Need help with tandem nursing - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 24 Old 08-31-2010, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 581
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It has been 6 weeks and I am struggling with tandem nursing. My oldest is 29 months. When I got pregnant, I decided to take nursing him one day at a time. I wasn't really looking forward to tandem nursing, but I didn't want to wean him.

But now he nurses every time the baby nurses, and more! So much so that he is barely taking in any solids. He isn't nightweaned and nurses more than his little sister during the night. Refusing him is close to impossible, he has a meltdown, full-blown tantrum whenever I solidly refuse him.

How do you set limits? Will it get better? I am wishing I had weaned him now...it is just so hard.
kdaisy is offline  
#2 of 24 Old 08-31-2010, 06:18 PM
 
ewe+lamb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: just journeying along .....
Posts: 2,268
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh wow - I remember those days/weeks, big - it's not easy when the wee ones are like this. My dd was slightly older but still only 6 months and I can still hear her voice. Anyway I had her do some little jobs to help me with the baby, plus she had a 'baby' of her own that she could nurse too, some boys will do this as well, so the jobs were like getting a nappy for the baby so that she could help me change ds, picking up the phone for me, bringing books and most of all letting her baby brother nurse first and once he had his fill then she could nurse, but he had to nurse first, this is what big brothers and sisters do - or that's how we tried to put it forward - you may have already have done this but it did work for us. Also, i had her help me and her father do up her room, she chose the colour, helped paint, decorate, choose sheets etc for the bed, help make the bed and all that sort of thing; that gave her a great sense of achievement and although she didn't actually sleep in her room, it was still her space, something that she had acheived, I'm not sure if you are able to do that but it worked for us.

One other thing we set up was to draw expression faces on paper plates (bit like the emoticons)and stick them on the wall, then when she was frustrated and couldn't explain - even in sign, what she wanted to say she still had an outlet to show us what was going on.

Anyway i can really get you on this, but you can get through this - if you want and to see your tandem nurslings inviting each other to join in with the meal, holding hands whilst nursing and then later on when the tandem nursing has finished to see them play so well together really is a joy, but then I can so understand the feelings of ARGGGGGGH that you are in at the moment; and it only works if it works for you both. hang in there, keep posting

ewe + dh = our little lambs + we and have many just : and : life .
ewe+lamb is offline  
#3 of 24 Old 09-03-2010, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 581
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for the suggestions. I like the emoticon faces idea. Right now he seems to be going through so much more than sharing nursing. Most anything I try to get him to do is answered with "No!". He isn't open to much of anything these days except nursing. Though he does great with other people. It seems tough just between the two of us.

At this point I am wishing I had weaned him when I got pregnant. Though that did seem impossible at the time. I am not enjoying it. I just want to nurse my newborn. His nursing is so aggressive that I am developing real pain in one breast (his favorite).

At the very least I want to nightwean him. But it never seems so be a good night to try it for DH. And I also don't want to add to his trouble adjusting to his new baby sister.

Any ideas of when weaning wouldn't be too soon after introducing a new sibling? I really feel like I can't do this any more.
kdaisy is offline  
#4 of 24 Old 09-03-2010, 08:21 PM
 
HaikuMommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA - moving to Maui soon
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was about to start my own "TANDEM NURSING SUCKS" thread when I saw your thread. It is driving me crazy.

My 25mo DD is a total boobhound. Always has been. I loved breastfeeding her for the first year. I weaned her for a few months at 13mo to TTC, got preg with my newborn DD right away. She persisted so much I let her start nursing again at 16mo, even with no milk. One reason I did is that she started scratching, pinching, pulling, and touching my breasts constantly when weaned. So I let her nurse to stop that behavior. Well, now she nurses but still scratches and paws my breasts all the time anyway! The scratching drives me NUTS, especially when she does it while nursing.

She wants to nurse everytime the baby does, and throws a fit usually if told to wait. Sometimes we can distract her, but usually not. She is now waking at night to nurse, even though she was previously night-weaned! It's like she has radar and knows when the newborn is nursing at night, and wakes so SHE can nurse too/instead. We are not getting any sleep between the two of them waking to nurse, and it seems like I am breastfeeding constantly. I HATE IT. I am almost tempted to wean my newborn and use formula just to stop nursing my 2yo toddler. (She is the size of a 3.5 yo, btw -- and has cut back on solid food because she is breastfeeding so much!)

She is moody, demanding, super-emotional, and clingy to mama lately too. I feel bad because we had to move 2 months before the baby came, and now we are going to have to move again in 3 more months. I know all these changes have been hard on her. But my breasts can't take it, they hurt and sting all the time! I am tired, stressed, and OVER IT! I don't know what to do, especially since weaning didn't go so well last time. I'm thinking my toddler is "high needs", in other words she is a very intense, strong-willed girl. I need to pull some better parenting out of my hat or I'm going to lose it.

Sorry, no advice, just commiserating...

Happily married mother of DD1 (10/87), DD2 (7/08), and DD3 (8/10)
HaikuMommy is offline  
#5 of 24 Old 09-04-2010, 04:35 AM
 
ewe+lamb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: just journeying along .....
Posts: 2,268
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ohh I can so relate with you guys, I wish there was something I could do, I guess i would night wean too at this stage, I wasn't nursing dd at night when ds came along, maybe from the solid p.o.v. you could give solids and tell them that they need to eat - at least some of it, before nursing - contrary to all nursing guides so that the nursing cuts down slowly would that help, maybe use a wrap with the baby so that nursing is slightly more complicated. For the pinching scratching, I would explain that this is my body and I give her milk, but if she scratches and hurts me then it makes me not want to nurse, even at 2 a wee one can understand this. Adventures in Tandem Nursing is a great book, gives all the pros and cons and puts your feelings into reality has some coping techniques as well, it does end, there is hope, there will be a few tantrums but you can get through this, keep posting.

ewe + dh = our little lambs + we and have many just : and : life .
ewe+lamb is offline  
#6 of 24 Old 09-04-2010, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 581
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh gosh, Haikumommy, we sound like we have the same child! He LOVED to scratch and pinch when I was pregnant, at least that is done! And he does have boob radar.

And I, too, have wished I could switch to formula just to be done. Thanks for posting, it helps to know someone else is doing it too.

Adventures in Tandem Nursing is a great book. I got a lot out of it. But I have to laugh at the parts now that suggest distracting the older child with a book or something. Sigh...that is just not my son.
kdaisy is offline  
#7 of 24 Old 09-04-2010, 11:08 PM
 
rightkindofme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 4,597
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
My 27 month old has always been a boobieholic. It has definitely intensified. So far I am letting her have one boob per day (I switch back and forth each day) and when that one is empty, she's done at a feeding. There have been more than a few tantrums because she wants the other side but I just repeat that the new one has to have milk and she has to share. I commiserate that it is really hard and it hurts her feelings and she's frustrated... but I don't back down. I'm only seven days in but we're doing ok. Remind me of my big words in a month or two.

I have actually been waking her up at night to nurse even though she has been nightweaned for almost a year because I can't handle the engorgement pain.

My advice may not be appropriate for you. That's ok. You are just fine how you are and I am the right kind of me.

rightkindofme is online now  
#8 of 24 Old 09-06-2010, 11:09 AM
 
HaikuMommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA - moving to Maui soon
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm glad I'm not alone, too! The last 2 days I cut 2yo down to naptime and bedtime only. Still getting a lot of scratching, demanding, tantrums. But it's a little better.

Happily married mother of DD1 (10/87), DD2 (7/08), and DD3 (8/10)
HaikuMommy is offline  
#9 of 24 Old 09-09-2010, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 581
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow, I can't believe you were able to cut down like that. You must be tougher than me!

So many times, with nursing, I seem to take the path of least resistance...no nightweaning, poor nursing manners, etc. I wonder if I haven't just made things worse.

I sure would love to hear "I've been there, and it got a lot better." I wonder if anyone can say that. I am so sad that nursing has become a battleground for me and DS.
kdaisy is offline  
#10 of 24 Old 09-10-2010, 04:40 AM
 
ewe+lamb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: just journeying along .....
Posts: 2,268
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh yeah I have BTDT and it did get better, in fact if it hadn't I wouldn't have managed for 18 months! There are the wonderful moments too, watching them playing with each other's hands, if one's nursing the other will ask if their sibling wants to join them, the closeness, understanding, kindness and love between them is incredible and just so wonderful to see even now when 3.5 yrs later they really are still very close - i think that it has instilled a bond between them that can never be broken.

ewe + dh = our little lambs + we and have many just : and : life .
ewe+lamb is offline  
#11 of 24 Old 09-10-2010, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 581
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewe+lamb View Post
Oh yeah I have BTDT and it did get better, in fact if it hadn't I wouldn't have managed for 18 months! There are the wonderful moments too, watching them playing with each other's hands, if one's nursing the other will ask if their sibling wants to join them, the closeness, understanding, kindness and love between them is incredible and just so wonderful to see even now when 3.5 yrs later they really are still very close - i think that it has instilled a bond between them that can never be broken.
Thank you for all your great advice (I didn't mean to dismiss it!). I am looking forward to getting there. And congratulations on doing it for 18 months! I now have a new found respect for tandem nursing mamas!
kdaisy is offline  
#12 of 24 Old 09-10-2010, 11:56 PM
 
HaikuMommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA - moving to Maui soon
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
kdaisy: There are 2 reasons I was able to cut my toddler's nursing down to only naptime and bedtime that quickly. 1) Pure desperation! and 2) I have stuck to it because my 2yo has stopped throwing fits when I say no -- due to a new tactic. When she asks to nurse anytime other than naptime or bedtime, I say "I'm sorry, it's broken." I stick my lip out and try to look genuinely sad, like I might cry. She repeats "It's broken?" and then tries to console me! She might ask again a few minutes later, but she accepts the broken excuse each time. I then offer her a snack or a drink. When she asks at bedtime and naptime, I say "OK, it's working right now!" and nurse her. This has been working for about 4 days now.

I used to try and reason with her or distract her, but saying the boob was broken has really worked for me. I had no idea she would accept this so easily, since in the past any reason given for "no" would send her to tantrum-land. I'm so glad it's working! Maybe this would work for you?

I still run into times when the baby wants to nurse right at toddler's naptime or bedtime, but I can juggle them one way or another. Nursing both at the same time really doesn't work for me -- too uncomfortable!

Happily married mother of DD1 (10/87), DD2 (7/08), and DD3 (8/10)
HaikuMommy is offline  
#13 of 24 Old 09-11-2010, 09:00 PM
 
lunarlady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,330
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I, too, am struggling with tandem nursing, and we are only doing it 3 times a day (wake-up, nap, and bedtime). My toddler has discovered the yummy new milk, and wants it all the time. I'm pretty good about holding to my guns with the limited times each day, but the thing I struggle with is positioning them both so they can nurse at the same time.

DD#1 (3.5, will be 4 in Nov!) gets to have the left boob (she laid claim to it as hers) and my newborn (3 weeks today) gets the right. But I can't seem to find a position to nurse them both in that doesn't make me uncomfortable. Somebody's chin is digging into me, or I'm holding my newborn in an awkward way that starts to hurt after a couple minutes, or...well, you get the picture. Does "Adventures in Tandem Nursing" have some positioning suggestions? They don't have it at my local library, so I'd have to buy it online.

CD'ing, homebirthing, milk making school teacher. Supporting my family on my income and trying to get out of debt in 2013!
lunarlady is offline  
#14 of 24 Old 09-12-2010, 04:16 PM
 
porcelina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,340
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Arg, this is what I fear about tandem nursing. Currently 38 weeks pregnant. My toddler is very high needs, and also throws a full out tantrum if I refuse (at night) or cut him off (at naps). If I refuse during the day, it's usually okay, as long as we can do something else. But, at night, it is yelling and screaming that lasts for at least 30 minutes. We had managed to night wean from nursing every 2 hours to just waking once between 4 and 5. Now, he's waking again 2-3 times between 3 and 6. I fear it is only going to get worse when baby is here. We tried cold turkey weaning for about 3 days, a couple of months ago, but I felt horrible about it, so went back. My DH thinks that was a big mistake. After our recent regressions (before baby even here) I can't help but wonder if he's right!!

I'm going to keep following this thread to see how everyone is doing!

Mama to angel1.gif angel1.gif angel1.gif angel1.gifangel1.gif

DS1 (6) jog.gif , DS2 (3)sleepytime.gifbaby.gif DD is here!

porcelina is offline  
#15 of 24 Old 09-15-2010, 02:44 PM
 
ssantos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I went through this and it definitely got better. My best advice is to nurse them at the same time. DD1 was 19 months old and nursing 3 times a day when dd2 was born. I had night weaned dd1 at 10 months. When dd2 came along, dd1 wanted to nurse every time dd1 nursed plus more (10+ times a day, but short sessions). Nursing them both at the same time was so peaceful. I could watch TV, read, get on the phone. No one was crying/screaming because their mouths were full. They both gradually nursed less and less. DD1 weaned herself a month shy of 4, and dd2 just turned 4 and is nursing 2 to 3 times a day. It has been a great experience.

"Mothering your Nursing Toddler" is a great book, and really motivated me to keep going when I wanted to quit. Hang in there.
ssantos is offline  
#16 of 24 Old 09-15-2010, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 581
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for the book recommendation.

I also have to say that at 8 weeks it is getting slightly better. DS does not have to nurse every time DD is now, and it is usually shorter now. But the nights are still hard. It mostly drives me crazy that my 2 mo sleeps better than my 2.5 yo!! He wakes her up!
kdaisy is offline  
#17 of 24 Old 09-15-2010, 03:53 PM
 
claras_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: California Central Coast
Posts: 2,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewe+lamb View Post
Oh yeah I have BTDT and it did get better, in fact if it hadn't I wouldn't have managed for 18 months! There are the wonderful moments too, watching them playing with each other's hands, if one's nursing the other will ask if their sibling wants to join them, the closeness, understanding, kindness and love between them is incredible and just so wonderful to see even now when 3.5 yrs later they really are still very close - i think that it has instilled a bond between them that can never be broken.


I think it may be different with different kids, or with a different age gap. Dd1 is almost 4.5 years older than dd2. Dd2 is almost 18 months now. If they're both nursing, they compete. If one latches off, the other dives for the empty spot, even if previously seemingly perfectly happy with her side. They push on each other. Dd2 is getting really possessive of both breasts--I have to stay she's at least equally the instigator of boob wars. I've been known to call time out on both of them. This is a change from early on in the tandem thing, where the big issue was making sure dd1 didn't get sloppy with her latch and leave teeth marks.

Don't get me wrong: they have a very strong attachment to each other. I'm just not seeing it play out in the same way you have. The relationship between your kids sounds really lovely.

Mom of two girls.
claras_mom is offline  
#18 of 24 Old 09-16-2010, 12:45 PM
 
HaikuMommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA - moving to Maui soon
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have managed to stick to nursing 2yo at naptime and bedtime only (with maybe two exceptions) for about 9 days now. That seems to be working out alright, but in other ways my 2yo is driving me crazy. She has become very difficult, testing us every chance she gets. She does things like open the refrigerator and sit in front of the open door, refusing to move for anything. When we pick her up to close the door, she throws a huge tantrum. We bought a fridge lock now, but it's always some kind of frustration like that lately.

She has also become what I call "all body, no brain" -- she climbs all over us and the furniture. She sticks to us like glue and rolls around on us whenever we sit down. She is exactly 25.5 months but is 37 lbs and the size of a 4 year old. She climbs on furniture and runs/wiggles around until she falls off and hurts herself. Basically, she's climbing the walls. She has a black eye from falling against her toddler bed's wooden side rail, and yesterday she fell backwards off the sofa while throwing a tantrum (because I took away her toy broom after she wouldn't stop sticking it in our faces).

I sure hope this gets better. Last night I got 4 hours of sleep due to either baby or 2yo being awake, except during the 1am to 5am period. I hope 2yo is just "adjusting" to the new babe and things will get easier. I can't handle all the tantrums and "stage-diving" on 4 hours of sleep!

I have a doc appt today for my 6 week checkup, and baby has a doc appt too. Then we have a family birthday party to go to, so it's going to be a long day.

Happily married mother of DD1 (10/87), DD2 (7/08), and DD3 (8/10)
HaikuMommy is offline  
#19 of 24 Old 09-16-2010, 03:40 PM
 
claras_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: California Central Coast
Posts: 2,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Haikumommy, it sounds to me as if your 2 yo is acting out in a kind of competition with the newborn. I saw a little of that with dd1 initially--and the whole boob war thing I mentioned is also a part of it, though the dynamic is changed. Both my girls are pretty intense/physical, so I have an idea what you're going through right now.

What you might try, if you're not already, is to try to give really focused positive attention to your 2 yo, preferably without the newborn around. So maybe your dh could take the baby for half an hour and you can do something special (doesn't matter what, so long as it's one-on-one) with the older child. Your dh can do the same. Harvey Karp's Happiest Toddler on the Block has some good insight into kids' reactions to new babies and strategies for helping them through it.

Mom of two girls.
claras_mom is offline  
#20 of 24 Old 09-16-2010, 05:25 PM
 
SustainablParentng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have had similar issues with my older ds wanting to nurse more than my dd. They are currently 3yo and 14mo and a few things that have helped us are:

-when dd was still an infant I spent A LOT of time nursing her in a carrier while standing because every time I sat down ds wanted to nurse

-during the day (when everyone was happy) I explained to ds that I could not nurse him as much at night because I needed my sleep (because we were at war during nighttime nursings - he was screaming everytime I tried to unlatch him) so we started nursing for a bit and then I count to ten and he has to stop nursing - its like a 10 second warning that the nursing is going to end. This worked/works most of the time for us

- when ds was just a little over 2 I started peeing him at night and this dramatically reduced his nightime waking/nursing. I found that he had to pee much of the time and as soon as he was able to pee he would often fall right back asleep - sometimes without even nursing

hth!
SustainablParentng is offline  
#21 of 24 Old 09-18-2010, 04:37 PM
 
HaikuMommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA - moving to Maui soon
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We are now trying to make more special one-on-one time for mama and 2yo. Hoping it helps!

Happily married mother of DD1 (10/87), DD2 (7/08), and DD3 (8/10)
HaikuMommy is offline  
#22 of 24 Old 09-23-2010, 04:04 AM
 
uzra_hashmi@rediff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Everyone has her unique experience with tandem nursing. I have done it for almost six tears and for about a year triandum too. There were problems of fatigue, loss of sleep and nutrition but fortunately the children were well disciplined and hardly ever threw tantrums for being left out. Except for the youngest I had not to insist much about priority. Perhaps the older ones nursed more for emotional satisfaction rather than for any nutritional need. God has been kind to me. Although I have gone dry a few months ago only my youmgest still goes for dry nursing, that too in the night mostly.
Uzra
uzra_hashmi@rediff is offline  
#23 of 24 Old 09-26-2010, 08:04 PM
 
HaikuMommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA - moving to Maui soon
Posts: 266
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It looks like my 2yo is weaning! I am very glad because tandem nursing turned out to be very difficult for me. Twice a day turned into her only asking once a day, and now saying "I'm hungry" instead of asking to nurse. I am very relieved to just nurse my 7 week old. Also, 2yo seems happier now, and more one-on-one time with mom or dad's full attention seems to be helping her adjust to lil sis. Hooray!

Happily married mother of DD1 (10/87), DD2 (7/08), and DD3 (8/10)
HaikuMommy is offline  
#24 of 24 Old 09-26-2010, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 581
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
HaikuMommy, that is great to hear...I am glad things are settling down at your house.

I was about to post that things have gotten a little easier here as well. My DS is far from weaning, but he has stopped nursing each and every time the baby does, and that alone has made it more manageable. I think he is slowly getting more used to sharing. Just this afternoon, DD lost her latch and was fussing while DS nursed on the other side. He popped off to say, "Mom get her latched on!"
kdaisy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off