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#151 of 177 Old 05-25-2011, 08:12 PM
 
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Hollah! 


dust.gifFour-eyed tattooed fairy godmother queer, mama to my lucky star (5) and little bird (2.5). Resident storyteller at www.thestoryforest.com. Enchanting audiostories for curious kids. Come play in the forest!
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#152 of 177 Old 05-25-2011, 08:25 PM
 
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Who else thinks this thread needs more cowbell? 
 

 



My toddler actually found my cowbell from a hockey game and is running around with it as I type.  Now I'm sitting her thinking "and the only thing we need is more Tylenol!"

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#153 of 177 Old 05-25-2011, 08:33 PM
 
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My toddler actually found my cowbell from a hockey game and is running around with it as I type.  Now I'm sitting her thinking "and the only thing we need is more Tylenol!"



LOL  That's AWESOME!  It's been a long time since I made it to a hockey game...cowbells from a hockey game...I never would have put those two together as natural allies. Fantastic!


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#154 of 177 Old 05-25-2011, 08:38 PM
 
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I think you are being a little disingenuous to say that a 29 month old is no different in cognitive thinking than a 10 month old.  Really.  Also a gate blocking off a living area, is different than a locked door blocking off the child from mommy and daddy. 

 



Well, if it sounds disingenuous, it is probably because to me, it is just as absurb to trust a 29 month old not to get into danger as it is to feed a 10 month old a hotdog.  My three year old has escaped out a window with about three seconds of us being in another room.  I don't trust my three year old.  I am probably not going to trust him when he's four either.  Or five.  Because he is a kid, and kids are going to make mistakes.  Its part of typical child development. It doesn't mean I don't love and respect him.  It just means I am not going to trust that he is safe if I am not ensuring it through whatever is age appropriate at the time.

 

But anyhow, yes! yes! yes!  to whoever said this thread is getting out of hand.  Totally agree and I'm ready to be done with it too! 

 

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#155 of 177 Old 05-25-2011, 08:46 PM
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no no no!!!!!! i said it was getting out of hand....NOT that i wanted to be done with it! :)

ugh....i obviously need to get out more....

well, until the next online drama...sigh....


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#156 of 177 Old 05-25-2011, 09:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post

Well, if it sounds disingenuous, it is probably because to me, it is just as absurb to trust a 29 month old not to get into danger as it is to feed a 10 month old a hotdog.  My three year old has escaped out a window with about three seconds of us being in another room.  I don't trust my three year old.  I am probably not going to trust him when he's four either.  Or five.  Because he is a kid, and kids are going to make mistakes.  Its part of typical child development. It doesn't mean I don't love and respect him.  It just means I am not going to trust that he is safe if I am not ensuring it through whatever is age appropriate at the time.

 

But anyhow, yes! yes! yes!  to whoever said this thread is getting out of hand.  Totally agree and I'm ready to be done with it too! 

 

Exactly...age appropriate is the key, isn't it?  Didn't you say up thread that you don't lock your child in his room?  That you use gates to protect his safety and think that probably would be a better choice if one had the option?  I still agree with you that that would be an age appropriate way to strike a balance between natural mistrust and building trust.  

 

Cowbell. :D

 

 


 

 


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#157 of 177 Old 05-25-2011, 09:25 PM
 
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APToddlerMama:
 
 OP's daughter gets let out of her room when she wakes up 5 seconds after her request.  Gets locked in after she's asleep.  What is so disrespectful about that?  

Just had to say...this number is completely made up.  I know why you did it, but it's not anywhere in any of the OP's responses.  I don't even understand how the OP or anyone could say for certain that this was true and she never did.  She said "right away", and I think "immediately"...then she also said that she slept through her daughter ripping off wallpaper only feet from her head, and would likely not be able to hear a door open, hear a toddler moving furniture or stacking toys to scale a four foot gate, and would not be awakened by windchimes or a bell...headscratch.gif...so 5 seconds seems like a very kind estimate.  You are very sweet to assume any of us have such cat like reflexes when it comes to children shouting from behind a closed door. You must be a better sleep listener than me.

 

Not that I can say if I respond in five seconds or ten seconds or ten minutes.  Some days I am certain it has been a millisecond because I have not yet drifted to sleep, others I awake from such a deep sleep It could have been an hour for all I know...which is why as soon as my kids are able to move to me on their own, I make it so.  Safely...but on their terms as much as possible, as soon as possible.

 

 


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#158 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 04:37 AM
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First, the tone of so many postings here has been so hot -- angry, defensive, attacking, using "logic" to attack another person (which I view as a form of verbal abuse) that I could not bear to read them.  This is not what I expect of women at MDC.  Normally I would not choose to follow a thread with so much rancor. But I do have something to add.

 

Dr Sears said in his book he had no idea what all those parents of high needs babies were talking about -- until he got one of his own. I see the divide in this discussion between those who have experienced such a child, and those who have not.

 

Many of you have not experienced the pain of keeping a truly "difficult" child safe.  At night your child walks down the hall to join you, or cries out for you. Please understand you are lucky.  My dd would get up and be over any gate, out on the balcony, down the street,  back in the garden, over any fence, up every bookcase, on the top shelf in the closet, and at the age of 16 months falling out a 2nd story window when the screen fell out (not on my watch).  She was hospitalized overnight with a bruised liver.  It was horrible.  Yes, I learned to lock her up and I had to learn to forgive or my marriage would have ended.  Her father was in the room not 4 feet away when he turned around and saw she had climbed up to the window. She was not unsupervised.  We love her so much and we had to find ways to keep her safe.  She never slept the night through until she was 4 1/2.  She had night terrors 3 times a week for years.  This is when a child is in an altered sleep state, screaming mindlessly and does not recognize anyone, all you can do is hold the child and wait till it's over and they fall back into a real sleep.  I was in her room before she started screaming most nights, and her dad would often fall asleep holding her hand.  Yet because we had to find a way to keep her safe, some of you would name us negligent, or abusive?

 

As soon as I read the OP's first post I knew this was a conscientious mother who was looking for options.  No-one here has any idea how much thought and effort she had already put into trying to keep her child safe.  She did not deserve the flaming she got.  Please let's treat each other with more kindness and respect.


Amen! When such judgement ("disgust") and rancor emerge, it makes me fearful that we as a community are affirming beliefs that we are AP zealots unable to respect alternative choices, thereby turning people off to AP rather than inviting them toward it. And can I add to that my sadness about length of membership on mdc being used in argument?! Just cuz you been here longer doesn't mean you're opinions carry any more weight.

My deepest apologies to the OP for the thred getting so out of hand. I hope you find the solutions you need. (we use bolsters to keep dd on her floor bed for naps. Nighttime is still with us - because thats what works best, not because it's "right")
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#159 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 08:19 AM
 
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I am jumping in VERY late to long and heated discussion, but here it goes...

 

I understand where the OP and some other "pro'doorlock" posters are coming from and would feel more comfortable with the idea of locking a door if I also had a monitor set up in case I could not hear them very well. While we did not face this issue, as our apartment was reasonably babyproofed (and I also co-slept with DD many nights), if that is not possible, then I think a door lock is an option, albeit a last resort option (if a gate, a bell, or other method was not workable).

 

I am having trouble understanding how so many can be equating this solution with abuse? Is it ideal? No. But I also do not get the sense that anybody is locking their child away in stead of meeting their needs. I think that all of us, essentially, want the same thing - to be able to respond to our children if they need us, but to make sure that they are safe and sound the rest of the time. Some kids are wanderers/curiosity-seekers, some are not. Some can co-sleep, some cannot. We all have to evaluate our own circumstances and make choices in the best interests of our children. I do not see anybody suggesting that kids be locked away for convenience or so that the parent can sleep uninterrupted or whatever.

 

While I also understand the concerns about the potential delay or inability to get a kid out in the event of an emergency, one has to weigh the potential cost of day-to-day accidents against the remote possibility of an emergency.


Apparently doing it rong and ruining it for everyone, but I don't give a crap anymorebanana.gif

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#160 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 09:10 AM
 
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... can I add to that my sadness about length of membership on mdc being used in argument?!


Who said this?  If you are referring to my reference to long time posters making mistakes, or how is stated that posting even a few times here might enlighten one to the UA and forum guidelines and general site mission statements, you are taking my comments out of context.

 

I agree that length of membership or post count means nothing in terms of validity of a point of view...but being here a long time can help one get a feel for the sort of community values MDC tries to promote (being as one has probably been referred to the UA and forum guidelines on more than one occassion in violation of it LOL) and more importantly have a firmer grasp of the way conversations and debates are held (i.e. we welcome all points of view on a topic -- within the guidelines of a UA and the forum -- and do not demand or imply that someone butt out if we don't like their point of view or accuse them of doing the same to us when they never did), the guidelines for discussing topics, and the myriad ways in which we learn from eachother and support one another.  That does not mean one's membership bolsetrs the credence of their position, it means that one's experience might help guide another person towards a more productive discussion on this board. 

 

Or...did I miss something?


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#161 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 11:44 AM
 
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Exactly...age appropriate is the key, isn't it?  Didn't you say up thread that you don't lock your child in his room?  That you use gates to protect his safety and think that probably would be a better choice if one had the option?  I still agree with you that that would be an age appropriate way to strike a balance between natural mistrust and building trust.  

 

Cowbell. :D

 

 


 

 


Oh my...I said I was going to be done but I'm back ;).  Only because you asked but I'm done then really!  IF my son could get over our gate, I would have to figure something else out, and it is possible that could be locking.  Luckily, he has some motor delays so while he has climbed out a low window before and unlocked the front door and gotten out while we were awake and he was being supervised, he has yet to climb over the gate, thankfully.  And about the 5 seconds...well yes, that is a made up number but that is about how quickly I respond to my kid when he gets up.  If he's crying I am fast, if he's not I will yell to him I'm coming and lay around for a minute.  Point is, it isn't like OP is going to have to run across a football field to get there.  And for me, I generally sleep super light, but there are times I can see myself, especially now that I'm pregnant and exhausted, sleeping through something serious if I didn't have a gate.  My son is quiet when he's doing something he isn't supposed to and loud when he wants me.  In fact, one day that the gate got left opened, I found him in the bathroom throwing towels into the tub with the water running...something he had been trying to do for days!  Saw the opportunity and ran with it...
 

 

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#162 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 11:53 AM
 
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How do you keep them from taking off the sleep sacks? 

 

Well, my 15 month old doesn't try to take it off so I assume she is fine with it. She certainly protests loudly about things she doesn't like (bibs, hats, etc) and she can take those off herself. If she wanted to she could wriggle out of the sleepsack I'm sure. But it's not like a straight jacket. She can move freely and even walk in it. It just stops her from spreading her legs far apart like she would need to to get over the side of the crib. The sleep sack also keeps her warm and stops her from pulling her socks off and getting cold feet. In answer to the question upthread about finding them in toddler sizes, it's not an issue for me yet but I've seen them all over the place in larger sizes. Maybe it's just a Canadian thing. shrug.gif
 

 

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Well, my 15 month old doesn't try to take it off so I assume she is fine with it. She certainly protests loudly about things she doesn't like (bibs, hats, etc) and she can take those off herself. If she wanted to she could wriggle out of the sleepsack I'm sure. But it's not like a straight jacket. She can move freely and even walk in it. It just stops her from spreading her legs far apart like she would need to to get over the side of the crib. The sleep sack also keeps her warm and stops her from pulling her socks off and getting cold feet. In answer to the question upthread about finding them in toddler sizes, it's not an issue for me yet but I've seen them all over the place in larger sizes. Maybe it's just a Canadian thing. shrug.gif
 

 


I am picturing something like Sweetpea from Popeye right now...how cute is that?! 

 


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#164 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 01:03 PM
 
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I just have to add that my nearly 3 yo is currently very angry that I won't put the doorknob cover on his door.  I just read him a book so he could take a nap and left the room and he's come out three times already to drag me to the room asking for the cover.  

 

I'll go put it on after I type this, and he'll take a nap.  When he  wakes up he'll call out to me or knock on the door.  

 

Maybe I just have strange kids who are obsessively attached to routine. 

 

I can't imagine using a cover and leaving a kid on the other side if they were upset and trying to get out, for my kid, knowing that he can't get out feels safe.  This is the same kid who happily chants, "Buckle!  Buckle!" when we get in the car and asks for it to be tightened.  

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#165 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 01:25 PM
 
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I just have to add that my nearly 3 yo is currently very angry that I won't put the doorknob cover on his door.  I just read him a book so he could take a nap and left the room and he's come out three times already to drag me to the room asking for the cover.  

 

I'll go put it on after I type this, and he'll take a nap.  When he  wakes up he'll call out to me or knock on the door.  

 

Maybe I just have strange kids who are obsessively attached to routine. 

 

I can't imagine using a cover and leaving a kid on the other side if they were upset and trying to get out, for my kid, knowing that he can't get out feels safe.  This is the same kid who happily chants, "Buckle!  Buckle!" when we get in the car and asks for it to be tightened.  

LOL...your kid reminds me of my lovely little students in Seoul who used to chant with glee when we had quizzes and tests and would moan in anguish and disappointment when I had forgotten to make the copies.   AWWWWWWWWW teeeeeeacheeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrr, why can't we have a test today?!

 

He does realize that the cover only means he can't get out, not that others can't get in, right?  That he's not actually any safer (unlike in a car seat) from anyone but himself

 


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#166 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 03:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 7thDaughter View Post

First, the tone of so many postings here has been so hot -- angry, defensive, attacking, using "logic" to attack another person (which I view as a form of verbal abuse) that I could not bear to read them.  This is not what I expect of women at MDC.

 

hakeber

2) You view logic as a form of verbal abuse?  You think it abusive to ask someone to support their reasoning with clear coherent logic (as you have done)? Logic is how problems are solved, how we reach reasonable conclusions.  It is how we discern between truth and fiction.  I am sure you did not mean that the way it came across, can you explain?

 

Pardon me for not getting all the quotes in place correctly.  Here is my response to hakeber's question.

 

I support rational approaches to disagreement.  However I have seen too many instances (and to be honest, most of them were men using "logic" as a weapon against women) where people with very valid views were spoken down to, their views denigrated, their wisdom lost or ignored when decision-making time came, because the more forceful debater was able to use criticism and logical arguments to undercut the voice of the other, who deserved equal respect - and often had wider experiences to draw from, but could not easily or quickly form those experiences into sound bites for a debate.  And when this happens, changing a discussion of various views into a "winning vs losing" argument, yes, it is verbal abuse.  Esp within families where the better debater uses logic as a means to control everyone.  The course based on logic is not necessarily the direction you would follow if you listened to the voice of experience and wisdom, and season it with kindness.  We who practice AP and loving kindness should know this. 

 

Now, I'm not sure I logically explained my point about logic, but this is my experience with human beings, who use logic to justify and reinforce their emotional decisions, and then deny what they just did.  And yes, we all do this because we are all human.

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LOL...your kid reminds me of my lovely little students in Seoul who used to chant with glee when we had quizzes and tests and would moan in anguish and disappointment when I had forgotten to make the copies.   AWWWWWWWWW teeeeeeacheeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrr, why can't we have a test today?!

 

He does realize that the cover only means he can't get out, not that others can't get in, right?  That he's not actually any safer (unlike in a car seat) from anyone but himself

 



I suspect he's very much going to be that sort of kid.  After all, I was. :P  He's a kid who is very very rigid and likes to know what the rules are and likes everything to be just so. He has some significant verbal delays and many other quirks, but he lives for following rules and routines.  He's a fun kid to parent. 

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Pardon me for not getting all the quotes in place correctly.  Here is my response to hakeber's question.

 

I support rational approaches to disagreement.  However I have seen too many instances (and to be honest, most of them were men using "logic" as a weapon against women) where people with very valid views were spoken down to, their views denigrated, their wisdom lost or ignored when decision-making time came, because the more forceful debater was able to use criticism and logical arguments to undercut the voice of the other, who deserved equal respect - and often had wider experiences to draw from, but could not easily or quickly form those experiences into sound bites for a debate.  And when this happens, changing a discussion of various views into a "winning vs losing" argument, yes, it is verbal abuse.  Esp within families where the better debater uses logic as a means to control everyone.  The course based on logic is not necessarily the direction you would follow if you listened to the voice of experience and wisdom, and season it with kindness.  We who practice AP and loving kindness should know this. 

 

Now, I'm not sure I logically explained my point about logic, but this is my experience with human beings, who use logic to justify and reinforce their emotional decisions, and then deny what they just did.  And yes, we all do this because we are all human.



So to clarify, do you feel that is what has happened HERE in this thread?  Do you feel that there is a winning or losing side and that *I* am using logic to over look someone else's point of view?  I haven't seen a winner or a loser or even a clear definitive SIDE in all of this yet. For there to be a debate, there must be a premise agreed upon and that is still up in the air, actually.

 

I have always felt that wisdom and experience contribute to logic and reasoning in important ways and that we cannot separate the two.  They both work together to create a woven fabric of understanding.  Of course in order to benefit from one another's wisdom and experience we must be bothered to stick around and share it, even when things get intellectually overhwleming, verbally uncomfortable, or frustrating. Don't you think?

 

Also, I hate to sound obtuse, but can you also explian that part in bold?  I do not follow.


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#169 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 04:11 PM
 
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I suspect he's very much going to be that sort of kid.  After all, I was. :P  He's a kid who is very very rigid and likes to know what the rules are and likes everything to be just so. He has some significant verbal delays and many other quirks, but he lives for following rules and routines.  He's a fun kid to parent. 



I might have missed this, and if I did please direct me to the post so as not repeat yourself, but why did you start using the covers in the first place?

 

ETA:  I posted the too quickly.  He sounds like a real cutie pie!  I thrive on Chaos.  I am not sure I would know how to meet the needs of a kid who needed that much structure.  I'd do my best, but I am pretty sure I would fail them.  Kudos to you Insidevoice.


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#170 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 04:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post




Oh my...I said I was going to be done but I'm back ;).  Only because you asked but I'm done then really!  IF my son could get over our gate, I would have to figure something else out, and it is possible that could be locking.  Luckily, he has some motor delays so while he has climbed out a low window before and unlocked the front door and gotten out while we were awake and he was being supervised, he has yet to climb over the gate, thankfully.  And about the 5 seconds...well yes, that is a made up number but that is about how quickly I respond to my kid when he gets up.  If he's crying I am fast, if he's not I will yell to him I'm coming and lay around for a minute.  Point is, it isn't like OP is going to have to run across a football field to get there.  And for me, I generally sleep super light, but there are times I can see myself, especially now that I'm pregnant and exhausted, sleeping through something serious if I didn't have a gate.  My son is quiet when he's doing something he isn't supposed to and loud when he wants me.  In fact, one day that the gate got left opened, I found him in the bathroom throwing towels into the tub with the water running...something he had been trying to do for days!  Saw the opportunity and ran with it...
 

 



Mmmhmm, I have one of those.  Mad Scientist by day (luckily) Rip van Winkle by night.  At two he flushed a roll of toilet paper down the toilet, and a month or two later decided he knew how to swim just fine and dove head first off the bank into the muddiest river water you have ever seen (my suede boots never were the same again)...Last week, at the age of six mind you, he went to "brush his teeth" while I was marking exams, (sneaky bugger knew I'd be distracted) and a half hour later emmerge from the bathroom with a towel cape and "anti-gravity serum" heading to the balcony to test it.  When I went to the bathroom I discovered he had employed almost an entire bottle of my 25$ body lotion, half a bottle of heads and shoulders and several drops of food coloring (god knows how he got that!).  UGH!

 

This is why we use a sliding door instead of a gate to block off the living area (not for DS but for DD who shows similar tendencies to her brother).  Of course DS is old enough now to be trusted not to do head dives off the furniture anymore, and watch TV peacefully and even make his own and his sister's breakfast, but we keep the balcony doors and gates padlocked with the keys in my bedside table...ya know, just in case Captain Daring decides to get adventurous.  Oy!

 


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#171 of 177 Old 05-26-2011, 06:31 PM
 
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I just wanted to say, for the record, that I'm bothered by many of the judgmental responses in this thread.  NO ONE has cookie cutter children, and no answer is for everyone. This Mama was asking for advice based on what she stated she had ALREADY decided.  And I thought that Mothering.com was a place of support, not judgment.  Apparently I was wrong, and will re-think any posts I make in the future.  Even IF one were to disagree, it can be done in a factual, non-judgmental way, or with no response, not in the way that many of you chose to do it.

 

To the OP, I'm personally sorry that you had to endure the backlash that you did...I hope that you find a solution that works best for your child and your family that keeps you all sleeping happily and safe.

 

I hope that the Mamas here that are thoughtful about the way they parent and raise their children but not about their responses to OP can show that same thoughtfulness in interacting here and in society as a whole in the future.

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#172 of 177 Old 05-28-2011, 08:18 AM
 
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Wow I couldn't even read through most of the repsonses on this thread because of all the negativity and backlash.  I too am bothered at how judgemental some people can be. 

 

Since I couldn't bring myself to get through the many pages of responses to see if your question has been answered I'm just going to tell you briefly what we do with DD and it seems to work.  When we put DD to bed we shut her door, which also has a door knob cover on the inside because she learned how to open her door to get out.  She typically falls asleep within 15 minutes, sometimes longer, but she stays in her room and plays, reads or just talks/sings herself to sleep.  We have a monitor on so if she were to need us she knows to call out for us and we'll be right there for her.  Once we know she is asleep we go and open her bedroom door so if she needs to get out in the middle of the night for any reason she can freely do so.  She is pretty good about coming into our bedroom if she needs something or when she wakes up in the morning.  A few times she has gone downstairs but that rarely happened so we didn't feel a need to gate off any part of the house. 

 

Hope that helps and I'm sorry you had to deal with all the judgemental responses to your question!


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#173 of 177 Old 05-28-2011, 08:58 AM
 
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Well, since the thread seems to have calmed down I want to share one of my friends stories from when her daughter was about two. She slept in her own room in a sleepsack with a gate up. I don't remember if she was in a crib or a bed at that point. One morning her parents were in bed and they saw bubbles floating past the window. They leapt up and discovered their daughter had scaled the gate, unlocked the balcony door and was standing on a chair on the balcony blowing bubbles (in her sleepsack). After that the door was locked. Some kids require extreme measures! 

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#174 of 177 Old 05-28-2011, 09:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boot View Post

Well, since the thread seems to have calmed down I want to share one of my friends stories from when her daughter was about two. She slept in her own room in a sleepsack with a gate up. I don't remember if she was in a crib or a bed at that point. One morning her parents were in bed and they saw bubbles floating past the window. They leapt up and discovered their daughter had scaled the gate, unlocked the balcony door and was standing on a chair on the balcony blowing bubbles (in her sleepsack). After that the door was locked. Some kids require extreme measures! 


LOL!! Wow!  That is a great story and illustrates a point it seems many have forgotten. 
 

 

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#175 of 177 Old 05-28-2011, 10:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturalMama311 View Post

Wow I couldn't even read through most of the repsonses on this thread because of all the negativity and backlash.  I too am bothered at how judgemental some people can be. 


Yes- this. Hugs and support to the OP.

I don't have this to worry about yet, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with "locking" your DD in her room at night while she sleeps. As long as she knows that you will come the second she needs you, I don't see the difference between this and a gate or any other safety barrier.

I am a passionate believer in all sorts of freedom and absence of limitations and authority in many, MANY instances but I believe that for small children to learn how to become responsible adults and for their own safety they very often need these kinds of limits and a strong authority to gently show them the way and keep them secure until they can do it themselves.  Nothing wrong with that!

 

 


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#176 of 177 Old 05-28-2011, 06:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by insidevoice View Post
I can't imagine using a cover and leaving a kid on the other side if they were upset and trying to get out, for my kid, knowing that he can't get out feels safe.  This is the same kid who happily chants, "Buckle!  Buckle!" when we get in the car and asks for it to be tightened.  

threadjack -
DD also does this.  Put her in anything with a buckle and she will buckle herself in if she can, and ask me to do it if she can't.  Totally routine oriented.


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#177 of 177 Old 05-29-2011, 08:22 PM
 
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We just turned the door knobs around so the lock was on the outside.
We started locking the kids in their room once they transitioned from the crib to a bed.
It didn't terrorize them or anything, it didn't even make them cry, it just made them knock on their door in the morning so I can let them out.
If it terrorized them, we would have sought out a different option.


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