She has 10 cavities... I feel like I just got kicked - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just got an appointment with a pediatric dentist to take care of this.

 

I'm seeing that most people seem to recommend general anesthesia and just getting them all done at once. I don't like the sound of that.

 

Do you even need anesthesia for baby teeth? I seem to remember having none for my baby teeth cavities (yes, I had them, but not 10!!!). I recall baby teeth don't have nerves.

 

If the GA is just to eliminate wiggles and uncooperative children, I'm wondering if we can avoid it. DD is extremely cooperative. She had her teeth cleaned and examined and xrays taken without a single hitch.

 

What are we doing wrong??? DH asked the dentist (he is the one who took her) and the dentist said nothing, it's common these days, don't give her so much apple juice, and give her more milk. But that just strikes me as... I dunno. The dentist DD saw is terrific in terms of niceness and gentleness and his staff is outstanding, but I don't think he knows squat about prevention and such. DD doesn't drink much juice anyway, it's a special occasion sort of thing. She drinks milk almost exclusively, but I'm not nearly convinced of its anti-cavity properties. (It's regular grocery store milk, not raw or anything).

 

Well, I dunno what I'm looking for... commiseration, maybe. Advice, sure.

 

I think I'm going to look into the GAPS diet.


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#2 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 01:57 PM
 
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I am sorry to hear of this for your little one. 

 

GAPS diet.... go for it. 

 

Primary teeth do have nerves. 

 

Glad to hear that you like the DDS and their staff, that is a bonus.  I am surprised though that they couldn't give you any reasons.  It is a catch 22 for a DDS to suggest things like that though... I imagine it could be diet.  So... yes GAPS.  You are right about the homogenized/pasteurized milk issue, no healing properties for decay. 

 

As for the GA.  I am right there with you.  I would not be cozy with that.  Usually they administer GA and have your child in a papoose board... they give me the creeps.  Mainly for the rare incidence that the child wakes as some adults and children wake very violently. 

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pf3cAzX7e70/R4lIzTSNy9I/AAAAAAAAABo/q-uJqL4ZZ8g/s320/papoose-sizes.jpg

 

I would ask if possible if there is a pill sedative that is available or (better yet) if they would like to try one quad at a time while she is awake since she is such a trooper at the dentist... Whoo hooo for you!  That is so wonderful to hear. 

 

hug2.gif

 


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#3 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you very much. I am currently searching MDC, CookingTF, and Google at large about GAPS, but not coming up with anything substantial. Unfortunately it seems the book is not in our library system (how can that be?? Half our STATE is on the system!! This is not an obscure book!).

 

Not that I expect you to be my dental genie or something, but why can't they just use novocaine? Ah, you're not my google mommy either. Ah, wow, there's really not much I'm finding today. Sigh. Thank you again.


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#4 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 02:11 PM
 
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I don't think it's all diet.  Both my kids eat exactly the same (except ds2 is allergic to dairy) and ds1 has had many many cavities, ds2 has had none.  I've had many, many cavities.

 

We did the laughing gas with our kid.  It just relaxed him and he had no problems.  A really good dentist shouldn't have any problems.

 

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#5 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I totally agree it's not all diet - I've seen too many siblings with radically different dental health. Yet there must be something wrong here; I don't think cavities are normal for the species, or, if they are, then they are not common. And 10 in a 5 year old; something must be wrong.

 

If anyone knows anything about GAPS, why can't I find the book anywhere? I am searching for author NATASHA CAMPBELL-MCBRIDE or title GUT AND PSYCHOLOGY SYNDROME and I not only get no matches in my library system, but none on half.com? How could that be?


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Originally Posted by laohaire View Post

I totally agree it's not all diet - I've seen too many siblings with radically different dental health. Yet there must be something wrong here; I don't think cavities are normal for the species, or, if they are, then they are not common. And 10 in a 5 year old; something must be wrong.

 

If anyone knows anything about GAPS, why can't I find the book anywhere? I am searching for author NATASHA CAMPBELL-MCBRIDE or title GUT AND PSYCHOLOGY SYNDROME and I not only get no matches in my library system, but none on half.com? How could that be?

 

I can get a copy of a DVD (from a seminar she spoke at) and send it to you... may take some time but I can get it.  I do also agree with the diet thing as PP have said... I am just on a soap box these days about diet   blahblah.gif.

 

They honestly could use novocaine but most DDS's won't touch a kid without GA or a sedative due to the instruments involved in removing decay.  Kind of a hazard if the LO isn't into it.  One slip and ouch, KWIM? 

 

I like the idea of being a genie!  Cracks me up! 

You may find some good info here on Natasha's writing.  I consider myself a half ass WAPF follower.  I'd say 70%.  Can't get into some of it dizzy.gif


http://westonaprice.org/component/finder/search?q=gaps


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#7 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 02:33 PM
 
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Ok... ok

 

I am done editing my last post!  Forgot to add a few things. 


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#8 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 02:44 PM
 
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I would seek a second opinion before my child underwent any additional procedures.

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#9 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 02:50 PM
 
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I would seek a second opinion before my child underwent any additional procedures.



Agreed.  I had the thought that some DDS's are a tad money hungry and some of the decay could possibly wait.... wouldn't hurt the permanent teeth, in some cases. 


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#10 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 03:18 PM
 
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Agreed.  I had the thought that some DDS's are a tad money hungry and some of the decay could possibly wait.... wouldn't hurt the permanent teeth, in some cases. 

 

 

You might find this interesting: 

http://www.colgate.com/app/CP/US/EN/OC/Information/Articles/Oral-and-Dental-Health-Basics/Common-Concerns/Cavities-Tooth-Decay/article/Too-Much-Drilling-Not-All-Early-Tooth-Decay-Needs-a-Filling.cvsp

 

 

Quote:

Too Much Drilling? Not All Early Tooth Decay Needs a Filling

Some dentists are using newer technologies to help detect the beginnings of decay. The aim is to find out when the tooth begins to soften, before it turns into a cavity.

But if you have early decay, what should be done? Do you need a filling right away?

Not necessarily.

These days, dental decay is "a slowly progressing disease," says David A. Albert, D.D.S., M.P.H. Dr. Albert is an associate professor of clinical dentistry at the Columbia University College of Dental Medicine.

"From start to finish in the general population, it can take five years to go from early decay to full-blown involvement of the pulp," Dr. Albert says. The pulp is the center of the tooth, where the nerves and blood vessels are.

Early in the 20th century, decay could reach the pulp in a matter of months, Dr. Albert says.

Today, early decay doesn't always mean you need a filling. In fact, the decay often can be reversed. A tooth starts to decay because acid in your mouth causes minerals to leach out of the enamel. This makes the enamel break down.

Fluoride therapy, dietary changes and better oral hygiene habits can reverse this process. Minerals can build up in the tooth again, making the enamel stronger.

In some cases, a filling is a no-brainer. If you're in pain or have an obvious cavity (a break in the tooth surface), you need a filling. But, says Dr. Albert, "If there's no cavity and no pain, the tooth can fix itself."

"If I saw 100 patients [who had early decay] and decided to wait six months before treating them, it would be the right decision for 95 of them," he says. "I think we do more harm by overtreating, because there will always be complications of treatment."

For example, once a tooth has a filling in it, there is always a chance the filling will crack, break or fall out. A space left between the filling and the tooth is a hot spot for further decay. Eventually, the tooth may need endodontic (root canal) treatment or may even need to be extracted.

Dr. Albert says that using the new technologies in theory should lead to fewer fillings for most people. That's because early decay can be reversed with fluoride treatments or better oral hygiene habits. However, the reality may be different.

"Dentists who use these machines may actually do more fillings," he says. "For the general population, that's wrong. For some high-risk individuals, it's good to find [decay] early and treat it early. But if you're in a low-risk category, the treatment of choice is to do nothing."

So why don't most dentists watch and wait? They may be worried that the person won't return in six months for another checkup. Or they may worry that they will be perceived as indecisive or inexperienced.

Also, the detection devices aren't always right. "Some things look like cavities, but they're not," Dr. Albert says. "A dark discoloration does not mean a cavity."

©2002-2009 Aetna, Inc. All rights reserved.
Reviewed by the faculty of Columbia University College of Dental Medicine

7/10/2008

 

 
 

 


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#11 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think the process we're doing involves a second opinion.

 

She saw a regular dentist today. He referred her to a pediatric dentist (and recommended her VERY highly). I made an appointment. The appointment will involve the pediatric dentist looking at DD and looking at the xrays taken today.

 

I can see about drills and kids moving around. Still, I'm pretty queasy about the idea of GA. DH and I are talking about getting used to a sedative, though.

 

Xantho, thank you very much for the offer of the DVD. Wow, that's very nice of you. I think it won't be as useful for me though - I can't hear recordings very well and usually don't get much out of video unless it's closed captioned. But thank you again, anyway, that's just really terrific.


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#12 of 52 Old 04-07-2011, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Cholebelle, thank you for the link and reference. I will read. I haven't fully read it yet (will do as soon as I post, but then I'm going right offline so I won't post again until tomorrow) but I often feel helpless in our choices. Few dentists seem to want to do anything but drill and fill. They don't seem to have any concept of health or the relationship to the teeth and the rest of the body, etc.

 

I do know a dentist in this state (2 hours drive one way) that does seem to understand this stuff. But he's not pediatric. He might see DD though. It's a long drive and a lot of money, but he seems to know a great deal more than any other dentist I've ever seen. He's never seen DD, just me - and I haven't gone in a couple of years due to poverty and lack of time.


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#13 of 52 Old 04-08-2011, 08:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by laohaire View Post

 

Xantho, thank you very much for the offer of the DVD. Wow, that's very nice of you. I think it won't be as useful for me though - I can't hear recordings very well and usually don't get much out of video unless it's closed captioned. But thank you again, anyway, that's just really terrific.


Not to worry.  I will see also if I can get my hands on the book.  I used to have a copy, lent out, can't remember who has it.  The WAPF website was pretty informative though.  You get the basics on that.  I also woke up the AM thinking of your LO and thought, some DDS's do air abrasion for decay removal... like a sandblaster, sounds crazy but is effective without Novocaine if the decay isn't too deep. 

 

Good luck to you.  PM me if you have any other thoughts!  Wish I could just grant a wish! goodvibes.gif

 


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Yep.... for sure.  I am one that stays away from fluoride.  I was taught alternative methods for re-mineralization. See here... 

 

http://www.uncleharrys.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/528

 


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#15 of 52 Old 04-08-2011, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It's helpful to know a librarian! I was at the library last night and mentioned to the librarian that a book I wanted was on the system. She looked in a neighboring library system, and they have one copy. Apparently, I can request it! But I have to wait, because there's another hold on it already, and it accepts only one hold at a time.

 

We have not given flouride to DD, and are open to being convinced otherwise, but we'd need more than "flouride is good for you." DH and I have both spent a little time looking at it, and we find it frustrating - like researching vaccines. Everything seems like a lie, or twisted. I don't see any good evidence that really addresses the questions that some people and studies have raised. I just don't know.

 

I do plan to ensure the fillings are composites. We'll do it even if we have to go into credit card debt for it. (Which, unfortunately, might actually come to pass - if it does, it would be the first time in our entire lives and marriage that we'd ever been in credit card debt).


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#16 of 52 Old 04-08-2011, 02:11 PM
 
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I feel like dentistry is such an expensive necessity.  Most folks do not realize how important their mouth health is and how much it affects the body.  I am grateful I worked in the business for free treatment.  Man.. I am in need of a cleaning now and am not to happy about the cash it takes to do so! 

 

Sooooo glad to hear you found a copy!  Fantastic. 

 

Wanted to add.... do your research on composites too.  Most have really high amounts of BPA and estrogen.... man it never stops!  I know my old boss used a product called "Grandio" and it has the lowest out there.... that was however 2 years ago... may be better ones now. 

 

Good resource link for all that stuff.

 

 http://www.iaomt.org/


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#17 of 52 Old 04-08-2011, 03:39 PM
 
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I am in the same boat.  There are only two pediatric dentists in my area and they both want to go the GA route.  I feel horrible.  DS1 has no decay, and DS2 at 2 yrs has it, so I have to say it's not the diet.  I just don't even know what to do because knocking him out seems so drastic.  I had a wakeup call tho last week when I saw another bf'd kid in town who had apparently just had all his teeth pulled.  No help here, just commiseration.

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#18 of 52 Old 04-08-2011, 04:45 PM
 
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Yep.... for sure.  I am one that stays away from fluoride.  I was taught alternative methods for re-mineralization. See here... 

 

http://www.uncleharrys.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/528

 


Yes, I stay away from fluoride too, but I like that it is a mainstream article, and it's suggesting that many fillings aren't necessary.

 

The remineralization powder looks interesting. Any idea if I can get this in Canada?

 


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#19 of 52 Old 04-08-2011, 05:11 PM
 
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Get another opinion, compare teeth that "need" fillings. Ask if they're deep. Ask if there are any alternatives, like sealants. Trust your gut. I lived out of state for a few years and had to see another dentist. That dentist said I needed three fillings at the least. When I went back home, my regular dentist said my teeth were fine, and that I just have deep ridges, and since I don't have a history of decay (I have two minor cavities, and I'm 30) I was fine. I trust most dentists about as far as I can thow them, sorry to say.
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#20 of 52 Old 04-08-2011, 07:30 PM
 
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We chose to have the pediatric dentist use Versed in combination with laughing gas instead of GA and it worked well.  It made them loopy and out of it, so all that stuff that's involved with fixing the teeth can be done.  I know my kids would not have been able to sit still through all that.  I would question the need to have all the cavities fixed.  My dds left the front teeth alone in my 5 year old since they would be coming out soon anyway.  But using Versed probably would involve multiple sessions for you if a lot of work needs to be done because it only lasts for so long.  I will be looking into the diet mentioned above because since having our kids teeth fixed, we have been religiously taken good care of them, including fluoride, and less than 3 months later my daughter had a cavity big enough to be visible with the naked eye.  I should mention that we (used to) drink soda, but still.

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my dd had quite extensive decay.

 

when her dentist, that recommended mineral paste, xylitol, and had no problem with continued nursing so long as her teeth were brushed, told us that it was time to do something, we did.

 

she did have versed, and was a little woozy upon waking. they had me come back as soon as she was waking up and they also had her go in first as she was the youngest. i can't tell you how happy i am that we had them fixed. she can eat apples. her teeth don't hurt her. and her smile isn't broken and decayed.

 

this dentist was also willing to do fillings on my ds, four and a half at the time, using nitrous and novacaine in the office. parents were welcomed back into the procedure room and watching him was just amazing. it seriously took him about three minutes to drill and fill. when he gave the shots to ds he had this way of juggling and distracting ds so he barely even knew the shot had happened. having an excellent dentist really made all the difference.

 


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Yes, I stay away from fluoride too, but I like that it is a mainstream article, and it's suggesting that many fillings aren't necessary.

 

The remineralization powder looks interesting. Any idea if I can get this in Canada?

 

 

I am pretty positive you can order it from their direct website.  One of the most pure oils and ingredients that I can get in the states.  Austrailia is better.  But I dig that Uncle Harry's is a couple hours from me. 
 

 


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#23 of 52 Old 04-08-2011, 10:00 PM
 
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I had a wakeup call tho last week when I saw another bf'd kid in town who had apparently just had all his teeth pulled. 

 

That is just horrible.  That poor child.  I cannot imagine how that babes mama feels.... greensad.gif
 

 


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#24 of 52 Old 04-08-2011, 10:01 PM
 
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this dentist was also willing to do fillings on my ds, four and a half at the time, using nitrous and novacaine in the office. parents were welcomed back into the procedure room and watching him was just amazing. it seriously took him about three minutes to drill and fill. when he gave the shots to ds he had this way of juggling and distracting ds so he barely even knew the shot had happened. having an excellent dentist really made all the difference.

 


I am glad to hear of a positive experience without GA.  Dentistry is really an art.  In the mouth and out. 

 


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#25 of 52 Old 04-09-2011, 07:32 AM
 
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Just want to add that I was there for the procedures (we used Versed and laughing gas).  With the drug they constantly forget where they are and I had to keep saying everything is ok, watch the TV :-).  The dentist was getting frustrated because my ds would try to push the instruments with his tongue, but like I said, they are always forgetting.  So I would insist on being present to reassure them.

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#26 of 52 Old 04-09-2011, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, I am so happy about something... my DH is totally onboard for a lot of changes now. We're going to try grain-free as a family (I'm grain free but DH and DD aren't). I don't know if grains have anything to do with the cavities (probably only indirectly perhaps) but it's a good catalyst for change I've wanted to make for a while. Also, after reading comments here about making sure all of them need to be filled or whatever (and I know most dentists pretty much only know how to drill and fill, so the old "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" proverb applies) it brought to the surface a concern I had that I couldn't really articulate. I was feeling that we were going to get everything drilled and filled but not really *fixed*. 2 hours away from here is a holistic dentist who is seriously the best doctor I've ever had (of any specialty) and it's not just because he's holistic and woo-woo and therefore fits into my crunchy life view. I really was so impressed by his thorough knowledge, his thoroughness, the way he explained things to me (and he explained a LOT of things). So I asked DH what he thought about maybe taking DD to see him instead, and I was kind of tentative about it (and it's inconvenient, 2 hours away, and not that cheap either) but he was onboard. He too wanted to see someone we could trust, and if this guy tells me that X number of teeth need to be filled (and there is no doubt in my mind that at least 2 do... I can see them plain as day and I have low vision) then I will believe him. Even if he says all 10. I will believe him, because I trust him. I don't know or trust this new dentist, and honestly I think the majority of dentists don't know anything about health. Anyway, I'm just happy that, as awful as this is, it may be something that will change things overall for the better. Oh, DH is also onboard for switching to raw milk.

 

I personally suspect that the theory that the bacteria in our mouths are transferred (and thus, in a strange way, cavities might be sort of "contagious" - though that's simplifying of course) is a big factor. So I think our jobs are to help strengthen DD's immune system and body overall (and believe me, cavities are only part of the story, there's more). I don't know if we can heal any cavities, but I do hope to at least prevent them in the future, or at the very least, reduce new ones. This dentist we'll see believes it's possible to heal cavities, though in practice it probably happens only rarely, but at least he's a guy we can trust on that account. Let's say he looks at DD and says, yes, there's 10 cavities but 3 do not need to be drilled. But we need to watch them, and here's my recommendations for trying to heal them. So if we come back in 3 months or whatever, he'll look, and he'll actually tell us if there's any improvement, or at least if we've arrested the decay. Most dentists would probably laugh at us, or just look and say nope, gotta drill.

 

Sorry for the disjointed post.


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#27 of 52 Old 04-09-2011, 01:16 PM
 
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So glad to hear! 

 

Go raw milk!  I drank a ton when pregnant and I maybe have a swig a day now.  I am grain free as well. 

 

I wanted to add a chart that my ol boss used to pass out to new patients.  Completely makes sense. 

 

http://www.naturalworldhealing.com/Dentalinfo/toothorganchart.htm

 

Can't remember if I posted this link either.... been chatting in 2 forums about holistic DDS's.

 

http://www.iaomt.org/


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#28 of 52 Old 04-10-2011, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The holistic dentist has that chart! I had been telling him my knee had been hurting right around the same time my teeth were also inflamed. He showed me on the chart how one of the 3 inflamed teeth was associated with whichever knee it was (I already forgot right or left).

 

I had some cavities fixed up but not all (due to it being really tight money-wise). Last week both my knees started flaring up at the same time my mouth did. This has happened periodically (about every 2 years give or take) for decades.

 

Can't go to the dentist myself though... DD takes priority by far and this is going to drain our savings as it is. I hate that I can't prioritize my dental health, but I have to pay the mortgage first, and put good food on the table first, and so on. Sigh.


Homeschooling mama to 6 year old DD.

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#29 of 52 Old 04-10-2011, 07:21 AM
 
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I know that adult teeth are very different from baby teeth on decay.  Apparently baby teeth can decay a lot faster.  
Don't feel bad mama - we have never had any issues and my son needs 5 fillings and two crowns.  I cried and fretted and  I felt like a terrible mother too but I have come to accept and now I know that I have to be uber vigilant.  We have started to use fluoride toothpaste althought we eat TF etc...  

 

Oh and btw we drink Raw Milk, eat healthy, dont have junk food or cany etc...  sometimes it is just a predisposition. 

 

With my son they are just doing laughing gas - 3 separate procedures unless he does great and they can do it in two.  They say that the gas is enough for the vast majority of the patients.  They have tvs and the staff is awesome so I feel very secure on the fact that he will be ok and not traumatized.  He's excited that he can take his own movie to watch. 

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#30 of 52 Old 04-12-2011, 06:58 AM
 
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Hugs mama! It is so hard when you try to do right and your kid gets decay. My dd's teeth are looking great and cavities healed but she only had 3 to deal with. If more of it was worse, I would think of dental work for her. It depends. Interesting how her gluten and dairy allergy was what made her inflamed and she got worse cavities after adding more in. She is GF but not grain free. I am the only one who is grain free in the house. Hope it goes well!
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