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I. Hate. Bedtime. HATE IT!

9K views 137 replies 39 participants last post by  MikaelaB 
#1 ·
I am here for one thing only . . . SYMPATHY.

If you are in a space right now where you LOVE bedtime and appreciate holding and rocking and singing your child to sleep for hours on end because this is such a special time in your life, please don't tell me. I can't take it.

I try so hard to be a voice of reason and calm on these boards, but right now I just need to VENT. And vent hard.

My beautiful boy whom I adore is now 21 mos and bedtime is STILL, BY FAR, the hardest time of my day. I will spare you all the details, because most of you have BTDT, but suffice it so say that he still needs SO much help going to sleep and no matter WHAT we do (early bedtime, late bedtime, early rise, late rise, long nap, short nap, rough play b4 bed, quiet time b4 bed, strict routine, varying routine, bouncing, lying still -- do you get my drift here?!?!), it STILL almost always takes 45 minutes or more to get him to sleep.

And I find it to be tedious and BORING AS HELL!!!!

DH and I need a strategic plan for making this better, but GOOD GRIEF, when are we supposed to talk to each other? At 11 PM after ds has finally fallen asleep?!?!


Feel sorry for me. Tell me your night-life sux, too. Tell me that you, too, sometimes have fantasies of hunting down Dr. Sears and making him listen to your fingernails on a chalkboard for implying that babies fall asleep when they're tired IF you establish the perfect conditions.


But please don't ask me if I'm sure he's really tired, or I am going to drive my car off the nearest cliff.


Phew! Vent complete. Let's see if I have the guts to actually post it!
 
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#102 ·
Iguanavere, I was just having a conversation with a die-hard AP girlfriend today about how we never used a crib with child #1, but probably would try pretty hard to get child #2 to nap in one. I shunned swings, bouncy seats, and everything like that with DD (my first and so far only), but realistically when I imagine having my spirited, sleepfighting DD PLUS an infant, I know I'm going to need any help I can get both for the baby and with DD! I'm hanging on for dear life with my one child, if I have another anything like her I'll take salvation from a motorized chair or a library of videos or whatever!
:

I feel quite lucky amongst my peers because since DD was ~18 months, my mother has lived 2 hours away and can come over every couple weeks to help me out! Most of my friends have NO reliable help around. That's why the Continuum Concept or doing "perfect" attachment parenting is absurd for most people I know. Even if I give 100 percent it will not be close to what a child would get with a real community of moms, aunts, grandmothers, etc. on hand every day. We just have to do our best with the resources we've got, and maybe even start thinking about that horrible line (some of) our moms tell us, "Well, I didn't do X with you but you turned out okay...".


Maybe God(dess) gives us first children so we realize that our intentions are the very best, and second children so we accept that we can fall short of our intentions and still have amazing kids who clearly feel the fullness of our love despite our failings....

Carol
 
#103 ·
[peeking around the corner for the AP police]

I figure that anyone who is sick of this topic stopped reading long ago, so this confession is for you die-hards still hanging on out there . . .

The day has arrived. I am *finally* ready (which means that I am 100% confident that ds is ready at 22 mos) to teach ds how to fall asleep without the acrobatics and dog and pony show. You know why? Because I want to have another baby, dammit! And we cannot have this craziness when I am in my first trimester . . . I know this to the core of my being. (And some of you mamas of 2 helped convince me!)

So thinking that we will probably TTC 6 mos from now, I figured I had better get started. So this past Monday was the official first day, and while it is EXHAUSTING to have to work so hard, and to even not get a break in a given day, I am no longer in conflict over this, so it is much easier emotionally.

Here's what I'm doing at naptime (dh is on his own at bedtime -- I've just asked him not to change anything until we've seen some progress during the day):

We're still sticking to a stict routine (for waking, napping, and bed), but now after 2-3 songs in the sling, I am lying down with ds on the bed and basically holding him in a bear hug. [here's where the AP Special Forces team storms my house]

I tried letting him crawl and roll and kick and bounce around the bed on Monday, but that was the day he stayed awake beside me for 2 hours and ended up with no nap (this is the child who has consistently napped for 2 hours for the last 3 mos or so). So that did not work.

But I reasoned it out with dh that ds is used to falling asleep in my arms, in the SNUG sling, so if I want to change only one element at a time, the next step is to have him fall asleep in my arms, held SNUGLY, but just lying down.

And yesterday he fell asleep after 30 min. (I also added some Native American chanting, bc I think the quiet was also too sudden a change.)

Today it took an hour, but BY CRACKY I am COMMITTED to this!!!!!! I am breathing and trying to stay relaxed, and am visualizing that by this Christmas, lying down on the bed will be his new sleep association. Just in time for me to TTC and *hopefully* be dead on my feet for about 14 weeks!

And if I have another child like this one, I will not let it get this far. But I'm guessing there's SOME chance I may get a sleeper next time. Right?!?!

Thanks for listening, mamas!
 
#105 ·
I swear, Breathe, you and I have GOT to get out of one another's heads! Here's my story of late:

Ds (almost 21 mos) and I are flying solo this month (without dh) and I decided it was time to begin to teach him how to nap on his own, more or less. I lie down with him and hold him in a bear hug until he falls asleep. It's actually starting to work. He squirms a little bit, flops, rolls, pokes me in the eye, pulls on my lips, "honks" my nose, etc, but I am breathing, I am "calm," I am determined. There is no other choice, since there is no backup person. It had gotten better until today, the day of no naps. I have no idea what tomorrow will be like, but I am exhausted tonight.

He still sleeps with me at night, still wakes, but is starting to wake less frequently. Hmm... correlation? I wonder...

I have convinced dh to set up a crib next to our bed so that ds can sleep beside me in the crib (same height, side down, co-sleeper style) because I'm wondering if he just wants more room at night. (dh, ds, and I all sleep in a double bed - not even a queen!) This will, I hope, be in place when we return home this weekend.

I, too, hope and pray for a sleeper the next time around... although I'm not positive there will be a next time around just yet!!!!!!!!!
 
#106 ·

Have solved naptime woes on a regular day. We walk into his bedroom, turn on his sleepy music, kiss and then the door closes. After 2 weeks, he will say No, mommy no then play a few minutes and then put himself to sleep! YEA I always open the doors after he's out so he feels free when he wakes up.
-Of course, Baby still naps w/me but, hey, one at a time.

Nightimes are ok. Timer reallllly helps. And, yes, DADDDDDDDDY needs to do it.
For the first time in his life, my 8mos. old went to sleep w/Daddy and slept 4 hours. Then, I came back in and nursed, he slept for 2 2hour stretches.

OMG

ok, it's night night time.

~~~~~~~~~~
vibes to all~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
#108 ·
The Bear Hug

OK AP police, here I am, discussing this very useful tool.

Because of my back, I stopped walking Dd iin and out of the sling at about 4 months. I'd hold her in the rocker. For many naps and all bedtimes. And she wanted a SNUG hold. She'd get upset if I loosened up and let her squirm unrestricted.

I did a tarot reading, and it suggested a similarity to the tight quarters of the womb...

At about 14 months our sleep routine changed, when Dd figured out she could get down fromt he rocker and walk around. I thought she wanted more freedom when I held her, but it quickly became apparent thtat she wanted that snuggly hold. Even when she was struggling against me, it was clear that was what she wanted - this was something like Solter's Aware Baby approach...another thread.

So in the spirit of AP I was following Dd's lead, and others finding the snug hug helpful probably are too.
 
#109 ·
momcat and Megsmom, I thought of both you today as I held ds to sleep . . . it helped me be strong!


Re: the bear hug . . . Curious, I think your analogy may be right on. My little guy is so PHYSICAL -- there is just no way I could set him "free" to fall asleep on his own -- he wouldn't know what to do with his busy limbs!

As it was, I was lying there today (took 45 min) wondering if I should be quiet or sing, stimulate him in some way or leave him alone. He would get very still and his breathing would slow, but then he would push his feet off of my legs trying to propel himself out of my arms and then we would start over with getting him still and calm. At one point I realized that he needed soothing from me. Even though he's a thumbsucker and even tho he was in my arms, I was very aware that he needed some rhythmic and gentle touch from me. So I began stroking his head and within 2 minutes he was out.

I think I was conflicted about "helping" him to sleep, bc the whole point is to teach him to fall asleep on his own, but again, I was skipping ahead to too many steps at once. I imagine this little person may need soothing from me for many years to come, and once I thought about it, I realized I'm happy to do that for him for as long as he needs it. I mean really, what's 20 min of back rubbing compared to ANY time bouncing and pacing with him in the sling (esp when he's 4 years old!)?!?
 
#110 ·
We read one story lying down in bed, then I sing five lullaby-type songs (always the same songs in the same order since birth) then I rub her head or back and don't talk...it's working faster lately!
 
#111 ·
BusyMommy
How old is your eldest? I have been tempted many an afternoon to do just what you described with my 22 mos twins. Most of the time we do some form of bear hug. They have definately been improving about not needing the bear hug lately, just when they are really really tired. So in my opinion the bear hug does work
Julianne
 
#112 ·
Okay... I read through this and I started to cry.
Honestly. I have been battling the night time woes for so long and I feel like such a BAD mamma for not being all happy and chipper about it. I just posted a new thread in some ways related to this one - because once I face the struggles with getting my son to sleep I then have to deal with him having these screaming, crying, kicking, flailing jags in the middle of the night... but that is a different post!

Anyway, for you Breathe, I just wanted to tell you my story to maybe make you feel a tad bit better.


Thinking, in hindsight stupidly, that my son would eventually get the hang of going to sleep we got pg again when he was 18 months old.
It was horrible... of course minutes before conception he gives up naps and so by the time 1st trimester exhaustion sets in I am dealing with a high strung 18 month old refusing to take naps.
I will admit - I was a pretty poor mommy at times. I tried throwing fits, I tried threatening and in the end I would just fall asleep leaving my son to fend for himself. To my credit, he would stay in the same room that I was in and I eventually learned to shut the door so he COULDN'T escape - but it was horrible.

The nice thing - in this whole pregnancy transition - my DH started taking over putting my DS to sleep. It was great for awhile... I would have an hour to myself every night as my DH struggled (and came to appreciate me all the more).


I cried endlessly over this - especially because I LOVE MY SLEEP and I was TERRIFIED that the new baby would disdain sleep as much as my son.


Thank goodness that wasn't true. My daughter is now 3 months old - falls asleep within minutes and actually slept 7 hours straight last night, woke up to nurse and has been asleep for the past 2 hours (it is only 9 in the morning). The sucky thing is - she loves naps, I love naps and my son still hates them. I have a girlfriend who sagely tells me that HER son gave up naps and then started taking them again and life was good.


Well... EVERY time my son has a nap not only do we have a struggle with him going to sleep at night but we are lucky if he is asleep before midnight. Then he thrashes around so much that frankly I would rather give up my nap then deal with him during the night. I have actually been known to WAKE HIM UP if he falls asleep during the day because I would rather deal with him being fussy!! I know, I know, I am an absolutel horrible mom, but given everything else I do for him (I am a SAHM, I have a messy house - testiment to the time I spend with him, etc.)


Anyway - I caught this post and wanted to sympathize as well as give you some hope that a new baby may actually appreciate sleep. I do have to say, though, my daughter is only 3 months - who knows if she will follow in her brothers footsteps.
 
#113 ·
Kay... Welcome to MDC by the way and
on your talented use of emoticons! :ROFLMAO Thanks for sharing - every child sure is different, I guess.

mb

p.s. My update -- things discussed earlier in the thread [putting off the early nap, and actually waking dd if she tries to take a late one] *have* been working lately. Knock wood!
 
#114 ·
Thanks for sharing your story, Kay. I'm sorry to hear about the sleep-fighter in your home, too!
(they need an EXHAUSTED smiley, with bags under the eyes, don't you think?!?)

We are also having HORRIBLE nightwaking, which I haven't even broached in this thread, 'cause it just seems like too much whining all at once. But I will say that last Monday, the first day I tried the sleep-training, he did not nap, and that night he went to bed in 5 minutes and slept for 7 hours and then 4 hrs.
:

Dh and I were tempted to conclude that he should never nap, but then we remembered too many times when he missed his nap and STILL slept horribly.

I don't understand this at all. But I'm starting to tell myself that I have a special-needs child, and that his sleep difficulties are physical (he has MANY MANY food allergies and Dr. Sears always has those on his list for nightwaking). Sometimes I think labeling like that will make me feel better. Other times, it makes me feel worse!


If anyone wants to come to my pity party today . . .

Last night ds went down at 9:30. Dh and I watched a movie then went to bed at 12:30. Ds woke at 12:31 and 3:15, at which point he stayed awake, alternating between talking, whining, and SCREAMING (bs I needed dh to try to put him back to sleep) until 5:45. And then he woke up at 7:30 for the day.

I swear, some days I think this is going to be the death of me. Really, like I start to think that I may be dying.

Enough melodrama from me . . .

Hope you others are sleeping better than we are!
El
 
#115 ·
I am so happy to finally read people like us being honest about sleep problems vis a vis AP. I feel like I'm the only one some days who seriously questions this "drawback" (or put more mildly, "challenge").


My dd and ds were the worst sleepers for the looongest time. Imagine having to nurse both at the same time, then try to go to sleep, then one wakes up, then wakes the other one up, then back to nursing, then rocking, then repeat 5 times until they are finally asleep out of sheer exhaustion after well over two hours after they first showed signs of being tired!! Then I finally fall asleep and they wake up 2 or 3 hours later! And this process repeats 4 times a night! You don't have to imagine, you've been there.


The best book I ever read was Weissbluth's "Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child".
I'm glad to see others liked it too. We didn't follow to a T (e.g., he allows for letting an older baby CIO for a little bit, but we didn't do that... we kind of meshed with No Cry Sleep Sol. for ways to get them to fall asleep happily). LOVED the detailed info on the sleep/wake rhythms of well rested children.

I can honestly tell you about the light at the end of the tunnel... it took a few months but now dd and ds fall asleep ON THEIR OWN. And HAPPILY. They do not CIO. They never CIO'd. They are well rested and are like different children. Typical day: they wake at 7:00am, morning nap 9:30-10:30, afternoon nap 1:45 to 3:30, go to bed at 7:30. Of course it varies somewhat. Before you shoot me, please know it took A LOT of teaching, patience to get them there. I am also not a genius and it took Weissbluth's book to realize that the constant nursies, rockings, go-to-bed-when-you-want-even-if-that's-11pm, multiple night wakings (each!) experiences we went through needed to stop for everyone's sake.

We were "militant" at first like some of you mentioned... oops it's 7am too bad you went to bed at midnight, time to get up!
That was only needed for a few days though. No one liked that very much, but we managed to get through the short transition gently, with lots of comfort from me and fun distractions/playing.

But there are downsides. Like with all things. They are:

1.) I think my dd and ds are less flexible than babies who sleep anywhere and anytime. If we're out and about and miss their nap, they won't just happily nod off in the sling or stroller or car. They just keep getting crankier until they're exhausted and on auto pilot, but won't really fall asleep well. I'm not sure if this is a reality of what other babies do, but it seems like this is part of the promise of AP anyway.

2.) It takes a day or two when we're traveling for them to adjust to sleeping in a new bed. Since all their naps are in the same place (not whereever I happen to be, out and about). This sometimes makes for a tough adjustment day on the road.

BUT... guess what... we don't travel often and if I can't manage to time trips to the grocery store around their naps or get all of us home from visiting at a friend's house in time for a reasonable bedtime, then I got bigger problems than this! :LOL

Another thing... gulp... this is the hard one. They do not cosleep. They sleep next to each other in the same room, which adjoins our room, and we can all see each other from our beds, but we are not all in the SAME bed. A lot of this has to do with changes we made to adapt to having twins in the early months, but at the same time, I think my continued presence in the room (or same bed) would definitely keep them from falling asleep at naps, and would most likely push their bedtime to quite late in the evening (otherwise, I could sneak away after they fell asleep, but then I'd have to leave them sleeping in our bed - I'd be scared they'd roll off or something.) So I guess my point is that if you cosleep, you need to get creative about how you resolve these Q's/problems while still maintaining the family bed.

Sorry... this was long. Just glad to see everyone coming together on this and sharing / venting without sugar coating the hard realities of what it's like to have a baby / toddler go to bed at 11pm and struggle to fall asleep. Been there. I can definitely second (or third) the recommendation for Weissbluth's book. Saved our sanity.
 
#116 ·
nak...

our schedule has been all out of whack so all sleep has been off. i swear it is the keeping of the routine that is so critical....

about naps - i thought the same thing - that if we gave up naps ds wouldf sleep worse at night....for sleep fighters there is atransition, but after that sleep is actually better - ds sleeps all night - falls asleep within 30 minutes - itsan adjustment - but well worth it - more later...

about new babies - i screwed the pooch - there is a window of opportunity between 4 months and whew\n the can crawl to instil some good sleep by yourself habits - i missed it....more later...
 
#117 ·
But if you let them give up the naps, how do you get a break? We don't do TV or videos, so that's not an option for me. And I guess I'm particularly concerned about getting rest when I'm pg again . . . that was the only way I avoided being sick all day during the first trimester. Not to mention that I couldn't have NOT napped if I'd wanted to. I'll be like Matadora -- asleep while ds is not!
 
#118 ·
Ok - I know - the thought of not having a break during the day by way of a nap is really a scary idea. I resisted it as well. But the struggle to try to get ds to nap, doing the bear hold, causing a 45 minute tantrum, for him to only fall asleep for 45 minutes, then wake up cranky because it wasn't enough sleep and then not fall asleep easily at bedtime - well - what kind of break is that?

Once we transitioned and DS could stay awake all day - at about 5:30 we had dinner and by 7 pm, DS is *Tired* and wants to go to bed - happily marches into his bedroom. And then I have several hours to myself. A huge break - and no guilt to go with it.

I would have to say - that some day your child is going to stop napping and you will have to find other ways to get your breaks. You may have to hire a babysitter or amother's helper.

When I was pregnant and had decided the getting kicked in the gut was no longer an option at nap time (he really fought it!) what I would do is go into ds's bedroom, make the room dark, give DS some toys, turn on my hypnobirthing cd and just relax on his bed. He was welcome to cuddle with me, but that was it. I would not interact with him, except to say that it was rest time. I could usually get through my hypnobirthing CD without much fuss and I was rested.

My son was 2 years 3 months when I gave up the ghost of naps. If your child is younger, that may be too premature. For me it was the guilt that I may be permanently damaging my child by holding him down to get him to sleep.

It just wasn't worth the battle....
 
#120 ·
Oh yeah, nightwaking...part of the stress of bedtime...she's asleep, yea, but for how long....?

Some nights she barely moves and sleeps 10-11 hours. Other nights she's up a few minutes for a snack between 4 and 6. And nights like last night, after I stayed up to give Dh a backrub, she woke up with all sort of orders, some of which I followed "water - table" (yes you can have some water that's on the table), and some of which i deferred "pour - babysize" (please drink it out of the big glass, I don't want to pour in the dark), (cat - bow, play). And the failed negotiations: "Chair" (Chair with Dad!). "Mommymommymommychair"

That was between 4 and 6. She slept until 11 and I swore no nap today and early to bed, but she got sleepy and asked to nap, so here I am, and when I finish writing I'm going to wake her up so she isn't sleeping until bedtime!
 
#121 ·
Just wanted to agree with Iguanavere re: not napping -- dd has almost completely given up naps (well, naps maybe 20% of the time) and she goes to sleep much more easily, sleeps more soundly, and sleeps longer after a no-nap day. If you put your child to bed before you go to sleep, you can probably push back the bedtime to make up the break. (I mentioned before that we all go to sleep at the same time and I have my break in the morning.)

At any rate, I have found that she sleeps the same amount of time either way -- 9-10 hrs overnight plus a 2 hr nap, for a total of 11-12 hours, OR 11-12 hours overnight -- so you don't actually have less time, it's just redistributed.
 
#122 ·
What gets me about the whole sleep issue is that just when I think we're onto some great improvement, kaboom, something happens that throws us back to chaos. Part of it is that we're moving in 2 weeks and life is crazy. Part is that *I* am not very good at keeping a schedule of always eating at the same time, going to bed at the same time, etc. But I swear part of it must have something to do with the way the wind is blowing a certain day. Then I feel doubly bummed b/c I thought whatever issue had been resolved. Ha! I think the common theme of having a spirited child is that just when you get optimistic and think you might be a step ahead...you find yourself behind once again, scratching your head and wondering what happened.

Here is one idea I thought was great that came from an experienced mom: I'm working on getting DD to fall asleep on her own by shortening the time I spend with her at night and at naps. So instead of lying with her till she falls asleep (after the other parts of our routine), I've been getting up while she's still awake, shortening the interval of how long I lie there. Lately
she is getting into a pattern of getting out of bed after I leave and yelling for me basically as many times as I'll come back. Not a cool habit to teach her I'll run back upstairs 6 or 8 times. So this mom suggested what she did with her daughter, which was telling her, "I'm going to leave the room now, but I'll come back in 10 minutes and check on you." Then she would always follow through, but not give in to demands for her to come back before 10 minutes. Unless it was urgent, of course. 5 minutes might be better with some kids, and of course my DD is 2.5 years old and can understand this concept fairly well - it might not be appropriate for young kids. I tried it for the first time last night, it wasn't immediately successful but I have hope it will be a good longterm tool. I think my daughter calls for me to come back b/c she feels lonely and doesn't know when/if I'll come back. Letting her know I will be back in 10 minutes and following through will take away the worry of whether I'll be back, so I think it will help once she gets used to it.

Carol
 
#123 ·
OMG, where have you ladies been? I thought I was the only one! I have talked to other mothers, posted a little here, but now I know that I have a SLEEP FIGHTER. Maybe she's spirited, too, I don't know what the definition is.

Don't take this the wrong way, Breathe, but I would kill for a 45 minute bedtime. It takes me (and sometime DH) 3 to 6 HOURS to get my dd to sleep. That's after dinner and after the bath. And she won't take a pacifier or her thumb, so she sucks me all night long, AND I can't leave her alone in bed at all. Not for even an hour. I get no breaks, no naps, no movies. I have been doing this for nearly a year and I am just about burned out. I really think I need to do some drastic changes.

I read all of these posts to your e-mail and I thought I was goin to cry. I know now that it won't get better, it wont' just go away. I need to make some real changes. Good to hear about the no nap days, I kept thinking that all those sleep books that talk about lack of naps making for worse sleep at night but it's not really true for DD.

I feel better. And I am also worried now.

Jessica
 
#124 ·
Hi Jessica, and Welcome to the Sisterhood of Sleep-Deprived Mamas! I'm so sorry you're having such a rough time. That sounds REALLY difficult!

3-6 hours sounds like a problem . . . Do you want to go into more detail to see if anyone here has any ideas? Granted, we're not the most successful bunch of sleep-inducers, but you can bet your booty that we have tried it ALL!


Feel free to vent more, if needed. I hate to think of you sitting out there worrying! (altho it looks like we're in the same town, so you're actually not that far away!)
 
#125 ·
Hi Breathe,

I am just catching up on the whole 7 pages of the thread. It took me a while since I don't get to go online that much. I had pretty much given up MDC for advice, for similar reasons that you mentioned in an earlier post. OH, those rants against AP! My favorite thing to say to my husband is "we need to let her cry" or "I am weaning her TOMOROW".

My girl is only 11.5 months old! She can fight sleep like, well, like a toddler! Today she woke up at 8:30am, slept for 30 minutes (in a jogging stroller) and we actually got her to sleep at 7:30. My DH took over at 8:00 and was able to put her down IN BED ALONE until now (10pm). This was such a rare golden evening for me I had a glass of wine. Plus I found this thread!

I had just come to the same point about a rigid schedule maybe working. I had done all the "mistakes" that you had done. Especially sleeping late in the morning. It was hard because of the hypothyroidism (another story) but now I have more energy I need to just wake her up at the same time every d ay.

I am in Durham, where are you?
 
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