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-   -   Does glycerin really prevent remineralization? WAS: Tooth Soap: SPAM (and questionable claims?) (http://www.mothering.com/forum/308-dental/881625-does-glycerin-really-prevent-remineralization-tooth-soap-spam-questionable-claims.html)

flowmom 04-15-2008 10:06 PM

ETA: I've changed the thread title because the topic has shifted...

They keep SPAMming me in spite of my repeatedly emailing and asking them to stop. I bought their product - is it good customer service to SPAM me on a regular basis? :::

Also, I am starting to question their claims. For example, has anyone actually read a research article that supports the claim that glycerin in toothpaste prevents remineralization? Anything that I've come across seems to be marketing.

nuwavemomma 04-21-2008 01:05 AM

Well, I've seen that claim frequently on websites that aren't selling anything. But then again, maybe the authors are buying something, yk? Who knows where they're getting it from.

I'm relatively new to the whole WAP/TF thing and haven't read Dr. Price's book yet, but maybe that's in there somewhere. Hypothetically would you call that a credible source?

I'm gonna keep my eye on this. I just threw out my toothpaste about a week ago...

flowmom 04-21-2008 02:29 AM

I would consider Dr. Price's info credible, but anecdotal (not based on peer-reviewed scientific research).

The glycerin-prevents-remineralization theory seems to have originated from a self-published booklet from a "Dr. Judd" in which he expounds his theories on dental care. I haven't seen the booklet but it seems like a questionable source - one person's opinion only, and not based on much evidence.

nuwavemomma 04-21-2008 02:47 PM

I poked around some after I posted, and I definitely saw that it seemed everyone was quoting the same source you mentioned... Also saw some JAMA abstracts on enamel hardness and various topical applications, but wasn't able to spend a whole lot of time there. What I saw didn't seem to be what you're looking for exactly anyway.

Still interested to see if anyone else has anything on this...

Mirzam 04-21-2008 06:41 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Yes, the information comes from Dr Judd's book. It is probably self-published because it goes against everything the ADA has us believe. People like Dr Judd are always marginalized because there's no money in his theories for the medical establishment.

If you don't believe the theory about glycerine and re-mineralization that is your prerogative. Find something else you are in alignment with. I also get lots of emails from the company, but as I am very happy with their product, it doesn't bother me one bit.

flowmom 04-22-2008 02:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by uccomama View Post
Yes, the information comes from Dr Judd's book. It is probably self-published because it goes against everything the ADA has us believe. People like Dr Judd are always marginalized because there's no money in his theories for the medical establishment.
I have read a lot of information about other alternative dentistry in the published scientific literature though. It seems that at least one dentist or researcher would publish information about the glycerin-prevents-remineralization claim if it is in fact true? I have read the opinions of at least two holistic dentists (who support the idea of remineralizing cavities, etc.) who have never heard of this theory and who believe that it's unlikely to be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uccomama View Post
If you don't believe the theory about glycerine and re-mineralization that is your prerogative. Find something else you are in alignment with.
I don't know whether to believe it or not . But I am a bit sick of reading the "fact" that "glycerin prevents remineralization" on alternative dentistry fora and web sites, when it is not a fact, it is the opinion of one man who has not completed any formal research on the topic, as far as I know. I think that mamas who are terrified about their children's teeth and who are rushing out to buy special, expensive toothpastes that they may not be able to afford might want to know what the evidence base of this claim is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uccomama View Post
I also get lots of emails from the company, but as I am very happy with their product, it doesn't bother me one bit.
I don't see a problem with inviting customers to get a newsletter, but IMO what they are doing is SPAM, pure and simple

Mirzam 04-22-2008 03:16 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Ksenia, all I can say is read his book, if it is still available. Dr Judd died a while back and his book, AFAIK was only available on his now defunct website. It was very homemade looking, like he typed it himself on a word processor. FWIW, actually heard him interviewed on our local radio community station a few years ago, and he made so much sense to me. I spent years searching for his book until JaneS posted a link.

The thing is, that unless something alternative is marketable, ie supplements, (a bar of soap - gimme a break!) then it isn't going to get into any scientific journal. The medical mafia, just won't allow it. There are other brilliant doctors who have been jailed, ostracized, and exiled for there medical research because it works and there is no money in it.

The ADA and their MO, this goes for all other medical associations, universities and government agencies.

lindberg99 04-22-2008 04:20 PM

What's the difference between Tooth Soap and brushing your teeth with Dr. B's soap? They seem like the same thing except for the price.

Tooth soap: Ingredients: Specially formulated soap made from saponified coconut, palm, organic extra virgin olive oils, filtered water and pure essential oil. NO added glycerin, sweeteners, silicates (sand), fluoride, dyes, stabilizers or other materials that can damage teeth.


Dr. Bronner's Peppermint ingredients: Water, Saponified Coconut, Hemp, Olive Oils (with retained Glycerin), Olive Fatty Acids, Peppermint Oil, Rosemary Extract

OK, now I see that Dr. B's has retained glycerine. Does the Tooth Soap somehow get rid of the glycerol that is formed during the saponification reaction of making soap out of the oils?? I was just going over saponification with my chemistry class. When you mix a fat with lye, you're left with glycerol and 3 soap molecules.

Ruthla 04-22-2008 04:27 PM

It's technically not SPAM if you've purchased their product in the past. It's bad customer service though if they won't take you off the email list when you've asked them to do so. Why not put them on the "spam" list of your email carrier, rather than relying on them to stop the emails?

flowmom 04-22-2008 05:03 PM

lindberg, the Dr. Judd who recommended using soap to brush teeth was suggesting using plain bar soap. I assume that plain bar soap has retained glycerol and that Dr. Judd, being a chemist, would have been aware of that.

I think the situation fits the above description.

delfuego 04-23-2008 04:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lindberg99 View Post
I was just going over saponification with my chemistry class. When you mix a fat with lye, you're left with glycerol and 3 soap molecules.
When I was looking at toothpaste at Whole Foods, I saw that several listed vegetable glycerine. I'm assuming that is formed when you mix vegetable oil w/ lye (I used to make biodiesel out of waste veggie oil and glycerine was the other by product). Is it water soluble? Would it in any way be better than regular glycerine?

This whole discussion is very interesting. I saw the toothsoap too and wasn't about to pay the price for it... but I am interested in this discussion about whether or not glycerine has any impact on remineralization.

delfuego 04-23-2008 04:22 AM

I just found this info on another website
( http://www.dld123.com/q&a/index.php?cid=774 )

Saponified oils are oils mixed with a sodium or potassium hydroxide solution. The resulting reaction produces soap. Most soaps DO contain some residual oil as they are specifically formulated to contain approximately 5% superfat which means all the sodium or potassium hydroxide has been reacted and 5% of the oils remain. This is considered a 'safe" percentage so as not to cause any irritation from excess unreacted sodium or potassium hydroxide. Also, ALL soaps made in this fashion contain glycerine, which is a natural byproduct of the saponification reaction. So, if you are using a properly-made bar of soap to brush your teeth, you are also brushing with glycerine. Glycerine, by the way, is both water and fat soluable.

Apparently, glycerine can be extracted from the soap and sold, the result being a drying bar devoid of this emollient.

Patricia Kostyk
Registered Dental Hygienist and Soapmaker

BeingMe 04-29-2008 01:56 AM

So what should I brush my teeth with?

kalisis 04-29-2008 02:09 AM

I use a swipe of plain old bar soap on my toothbrush. It works just as well and costs much less. It tastes about the same, too.

delfuego 04-29-2008 07:59 PM



Heck if I know. I'm still trying to figure it out myself. As far as I can tell from the information I posted before, soap isn't any better than toothpaste. But maybe it has less glycerine? Does it even really matter... if glycerine, like she says, is fat and water soluble? Is it less water soluble than fat soluble? No idea.

I still haven't tried soap to see how it worked on my teeth... I wouldn't buy toothsoap just because of the price. I've considered using Dr. Bronners. Right now I'm still using my Tom's of Maine, but not too happy about it anymore.

I ordered some powedered xylitol that I'm going to try using w/ some peppermint oil.

nuwavemomma 04-30-2008 05:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by delfuego View Post


Heck if I know. I'm still trying to figure it out myself. As far as I can tell from the information I posted before, soap isn't any better than toothpaste. But maybe it has less glycerine? Does it even really matter... if glycerine, like she says, is fat and water soluble? Is it less water soluble than fat soluble? No idea.

I still haven't tried soap to see how it worked on my teeth... I wouldn't buy toothsoap just because of the price. I've considered using Dr. Bronners. Right now I'm still using my Tom's of Maine, but not too happy about it anymore.

I ordered some powedered xylitol that I'm going to try using w/ some peppermint oil.
I think SLS is a good reason to switch away from commercial toothpastes. THIS is the only kind I've ever seen without it, but I seriously don't want to pay that for one tube. I think I'm going to try grating a bar of Dr. B's Peppermint and see how I fare with it.

Anyone else doing that?

lindberg99 05-01-2008 12:31 PM

There are other SLS-free toothpastes: http://www.dentist.net/sls-free-toothpaste.asp

But I don't know if they have glycerine in them or not. I'm guessing the tooth powders don't.

I've tried brushing with Dr. Bronner's. I just don't like it much.

flowmom 05-03-2008 09:14 PM

We are using these toothpastes for our kids:

Periopaste - contains glycerin
and
Spry Infant Tooth Gel - does not contain glycerin

PatriciaK 07-14-2008 11:07 PM

[QUOTE=delfuego;11057125]I just found this info on another website
( http://www.dld123.com/q&a/index.php?cid=774 )

Saponified oils are oils mixed with a sodium or potassium hydroxide solution. The resulting reaction produces soap. Most soaps DO contain some residual oil as they are specifically formulated to contain approximately 5% superfat which means all the sodium or potassium hydroxide has been reacted and 5% of the oils remain. This is considered a 'safe" percentage so as not to cause any irritation from excess unreacted sodium or potassium hydroxide. Also, ALL soaps made in this fashion contain glycerine, which is a natural byproduct of the saponification reaction. So, if you are using a properly-made bar of soap to brush your teeth, you are also brushing with glycerine. Glycerine, by the way, is both water and alcohol soluable.

Apparently, glycerine can be extracted from the soap and sold, the result being a drying bar devoid of this emollient.

Patricia Kostyk
Registered Dental Hygienist and Soapmaker

PatriciaK 07-14-2008 11:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by delfuego View Post
I just found this info on another website
( http://www.dld123.com/q&a/index.php?cid=774 )

Saponified oils are oils mixed with a sodium or potassium hydroxide solution. The resulting reaction produces soap. Most soaps DO contain some residual oil as they are specifically formulated to contain approximately 5% superfat which means all the sodium or potassium hydroxide has been reacted and 5% of the oils remain. This is considered a 'safe" percentage so as not to cause any irritation from excess unreacted sodium or potassium hydroxide. Also, ALL soaps made in this fashion contain glycerine, which is a natural byproduct of the saponification reaction. So, if you are using a properly-made bar of soap to brush your teeth, you are also brushing with glycerine. Glycerine, by the way, is both water and fat soluable.

Apparently, glycerine can be extracted from the soap and sold, the result being a drying bar devoid of this emollient.

Patricia Kostyk
Registered Dental Hygienist and Soapmaker
Sorry, should have read, "water and alcohol soluble."
Patricia

ccm 07-14-2008 11:25 PM

MI paste, Oravive, and Dr. Collins remineralizing toothpastes contain glycerine-there is evidence/studies that NovaMin and recaldent in the toothpastes remineralizes teeth regardless of the glycerine

theres glycerine in all soaps-but the claim is that we should avoid added glycerine in toothpastes

the question is whether or not natural glycerine produced when making soap is different from the glycerine stuff added to toothpaste-is it derived from soapmaking?

flowmom 07-16-2008 03:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccm View Post
the question is whether or not natural glycerine produced when making soap is different from the glycerine stuff added to toothpaste-is it derived from soapmaking?
Glycerol (the chemical that glycerine is composed of) is a very simple molecule -- I can't see why it would make any difference what the source is.

GuavaGirl 10-09-2008 04:19 AM

This toothpaste might be what some are looking for. I found it at my local natural foods store.

http://www.coral-cure.com/coral-white-toothpaste.htm

Ingredients:
Calcium Carbonate (Coral Minerals), Stevia Rebaudiana Leaf Extract, Xylitol, Hydrastis Canadenis (Golden Seal) Extract, Cingko Biloba, Panax Ginseng (Ginseng) Root Extract, Echinacea Angustifolia (Echinacea) Extract, Mentha Viridis (Spearmint) Leaf Oil, Sorbitol, Aqua (Purified Water), Hydrated Silica, Sodium Cocoyl Glutamate, Sodium Magnesium Silicate, Cellulose Gum

Koalamom 10-10-2008 05:08 PM

I have a really hard time about glycerin prevent remineralzation. Do other foods coat your teeth? Like olive oil, butter, yogurts, honey, etc. Do people on mucusless diets have better teeth? I think not.

I stay away from glycerin just in case it proves to be true, but I need more evidence. I use uncleharrys.com tooth powder. Tooth soaps theory is that decay is from teeth with junk and acids on them, not properly cleaned, but from weston prices research, none of the people he studied really brushed. This would blow all the reason behind not using glycerin.

Nothing to do with the glycerin, I have had terrible results with tooth soap brand. I ordered the peppermint tooth shreds, and I used them and my teeth felt worse than ever, and my gums got really inflamed. The stuff smelled terrible, but I never realized that it was rancid. My hubby went to try it for the first time, and pointed out the rancid smell. I thought it was supposed to smell that way. The company replaced it for free, and the new one I got was fine. After about 1 month, the tooth shreds changed color and went rancid too. What a waste of money, and my teeth felt worse, and it flared up my gums which took months to undo.

Ruthla 10-13-2008 01:16 PM

I wonder if it has to do with the amount of glycerin- like maybe the amount formed naturally in soap washes away properly with the rest of the soap, but when it's added as a separate ingredient they may use way too much and it coats the teeth.

Davidm123 11-02-2013 05:56 PM

Hi Interesting topic and one that I have been trying to fathom out as well. I ordered the pure Dr Bronner Castile Soap in liquid form.

Just two drops is all that is needed to give the teeth a super clean and I give it to the kids too rather than the usual toothpaste. The question is whether the glycerine hinders the teeth from remineralisation. I found out from one source that soap with glycerine takes 25 rinses to get rid of all the glycerine. Whereas soap with no glycerine requires only a couple of rinses. This got me searching for a glycerine free soap and all I found was an olive oil bar soap with no other ingredients except for olive oil and water. I will try that too and see if it makes any difference. I do understand the theory that a layer of glycerine on the teeth somehow prevents remineralisation reason being that the tooth would ideally need to 'breath' just like an earthenware brick in a wall. I just have to double check if the olive soap I located is in fact glycerine free. Btw our little bottle of Bronner's Magic Soap will last our family of four a good year. That can't be said of toothpaste, so there is most definitely an economy. Thank you to whoever started this topic.


Mayamia 06-04-2014 05:55 PM

Check Tooth Tonic...www.toothtonic.com.au
There's nothing bad in it, all essential oils are anti bacterial, anti viral anti inflammatory in base of Black sesame seed oil and extra virgin coconut oil.
And Black Whitener and re mineralizer


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