliminating all of the foods, as we wnet slowly, I started her up on calc phos and bioplasma, and her cavities stopped and sealed over. 

 

 So our diet was very "WAPF", but not WAP perhpas.  If you ask me if I promote eating meat instead of vegetarian, i would say only if  you feel better with meat and what you are replacing the meat isn't as healthy or nutrient dense.  I  was a vegetarian for years, and

i feel better with meat like liver and marrow and bone broths in addition to a nutrient dense vegetarian diet.  I am still open to going veg*n again or during certian times of the year.

 

Also I agree about the vit D.  I recently got tested and even thouggh I took tons of vit D all summer and got sun, I was borderline deficient.

 

I am not for xylitol, but some feel different.

 

 

We use pascalite clay to brush with and I hold down my 16 month old even though he doesn't like to be brushed.  3 yr old dd love to get her teeth brushed.

 

Hope some of this is helpful!
 

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night nursing in and of itself isn't  the issue.  night nursing if there are pockets created by a tight maxillary frenulum is.  it's important to understand the difference. The dentist lecturing about this is VERY pro breastfeeding and doesn't suggest stopping as a result.  If the child is affected the best answer is to handle the issue, not wean.

 

I agree whole-heartedly about the vitamin D.


Certainly, though this is not a problem for every child with cavities.  It is not in our case.  My daughter's issues were, I believe, caused by mineral deficiencies.  I had nightly painful leg cramps when I was pregnant, a sign of calcium deficiency, and she had a couple weak teeth as a result.  To fix it, I really needed to fix her (and my) diets.  Milk does not pool around her teeth in any way.

I did not say it was.  What I can say is a LARGE percentage of babies we see in our clinic DO have this issue and it often remains undiagnosed.  You would be shocked if you knew how many children this affected.  In cases where it's just the two top front teeth it should be considered.  It also doesn't mean there's also a nutritional issue as I would argue it was a nutritional issue that created it in the first place.

 

I started going to in services about this over 4 years ago and it's being taught internationally mostly by mainstream MD's and DDS's and seen by many IBCLC's.  It's a significant and growing problem and there's many threads on MDC alone about it.  Many are getting it addressed before teeth ever erupt.
 

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In terms of the maxillary frenulum, that would need an assessment by a competent professional.  Many people chose to surgically correct it.  I did.  I'm a homebirthing, non vaxxing, holistic parent whose kids have never had any medication ever.  However looking at the implications both with digestion, dental health and respiration I felt that it was the right thing to do.  It may not be a problem for you at all, but that's a potential reason for decay in just the front teeth related to nursing.  We didn't do it until my kids who needed it were 6 and 4 because that's when we found someone who could do it with a laser.  Here's who I ended up consulting with-there's a good amount of research on his site:  www.kiddsteeth.com

 

I also think it's important to realize there is no WAP diet.  There's a diet advocated by the WAPF which isn't the same thing as what WAP found.  The foundation was formed after his death and I dont' personally feel that what they are promoting is Price's findings.

 

I do believe that bone broths, grass fed meat and the like are health giving but I don't know that it's the only way to heal.  What Dr. Price did find was that adding simply CLO a bit of broth and possibly some raw butter changed things for people in the absence of other dietary modifications.  Granted I'd have to go back and review, but that's my recollection.

 

 

Very well said about WAP!

 

Thanks for the link for kids teeth.com.  Do they also do tongue tie snipping?  both my kids have terrible underbites, (dd's is the worst), and very crowded bottom teeth.  I asked the Pediatrician if she has a tongue tie, and I was told no, but I really think she does.  I need to take her else where to get action.  And how costly is it to get a snip?  Is it better for the laser or a regular snip in terms of gentler for kids?
 

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laser is better, no question in terms of efficacy and comfort.  Yes, he does lingual and maxillary frenulums and if you go to his office he has published, peer reviewed literature hanging all over the place.  This is his area of expertise.  Insurance often covers it, but you're looking at $450 per kid.  He does all he needs to do for that price (meaning if both need to be done, he does them both no extra charge.)

 

Surgical has many limitations which I'm happy to discuss-though I'm limited to what I have been taught and he'd be a better person to explain it!  I've been watching these procedures and the aftermath for about 4 years now and there is a clear difference-especially in older kids.  For infants I'd not recommend surgical over laser unless it was a matter of not getting it done otherwise.  Basically, if your only option is surgical it's better than nothing.

 

Sadly, people are only now being educated on the situation (after 40 years of having it written out of medical texts) so your ped may be looking for an anterior tie instead of a posterior which seems to cause so many of these issues.  Dr. Kotlow has quite a few pics on his site though.  For my kids, personally it changed quite a few things I wasn't expecting to see.  After years of watching this (and my youngest was surgically clipped twice and examined by one of the biggest pediatric surgeon's teaching about this today) I decided to let the laser do what scissors could not.  I couldn't be more pleased with the results-and neither could they. 

 

I've also seen for years not what happens when it's NOT addressed in digestion, respiration, speech, dental health etc.  (In my kids as well.)  This is one procedure I can get behind.  It's not just a breastfeeding problem.  There are doctors lecturing all over the place and presenting clinical evidence (complete with ultrasounds showing function) as to how this alters physiology.  It is, of course, a minor midline defect that is very common.  I'm very pleased to see all the information coming forth.  Dr. Kotlow has cases where the procedure stopped reflux in older (6-8 years) kids as well as digestive disturbances like IBS and IBD.  Very interesting stuff.  For a long time I assumed the allergies/reflux/ankyloglossia cascade couldn't be reversed.  He is not the only doctor showing that it can.

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#15 of 30 Old 11-19-2010, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I do believe that in my dds case, she developed cavities from eating tons of allergens.  I was supplmenting her with a great raw calcium, consuming loads of grass fed butter, nettles infusions, raw dairy, raw yogurt, only soaked grains (lots of homemade sourdough bread), and tons of bone broth.  We also ate meat only organic too.  And lots pf pastured eggs and greens, raw and steamed.  During this time, dd developed cavities, only on her canines for some reason.  Come to find out that she is very allergic to dairy, wheat ?, eggs, and her calcium supplment. 

 

 

So our diet was very "WAPF", but not WAP perhpas.  If you ask me if I promote eating meat instead of vegetarian, i would say only if  you feel better with meat and what you are replacing the meat isn't as healthy or nutrient dense.  I  was a vegetarian for years, and

i feel better with meat like liver and marrow and bone broths in addition to a nutrient dense vegetarian diet.  I am still open to going veg*n again or during certian times of the year.

 

 


Thanks for your response. How did you determine all of her allergies? None of the tests seem to be totally reliable, and I hate to put her through the pain only to get invalid results. :(  

 

Do you make your own bone broths? Can I purchase these? (Touching bones and seeing them really makes me uncomfortable.) At this point we are willing to feed DD anything to help improve her overall health as well as dental. 

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laser is better, no question in terms of efficacy and comfort.  Yes, he does lingual and maxillary frenulums and if you go to his office he has published, peer reviewed literature hanging all over the place.  This is his area of expertise.  Insurance often covers it, but you're looking at $450 per kid.  He does all he needs to do for that price (meaning if both need to be done, he does them both no extra charge.)

 

Surgical has many limitations which I'm happy to discuss-though I'm limited to what I have been taught and he'd be a better person to explain it!  I've been watching these procedures and the aftermath for about 4 years now and there is a clear difference-especially in older kids.  For infants I'd not recommend surgical over laser unless it was a matter of not getting it done otherwise.  Basically, if your only option is surgical it's better than nothing.

 

Sadly, people are only now being educated on the situation (after 40 years of having it written out of medical texts) so your ped may be looking for an anterior tie instead of a posterior which seems to cause so many of these issues.  Dr. Kotlow has quite a few pics on his site though.  For my kids, personally it changed quite a few things I wasn't expecting to see.  After years of watching this (and my youngest was surgically clipped twice and examined by one of the biggest pediatric surgeon's teaching about this today) I decided to let the laser do what scissors could not.  I couldn't be more pleased with the results-and neither could they. 

 

I've also seen for years not what happens when it's NOT addressed in digestion, respiration, speech, dental health etc.  (In my kids as well.)  This is one procedure I can get behind.  It's not just a breastfeeding problem.  There are doctors lecturing all over the place and presenting clinical evidence (complete with ultrasounds showing function) as to how this alters physiology.  It is, of course, a minor midline defect that is very common.  I'm very pleased to see all the information coming forth.  Dr. Kotlow has cases where the procedure stopped reflux in older (6-8 years) kids as well as digestive disturbances like IBS and IBD.  Very interesting stuff.  For a long time I assumed the allergies/reflux/ankyloglossia cascade couldn't be reversed.  He is not the only doctor showing that it can.


I've been reading everything I can about this now. I suspect the tight maxillary frenulum is an issue with DD. Her front teeth do not touch, and we had a LOT of trouble establishing breastfeeding. I have never thought her latch was right. I am so thankful to you for bringing this topic into the discussion, as no one (even the LCs and peds that we saw) suggested this could be an issue. We will be getting it looked at for sure!  

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#17 of 30 Old 11-19-2010, 11:56 AM
 
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I'm happy it resonates for you because even though it's not an easy fix necessarily, it has multiple ramifications and does tend to explain so much for so many people.  You certainly have a few flags that you've already identified.  I'd be happy to talk about my experience. 

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I would do IGG testing through Great Plains Laboratory.  It is a blood test, so not all the pain of skin tests.  Just one quick prick.  Also, my pediatrician is a big fan of NAET which we have also done.  My son came up for tomato, wheat, and all dairy (milk, cheese, yogurt, casein, whey, etc) w/ the blood test.  And removing the milk and tomato did remarkable things.  The wheat I never saw much of a difference w/.  With NAET he came up allergic to corn and all dairy (as the big ones) also some plastics and red food coloring.  Tomato and wheat didn't come up.  Dairy came up on both.  Other than that, we got mixed results.  And I do think that he is better with less corn and no tomato.  So I sort of took what I needed from both methods.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1 View Post

 

I do believe that in my dds case, she developed cavities from eating tons of allergens.  I was supplmenting her with a great raw calcium, consuming loads of grass fed butter, nettles infusions, raw dairy, raw yogurt, only soaked grains (lots of homemade sourdough bread), and tons of bone broth.  We also ate meat only organic too.  And lots pf pastured eggs and greens, raw and steamed.  During this time, dd developed cavities, only on her canines for some reason.  Come to find out that she is very allergic to dairy, wheat ?, eggs, and her calcium supplment. 

 

 

So our diet was very "WAPF", but not WAP perhpas.  If you ask me if I promote eating meat instead of vegetarian, i would say only if  you feel better with meat and what you are replacing the meat isn't as healthy or nutrient dense.  I  was a vegetarian for years, and

i feel better with meat like liver and marrow and bone broths in addition to a nutrient dense vegetarian diet.  I am still open to going veg*n again or during certian times of the year.

 

 


Thanks for your response. How did you determine all of her allergies? None of the tests seem to be totally reliable, and I hate to put her through the pain only to get invalid results. :(  

 

Do you make your own bone broths? Can I purchase these? (Touching bones and seeing them really makes me uncomfortable.) At this point we are willing to feed DD anything to help improve her overall health as well as dental. 



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I'm happy it resonates for you because even though it's not an easy fix necessarily, it has multiple ramifications and does tend to explain so much for so many people.  You certainly have a few flags that you've already identified.  I'd be happy to talk about my experience. 



I would definitely love to hear about your experience. Any information you can provide is so appreciated! I feel like I'm finally starting to zero in on some of the issues that DD is struggling with. I am so grateful to the Mothering forums. I have been searching for answers for months! 

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#20 of 30 Old 11-19-2010, 01:38 PM
 
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Basically no one knew that dd had an issue wrt the tongue ties until she was 2.  She struggled from birth with a great many things and was tube fed.  So much was going on that no one was looking at mechanical issues with her tongue/lips.  She was FTT, had extreme reflux, digestive problems, dx autistic in infancy, eventually dx with celiac disease, multiple food allergies, and there are some possible genetic issues that are being looked at now.  Her lungs have never expanded fully and she has a chronic cough that has been dx as a tic.  Before looking at connective tissue disorders and other genetic issues we decided to talk to Dr. Kotlow to see what he thought.  Everyone agreed that it was silly to go forward with other tests when we knew that she definitely had the tie.  That needed to be ruled out as a maintaining cause first. 

 

Ds2 was dx with a tongue tie at birth.  He was clipped right away.  He also had some strange breathing issues, but none that required intervention.  I just kept looking at him and telling people he was breathing "backwards."  His chest expanded on the exhale and contracted on the inhale.  He also was constipated at an EBF infant though all allergens were eliminated.  Finally he was clipped again a few months later.  That clipping changed his breathing that day.  It also helped normalize his stooling patterns-but not to the point that I wanted.  A month or two later Dr. Coryllos came to do the in service on ankyloglossia.  I attended and had dh bring ds2 after the lecture was over.  She assessed him and while he still had a tie it was a complicated one.  

 

Surgically, what's important to understand is that they can only make one cut.  After that blood clouds the field and they have to stop.  Now, they may not be done, but they can't do more that day.  In the next week a cord may pop forward which then needs to be clipped.  Again, they get one snip before the blood halts the procedure.  I have seen babies go for 3 plus clippings and still not be done.  With ds2, he required a third, but it would have been a removal of tissue, not just a snip.  It would have been more involved as he was around 6 months at that point.  Laser wasn't an option because no one around here knew of anyone who was doing it.

 

Long story short-fast forward a few years.  Dd is still having minor issues with her lungs, post nasal drip, chronic cough and she doesn't have restful sleep-though she sleeps through the night.  Ds2 had speech issues.  Both had minor digestive stuff left over after a lot of healing.  Both have high palates because their tongues were too anchored to draw them down and spread them.  While their teeth are quite straight, they're crowded.  Both have a gap between their top two teeth.  Both have the small "v" in their bottom two front teeth.

 

At 6 and 4 I started hearing about Kotlow from various symposiums.  Most people around here see a doc for surgical modification as he's the one guy that was trained to do them, and does them regularly.  Kotlow was presenting information very differently.  He goes deep with the laser.  It only takes one time and he gets everything.  Since it's a laser it cauterizes as it modifies and the results are astonishing.  We had one 7 year old boy go up whom speech therapy hadn't helped and he came back speaking clearly THAT DAY.  That's what convinced me.  I'd seen lots of babies and toddlers go up...but results that good for an older kid were mind boggling.  His digestion improved immediately too.  I was able to talk to Dr. Kotlow and chose to head up with my kids.

 

It was difficult.  They both had what he considered complicated cases.  However he worked on both of them.  Normally he just does topical novacaine, but they required more as their maxillary frenulums both went back into their palates.  On the ride home (took a few hours) we noticed a change.  Things were different right away in both speech and breathing.  Dd's doctor noted that her connective tissue had freed up (this was what we were hoping for) and her lungs expanded more.  She is no longer hypertonic.  Her cough has reduced by 65% or so and is no longer explosive.  She's sleeping much more soundly.  Ds's speech is very different.  It's really hard to believe that one simple procedure could change that much.

 

We managed the discomfort very easily with homeopathy, cell salts and some herbs.  There were no pain meds required after the procedure.  The only times they complained were first thing in the morning on days 2 and 3.  That was just after sleeping all night and not having the remedies-wouldn't have been any different with painkillers.  They were fine within 15 minutes of taking the remedies.  There was follow up care, and exercises required so that the scar tissue didn't form.  They were happy to do them. 

 

That's it in a nutshell.  LOL.  Feel free to ask any questions.  Sorry if it's scattered...my kids are now home and feeling rowdy.  It's hard to think in chaos!

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Thank you, thank you PB for sharing.  This is just what I needed to hear.  Today when I was working with 3 yr dd and her speech, trying to get her to say her words clear, she was crying sying, "I just can't mommy."  People have a hard time understanding her.   I bet it has alot to do with the tongue tie. 

 

Now how do I find out if she has tongue tie since my dr said she doesn't, but she has the classic "v" on the bottom and all signs that she does?  I want to make sure she really has it before I take the trip to Albany.  I am for sure going to get my kids ties taken care of.           

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if you don't have anyone near you, I'd call his office and see what his protocol is.  He doesn't require a referral.  Perhaps you could ask about sending a photo or something? 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenc7237 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1 View Post

 

I do believe that in my dds case, she developed cavities from eating tons of allergens.  I was supplmenting her with a great raw calcium, consuming loads of grass fed butter, nettles infusions, raw dairy, raw yogurt, only soaked grains (lots of homemade sourdough bread), and tons of bone broth.  We also ate meat only organic too.  And lots pf pastured eggs and greens, raw and steamed.  During this time, dd developed cavities, only on her canines for some reason.  Come to find out that she is very allergic to dairy, wheat ?, eggs, and her calcium supplment. 

 

 

So our diet was very "WAPF", but not WAP perhpas.  If you ask me if I promote eating meat instead of vegetarian, i would say only if  you feel better with meat and what you are replacing the meat isn't as healthy or nutrient dense.  I  was a vegetarian for years, and

i feel better with meat like liver and marrow and bone broths in addition to a nutrient dense vegetarian diet.  I am still open to going veg*n again or during certian times of the year.

 

 


Thanks for your response. How did you determine all of her allergies? None of the tests seem to be totally reliable, and I hate to put her through the pain only to get invalid results. :(  

 

Do you make your own bone broths? Can I purchase these? (Touching bones and seeing them really makes me uncomfortable.) At this point we are willing to feed DD anything to help improve her overall health as well as dental. 

We did muscle testing kind of stuff, but it wasn't always accurate.  It was really trial.  The allergy forum here was a big help too.  My dr would never agree (insurance reasons) to do any bloodwork.

 

I do make my own broths and it is very easy and inexpensive too.  A local farmer just gave me a huge box of grass fed beef bones for free as they were tasking up room in his freezer.  The only time I saw it to buy was at a special organic butcher shop when I lived near NYC.  Still making it is easy. I don't like to touch meat having been a vegetarian so long, but bones don't bother me.  Plus I am glad to use the bones and not have them be tossed out.  A way more respectful thing for the cow since it gave its life.  This is just my opinion, and I don't want to get into an ethics etc discussion, as that can get sticky.
 

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if you don't have anyone near you, I'd call his office and see what his protocol is.  He doesn't require a referral.  Perhaps you could ask about sending a photo or something? 


How do you go about find an office that uses lasers?  Is there a way to find out myself if they have the tie?  Google? :)  This is all so new to me.
  Still I appreciate the recommendation as I want to job done right so the few hour drive is worth it and I have family about an hour south from his office.

 

 

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I'd ask his office if he could recommend someone else closer.  Scott Seigel is another who does it, but he's in Long Island which would be more of a haul for you.  I've heard he's also a great guy-though I've never met him.  Homebirther, supportive of breastfeeding, homeschooler and he'll work on adults too.  Kotlow will not.  He's strictly pediatrics.

 

Thing is, you don't just want someone who does it, you want someone (or at least I did) who really, really, really knows what they are doing.  The day I went there were several other kids there for the same thing and I was only there for an hour or so.  He clearly does them very regularly and is very good at what he does.

 

You also have tools to help your little out.  PM me if you want to know what remedies we used and how.  You can get supplies from your mom.

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she has the classic "v" on the bottom          


Please tell me more about this? I'm sitting here literally in tears because I just came back to this thread and learned about tight maxillary frenum. I'm dealing w/ 2 and 3 yr olds w/decay on their front uppers. I'm sitting here w/2 mo old dd asleep on my lap, I pulled back her lip and she has it! Just like the photos! I'd bet money that all of my other kids also have it. I'm also wondering about a posterior tie (crowded mouths, high palattes, apnea, digestive problems, etc), and now I want to know what the "v" is... I have been saying a lot in the past few days what a messy eater dd is, always spilling milk with every suck, milk all across her face when she's done. Oh, so many things could be explained by this!


FAs, co-sleeping, babywearing, extended nursing, positive parenting, homeschooler

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Oh, God, is it where the bottom front 2 teeth are at an angle, farther back in the center than at the outside edges? I have that and so does my daughter that had the speech problems! My 2yo ds is turning that way, too!


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Quote:
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she has the classic "v" on the bottom          


Please tell me more about this? I'm sitting here literally in tears because I just came back to this thread and learned about tight maxillary frenum. I'm dealing w/ 2 and 3 yr olds w/decay on their front uppers. I'm sitting here w/2 mo old dd asleep on my lap, I pulled back her lip and she has it! Just like the photos! I'd bet money that all of my other kids also have it. I'm also wondering about a posterior tie (crowded mouths, high palattes, apnea, digestive problems, etc), and now I want to know what the "v" is... I have been saying a lot in the past few days what a messy eater dd is, always spilling milk with every suck, milk all across her face when she's done. Oh, so many things could be explained by this!

Her two bottom teeth point inward that look like a "v".  Do you need more description?  I sceduled an appointment with a local tongue tie specialist and if they confirm she has it, I will be taking her to the place PB recommended.
 

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Oh, God, is it where the bottom front 2 teeth are at an angle, farther back in the center than at the outside edges? I have that and so does my daughter that had the speech problems! My 2yo ds is turning that way, too!



yes, that's exactly it.  And it sounds like you're having a really hard time with this right now.  I know it's a lot to take in, but there are ways to address it.  Hugs, mama.  we have a tendency to come across information when we're best able to handle it, so please don't be too upset by this!

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jenc7237</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279223/cavities-and-food-allergies-in-a-vegetarian-dairy-soy-allergic-2-yo-wap-cell-salts-remineralization#post_16043609"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>I'm really hoping someone can help. DD has pretty severe cavities on her upper front teeth. Ped of course has blamed night nursing. DD is soy and dairy (pasteurized, we haven't tried raw yet) allergic, and who knows if there are others that we haven't identified. She has so far eaten a vegetarian diet. She still BF a fair amount.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We are really hesitant to allow dental work to be done on her at this point. There is NO way she would allow work to be done, so therefore would have to undergo general anesthesia. We want to try to avoid that if at all possible.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>From what I've read here it seems that some people have halted or reversed decay using the CLO, cell salts, WAP diet... DH and I are trying to weigh these things, as we take the decision to feed DD meat very seriously. We are also concerned because of her dairy allergy, though I've read that some who are allergic can tolerate raw dairy. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I guess what we're asking is how many people here have been successful in halting or remineralizing decay? Have any been successful without adding meat and bone broth into the diet? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>How exactly do cell salts work, which ones should we use, and at what dose?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What is the role of food allergies in dental decay? Is there a link? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Is the xylitol generally helpful or not? I see both sides being argued. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Should we be using tooth soap or a flouride-free toothpaste? She is AWFUL about brushing her teeth.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We are willing to take the plunge and commit to a trial of the WAP diet, but I guess we're just looking for some more encouragement, words of wisdom, or something....</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p>For sure start up on the cell salts, as they helped my dd when she had decay. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I do believe that in my dds case, she developed cavities from eating tons of allergens.  I was supplmenting her with a great raw calcium, consuming loads of grass fed butter, nettles infusions, raw dairy, raw yogurt, only soaked grains (lots of homemade sourdough bread), and tons of bone broth.  We also ate meat only organic too.  And lots pf pastured eggs and greens, raw and steamed.  During this time, dd developed cavities, only on her canines for some reason.  Come to find out that she is very allergic to dairy, wheat ?, eggs, and her calcium supplment. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Even before eliminating all of the foods, as we wnet slowly, I started her up on calc phos and bioplasma, and her cavities stopped and sealed over. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> So our diet was very "WAPF", but not WAP perhpas.  If you ask me if I promote eating meat instead of vegetarian, i would say only if  you feel better with meat and what you are replacing the meat isn't as healthy or nutrient dense.  I  was a vegetarian for years, and</p>
<p>i feel better with meat like liver and marrow and bone broths in addition to a nutrient dense vegetarian diet.  I am still open to going veg*n again or during certian times of the year.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also I agree about the vit D.  I recently got tested and even thouggh I took tons of vit D all summer and got sun, I was borderline deficient.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I am not for xylitol, but some feel different.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>We use pascalite clay to brush with and I hold down my 16 month old even though he doesn't like to be brushed.  3 yr old dd love to get her teeth brushed.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hope some of this is helpful!<br>
 </p>
"Even before eliminating all of the foods, as we wnet slowly, I started her up on calc phos and bioplasma, and her cavities stopped and sealed over. "

My 3 year old daughter has 12 cavities. I need urgent help. Where can I get the calc phos and bio plasma you are talking about.
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