We Are Seeing Some Success - Don't Give Up Mamas! - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 12 Old 05-28-2012, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Another update, probably unreasonably long again too. I've come across so many
sites where a parent posts about their child's struggles with ECC and what
they're going to try and then they never follow up. So, I make an effort to
follow-up because I know how frustrating it is to find answers.

Quick Fast Facts : Son diagnosed at 20 months with moderate tooth decay on 7-8
teeth and decalcification on 2-3 teeth. Breastfed, lip tie, big gut/digestion
problems, picky eater, very slow growth.

He's 22 months now and today I was reminded to look at the glass half full. I
was so disappointed that the decay on his upper teeth had not stopped. It
slowed significantly, but I wanted it to STOP given how fast it spreads. Your
replies of " Great News!" from my last update really boosted my spirit, so thank

So, here's the REALLY GOOD NEWS : The decay on all of of his bottom teeth is
gone. I thought it looked better yesterday, but I double checked in direct
sunlight today and with my husband, just to be sure. It's gone. GONE. I thought
I was going to pass out. I was so worried about his top teeth that I haven't
even looked at his bottom teeth in about 2 months. His two lower molars had big
cavities. Not the kind with the holes, but decay that was causing his teeth to
get shorter and shorter on the biting surface. The kind that corrodes and eats
away very quickly, brownish in color. He also had two or three other teeth on
the bottom that were decalcifying.

The two molars are about half as tall as they should be, but they're sealed over
with beautiful shiny hard white enamel. They almost look like dog teeth, very
jagged, but cavity free! His bottom teeth look beautiful!

Please don't give up, mamas. I know how heartbreaking this is. Very few people
really understand why ECC is so horrible. So many people in my family have said
" It's just some cavities ". We all know they're wrong because we've watched how
quickly it destroys teeth. Keep looking for answers that makes sense to you.
Keep thinking outside the box, I'm convinced that many times it's more than just
a dental issue.

Here's what we've done in detail below :

Starting March 20th we :

1. )Cell salts three times a day, two each 6x potency : calcium fluoride,
silica, calcium phosphate, and bioplasma

2. )Povidone Iodine two drops on his tooth brush, twice a day : Studies have
proven this kills the s. mutans bacteria.

3. )MI Paste

4. )Fermented Cod Liver Oil 3x a day

5. )Homemade Ghee or Butter Oil 3x a day

6. ) Occasional Xylitol and Colloidal Silver Spray

7. ) No grains at all, no exceptions. No Sugar. Very limited fruit, checked out
what fruits are acidic or not.

Within a few days we saw a big increase in appetite and a much happier baby.

A few weeks later we decided to really work on healing his gut. He was dx with
reflux and colic as a baby and has terrible digestion issues, any raw grain,
fruit or veggies comes out undigested. We knew he was lacking in vitamins and
minerals because of this. We added :

1. ) Raw kefir

2. ) Zinc - This increases stomach acid and appetite. It's very rare that we see
undigested food in his stool now. We chose a chelated powdered zinc and add to
food. Liquid zinc is great, but it makes myself and him vomit

3. ) Occasional digestive enzymes. For us, the zinc works perfectly, so we don't
use these a lot at all.

4. ) Powdered Calcium Phosphate in his food

5. ) Powdered Probiotic in his food.

6. ) Squiggle tooth builder toothpaste.

7. ) Pascalate Clay packed into the cavities at night time added about two weeks

8. ) About 3-4 weeks ago we increased his cell salts to 3 tablets, 3 times a

9. ) Added Magnesium in the form of baths because supplements can cause loose
stool. We also do nettle tea for the cal/mag ratio

10. ) A week ago we added St. Johns Wort tincture for liver support. We had
muscle testing done and this was what she said. I was/am skeptical, but within
24 hours of it we saw a ravenously hungry little boy with a happy demeanor.

After this we saw an even bigger increase in appetite and a strong desire to try
new foods. I'm told that children low on zinc also have a decreased sense of
smell, so food doesn't seem as appealing to them.

Very recently we decided :

1. ) To work on my gut issues. He's still breastfeeding and I heard a lactation
specialist say that my gut flora gets passed to him in my breastmilk and to get
my gut in balance and use my milk as a medicine. Makes sense to me

2. ) Homemade herbal remineralizing toothpaste.

So, that's it in a nutshell. It's a lot of stuff. But I am certain that the
iodine does work and in our son's case, healing his gut was/is crucial. As is
flooding his body with the elements needed to build strong teeth.

And we are pursuing a frenectomy. I'm now convinced this is the silver bullet.
Without it, his saliva cannot flow over his upper teeth properly and this is
important for remineralizing. Also, bacteria gets stuck in this upper pockets
and then leaches down onto the teeth. Thank you, Jessica for sharing your
frenectomy experience.

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#2 of 12 Old 05-31-2012, 09:32 PM
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Ok, I'm jumping on the bandwagon:


I've already been giving DD Green Pastures FCLO and BO, but I'm going to give her 3 small doses per day, instead of one large one.


I caved in and got all four cell salts from the health food store.  She loves them!  I guess cause of the lactose sweetness.


I also got a toddler probiotic for her, hopefully it'll get rid of the thrush and balance her gut issues.  I'll be giving her 1/4 teaspoon twice daily.


We're already into raw milk, but I'm trying to find kefir grains so we can get into that instead.


I wanted to get zinc and st.john's wort for appetite, but the nutritionist said to start off with the cell salts, because they might be enough.  She told me it's not good with babies to do too many things at once.


But I'm curious about the chelated zinc.  What brand are you using?  Is zinc citrate considered chelated?  please explain.


I'm not going to go the xylitol route, but I'm wondering about colloidal silver.  Please tell me more about.


Ditto for MI paste and pascalight clay.  Please explain.


whats teh recipe for the tooth powder?


I finally found someone for the frenectomy.  I have to travel up north to Ottawa, 8 hours away from my city.  I hope to do it within the next month or so.  He can take care of the lip tie and posterior tongue tie using laser without GA, which is great, thank God.


Please post the link for the Jessica's frenectomy experience.


Also, whichfruits are recommendd?  

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#3 of 12 Old 06-01-2012, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Once we did the cell salts, FMCL, and Butter Oil his appetite really did increase, so maybe hers will too. His demeanor also got much, much better. But, we caved and he had some grains and his appetite tanked again. Your nutritionist is right. If you do too many things at once, you won't know which one is working or if one is not tolerated well, you won't know which one it is. 


For zinc, I use Twinlab Natural Chelated 50 mg capsules. I open the capsule and put half in soft food. I believe BrainChild Nutritionals has just Liquid Chelated Zinc and the reviews have been wonderful on it, but he vomits it up. Did the same thing with another liquid zinc from Vitamin Shoppe. With liquid zinc, there really should be food int he stomach first and then the zinc itself needs to be mixed with food or water. However, a lot of liquid zincs say to take on an empty stomach for absorption, but I haven't found anyone who's bee able to to do that without vomiting. For us, we knew we had a zinc problem because he was chewing on his hands and books, etc, could not digest anything except animal protein, and he had white spots on his nails. Every child is different, in our case zinc helped a lot. 


MI Paste is a paste that's supposed to help with remineralization, but I'm not happy with the ingredients. But, I have to be honest and say he was using this regularly when his bottom teeth got better.


Pascalite clay is awesome. We haven't been using it that long at all because he didn't like me packing his cavities ( but he's used to it now ), but it has so many uses. As far as teeth goes, it creates an alkaline environment in the mouth and it's supposed to also draw bacteria, toxins out. I now consider the pascalite to be a must have in the medicine cabinet. I developed poison ivy last week and I made a paste of the clay and put it on and the poison ivy was hardly there the following morning and gone by that evening. I've had a weird itchy pimple like rash around my mouth, not a cold sore. I thought it was something I was eating or an irritant in my toothpaste, but nothing made it go away and it's been there for months. I made a paste with the clay and herbal tincture and let it sit until it dried and the rash was gone the next morning. So, I started putting it on my entire face and it's eliminated my acne, softened my skin and made my pores smaller. 



We make our own colloidal silver and it's about 7 PPM. Anything higher for simple ailments is really over kill, IMO. It's just not necessary. I'm a big fan of silver instead of antibiotics. I picked up the flu last year for the first time ever. My friend is a paramedic and had to get the flu shot for her job and the sill shot gave her the flu and also me. I started taking silver as soon as I felt bad and the same evening my fever and muscle aches were gone, it was a huge help. 


Jessica's experience is shared in a yahoo group called Kid's alternative teeth, I think. Lots of stories about tooth decay and lots of people who have used ozone with success. Her ENT sprayed a local on her 21 month's frenulm and then snipped it, less than 2 minutes. She says no biggie at all and she feels confident it played the biggest role in stopping tooth decay. 


Unfortunately I didn't write down amounts for the toothpaste, but I can tell you what I put in it. Coconut oil, xylitol, calcium phosphate powder, and then I made a very strong tea of : neem (antifungal, antibacterial). licorice (antibacterial), comfrey (fast regeneration of bone cells), peppermint extract ( antibacterial ), black walnut extract ( said to help with remineralization ), and xylitol.   I fine it works better than the squiggle toothpaste at keeping bacteria at bay. I don't have fuzzies on my teeth in the morning anymore and my teeth feel very smooth. Comfrey is controversial. So, make your own choices about that. There is one case of death linked to comfrey and my understanding is the person drank quarts of strong tea for years. However, many culture have used comfrey leaves internally for hundreds of years without issue. 


The St. Johns Wort was to help with his liver and again I would say very child is different and we also had muscle testing done on him.

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#4 of 12 Old 06-01-2012, 07:45 PM
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Ok, thanks for the info.  I have some more questions, but I'll give you my experience with DD today.


Hylands infamous 4, 2 pills three times today.


FCLO and BO, 3 times, but the last time she spit it out. The other two I did while she watched TV.  I hate letting her watch TV, but today and yesterday, God knows how many hours she watched, while I was doing my research online figuring things out about the whole liptie/tongue tie/decay issue.  Normally it's on like, once a month.




Pre:  1/4 tsp probiotic in water


1st meal:  2 pastured egg yolks with salt, pepper and butter


2nd meal:  about 2 tbsp homemade yogurt, with 1 tsp coconut oil, 1/2 flaxseed oil, 1/4 camu camu berry powder (for vit c), 1/4 tsp probiotic


Snack:  slice of raw chedder cheese


3rd meal:  2 tbsp bone broth with extra added gelatine, 1 tbsp kefir, 1/4 tsp probiotic


This is what she ate today, and this is actually pretty good.


Oh, I gave her st john's oil, 1/4 tsp.  I didn't buy the tincture, because it has alcohol in it, and we can't have it for religious reasons, but this one is in extra virgin olive oil.  But I thought st john's was for appetite? Am I wrong to give it to her?


I wanted to get chelated zinc today, but the kind I found in the store had HVP! (hydrolized vegetable protein, which is another term for MSG!).  So the lady offered to order for me homeopathic zinc, from a company different from Hyland's (Boiron).  Should I try that instead?  What do you think?


As for MI paste, I was turned off by the ingredients as well, especially given that it has glycerol, which is essentially glycerine, which isn't good, because it's going to coat the teeth.  I read somewhere that it takes more than 20 rinses to wash that stuff off, so I would think it wouldn't really help with reminerlization, so I'm going to pass that one.

However, pascalite clay. eh?  I think I want to try that stuff.  HOw do you put it on the teeth exactly?


I'm still weary of silver.  The lady today though recommended it to me, but a specific brand:  http://natural-immunogenics.com/faq_detail.php?FAQID=9.  But I think I"m scared cause it's a heavy metal, and don't understand that benefits of it.  Why not just use oil of oregano for example?


CC2, you're awesome.  Thanks so much for helping me out.  I hope we can both heal our children's cavities, God (Allah) willing.

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#5 of 12 Old 06-19-2012, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Acaatee, 


I somehow missed your reply! Sorry. 


It sounds like you've got quite the plan going on. :) 


The St. John's Wort was was recommended for my son by an herbalist who did muscle testing on him. It provides liver support and yes, it did help his appetite and demeanor. 


Don't worry about the television. It happens. :) We have 12 recorded episodes of Noggin's Oswald on DVD and I don't think our house would ever be clean or dinner prepared if I didn't have them. I have a very active little boy who has also learned how to open the front door. :) 


As far as the zinc, just do what makes you feel comfortable. We will not purchased vitamins with added ingredients in them. Zinc was tricky for us because the liquid is absorbed so well, but it makes him and me vomit. 


With the MI Paste, a believe glycerol is a vegetable derivative, not animal. The animal glycerin really is an issue and it really does coat the teeth. I don't think it's the same with vegetable glycerin. The St. Johns Wort tincture I made actually has vegetable glycerin in it as does the Squiggle toothpaste, I think what's important is to research it and know the source. For us personally, I believe the MI Paste does work. We were brushing it on with a toothbrush for a while and then read not to do that, to put it on with a clean finger and we could see recalcification happening about two weeks after we made those changes. 


Pascalite Clay is awesome. It's good for many things. It helped rid me of poison ivy in less than two days. It's also wonderful for acne. We purchased just the regular clay, not the tooth powder and made a play-doh type of ball and packed that around his teeth before bed. It looks funny. 


We do silver because we have a device at home that makes it and we can control the parts per million. We don't go over 7-10 PPM. My grandfather's been making it for 20 years and it's been invaluable in helping with sickness in our family. Oregano Oil is also good, strong stuff, but I haven't tried it. It's a no-no for nursing moms as it can dry up milk. 


Mikey had a new dental checkup today and he's gone from 7 cavities and 2-3 teeth with decalcification three months ago to now only 4 visible cavities and no teeth with decalcification. We're very pleased. He also has an appointment in July to have laser revision on his lip, tongue, and possible buccal frenum. I do have some before and after photos of how two front teeth, if I can figure out how to upload them, I'll do it. You can see how his teeth looked like sandpaper before, they were decalcifying, but in the second photo you can see the appear, harder, smoother, shinier. 

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#6 of 12 Old 06-19-2012, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope this helps. These were taken 14 days apart. The left shows decalcification. Notice how the teeth appear scratchy? See the darker lines running from top to bottom on the teeth? That's also enamel loss and decay. The icky tooth next to it started that way and went bad quickly. But, in the other photo you can see the enamel texture is much better, the dark lines are almost gone. Now, pay attention to the white lines alone the gumline in the first photo. That is early decay. Compare it to the other photo. Do you see the decrease? You'll notice some of the white lines in the first one are actually pointing downward. In the second one they're going away. I hope this helps. I know it helps to see pictures. Big changes in only two weeks! 

mikey lip tie.JPGmikey remineralization.JPG

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#7 of 12 Old 06-21-2012, 09:59 PM
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Thank you so much for answering my questions.  I want to give you an update:
10 days after starting the regimen above, DD gained a full pound, which was very encouraging.  I feel guilty however, because I've been feeding her with the syringe, whether the cod liver oil, the coddled egg yolks, etc.  Sometimes she eats, sometimes I have to distract with sights and sounds and then quickly get a bite into her mouth.  I'm desperate though to get her weight up and hopefully cure her cavities.
I hope to order the pascalite tomorrow, I found a Canadian site that sells it.
I got the homeopathic zinc yesterday, but it's 80 pellets for almost $9, and the instructions say to give 5 pellets 3x daily.  I don't know if it's goint to be feasible financially, and may have to resort to another kind of zinc.
We went to Ottawa and got the frenectomy done.  I was right, she had a class III lip tie and a posterior tongue tie.  Very difficult 5 minutes for her, but it was for the best.  I held her, restraining her arms, an assistant held her legs, and the other held her head while the dentist performed the laser frenectomy.  I felt so guilty, but after when we went with the assistant to the other room to go over the post-op instructions, she saw a bus outside and said "bus bye!" as her and I always do at home, so that was a relief for me.  We have the follow up next Wednesday.  We have to stretch both areas 6 times daily to prevent regrowth.  
Dentist recommended night weaning, but I just can't take that step it, nor can she.  People have been nursing for thousands of years, I just don't believe that milk causes the cavities.  If it were the case, why are the caries restricted to the top four? I just don't get it.
I'm really leaning towards her having gut issues, because she's never drank juice, never had candy, yet has these cavities.  There is another discussion where the mother did the exact same thing, but in the end had to extract her son's teeth, here's the link.  http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1240524/success-stories-from-moms-who-chose-not-to-fix-cavities-in-baby-teeth/20
See post 24.
I'm wondering if maybe her DS had gut issues, which interfered with nutrient absorption.  Because I mean same thing with DD, I know she didn't eat much, but anything she did eat was healthy and I've been giviing her CLO and BO for a year.  The lactation consultant said that the exact reason why is unknown, but many times tongue/lip tie and gut issues go hand in hand.
So now, I'm thinking maybe her and I have to go on the GAPS diet.  But I'm not sure.  So I'm wondering, what are the things you are doing to heal your gut and your DS's?
Another question, her stools have become much softer and more diarrhea like since the intro of kefir and probiotic, so I've backed off a bit.  How much do you give your DS of them per day?
I'm goint to post 3 photos of DD's teeth, I think I notice some of the decay getting worse, especially on the left central incisor.  I felt so heatbroken when I saw that.  Sometimes I think it's the lighting, but then sometimes I think it really is true.
I just don't know what to do....
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#8 of 12 Old 06-21-2012, 10:12 PM
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First photo was taken April 26th, when I first discovered the cavities.

Second photo taken June 5th.

Third and fourth taken June 20 two days post-frenectomy.  They have different lighting.  In the third, it looks like the cavities are worse, while the last photo it doesn't look too bad.






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#9 of 12 Old 06-21-2012, 10:46 PM
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I notice a lot of plaque in this pictures? Why not brush with electric toothbrush? It will really reduced plagues, gingivitis and future cavities.

Can someone explain to me why is is seem like a good idea to use 30 different and unproven  remedies and methods at once in a  child with severr dental issues for week at the time, rather then going to a regular dentist? You can fix his entire mouth in three painless visits.

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#10 of 12 Old 06-22-2012, 09:59 AM
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That's not plaque, that's decalcification.


Drilling and filling cavities doesn't solve the problem.  If the eyes are the window to the soul, teeth are the window to your health. I'm not interested in any quick fixes.


And for the record, I took her to the dentist when I first saw the white lines and was told that they must have developed in utero.  And you want me to put my trust in conventional medicine?


If it wasn't for me checking periodically, the decay would have gone unnoticed till it got really bad.

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#11 of 12 Old 06-22-2012, 06:34 PM
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I simply cleaned my kids teeth after nursing of meals with cloths since the first tooth appeared. Lactose is a sugar which is present in breast milk. If the breastmilk sits on the teeth is is just as bad  as juice sugar vise and promotes cavities.


  Maybe you have bad dentist. My sons have been going to an excellent dentist since age 12 months. Cleaning every 6 months.  Tooth brushing every morning and evening plus flossing. We had very few cavities that were always discovered super early and immediately filled. One crown between both of them.


It really seems that electrical toothbrush with appropriate tooth paste makes a huge difference.



Actually, having cavities and gingivitis has negative effect on the overall health including cardiovascular health  It is not something to have around for months or eyes. By having ongoing infection in teeth and gum, one puts overall health at risk.

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#12 of 12 Old 06-22-2012, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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That's not plaque, it's decalcification. It can't be brushed away. Having the right toothbrush doesn't help. ECC is usually a combination of several things that create the perfect storm. 


Breast milk is not as bad as sugar, but in the right environment ( say with a lip tie where saliva can't flow ) it can create some issues. People have breastfed on demand for thousands of years and cavities in small children is relatively new ( the past 200 or so years in first world countries )


You wouldn't believe how many bad dentists and pediatricians there are out there. My son's pediatrician and his dentist said no cavities but I knew they were wrong. Ten days later I found holistic dentist and we received the 7 cavity diagnosis. It isn't a question of brushing, many mothers who's babies or small toddlers end up with ECC practice regular oral hygiene. An electric toothbrush on weak enamel may not be ideal. 


Here are some links regarding cause of ECC to help you understand a bit more. ECC is very different that what you and I would have as an adult because oftentimes little ones don't have enough good bacteria in their mouth to fight off the bad. In my son's case, we had the perfect storm of opportunity for it. These are just a few. Vitamin deficiency during pregnancy can cause poorly formed enamel. Gut imbalance creates a situation where the body can't absorb vital nutrients, also creating a weaker enamel. It's not a question of brushing, in many many cases.










As far as different treatment methods, I would absolutely be more open to visiting a holistic dentist for treatment, if my son was older. It's very difficult to find a dentist that will treat babies and toddler without putting them completely under, sometimes in a hospital. I've not taken my son to 3 dentists and he'll be seeing a 4th in three weeks. We're currently trying to find a dentist that will do Heal Ozone using no sedation or a very mild oral sedative, as the treatment is painless. The problem that can arise with filling teeth in little littles ones with ECC is the filling can fall out. Not always, mind you. But if the bacteria is rampant, the decay will spread. 


What I'm doing isn't with scientific merit. Everyone was either recommended by our dentist or approved by him, with the exception of the Pascalite Clay and all he said was it couldn't hurt. I've now come across several moms in the this forum and one outside that say they healed a cavity or halted decay with cell salts and pascalite clay. Here are some more links to help you out : 









Be rest assured, no mother takes ECC lightly. It's is devastating. We spend hours online looking for answers. We have bad dreams about our child's teeth crumbling. For our family, if there is an abscess that doesn't respond to antibiotics or pain present, then we would consider moving for ward with traditional dental work. But, there's not and we're seeing improvement with these measures. I don't think there are many moms that would let there child's teeth just rot completely out of their mouth without medical intervention. Yes, having ACTIVE cavities can have an overall negative effect on health. 


I hope that helps you see where we're coming from. 


Acaatee! So glad she had the revision! Our is scheduled for July 13th and I'm excited for our son. I can't wait to hear how his verbal skills improve. He's always been a very verbal little boy and at such a young age, but it's clear he can't say some words and struggles with others. Taking care of the restricted tongue movement should help. How did she do afterwards? Was she sore? Cranky? My sister may be scheduling a family barbecue afterwards so everyone can come and visit with us, but if he's going to be sore, I'm not sure if that's a good idea. The dentist we're using is about 8.5 hours away from us, but near family. 


I see what you mean about her teeth looking worse for wear. In our experience, it got worse before it got better and I started to really worry and then after about 2 -2.5 months of what we're doing, the changes started coming. Just keep doing what you're doing with the pictures to help you gauge results, whether good or bad. Does she normally do dairy without issue? What kind of probiotic are you using? SO HAPPY about her weight gain! That's a big accomplishment and I'm sure made you feel better. Mikey gained a lot the first month too. We did get a flouride varnish a few days ago. I've spent a lot of time reading about and ultimately decide it would be a good thing to do to buy us time finding a dentist that will do heal ozone on him without sedation. I'm not sure if we're actually going to do heal ozone, but we absolutely need to find one in case we decide we want to, given how quickly things can get worse. 

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