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#61 of 85 Old 01-02-2013, 04:46 PM
 
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This sounds like an unhealthy dynamic for you and your daughter. I'd pull back from the relationship for a bit. They went way way overboard, and I agree it might have been because they wanted you to publicly shame your daughter, so they figured they'd do a bit of public shaming themselves. I'm really upset and sad on behalf of you and your daughter for how they've behaved.
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#62 of 85 Old 01-02-2013, 06:11 PM
 
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Toddlers will do things together that they wouldn't necessarily do alone.  Well, maybe that's just my toddler.  wink1.gif  Your friends overreacted and I'm sorry your daughter is receiving the brunt of it. 

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#63 of 85 Old 01-02-2013, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, kids are in bed and I'm back to add some more thoughts on the situation. Basically in regards to paying for the items, it's a non-issue at this point. If it were us we wouldn't expect our guests to pay but clearly they do, so regardless of what I think we will pay for them. The replacement stuffed animal is $12, and the bedding set I think is around $40 so it's not the end of the world.

To the poster who talked about their experience growing up after stealing a seashell, that is exactly what we are concerned about. We were not at all angry at our DD, we did get her to apologize and she helped clean up, I explained that these were a special type of marker that can only go on the whiteboard. Really I wasn't going to take it any further because it needs to be a learning experience for her and not a punishment. I thought the same that some of you guys did, that they expected me to put her in time out etc. or to get more angry with her...the thing is, they seem to be GD about some things and not others. I'm not sure if they've even thought about the shoe being on the other foot and how they would feel if it was their DD. The time out for the pee accident really bothered me, and I think the mom was really embarrassed so that's how she felt she should react.

As for the friendship, DH and I have talked about it at length, and if need be we are prepared to keep our distance. It is complicated though, the other DH is also our pastor, and my DH plays in the church worship band. We have been close friends for 4 years, seeing each other at least once/week and the girls are close too. I guess that's what makes this so hard, they are like family to us. It would involve major changes for us, but we are prepared to make them if needed.

At this point we have agreed to distance ourselves, and offer to host here if they ask to get together. This week they are away, and we will likely be "busy" the week after that, however it won't go unnoticed for long that there is an issue. Likely we will have to have the tough conversation, which we are both prepared to do. Also my DH and I are not prepared to let another shaming incident slide without intervening in some way. I regret not saying anything when it happened on NYE, but I guess it was because I hadn't had a chance to talk to my DH about it and wanted to make sure we were on the same page and that he was noticing it too. (He was noticing, and was absolutely seething on the inside).

I am hoping things are salvageable, but I don't know if I will ever be at ease visiting at their house, at least not like I felt before. Thanks again for all of your responses, and I will update if anything new happens.
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#64 of 85 Old 01-02-2013, 06:31 PM
 
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#65 of 85 Old 01-02-2013, 07:27 PM
 
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to all the ones who feel I some how shame or embarrassed my quests in front of a child- at the time I did not have a child and when you set a formal table for eight and you only have seven spoons it goes to the one who said I had "too many"---they got clearly that I no longer did- it was an issue and they did pay for it----clearly I think when you are an adult you should know if you cause damage and can have means to replace an item you should have the manners to do so-my culture it was this way and most I know also go by this- I know people told not to pay for something and turn around an send a gift of another type at the approximate value and would not think to just not do so

 

 

 

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 the other DH is also our pastor

ah, that's sad!- IMO 

 

I clearly have views on how other should treat others and I "assume" your pastor  has them too!

 

Throw in the gossiping, shaming, etc., and I would have called it a day a long time ago- and that is me.

 

 

 

 

ETA-Just curious and this may not apply, but do you have another (assistant) pastor you could speak to regarding this?


 

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#66 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 12:30 AM
 
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Just from the other persons perspective.... I have a friend who brings her destructo child around once a week and I have to plan an hour before their arrival to move everything out of reach and eyesight of their child - you set your home up to suit your family not anybody elses!  My dd is such a neat freak that yeah I can leave markers and paints out for her, most of the other visitors we have are fine with it too. However the first time the cheeky monkey got into the paints and and trashed my curtains I learned to assume if its capable of making a mess a mess will be made. The mom apologised to me and offered to clean them - which I declined. I really don't think you should have had to pay for anything - it's annoying but it's a live and learn situation. I would suggest that if they really want you to pay / replace these items they don't value your friendship as much as you thought - it doesn't sound like they are poverty stricken.

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#67 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 02:02 AM
 
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ah, that's sad!- IMO 

I clearly have views on how other should treat others and I "assume" your pastor  has them too!

Throw in the gossiping, shaming, etc., and I would have called it a day a long time ago- and that is me.



ETA-Just curious and this may not apply, but do you have another (assistant) pastor you could speak to regarding this?

Ok, I understand that this spoon thing was on the list of the worst things that have ever happened to you and you are very upset about it. Ok. Fine. Can't you see that this thread is discussing how a three year old did something and maybe a three year old does not deserve such bitterness as an adult who is stupid enough to disregard your very precise instructions as to how your stuff should be treated. Heck, if this was a teenager and you were coming down on the punish side it would be fine with me. We are talking about a three year old. You think three year olds don't deserve any special treatment? They should be punished as if they fully understand the nuances of adult behavior?



Original poster: it sounds like you and your husband are where I would be with this. I wish you good luck. I'm glad you plan to ensure this doesn't drag on. She's three. Things happen. I hope things resolve with little stress soon.

My advice may not be appropriate for you. That's ok. You are just fine how you are and I am the right kind of me.

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#68 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 05:18 AM
 
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You think three year olds don't deserve any special treatment? They should be punished as if they fully understand the nuances of adult behavior?

really doesn't matter what you or I think- the other family wants it paid for and it's going to be

 

 in this case they seem to have enough means but it appears to be a principle of some sort to them


 

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#69 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 05:24 AM
 
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My ds was always poking holes in my mom's tablecloth (from a dollar store), no matter what, he wouldn't stop....finally, one time we went to the store, I told him that I had $1 and that I was going to buy him a matchbox car, but instead we had to buy a new tablecloth for grandma...he helped pick one out and paid the cashier himself.  He actually felt very grownup taking responsibility for his actions, and he never poked holes in the tablecloth again.  I think it's good for kids to feel responsibility for their actions; but I think it's awful to hold it over their heads and never let them forget it.  And some things are so minor, that it just shows you how petty someone is.  

 

I completely agree

 

even at the tender age of three, I have found they CAN help clean up, the CAN understand what they did was wrong, and the CAN help to go buy another item to understand damage was caused and you try and make it right again- I feel this are good lessons and not some special thing that need wait until they are older to learn- they certainly CAN and very much do understand others are up-set (be it right or not) so they CAN grasp some of what is going on-like it or not


 

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#70 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 05:42 AM
 
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OP, I think you and your family have given this situation a lot of respect and consideration. It shows that you care deeply for both this family and the experiences of your self and your young child. I do agree that this sounds more like it may be a reaction against your parenting style. I think at this point a nice note along with the money for the replaced items is the way to go. Kill them with kindness and regret, explain that you and your daughter were embarrassed when everyone laughed on NYE. Make future plans outside of their home (and yours, honestly). It does not matter if they suspect this is because you no longer feel welcome in their home. This is something they need to understand in a subtly way. 

 

I suspect that this family is going to draw negativity and gossip towards them in the near future. When that day comes, I think members of your social/church group will ask you to participate, knowing or suspecting that you were one of the first families to be on the receiving end of this sort of behavior. Be prepared to take the high-road.

 

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#71 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 05:51 AM
 
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Basically in regards to paying for the items, it's a non-issue at this point.

Kristha has decided to pay for the items and has said this is a non-issue. Perhaps if folks want to continue hashing this out starting a new thread is a better way to go about it. 


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#72 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 07:35 AM
 
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Be prepared to take the high-road.

 

I suspect that given the OP last post that she and her DH will be walking a real tightrope of sort given this is a "religious" issue of sorts ( I am assuming it is to the other family)-gossiping, shame, etc. and if they are in opposition to their pastor regarding discipline that makes it so difficult. 

 

A terrible position to be in with of all people- your pastor. It makes it hard because no matter much you try others do gossip and there is always speculation placed on your family......until the next family it happens to.

 

Good luck OP can't be easy.


 

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#73 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 07:55 AM
 
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......until the next family it happens to.

 

Good luck OP can't be easy.

I agree. I have been in a few similar situations -- just yucky interactions that nothing but time and patience can fix. OP, I feel confident that you will ultimately be rewarded by your thoughtfulness. At best, this family will come to see the error of their ways...but if that doesn't happen the rest of your community will come to see it and you will be remembered for having handled a difficult situation with grace. 


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#74 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 08:17 AM
 
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I would be furious - I'm so sorry you're dealing with this! greensad.gif  You have taken the high road in every way possible, and it seems like they are still out to punish your entire family.  I understand them needing a moment to recover, as they are attached to their nice things, but their behavior is getting more and more rude by the minute.

 

I know you can't keep a toddler from blurting things out - but the fact that this was her greeting (AND that all your friends were in on the joke, apparently) tells me her parents are making a giant deal about this to anyone who will listen.  At the total expense of your DD's feelings!  What is more important here, things or people?  Clearly, your friends have decided it's the former.  They have displayed none of the sensitivity or tact you've employed at all - and regardless of whether they foresaw the problem or not, they have to accept *some* responsibility for introducing the weapons of mass destruction!

 

I don't think these people are really great friends, honestly.  I can give them leeway for an overreaction, but this is just rude and inconsiderate.  Shoving the video monitor into your hands...that seems clearly judgmental, but even if that wasn't the intention, taking away crayons?!?!  When you are all right there on the scene???  eyesroll.gif  Clearly, they want you and your DD to feel "punished" - and persecuted.  For one toddler mistake, that was partially their fault (for providing the markers AND for not supervising).

 

Maybe it merits one last discussion - saying, "look, I know these things are important to you, and I've offered to do everything I can to fix/clean/replace them...but where does it end?  Will it ever be good enough?  They are just kids and you are partially responsible for this, too.  What is more important in the long run to you - things or our friendship?  Because I'm getting the message that it's the things, and that we are no longer wanted here.  I won't come over when I'm not wanted or where my DD will be treated like a criminal."  Maybe set up new house rules or make it clear you will supervise your DD so they feel more comfortable.  But I'm not sure that's possible...

 

At the end of the day, make sure you are sending the right message to DD - we all make mistakes, and we deserve a chance to learn from them and be forgiven.  Not to be treated horribly forever after.


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#75 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 08:27 AM
 
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OP, I'm so sorry this is happening to you and your little girl. Reading your updates about NYE my heart broke for her and you at how she was treated in their home. There's no excuse for such rudeness -- it would have been very bad manners and very unkind to do even to an adult, and shaming a small child like that is just awful. I agree with a pp who said that no mistake can be worse than people continually drawing attention to and telling others of that mistake. Even worse that he's your pastor and that you have to see them on a regular basis. I think your idea of seeing them only on neutral ground or hosting at your house for a while is a good one. If they notice and ask why you are pulling back -- as they should -- I think it would be very beneficial to have a gentle, honest talk with them about how their behavior has hurt and shamed your whole family.

 

You've handled the situation gracefully and responsibly. They have not. You and your child will come out the winner in this, regardless of how it feels right now.

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#76 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 09:28 AM
 
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Okay, this is a pastor and his family? I don't know what to say. Honestly, I've got nothing...... 

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#77 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 11:13 AM
 
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I think it would be very beneficial to have a gentle, honest talk with them about how their behavior has hurt and shamed your whole family.

 

this is good BUT, if you are dealing with someone (and only assuming here-not all are this way!!) they may take what ever you do as all wrong- if you tell them about THEIR behavior they might not even get it- they may simply look at you and your DD (even down the road at every chance they get) to view how you acted for the reason of everything she does wrong in their eyes

 

It's sad (again not always the case) when you "can" have a religious element that may colors the discipline (and all the other things with this), the OP may be viewed as having not correctly disciplined her child in their eyes- it's hard to say. I certainly see why the monetary element might have come into play for them.

 

I would be very cautious in my decision to truly express how you feel and I surely hope you don't get cornered by the husband without your DH there and have to quickly explain. Some time down the line you will either need to confront or be confronted and that sucks!


 

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#78 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 01:30 PM
 
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I wouldn't have a heart-to-heart talk with them. I don't see that going anywhere. I think they'll blame you and then tell people at your church about it and it'll end up horrible. I would just quietly pull back a bit. It could be that a bit of time and distance (and maturation of the children) will make things better, so creating a permanent awkwardness won't necessarily do any good.
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#79 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 05:02 PM
 
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Intentional or not, how do you teach your children to be responsible for their action? Are they only responsible for certain things- like when they drive but nothing else? If your kids toys cause someone to fall in your home and they break a bone do you just say oh well?  I can think of numerous things- my mothers just had a neighbor's tree fall on her home- they had to pay for it (via insurance) but they had to take the responsibility even though they themselves didn't do it- act of nature.

 

Just wondering how you and others who feel this way square this.

It looks like I missed your question, Serenbat...I apologize.

 

By not hounding guests for monetary replacements or making a fuss over objects and stuff, I'm hopefully setting a great example for dd about how our values run. If my dd was at another home, however, I would probably offer a solution to "make it right", and also demonstrate taking responsibility. I think we're talking about two slightly different value sets. One, the value of people over stuff, and two, the moral and ethical responsibility we take for our actions.

 

Say someone sits on my fancy-schmanzy leather couch with a pen in his pocket and it explodes. It's an accident! Now we have a splotchy artsy schmanzy couch. I would never say "hey dude, I know you didn't mean it, but how about you cough up a couple grand for a new one?"

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#80 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 05:23 PM
 
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Say someone sits on my fancy-schmanzy leather couch with a pen in his pocket and it explodes. It's an accident! Now we have a splotchy artsy schmanzy couch. I would never say "hey dude, I know you didn't mean it, but how about you cough up a couple grand for a new one?"

 

 

we carry personal liability insurance- I would never think to cause damage (accident or not) and say oh well- screw you


 

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#81 of 85 Old 01-03-2013, 07:18 PM
 
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Wait this is your minister and his wife???

 

Guess they missed the part about forgiveness huh?

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#82 of 85 Old 01-04-2013, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, this is our pastor...I don't know if it is a lack of forgiveness (which he has preached about numerous times!!) or a lack of trust. Either way it's unacceptable to take it out on my DD. I have to keep reminding myself too that he is not our pastor in this situation, he is our friend. We've had a hard time at times drawing the line for when we are discussing things as friends or whether we are seeking spiritual advice. I can imagine it would be hard for him too, never knowing when he can let his guard down and just hang out as friends, keeping in mind that he is a human being and makes mistakes like the rest of us. I am sure a lot of people would call him out on things that maybe a pastor "shouldn't" do or say etc.
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#83 of 85 Old 01-04-2013, 09:26 AM
 
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It might be easier for both families if you switch churches, so he will only be a friend, and not your pastor.
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#84 of 85 Old 01-04-2013, 10:40 AM
 
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I am sure a lot of people would call him out on things that maybe a pastor "shouldn't" do or say etc.

 

IMO- values/moral shouldn't change depending what hat you are wearing, sadly many do live double lives

 

with many professions sometimes friendships can't not coexist .......... many a bad hair cut has cost a friendship!

 

 

 

 

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It might be easier for both families if you switch churches, so he will only be a friend, and not your pastor.

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#85 of 85 Old 01-04-2013, 08:59 PM
 
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FWIW, I think if you give it a couple of weeks it might not be as big of a deal as it feels right now.

 

I was not there, so I can't tell tone, but some of the things that have you feeling upset and judged and gossiped about may not be what they seem.  The people laughing and knowing about drawing all over the room - it is possible they shared the story.  It is sort of funny.  I picture people laughing knowingly - understanding that kids do crazy things.  My DS feels horrible if people laugh at something he has done, even if it is like that.  I don't do it, and people don't do it often, but I don't get upset with them for it.  I explain to him later why people would laugh about something like that, but I also empathize with his feelings.

 

About the kid - well, I'd be sure to hammer it into my kid that they were not to do that if it had happened around them.  If my child did that, or their friend, it would have taken a lot of time to draw that much.  I would want my child to KNOW they were to stop it and talk to me if anything like that started another time - not just watch and let their friend get into trouble.  Also, sometimes kids are terribly rude and repeat things they shouldn't.  It's just the way kids talk, though.  This other child was likely not trying to shame your DD, and her repeating the "don't write on the walls" thing to your DD doesn't mean she was told it more than once, it just means she is a repeater.

 

The monitor - possible that the parent was trying to make it EASY for you to watch your DD and be able to stay at the party visiting with the adults?  It may have been offered out of consideration for you and how you might feel after something like this (like you would need/want to watch like a hawk).  

 

The crayons - that's the only one that I'm not sure I get.  But some people are uptight.  Maybe the Dad is just super annoyed about the mess, and didn't want to be worried on NYE, so he took away anything that might cause trouble at all (and wasn't graceful about it).  I can see wanting to have the possible issues put away and being annoyed if they weren't.  I tend to do a lot of "pre-sorting" when people come to my house.  If there are any boisterous kids coming, I put away many things that my kids can play with indoors (because I don't want to be annoyed or upset that some child is booting a ball around my living room, for instance).  If I miss something in my pre-sorting, but notice it later, I will make the item disappear as quietly as I can.  I can see my DH, on the other hand, telling a kid - no, you can't have that in my house - and just taking it away.  He isn't as attuned to small kids as a mom would be.

 

I hope that helps and that you do step back a bit before you worry too much about the relationship.  Sometimes a few weeks needs to pass for things to blow over and be done with and things can be normal again.

 

Tjej

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