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#301 of 850 Old 03-05-2007, 02:04 PM
 
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So, the Takara and Body Pure foot patches worked somewhat, but you didn't think they were effective, so you tried the Kinotakara, which were too strong for you all, and so you think that no one should try any of them? I fail to understand why they all should be condemned, just because there are side effects at too strong a dose. Opiates are still effective pain relievers, even if some people shoot heroin and fall down. I also fail to understand why DMSA or NCD are considered natural. I do understand that there are naturally occurring zeolites, but that NCD is laboratory made, and that no one really knows what it is doing at a cellular level in vivo, no matter what the manufacturer claims about its cellular structure in vitro. I have read alot of Andy Cutler's work on the Yahoo groups, and at Onibasu. I will read his book if they ever get it back at the library. But it seems to me that everyone is ingesting chemicals, and having serious side effects. Why is it not okay to have side effects from a natural product (chlorella, foot patches) but it's okay from a commercial one? Aren't all these side effects evidence that you all have not maximized your bodies detox pathways prior to the metals pulling DRUGS that you all are taking? I understand why one would risk all side effects for an autistic kid's recovery, but I just don't get why mamas who won't eat a lollipop will injest all these substances, and then smile through the headache.
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#302 of 850 Old 03-06-2007, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow, quite the response just because I disagreed with you that the foot patches were safe

I had felt that some of this was already covered between the two of us in the chelation thread from a couple weeks ago over in TF :

Your first post :

I have been reading the chelation thread in the Dental forum, but not chiming in. My family has lead poisoning rather than mercury. Obviously, I have been obsessively reading about chelation since it happened. I favor a whole foods approach to the issue, not a chemical one. DMSA is a serious chemical, Boyd Haley considers it a neurotoxin, I believe. To me, it seems akin to shaking my china cabinet in order to get the china out- faster than carefully removing each piece, but stuff breaks. If you want to minimize breakage, you would pad the surrounding areas, the way Andy Cutler recommends supplements to try to optimize the body's natural detox pathways. But stuff could still break. At any rate, dd is only now 3.5 and probably able to communicate headache symptoms, but it's too scary. The body has multiple detox pathways. We work on optimizing the gut, and liver support when she will . I do think that the metallothionen pathway information on www.alternativementalhealth.com , and zinc optimization, help us. Next we are going to work on the skin- starting with bentonite clay baths, and hopefully I can get her to drink some clay water. I wish we could afford foot patches. I do not think that she would benefit from sauna, as she hates the heat. I would probably benefit from it, though. As our exposure was continuous over the course of 2 years (lead paint in substandard rental housing), we are all slowly pushing the lead out of our bones. I am nursing both kids- dd2 is nearly 9months and certainly some goes in the breast milk. I'm starting to consider the idea that subtle measures, like bentonite baths, might not be contraindicated for me, as they would not likely challenge much more lead out of the bones, but more likely draw out the circulating lead, which is in danger of getting into the breastmilk anyway.
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My response post:

True that DMSA is a chemical and can do it's own damage. That is why it took me so many months to begin chelating. I hated the thought of taking any chemicals into my body. I finally got to the point where it was choosing the lesser of two evils between taking DMSA or keeping the mercury. I'm glad that I started the DMSA because of the incredible healing that has taken place in my body. For me, stopping the DMSA and using NCD instead was a good switch. If I had to do it all over I'd just use the NCD instead of the DMSA. I think a decision to chelate has to be taken very seriously like deciding whether or not to vaccinate. There is so much info/research to pour through and it is a very personal decision. Supporting the body's detox pathways is key regardless of whether or not one uses chelating agents.

Your reply post :

Okay, I think it might be EDTA that Haley considers a neurotoxin, not DMSA. I am well aware that DMSA chelates lead- I did say I have been researching this for years. We are too poor for all that's involved, and she is high-functioning so it's difficult to prove at this point, in order to sue the landlady. Lead's effects are more subtle than mercury's, and she is 'ahead' of the vaccine laden formula and fast food gobbling set, even with the poisoning.

**I respected what you said in your posts. You had researched and were doing the most you could that you felt was safe with your available resources. I also respected the fact that you made an error in confusing EDTA and DMSA, but then came back to change your statement.

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Originally Posted by provocativa View Post
So, the Takara and Body Pure foot patches worked somewhat, but you didn't think they were effective, so you tried the Kinotakara, which were too strong for you all, and so you think that no one should try any of them? I fail to understand why they all should be condemned, just because there are side effects at too strong a dose. Opiates are still effective pain relievers, even if some people shoot heroin and fall down.
This was my response :
I'd like to disagree that they are low risk. Personally I would never use them again...IMO the foot patches removed some of the mercury or perhaps just stirred it up and increased her plasma levels and redistribution thus causing the stuttering. Another mama who posted on this thread (probably 4-5 pages back?) tasted metal in her mouth the first time she used the patches and did not repeat them.
Some parents on the autism/ncd yahoo group do use them. This is just my experience and it was quite frightening at the time. I'm very thankful the NCD was effective with dd.

I simply disagreed with you, told of our experience with them, and stated that I would not use them again. I also stated that others with toxicity issues use them. I in no way condemned them, but simply gave my disagreement and our account. I found it interesting that you took such offense to this considering that YOU HAVE NOT USED THE PRODUCT according to your post in TF forum. I found it concerning that you were suggesting a product to use with heavy metal toxicity that you had no personal experience with and did not give any links or research. I rarely even pay attention to those kind of suggestions by researching them. I usually figure that someone is just regurgitating what they've read.
I may not have explained my thoughts well concerning the foot patches. IMO if a patch with a stronger negative ion pull seems to be causing mobilization of the mercury then the same thing is probably happening at a lesser strength, but not at a point that the symptoms of mobilization are detectable. It causes me concern as to whether the patches with lesser negative ion pull are actually removing the mercury or just moving it around and freeing it for redistribution. Might be fine for other toxins. As previously stated, my concern was the mercury.

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Originally Posted by provocativa View Post
I also fail to understand why DMSA or NCD are considered natural. I do understand that there are naturally occurring zeolites, but that NCD is laboratory made, and that no one really knows what it is doing at a cellular level in vivo, no matter what the manufacturer claims about its cellular structure in vitro..
Could you please point out anywhere in this thread where anyone labled DMSA as a natural form of chealation? No one has to my best recollection. I even addressed this in my post that I brought over from the TF forum. Yes, NCD is altered by Waiora. It is not "made" by the company in a laboratory. I just got off the phone with them to double check that this was correct. They stated that they do obtain the zeolite from natural sources and it is not a synthetic product. They heat it to 900 deg and remove all the heavy metals that the mineral has already absorbed and collected in the honeycomb structure with the exception of aluminum that they claim will not exchange. Could you give me the site/source where you found it stated that NCD is laboratory made? I'm curious to look at that.

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Originally Posted by provocativa View Post
I have read alot of Andy Cutler's work on the Yahoo groups, and at Onibasu. I will read his book if they ever get it back at the library.
I think most here would agree that looking at Cutler's posts on yahoo or onibasu is not the same or as complete as reading his books.



Quote:
Originally Posted by provocativa View Post
But it seems to me that everyone is ingesting chemicals, and having serious side effects. Why is it not okay to have side effects from a natural product (chlorella, foot patches) but it's okay from a commercial one? Aren't all these side effects evidence that you all have not maximized your bodies detox pathways prior to the metals pulling DRUGS that you all are taking? I understand why one would risk all side effects for an autistic kid's recovery, but I just don't get why mamas who won't eat a lollipop will injest all these substances, and then smile through the headache.
Chlorella seems to have been discussed at least once a month on this thread by myself and others. The concerns are in Cutler's book and on the yahoo/onibasu that you have already reviewed. By all means, use these products if you care to. We are simply trying to provide information and our personal experiences with these products. As always, I encourage others to research until they are satisfied and try to provide links and information.
You have stated that you are not mercury toxic. You judge us for our selection of treatments for an issue that you do not understand by personal experience, but only from literature review! Are you serious? I don't know what the symptoms of your lead toxicity are since you didn't offer this information. I hope that for your sake they're just elevated numbers without any symptoms.
As I stated before, improving detox pathways is and excellent first idea. However, mercury disrupts glutathione detox pathways which are essential to remove mercury from the body :

http://notmercury.blogspot.com/2006/...hy-should.html

Thus, attempts to improve natural detox pathways are always beneficial, but not enough to remove a signifcant amount of mercury from a toxic individual.

For some of us on this thread the mercury toxicity has been nothing but frightening. In my late 20s I started having short term mermory problems, stuttering, slurred speech, difficulty with word selection, migraines, social anxiety and digestive issues. Can you imagining how this has been for some of us and yet you question why we would want to get this toxic heavy metal out of our bodies? Let's see, headache (due to redistribution of mercury from taking too much chelator or going to fast) and temporary worsening of some symptoms (depending on level of toxicity) or progressing neurological system and emotional issues just to name a couple. Hmmm... easy choice for me. They have done autopsies on the brains of alzheimer patients and found that they are riddled with mercury much like the brains of autistic patients. I don't think I want to keep the mercury in my brain and organs to develop something akin to autism of old age.
Honestly, I don't mean to be offensive, but I don't think you have a realistic understanding of mercury toxicity because you don't suffer from it. I don't have a good understanding of lead toxicity. I personally don't believe in chemo, but I've never had ca either. I don't know what it is like and you can bet that I'd never have the balls to tell someone with ca that I think they're wrong to do chemo if that is the choice they made. I don't know the fear or what they're dealing with emotionally. I have no idea what it is to be in their shoes.
I found your post to be judgemental and inflammatory. I hope you feel welcome to disagree and offer other means of chelation/detox that can be discussed. I would like to ask you to not make more inflammatory posts as I think this is a good thread for others to get information and sites to research along with view our experiences and posted UTMs. This is a good place for support through the chealtion process for many of us. I would hate to see the moderators lock this thread becaue we possibly violate UA.
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#303 of 850 Old 03-06-2007, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How is everybody doing this week? I know that a few mamas just started with NCD or DMSA in the past few weeks.
Things are good here. Trying to get everything together to move back to Colorado in April so we'll see how much memory and thought process improvement I've had.
I just started Sierra on Brainchild vitamins/mineral because she just isn't getting what she needs from nutrient dense foods due to her stomach issues. We just sent off thyroid hormone levels because Dr. Hanshew is convinced that the mercury is disrupting 5'-deiodinase which is necessary to convert T4 to T3 and thus causing the gastroparesis. I have found some literature on line to support this. DH and I need to research synthetic T3 supplementation because we're not even sure if we'll give it. She has been on the Candex in just a tsp of water at 5am every morning for a little over two weeks now. Her umbilicus has not been red nor have the area behind her ears been weepy and open for about a week and a half now. Still too soon to really know with her. Once I get her up to par with the Brainchild vits I'll start the TD-ALA, but I don't want to start too much at once. I didn't have yeast problems with ALA, but many of the kids on the spectrum do so I want to let the Candex do it's work before starting the ALA.
Hope everyone is doing well.
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#304 of 850 Old 03-07-2007, 12:34 AM
 
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We just sent off thyroid hormone levels because Dr. Hanshew is convinced that the mercury is disrupting 5'-deiodinase which is necessary to convert T4 to T3 and thus causing the gastroparesis. I have found some literature on line to support this. DH and I need to research synthetic T3 supplementation because we're not even sure if we'll give it.
DS is being evaulated for the same issue:
www.wilsonstemperaturesyndrome.com

I'm reading the eBook right now, it's fascinating, and I'm pretty sure I have it... MED (Multiple Enzyme Dysfunction) and accumulation of RT3 (Reverse T3) too. I have low AM temps but haven't done the 3x/day as Wilson recommends. I'm also rather freaked out at giving DS T3 but it's not supposed to be forever. Of course we have the Hg issue which is notorious for knocking out the thyroid... is that how, it interferes with the enzyme? Have you taken Sierra's temps?

And DS is the mix of ancestry that is most likely to have it: Scots, Irish and Native American.
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#305 of 850 Old 03-07-2007, 12:56 AM
 
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This may be a bit OT (and I don't want to derail this thread, so if you feel this question would be better posted somewhere else LMK), but provacativa's post made me think: how does a person know if something they are doing to heal/improve nutrition/etc is causing die-off/detox/healing symptoms or symptoms due to a reaction? For example, I was doing a candida diet for several months. After breakfast I almost always felt tired. I figured it was due to die-off, but in hindsight, it was actually due to a reaction to food chemicals called amines (found in aged, browned/grilled, and fermented foods) that were very high in my typical breakfast. Since die-off/detox reactions and negative reactions tend to be the same, how can a person figure out which type of reaction they're having?
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#306 of 850 Old 03-07-2007, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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DS is being evaulated for the same issue:
www.wilsonstemperaturesyndrome.com

I'm reading the eBook right now, it's fascinating, and I'm pretty sure I have it... MED (Multiple Enzyme Dysfunction) and accumulation of RT3 (Reverse T3) too. I have low AM temps but haven't done the 3x/day as Wilson recommends. I'm also rather freaked out at giving DS T3 but it's not supposed to be forever. Of course we have the Hg issue which is notorious for knocking out the thyroid... is that how, it interferes with the enzyme? Have you taken Sierra's temps?

And DS is the mix of ancestry that is most likely to have it: Scots, Irish and Native American.
Hey you! Been meaning to email you. I hope everything is still good with Luke. I had no clue Luke had NA in him like Sierra. She also has Irish. I'm going to read that link and find out what ancestry has to do with this. You know, she always runs hot - around 99 and is very sweaty. She has the cold clammy hands and feet like me which is common with hg tox as listed in AI. I'll have to do first am temps on her for a few days and get back to you. I'll check mine out. We're still on Lugols, but it hasn't made a difference and have been on it for over a month. This makes me think Dr. Lyn is right about the T3. The T3 won't be forever, just until we get enough mercury out too get things working again.



O.k. I just looked at the site and am printing off the temp charts. I'll do it for three days and get back to you. We both tend to run hot, but I'll try it.
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#307 of 850 Old 03-07-2007, 01:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This may be a bit OT (and I don't want to derail this thread, so if you feel this question would be better posted somewhere else LMK), but provacativa's post made me think: how does a person know if something they are doing to heal/improve nutrition/etc is causing die-off/detox/healing symptoms or symptoms due to a reaction? For example, I was doing a candida diet for several months. After breakfast I almost always felt tired. I figured it was due to die-off, but in hindsight, it was actually due to a reaction to food chemicals called amines (found in aged, browned/grilled, and fermented foods) that were very high in my typical breakfast. Since die-off/detox reactions and negative reactions tend to be the same, how can a person figure out which type of reaction they're having?
That is an excellent question and we've been dealing with that too. Gosh, I don't know what to tell you, but keep learning about your body as depressing as that sounds. We all react so differently that it is hard to say. I've been trying to distinguish between symptoms of Sierra's yeast growth and die-off for 2 years and it can be pretty darn tricky. I'm getting better at it as time passes, but sometimes I just stand there perplexed by her and I can't blame it on my recovering mercury brain.
Just a couple weeks ago I started having some of my mercury tox symptoms back in a slight manner and I couldn't figure out what was going on. I had not missed an ALA dose. My bo was increased again which is always my detoxing symptom. I was puzzled for a couple days. Then I realized that the symptoms started the day I added an extra large salad to my diet and started 8-10 oz of carrot/kale juice again. IMO the extra greens esp. in the juice form were cleansing my cells and allowing more mercury release. Taking extra NCD for a couple days cleared this up quickly. I've been keeping the extra green and juice each day and the symptoms are gone despite going back to my normal NCD dose. The stink is almost gone too so I guess my body has had it's benefit from the juicing/veggie detox. See, I'm still trying to figure it out too.
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#308 of 850 Old 03-07-2007, 03:35 AM
 
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So, the Takara and Body Pure foot patches worked somewhat, but you didn't think they were effective, so you tried the Kinotakara, which were too strong for you all, and so you think that no one should try any of them? I fail to understand why they all should be condemned, just because there are side effects at too strong a dose. Opiates are still effective pain relievers, even if some people shoot heroin and fall down. I also fail to understand why DMSA or NCD are considered natural. I do understand that there are naturally occurring zeolites, but that NCD is laboratory made, and that no one really knows what it is doing at a cellular level in vivo, no matter what the manufacturer claims about its cellular structure in vitro. I have read alot of Andy Cutler's work on the Yahoo groups, and at Onibasu. I will read his book if they ever get it back at the library. But it seems to me that everyone is ingesting chemicals, and having serious side effects. Why is it not okay to have side effects from a natural product (chlorella, foot patches) but it's okay from a commercial one? Aren't all these side effects evidence that you all have not maximized your bodies detox pathways prior to the metals pulling DRUGS that you all are taking? I understand why one would risk all side effects for an autistic kid's recovery, but I just don't get why mamas who won't eat a lollipop will injest all these substances, and then smile through the headache.
provocativa, I don't understand why this is so irking to you. Eat your lollipops and use footpads, and I will not judge you. If you are getting good results, then please share with us! We are not experts, we are only trying to do the best we can with the info that we have. Some of us, like moneca, have proven that they can do their homework, and I feel pretty confident that she's researched things pretty thoroughly after her continued support over the past year.

If you do have some information that can be helpful, again I implore you to share. Until some solid scientific trials come out for the best method to chelate heavy metals with the least toxic effects, we only have our experiences to go on. And until NCD came to the forefront, then Andy Cutler's protocol was it.
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#309 of 850 Old 03-07-2007, 04:51 PM
 
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I started giving my 14 month old Liver Life (she's up to 7 drops a day) about 10 days ago. Today I noticed that her tongue has a bit of a white coating to it (it's not thrush) that hasn't been there in the past. Could the Liver Life cause this? Also, after several weeks of major sleep issues, she's suddenly started sleeping much better--she actually slept almost 8 hours straight last night! Could that be due to the Liver Life as well?
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#310 of 850 Old 03-07-2007, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I started giving my 14 month old Liver Life (she's up to 7 drops a day) about 10 days ago. Today I noticed that her tongue has a bit of a white coating to it (it's not thrush) that hasn't been there in the past. Could the Liver Life cause this? Also, after several weeks of major sleep issues, she's suddenly started sleeping much better--she actually slept almost 8 hours straight last night! Could that be due to the Liver Life as well?
Well, Bioray claims that LL helps the liver to detox and work more effectively. This, they claim, will help the body to utilize minerals and vitamins more efficiently. Since you're sure the white coating isn't thrush it could be a sign of detox. When doing the Master Cleanse many people on the MC discussion board spoke of a white coating the the tounge would have at the beginning of detox. It seemed that how long it stayed depended on the individual's degree of toxicity. I had the coating the first few days on the MC and then it was gone. It could be a sign of her body detoxing, but this is just a guess on my part.
If her liver is finally able to properly detox (well, just starting to as the LL doesn't work overnight, but is a continuous healing process) then she may be getting some toxins, bacteria, or yeast out of her system and thus allowing her to sleep at night. How exciting that you've seen such an improvement in sleeping so quickly. Sierra has done so well with it that I took her to max dose for her age (15 drops 2 x per day) without any problems . I plan to keep her on this as the healing is continual and I know the liver needs support through the current NCD and TD-ALA that I will soon begin.
There is a mama on Yahoo NCD/AUTISM that also works for Bioray. She could give you more info than just my guesses. Her name is Tami Wilkin and her email follows : [email protected] You could also call her if you'd rather. She is always more than glad to help and she has a son on the spectrum that she has recovered.
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#311 of 850 Old 03-07-2007, 11:28 PM
 
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I am reading through the thread, slowly, and getting some good info. I do have a question I haven't found an answer for yet, and I hope you mamas can help me.

How does one go about chelating with small kids? DS2 is five, almost six, and partially vaxed. He has behavioral issues, SID, and other emotional challenges. We've seen a lot of improvement with diet changes over the past few years. Now, however, I'm thinking that chelating would help, but I'm not sure how to start. In fact, I need a primer of some sort. Is there something online or a book that I should start with?

Okay, so it was more than one question.
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#312 of 850 Old 03-08-2007, 01:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am reading through the thread, slowly, and getting some good info. I do have a question I haven't found an answer for yet, and I hope you mamas can help me.

How does one go about chelating with small kids? DS2 is five, almost six, and partially vaxed. He has behavioral issues, SID, and other emotional challenges. We've seen a lot of improvement with diet changes over the past few years. Now, however, I'm thinking that chelating would help, but I'm not sure how to start. In fact, I need a primer of some sort. Is there something online or a book that I should start with?

Okay, so it was more than one question.
If you're looking at traditional chelators like DMSA I wouldn't try this without a doc to monitor him and run the appropriate labs. If you keep reading you'll see different options and see the nontraditional approach that I took with my dd and her UTM results.
If you decide to go the Andy Cutler route with DMSA/ALA you can visit this yahoo group : http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/
If you decide to look into the nontraditional detox/chelator NCD you can visit this yahoo group : http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...guid=227735619
As you read you'll see sites that you can visit to increase your knowledge base. The book Amalgam Illness by Andy Cutler is mentioned and his site is www.noamalgam.com The book covers his protocol and gives lots of good info about mercury toxicity. Most of the parents on the yahoo groups have children on the spectrum and are excellent sources of information.
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#313 of 850 Old 03-08-2007, 07:36 PM
 
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How is everybody doing this week? I know that a few mamas just started with NCD or DMSA in the past few weeks.
I've been slowly increasing my NCD dosage and continuing to take the Liver Life. I feel awesome and I'm sleeping much better already. I'm really thirsty though. I know its the NCD. I'm not drinking enough water. I'm having 2 more amalgams removed next week. My mercury toxicity symptoms really peaked when I had my first 2 removed. I'm nervous but am glad I have the NCD this time around.
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#314 of 850 Old 03-09-2007, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I've been slowly increasing my NCD dosage and continuing to take the Liver Life. I feel awesome and I'm sleeping much better already. I'm really thirsty though. I know its the NCD. I'm not drinking enough water. I'm having 2 more amalgams removed next week. My mercury toxicity symptoms really peaked when I had my first 2 removed. I'm nervous but am glad I have the NCD this time around.
Remember that extra water is suggested anytime you detox because it helps flush things out of your body as opposed to just letting them sit around. Dr. Hanshew instructs that you can take the NCD every four hours if need be. I took 15 drops ever four hours times four doses for the challenge and had no issues. I know you're not up to this dose and I wouldn't rush it, but you could take an amount you're comfortable with every four hours with amalgam removal to help clean up. You could also increase your sodium ascorbate or amla to bowel limit the day of removal and a few after to help clean up. Just thoughts I'm having...
Congrats on the good results.
Where are you in the southeast?
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#315 of 850 Old 03-09-2007, 02:16 AM
 
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DD and I are doing liverlife and are noticing nothing. She has been at 15 drops 2x a day for about a week so we have been doing this about a month. She isn't any worse she isn't any better. No reactions. Her dark eye circles are just as bad. She has gotten 2 colds in this time (10 since the begining of sept so this is normal for her). Does this mean it isn't working? Do we need to be doing something else? We mailed our pee to Paris a week ago so I don't expect to hear back for another week or so.

thoughts?

Patty wife to Jason Mama to Wisteria (6) and Junia (2)
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#316 of 850 Old 03-09-2007, 02:08 PM
 
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Hey you! Been meaning to email you. I hope everything is still good with Luke. I had no clue Luke had NA in him like Sierra. She also has Irish. I'm going to read that link and find out what ancestry has to do with this. You know, she always runs hot - around 99 and is very sweaty. She has the cold clammy hands and feet like me which is common with hg tox as listed in AI. I'll have to do first am temps on her for a few days and get back to you. I'll check mine out. We're still on Lugols, but it hasn't made a difference and have been on it for over a month. This makes me think Dr. Lyn is right about the T3. The T3 won't be forever, just until we get enough mercury out too get things working again.



O.k. I just looked at the site and am printing off the temp charts. I'll do it for three days and get back to you. We both tend to run hot, but I'll try it.


Ancestry is connected in that certain populations that have been thru starvation apparently pass on metabolisms that slow down as a survival mechanism. And then high stress and/or chronic very restrictive dieting these days can trigger it. (that was my 20's!)

My understanding is high temps mean plenty of T3. Although up and down temps (hot and cold) can be an issue too. Unstable temps can effect enzymes too. Did she have low T3 on a blood test?

Checking temps 3x day at 10AM, 1PM, 4PM (if you wake at 7AM) is recommended as morning temps tend to be a bit low, daytime temps are more indicative apparently. I'm getting ranges between 97.8 and 98.2... not good.)
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#317 of 850 Old 03-09-2007, 02:10 PM
 
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This may be a bit OT (and I don't want to derail this thread, so if you feel this question would be better posted somewhere else LMK), but provacativa's post made me think: how does a person know if something they are doing to heal/improve nutrition/etc is causing die-off/detox/healing symptoms or symptoms due to a reaction? For example, I was doing a candida diet for several months. After breakfast I almost always felt tired. I figured it was due to die-off, but in hindsight, it was actually due to a reaction to food chemicals called amines (found in aged, browned/grilled, and fermented foods) that were very high in my typical breakfast. Since die-off/detox reactions and negative reactions tend to be the same, how can a person figure out which type of reaction they're having?
Personally when I got better I felt better and never really suffered extended die off symptoms, maybe for a day or two. DS flares also were reactions in my mind, not die off.
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Remember that extra water is suggested anytime you detox because it helps flush things out of your body as opposed to just letting them sit around. Dr. Hanshew instructs that you can take the NCD every four hours if need be. I took 15 drops ever four hours times four doses for the challenge and had no issues. I know you're not up to this dose and I wouldn't rush it, but you could take an amount you're comfortable with every four hours with amalgam removal to help clean up. You could also increase your sodium ascorbate or amla to bowel limit the day of removal and a few after to help clean up. Just thoughts I'm having...
Congrats on the good results.
Where are you in the southeast?
Good info. Thanks! I'm in **********, AL.

Kim
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18-month old dd got silver amalgum fillings today....

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=631816
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DD and I are doing liverlife and are noticing nothing. She has been at 15 drops 2x a day for about a week so we have been doing this about a month. She isn't any worse she isn't any better. No reactions. Her dark eye circles are just as bad. She has gotten 2 colds in this time (10 since the begining of sept so this is normal for her). Does this mean it isn't working? Do we need to be doing something else? We mailed our pee to Paris a week ago so I don't expect to hear back for another week or so.

thoughts?
Hmm. I saw immediate results with Sierra in her skin clearing and dark circles vanishing, but we were also doing NCD with a backed up liver. Do you think her dark circles are from liver issues or not sleeping due to yeast? If you think it's yeast you could try the candex first thing in the morning in a tsp of water followed by no more than 1/2 oz to wash it down. So far this has been wonderful for Sierra's hideous yeast and has worked even though her stomach motility is so sluggish. I get up and give it at 5am (up for my ALA anyway) so that she has two hours instead of one before ingesting anything else. One hour is sufficient for others. You could also try asking Tami Wilkin at Bioray since she handles all their pediatric questions : [email protected] She has been a wealth of info for me.
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Ancestry is connected in that certain populations that have been thru starvation apparently pass on metabolisms that slow down as a survival mechanism. And then high stress and/or chronic very restrictive dieting these days can trigger it. (that was my 20's!)

My understanding is high temps mean plenty of T3. Although up and down temps (hot and cold) can be an issue too. Unstable temps can effect enzymes too. Did she have low T3 on a blood test?

Checking temps 3x day at 10AM, 1PM, 4PM (if you wake at 7AM) is recommended as morning temps tend to be a bit low, daytime temps are more indicative apparently. I'm getting ranges between 97.8 and 98.2... not good.)
You know I told you I was going to start, but I forget each day because I'm working on the fiasco of moving us back to Colorado. I need to get going on this. Her T3 and T4 that a regular ped did when she was 13 mo were normal. Dr Hanshew said that regular tests were worthless and she'd seen them come up normal, but abnormal when she tested the patients. I'll let you know when I have results.
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Good info. Thanks! I'm in **********, AL.

Kim
O.k., always looking for another NT mama for my friend in Charleston, SC.
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18-month old dd got silver amalgum fillings today....

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=631816
What is wrong with our government: ? O.k. please don't answer that because we'll never get back on the topic of chelation and this thread will become so much more of a monster than it already is.
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Mercury article from WAP site :

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/mercury.html

Quote:
A study carried out by M. J. Vimy in 1990,13 brought to light the highly absorbable nature of mercury out-gassed by amalgam fillings. He placed twelve occlusal amalgams containing radioactively tagged mercury (that does not occur in nature) in the molars of pregnant sheep. Radioactivity measurements determined that by the third day mercury was found in the amniotic fluid and foetal blood, and that by the 26th day most foetal tissues (especially the liver, bile, bone marrow, blood and brain) had a higher mercury level than that within three days found in maternal tissues. During lactation mercury levels in the milk were eight times greater than those in the maternal blood serum, thereby causing great risk of mercury exposure to the neonate. Even after the 73rd day the mercury level in the foetal tissues was still rising, prompting Vimy's team to conclude that placing amalgam during pregnancy unquestionably places the foetus at undue risk and endangers the health of our children.

Vimy also found that the labelled mercury concentrated within three days in the sheeps' kidneys and caused a significant reduction in the glomerular filtration rate. In a second animal study of monkeys, whose digestive tract is much more closely related to that of humans, a team of microbiologists from the University of Georgia working with Vimy found that mercury from dental amalgam promoted the development of mercury-resistant bacteria in both the mouth and in the intestine, a finding of far-reaching significance.14

Mercury in Breast Milk
Studies carried out during the mid 1990s found a correlation between the mercury concentrations in the kidneys of newborn babies and the number of amalgam fillings of the mother.15 As a result, the Federal Institute of Medicines and Medical Products (an agency of the German government) officially advised against the use of amalgam as a filling material during pregnancy and breast feeding.16

These studies found that the mercury concentration in the urine of pregnant and lactating women positively correlated with the number and surfaces of amalgam fillings and with frequency of fish consumption.17 Levels of mercury in breast milk taken at day 2 of lactation also depended on the number and surfaces of amalgam fillings and with frequency of fish consumption. Mercury levels in the second breast milk sample, taken after two months of breastfeeding, were found to depend only on fish consumption. Investigators believed the lower concentrations of mercury in the milk at 2 months were due to higher amounts of milk being produced.

Mercury is excreted predominantly in the faeces, but also in sweat and urine. Five percent will be excreted in breast milk. By the time of parturition, a baby's levels can be 30 percent higher to 100 percent higher than that of the mother. Mercury passes readily across the placenta, and binds to the red blood cells and tissues in the foetus. Since the foetus is not sweating, making bile or having bowel movements, the mercury accumulates. Also, foetal haemoglobin has a greater affinity for mercury than the mother's haemoglobin.18
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We got our pee test results from paris and I don't understand them.:

DD's results were all in normal range with one slightly elevated and her interpretation said "Urinary Porphyrin Profile suggestive a remarkable mercury toxic effect on bodily physiology"

Mine has several slightly increased and one increased and it said "lack or slighty mercury toxicity"

Help!

Patty wife to Jason Mama to Wisteria (6) and Junia (2)
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Patty can you post your results? I'll try to help you and I'll put Sierra's down for you so you can compare. You've struggled with finding something to help your dd for quite a while. Perhaps this is giving you and answer so you can move along the right path. I saw your post on Yahoo. It's hard to know that your dd was injured due to maternal amalgams.
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Here's what I've got for dd. Let me know if you can't wade through this. I'm not sure what to include or exclude. I'm just feeling pretty overwhelmed right now and DH is questioning the validity of the test. The lousy English isn't helping his confidence. (see bolded)

Quote:
WISTERIA
06/03/2007
HPLC-UV+Fluorescence
reference Interpretation
nmol/l nmol/gCr % nmol/l
Uroporphyrins I &III (UP) 8 23 4,2% 8-20 Average Rate
Heptacarboxy porphyrin (7cxP) 2,8 8,1 1,5% 2,5-4,5 Average Rate
Hexacarboxy porphyrin (6cxP) 1,0 2,9 0,5% 0,5-1,5 Average Rate
Pentacarboxy porphyrin (5cxP) 3,5 10,2 1,8% 2-4 Average Rate
Precoproporphyrin (prCP) 12,0 34,9 6,3% 5-9 Slighltly increased rate
Coproporphyrins I & III (cP) 163 474 85,7% 150-250 Average Rate
prCP/UP PrecoP/Uro ratio 1,50 0,2-0,5
prCP/CP PrecoP/COP ratio 7 % 4-8
UP / CP uro/copro ratio 0,05 0,14-0,1
Interpretation
Urinary Porphyrin Profile suggestive a remarkable mercury toxic effect on bodily physiology

urinary creatinine 344 mg/l
* sensitivity- because heme biosynthesis is highly sensitive to inhibition by many inorganic toxicants such as Mercury, Lead, Arsenic, Aluminium as well as organic
agents: chlorinated benzene, biphenyls (PCB), dioxins (TCDD) and also alcohol.
* Specificity-because nearly each toxics generates a specific urinary porphyrine excretion pattern for example: Biphenyls, Dioxins, Aluminium inhibit an early enzyme
on porphyrin biosynthesis pathway Uro-Decarboxylase, Mercury inhibits Copro-oxydase and L
*Quantificity or quantitative relationship between increase of specific porphyrins species and toxic or heavy metal body burden with a high degree of correlation
designating it as a reliable biomarker for chelation therapy
U r i n a r y p o r p h y r i n s
Urinary porphyrin profile ia a powerful biochemical tool in diagnosis of intoxication associating sensitivity, specificity and
quantificity
LABORATOIRE PHILIPPE AUGUSTE
119 Ave Philippe Auguste 75011 Paris France
Tel (33) 1 43 67 57 00 fax (33) 1 43 79 00 27
Email : [email protected]
CHILD
06/03/2007
HPLC-UV+Fluorescence (nmol / l )
patients
(nmol/l) reference
8 8-20
2,8 2,5-4,5
1,0 0,5-1,5
3,5 2-4
12,0 5-9
163 150-250
ratios
1,50 0,2-0,5
7,4 4-8
0,05 0,14-0,18
PCP/URO
PCP/COPRO
URO/7CXP
% DECARBOXYLATED METABOLITES
sites-1,2,3,4 Uro-Decarboxylase activity index, reflecting global
toxic impairment
Normalized to Uroporphyrin, internal metabolite unchanged by
mercury toxic impact (0,3<N<0,6)
Marker of haavy metal (mercury) toxicity, modulated by
environmental or genetic suseptibility (H272N COP-OX)
Marker of activity site-1 Uro-Decarboxylase (Inhibitation As, Al
Industrial and domestic Xenobiotics)
prCP/UP
prCP/CP
UP / CP
Pentacarboxy porphyrin (5cxP)
Coproporphyrins I & III (cP)
Hexacarboxy porphyrin (6cxP)
Precoproporphyrin (Preco)
Porphyrins
U r i n a r y p o r p h y r i ns
Uroporphyrins I &III (UP)
Heptacarboxy porphyrin (7cxP)
LABORATOIRE PHILIPPE AUGUSTE
119 Ave Philippe Auguste 75011 Paris France
Tel (33) 1 43 67 57 00 fax (33) 1 43 79 00 27
Email : [email protected]
0
50
100
150
200
250
uP 7cxP 6cxP 5cxP prcP cP
nmol/g Cr
norme max
average slightly increased rate increased rate strongly increased rate
0
1
2
pcP/uP uP/cP
Urinary porphyrins
(Heavy Metals Intoxication)
Polychorinated Biphenyl (PCB) UroP
Arsenic (As) 7cxP
Aluminium (Al) Mercury (Hg) 5 cxP
PcP
CoP
Lead (Pb) CoP
URO-D = Uroporphyrin Decarboxylase COP-O Coproporphyrin oxidase
Interpretation of abnormal urinary porphyrin test results
High Coproporphyrin COP-O = Coproporphyrin oxidase High levels in Lead (Pb)
High Precoproporphyrin COP-O = Coproporphyrin oxidase High levels in Mercury (Hg)
+ High Coproporphyrin
High levels in Mercury (Hg) and
certain organic chemicals
URO-D = Uroporphyrin decarboxylase
COP-O = Coproporphyrin oxidase
High 5-carboxyporphyrin+ High
Coproporphyrin +
High 6-carboxyporphyrin
High levels in Arsenic (As) and
certain organic chemicals such as
polychrorinated Biphenyl (PCB)
High Uroporphyrin URO-D = Uroporphyrin decarboxylase
High 7-carboxyporphyrin
Test results Enzyme abnormal Possible Cause
References:
1) Fowler BA, Porphyrinurias induced by mercury and other metals, Toxicol Sci [05/2001] 61(2):197-8.
2) Pingree SD, Simmonds PL, Rummel KT, Woods JS, Quantitative evaluation of urinary porphyrins as a measure of kidney mercury content and
mercury body burden during prolonged methylmercury exposure in rats,Toxicol Sci [05/2001] 61(2):234-40.
3) Apostoli M, Sarnico M, Bavazzano P, Bartoli D, Arsenic and porphyrins, American Journal of Industrial Medicine 42:180-187 (2002)
4) A cascade analysis of the interaction of mercury and coproporphyrinogen oxidase (CPOX) polymorphism on the heme biosynthetic pathway and
porphyrin production., Toxicol Lett Oct/2005.
5) The association between genetic polymorphisms of coproporphyrinogen oxidase and an atypical porphyrinogenic response to mercury exposure in
humans. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol Aug/2005 206(2):113-20.
6) Validity of spot urine samples as a surrogate measure of 24-hour porphyrin excretion rates. Evaluation of diurnal variations in porphyrin, mercury,
and creatinine concentrations among subjects with very low occupational mercury exposure. J Occup Environ Med Dec/1999 40(12):1090-101
7) The validity of spot urine samples for low-level occupational mercury exposure assessment and relationship to porphyrin and creatinine excretion
rates. J Pharmacol Exp Ther Apr/1996 277(1):239-44.
8) Altered porphyrin metabolism as a biomarker of mercury exposure and toxicity. Can J Physiol Pharmacol Feb/1997 74(2):210-5.
9) Behavioral effects of low-level exposure to elemental Hg among dentists.Neurotoxicol Teratol /1995 17(2):161-8.

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#328 of 850 Old 03-16-2007, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Patty,
First let me say that the printed version that you will receive from the lab is much easier to make sense of then the one you receive on the computer. The computer version is confusing IMO. Here are Sierra's results :

uroporphyrins 38 ref(7-14) increased rate increased *arsenic
heptacarboxy porphyrin 5.7 ref (1.5-3.5) slight inc. *arsenic
hexacarboxy porphyrin 1.1 ref (0.4-0.8) slight inc. *mercury
pentacarboxy porphyrin 3.9 ref (1.0-2.9) slight inc. *mercury
precoproporphyrin 8.6 ref (2.0-5.0) slight inc. *mercury
coproporphyrins 48 ref (50-90) decreased *lead/mercury


Quote:
WISTERIA
06/03/2007
HPLC-UV+Fluorescence
reference Interpretation
nmol/l nmol/gCr % nmol/l
Uroporphyrins I &III (UP) 8 23 4,2% 8-20 Average Rate
Heptacarboxy porphyrin (7cxP) 2,8 8,1 1,5% 2,5-4,5 Average Rate
Hexacarboxy porphyrin (6cxP) 1,0 2,9 0,5% 0,5-1,5 Average Rate
Pentacarboxy porphyrin (5cxP) 3,5 10,2 1,8% 2-4 Average Rate
Precoproporphyrin (prCP) 12,0 34,9 6,3% 5-9 Slighltly increased rate
Coproporphyrins I & III (cP) 163 474 85,7% 150-250 Average Rate
prCP/UP PrecoP/Uro ratio 1,50 0,2-0,5
prCP/CP PrecoP/COP ratio 7 % 4-8
UP / CP uro/copro ratio 0,05 0,14-0,1
Interpretation
Urinary Porphyrin Profile suggestive a remarkable mercury toxic effect on bodily physiology
Patty, the wierd thing is that the reference ranges they gave you are different than the printed ones they gave me in the mail as you can see above. They use the coma as we use the decimal point as I'm sure you've figured out. What is strange is that they give you two values such as with the Precoproporphyrin (prCP) 12,0 34,9 6,3% 5-9. They give you W's values of 12.0 and 34.9 with ref 5-9. For Sierra her's: precoproporphyrin 8.6 ref (2.0-5.0) slight inc. *mercury. I would say just to take the first number until you receive your copy in the mail. Actually, this is so screwed up with the different reference ranges I would blow it off until you get the official copy in the mail.
You can see that Sierra had quite a high arsenic level. Her precoproporphyrin was slightly eleveated at 8.6. This is the main one that is looked at for mercury. I discovered that autistic children from the yahoo list ususally have a precoproporphyrin value of 20-60. This made sense to me. Sierra is mercury toxic and does have some things in common with kids on the spectrum (gut, yeast, delayed speech), but is neuro typical. W's precoproporphyrin is 12.0 which would make sense IMO since she is not on the spectrum, but has some issues that could be caused by hg toxicity. I'd wait for the printed form to see if they give different ranges and values.
Let me know what the results are that you get in the mail. Sierra's first UTM with NCD did have elevated hg. I started her on ALA this week and I can see the effects of the hg being mobilized. I'll post more on that later. Try not to stress out too much about the results. You suspected hg toxicity or you wouldn't have run the test. I just used it as a tool to confirm what I suspected (although the arsenic was a surprise) and started to detox her. I now use her UTMs and her progress to tell me what is going on in her body. I can't do another one of these tests since I've started her on ALA. You can get false negatives if you've taken ALA. I know that you posted on the yahoo group that your results did not indicate hg toxicity. This could be due to the fact that a baby detoxifies the mother to some point while in utero. Some also leaves your body in the breast milk. This could have pulled you down to a point that isn't considered toxic...just a thought - who knows?
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#329 of 850 Old 03-16-2007, 06:46 PM
 
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Hmmm... I'm not expecting a result in the mail. I was given the option to get the results by e-mail or by regular mail and I chose e-mail. It looks much better in the one I got but that doesn't transfer well.

Oh the headings for the various values!

nmol/L nmol/gCr % nmol/L

One thing we totally don't understand is what the creatinine has to do with this. DD's level was less than 1/4 of mine. And what about those ratios?

I have a lead on someone on another message board I'm on who may know more about this test. Hopefully she can help me too.

Of course now dh is questioning the validity of the test and wants more info on it. :

Patty wife to Jason Mama to Wisteria (6) and Junia (2)
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#330 of 850 Old 03-19-2007, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Patty,
The following link was where I got some of my info on the porphyrin test (esp. table #4) :

http://www.oralchelation.net/data/To...e%20porphyria1

Also, you could probably email the French lab and request a printed copy be sent in the mail.

Hope this helps.
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