Is this weaning, or normal? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 06:14 PM
 
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Yeah, well... seems to me to not be brilliant... but follow mainstream thinking- they make high chairs that recline, don't they?

-Angela
When DH and I were high chair shopping I remember thinking "why they heck would you need a HC that reclines, you won't feed them like that, and the baby probably won't be sleeping in a HC, so what the heck? "

So I went and put her in a bumbo to eat her first chunk of avocado instead. : :

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#62 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 06:14 PM
 
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Yeah, well... seems to me to not be brilliant... but follow mainstream thinking- they make high chairs that recline, don't they?

-Angela
"Mainstream" is not synonymous with "stupid".
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#63 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 06:16 PM
 
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"Mainstream" is not synonymous with "stupid".
Too true!! But even though Alegna and I seldom agree, I think she was getting at the fact that mainstream = feeding early. And feeding early = not being able to sit up. And not being able to sit up = needing to be reclined to eat. :

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#64 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 06:18 PM
 
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I know a lot of mainstream parents and I can't think of anybody who fed solids before the baby could sit up with support.
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#65 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 06:22 PM
 
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Yeah, well... seems to me to not be brilliant... but follow mainstream thinking- they make high chairs that recline, don't they?

-Angela
Yes they do and an acquaintance bought 2 of them for her twins! At 9 months old she had them reclined in their high chairs and shovelled in those applesauce fruit cups. The reason they were reclined? They couldn't sit on their own yet. They were preemies so were a bit delayed and were just beginning to be at the sitting stage. But, of course she thought that at 9 months they should have been ready for 3 months already. As the food dribbled onto their chins, she would scoop it up and put it back in. One spit out more than the other and she even commented how that twin didn't seem that interested in solids.

I wanted to scream at her, "they can't even sit yet, they are NOT ready for solids!", but I don't know her well enough to do this. The best I could do was show by example, my DD self-feeding (she was only one month older than the twins) and share my experience of how we dealt with introducing solids via self-feeding. Everything I said went in one of her ears and out the other.

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#66 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 06:27 PM
 
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I know a lot of mainstream parents and I can't think of anybody who fed solids before the baby could sit up with support.
You posted this while I was writing my post. Read my story in post #65 (just after yours). Mainstream parents with 9 month old twins that could not sit up and they were fed solids for at least 2 months when they could not sit.

I also know one other mother who introduced her baby to solids at 6 months and baby did not sit until 8 months. She often fed her in her infant car seat (inside the house, not in the car!). Now, this baby was born with Downs Syndrome and it was recommended to her by her health professionals to start the baby on solids at 6 months because it would help her develop her digestive system because apparently baby's with DS often have trouble with digestion. So, she was doing what the medical professionals told her to do. Poor baby was always constipated and spitting out her food. I don't know what would have been a better solution for a baby with DS, but I do know that the solution she was told didn't seem to be working. This mom isn't what I'd call mainstream, but she's not exactly crunch either.

So ya it happens, a LOT.

ETA: oops, I didn't notice that you said "with support". And I believe in both cases I mentioned, the babies could sit with support, if you piled pillows around them or put them in a Bumbo. But I thought a baby was actually supposed to be able to sit UNsupported before solids were introduced?

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#67 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 06:30 PM
 
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You posted this while I was writing my post. Read my story in post #65 (just after yours). Mainstream parents with 9 month old twins that could not sit up and they were fed solids for at least 2 months when they could not sit.
The fact that you know people who have done it doesn't change the fact that I don't know people who have done it.

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So ya it happens, a LOT.
You know that it happens (and I'm not disputing that), but how do you know it happens a lot? You've seen two people do it, right?
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#68 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 06:33 PM
 
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It is entirely possible that every single mom I've ever watched spoon feed babies was very out of touch with their kid.

-Angela
Wow. Just...wow. I really can't think of much else to say.

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"Mainstream" is not synonymous with "stupid".
Exactly, thank you.

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#69 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 06:42 PM
 
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The fact that you know people who have done it doesn't change the fact that I don't know people who have done it.



You know that it happens (and I'm not disputing that), but how do you know it happens a lot? You've seen two people do it, right?
Ummm, I didn't say it changed that fact, did I? I was just sharing my stories to show that you were lucky to not have known people lacking the logic to NOT feed solids to a non-sitting baby.

And I've personally known 2 people who do it, but I see babies almost every day being fed jarred baby food while reclined in their baby car seats clipped into their strollers.

I guess my post must have come across accusatory or something, so my apologies as I did not intend it that way at all. I just wanted to relay my sad stories that upset me just thinking about them.

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#70 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 09:09 PM
 
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I think the OP would be very out of touch with her own child if she took away the cows milk and tried to return to only nursing. This child does not want, or need, that.

I really do not think it is possible that every parent who spoon fed their child is out of touch with that child's needs. I also know several children irl who started solids early because they were very interested in what their parents were eating and wanted it. My own oldest had no interest in spoons so I have little personal experience with this, sadly. I did so want to feed her all that delicious organic homemade baby food. My child was content to nurse exclusively for a long time. To each, her own.

Now, on the issue of reclining high chairs, that is something I've never fully understand as developmentally appropriate. Unless they fall asleep while self feeding. Babies and toddlers can be slow eaters.........
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#71 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 09:32 PM
 
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***sorry***that was unnecessary and unproductive. (not to mention unrelated)
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#72 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 10:33 PM
 
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Hmmm. I've had some kids wean on me. Does that qualify me for the discussion?

I have had children wean at 3.5 years, 3.5 years and 3.9 years (respectively) and when I noticed that they were slacking up on the breastfeeding, I was careful that I offered more. If I suspected that they were getting less nutritious foods (read: cow's milk) I would revise what they ate. As it stood, I never fed them foods that needed to be spoonfed to them (except for the occasional bite of something smooshy off my plate) and allowed them to choose what to eat off my plate as a guide. Never did I offer milk in a cup or other options for sucking.

If this mother wants her baby to continue nursing, then perhaps she should revise what her daughter eats and drinks. Perhaps she should offer more. Perhaps she should wait it out. All good advice, I think. If the goal is 2 years, then I imagine this mother-baby dyad will make it. Weaning (even to cow's milk) is a long process and I bet this baby will continue her breakfast snack of mommy milk. Perhaps this is enough for her. Perhaps the mother wants to change it. Eh, no worry to me either way.

The attack on Angela is so easy--she tells it like she sees it. There's not any sugar coating, there's not any backpedaling, either. Nope, she's not weaned her daughter and her daughter hasn't self-weaned and I think that speaks volumes about her approach and knowledge about weaning.
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#73 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 11:12 PM
 
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I can't even believe I am responding here to this thread because I just found it...um....well, I don't know what exactly. But ANYWAY, I just want to say to everyone that it is sooo important to remember that everyone's idea of CLW is different and not every bfing mama has read or even heard of "How Weaning Happens" or similar books. And that doesn't make them worse bfing moms (not that anyone said that, I know, I know...but sometimes it seems that is how moms are made to feel, yk?)

There is such a spectrum of parenting/bfing/feeding beliefs in our country, and apparently as I notice more and more, on MDC as well - even dealing with mostly AP believing and practicing moms. So, isn't it more important to give helpful and sensitive advice to such posters as the OP not only answering any questions honestly but being careful not to make her feel badly about her bfing relationship and weaning story? THat is something every one of us will cherish and remember through our lives - so why would any of us not choose our words with more sensitivity and compassion towards those moms?

I found myself agreeing with many things that ALL of you said and disagreeing with some as well. But I think some people got carried away with picking out problems in Angela's posts for the sake of argument and proving points instead of realizing that the OP checked out of this one a couple pages ago, with a thanks for the support comment. So, why continue to nitpick and/or defend over and over again? This frustrates me so much on this thread and others like it - can't we just offer to help each other and then if you differ in opinion so much from the advice that seems to help an OP, leave it alone and move on. Why continue to fight a battle over tiny silly things that you obviously strongly disagree on?

And, as far as the comment that someone made about not knowing any mainstream parents who fed their baby before they sat with or without assistance - SURPRISING, thats all. They must not be as mainstream as my friends. All three of my friends with kids spoonfed cereal to them before 4 months of age. All laying on boppy pillows! And, they thought I was crazy when I said I would wait until he could not only sit up but when he communicated to me that he was interested in eating "real" food. This difference actually halfway severed those friendships. And, these are educated women who just happened to follow what their mothers suggested because they wanted to believe (and still do) that it made their children sleep through the night. In conversations with them, I learned that they all know other mothers who feed cereal in bottles from almost birth and even more appalling things related. So, mainstream parenting definitely has its own spectrum as well.

To the OP if you're still out there... What I think is important for you is that your nursing relationship is comfortable for the both of you and it is something special and positive to look back on after its over. I think it sounds that way and you did (and are doing) a fabulous job as a mom. It may not be textbook self-weaning - but to both of you in the relationship, it sure sounds that way to me. Whether or not it was unintentionally encouraged by you (milk, other drinks, etc), it doesn't matter because she is still choosing to cut down on her nursing on her own now. So, its just what happened for you guys and thats it and I think she is lucky regardless for having a mom willing to nurse her that long!!! She seems happy with things, so good for you!!!

Already!?!?! cold.gif  ~ Lori, doula, childbirth educator, wife to Jermaine 6/04, and mom to two happy and energetic boys - Tatum 6/06 and Keegan 3/09

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#74 of 102 Old 09-26-2007, 11:14 PM
 
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Ok - that sounds kind of mean as I reread it but seriously - maybe instead of identifying yourself as someone who "has been alienating people since age 3" you could present your nursing experience in a more encouraging way.

sorry for the thread hijack...just a bit:
I did NOT identify myself as that. It was a DDDC given to me. Not particularly to my taste, but it is a joke reference to the TV show House.

-Angela
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#75 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 10:09 AM
 
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I did NOT identify myself as that. It was a DDDC given to me. Not particularly to my taste, but it is a joke reference to the TV show House.

-Angela

My mistake. I apologize if my post came across as an attack. This format loses a lot in translation sometimes. My point was that you DO have a lot to offer discussions on nursing & weaning but it seems like you often do so harshly & it seems like you might be more effective in communicating your experiences (and the reading you have done) to other moms if you did it in a kinder way. But, this is a public forum & you are free to do it however you like.

Sorry - an attack was not intended - just some food for thought.
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#76 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 10:17 AM
 
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The attack on Angela is so easy--she tells it like she sees it. There's not any sugar coating, there's not any backpedaling, either. Nope, she's not weaned her daughter and her daughter hasn't self-weaned and I think that speaks volumes about her approach and knowledge about weaning.
my post was NOT intended as an attack (although in hindsight - it should have been a private message sent when I was not tired rather than a post). I have read many posts by Angela & I agree she has a lot to share on the subject. I just hate to see moms get scared off by harsh responses if they still have questions or need nursing support that they don't have irl.

sorry again for the hijack last night & any hurt feelings.
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#77 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 10:21 AM
 
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my post was NOT intended as an attack (although in hindsight - it should have been a private message sent when I was not tired rather than a post). I have read many posts by Angela & I agree she has a lot to share on the subject. I just hate to see moms get scared off by harsh responses if they still have questions or need nursing support that they don't have irl.

sorry again for the hijack last night & any hurt feelings.
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#78 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 03:12 PM
 
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Well, the perfect example was when I watched SIL shovel 3 jars into her 5mo.

Babe was in a carseat. Mom would scoop, use spoon to pry mouth, empty spoon, scoop, use spoon to pry mouth, empty spoon repeat until 3 jars were empty. Yep- There was food dribbling. She'd scoop it off of her face and shovel it back in. Baby was reclined so gravity was against her. The 3 jars were done in well under 15 minutes. Probably closer to 10.

This child was conditioned to open her mouth no matter what. As she got older, it was easy to see subtle signs that she was full (turning head etc) Mom chased her down and put food in. She often had to hold down baby's hands to do this.

Like I said (honestly wasn't being snarky) it's quite possible that the examples I've seen were moms who were very out of touch with their children.

-Angela
What I don't understand is, after seeing that, why you would choose to place the blame on the spoon as opposed to the person wielding it. It is naturally insulting to anyone who has spoon-fed their baby with love and attention to the baby's cues to have someone assume that they must be overfeeding their baby. I would like to suggest that perhaps your personal experience - while valid - is not representative, especially of the mothers on this board, and the sweeping generalizations are unwarranted.
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#79 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 03:13 PM
 
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What I don't understand is, after seeing that, why you would choose to place the blame on the spoon as opposed to the person wielding it. It is naturally insulting to anyone who has spoon-fed their baby with love and attention to the baby's cues to have someone assume that they must be overfeeding their baby. I would like to suggest that perhaps your personal experience - while valid - is not representative, especially of the mothers on this board, and the sweeping generalizations are unwarranted.
The spoon feeding I have seen (in public and such) very much mirrored this specific example.

As I mentioned- perhaps every example I've seen is a bad one. However, those are still the examples I have seen and as such they color my views.

-Angela
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#80 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 04:11 PM
 
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The spoon feeding I have seen (in public and such) very much mirrored this specific example.

As I mentioned- perhaps every example I've seen is a bad one. However, those are still the examples I have seen and as such they color my views.

-Angela
And the experiences related to you by the many women on this board who say your generalizations do not apply to them do not factor in to your opinion in any way? Or perhaps you think they are all either lying or self-deluded?

Why not simply advise people to pay careful attention to their baby's cues rather than the blanket "stop spoon feeding"? That is the real issue, after all, isn't it?
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#81 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 07:04 PM
 
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And the experiences related to you by the many women on this board who say your generalizations do not apply to them do not factor in to your opinion in any way? Or perhaps you think they are all either lying or self-deluded?

Why not simply advise people to pay careful attention to their baby's cues rather than the blanket "stop spoon feeding"? That is the real issue, after all, isn't it?
Because I really do believe that there is no need to spoon feed and it CAN be harmful. I believe that it is *better* for babies to self feed. I believe that self feeding is the biological standard.

-Angela
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#82 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 09:46 PM
 
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The attack on Angela is so easy--she tells it like she sees it. There's not any sugar coating, there's not any backpedaling, either. Nope, she's not weaned her daughter and her daughter hasn't self-weaned and I think that speaks volumes about her approach and knowledge about weaning.
It speaks volumes about her approach and knowledge of *her daughter*. Her experiences are not necessarily universal. Her way is not necessarily The Way. I think that's all anybody is saying--it's great if it works for her, but the fact that some of the rest of use choose to do things differently, or have kids who are not like her kid, does not mean we are doing anything wrong.
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#83 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 10:58 PM
 
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it's great if it works for her, but the fact that some of the rest of use choose to do things differently, or have kids who are not like her kid, does not mean we are doing anything wrong.
It's not about a right or wrong way of doing things. It's about finding the root cause of a breastfeeding issue (if the goal is to continue breastfeeding). When a baby or toddler is cutting way back on feedings, it is a good idea to look at the things that can interfere with nursing. It's like pacifiers, it is not "wrong" to use a pacifier, but if your having a breastfeeding issue you might consider that the pacifier could be the cause--it's a similar thing with pureed foods and spoon feeding.
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#84 of 102 Old 09-27-2007, 11:18 PM
 
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It's not about a right or wrong way of doing things. It's about finding the root cause of a breastfeeding issue (if the goal is to continue breastfeeding). When a baby or toddler is cutting way back on feedings, it is a good idea to look at the things that can interfere with nursing. It's like pacifiers, it is not "wrong" to use a pacifier, but if your having a breastfeeding issue you might consider that the pacifier could be the cause--it's a similar thing with pureed foods and spoon feeding.
ITA!

If a mother wishes for her breastfeeding relationship to last longer than it appears to be, then looking closely at what is preventing that is important. I think maybe Angela's brevity is what gets her in trouble. She leaves out a lot of fluff that some of the rest of us include. She and I are saying the same thing (as are a couple of other people) but it just takes her less words.
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#85 of 102 Old 09-28-2007, 12:00 AM
 
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I have a DD that is 18m so just a little older then the OP'ers little one. She has weaned, very much to my dismay - I very much wanted to continue. I nursed my older two(tandum both times) untill they where 2 years old.
My youngest started weaning herself at about 15 months, she has ALWAYS self fed, she would never take something off a spoon from someone else. She was EBF untill almost a year, once she discovered solids though there was no stopping her (and I was not about to stop giving her solids as it is very age apropiate for them to be eating some solid foods - and she was thriving) her number of nursing sessions slowly dropped off and by 17m she was down to once a day(in the morning) even though I would offer numerouse times, she would always refuse. As soon as she refused then she would go to the table and "demand" solids to eat. I tried to limit the solids once she was cutting back to a few times a day but the only difference that made was a cranky hungry toddler that refused to nurse. For 3 weeks all she had was a single nursing, solids and water(out of an open cup)each day. When she dropped the last nursing session I started offering her some of my freezer stash of EBM in an open cup, once that runs out she will get formula untill she is two (I belive that ALL children need BM or a reasonable substitute(NOT cows milk) untill they are 2).
I really wish she still nursed, partly for my own selfish reasons - it's so much easier to spend 5 min nursing a baby to sleep then an hour in the rocking chiar rocking her to sleep.
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#86 of 102 Old 09-28-2007, 02:54 PM
 
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it CAN be harmful
The same can be said of nearly everything. Just because something can be harmful doesn't mean it is in any particular instance. Take co-sleeping... babies die of suffocation when parents do it negligently. But to assume that all parents who co-sleep go to bed drunk and wedge their babies between some fluffy pillows would be ridiculous and insulting. Likewise the assumption that parents who spoonfeed their babies are strapping them into a carseat and shoveling in jar after jar of Gerber stage 1. Many (most?) babies can easily finger-feed themselves before they're capable of managing a spoon, and it makes no sense to me that in the intervening time they should be allowed things like carrot sticks and bread but denied any taste of applesauce or yogurt, or anything else to mushy to be finger food.
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#87 of 102 Old 09-28-2007, 03:02 PM
 
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Many (most?) babies can easily finger-feed themselves before they're capable of managing a spoon, and it makes no sense to me that in the intervening time they should be allowed things like carrot sticks and bread but denied any taste of applesauce or yogurt, or anything else to mushy to be finger food.
If you read my posts you will notice that I often clarify that a taste here and there is great. That is not what I'm calling "spoon feeding"

-Angela
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#88 of 102 Old 09-28-2007, 05:14 PM
 
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The same can be said of nearly everything. Just because something can be harmful doesn't mean it is in any particular instance.
I think the point was that it is something that can interfere with breastfeeding. If you're having issues--like the OP--you would want to look at all the potential causes.
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#89 of 102 Old 09-28-2007, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow. That was a lot of posts to read through! I just moved house so I've been offline for awhile. I didn't bail on the thread on purpose, I just thought it had come to a natural conclusion last time I checked in.

Anyway. I just wanted to give an update for those who are actually interested in my situation and not just arguing about semantics. And, as an aside, please note that I didn't start allowing cow's milk until she was already a few weeks into her nursing strike and that was only because I was worried she wasn't getting enough milk. It wasn't like I started offering cow's milk for the hell of it. Also, she sucks her thumb, doesn't use a pacifier, so there is no 'taking it away'.

So the update is that it's still pretty much the same. Actually, we went two days without nursing at all (her choice) and then today she has latched on a few times after asking for it but then pulled off after just a minute or two. I life up my shirt and show her my breast 2-4 times a day to try to 'tempt' her but she just shakes her head no and pushes me away. Though she still likes to cuddle up and nurse first thing in the morning. I think she's definitely self-weaning but is still hanging onto it out of habit or just for a bit of comfort or something. She often laughs when she's nursing so it's almost like she's doing it just to play or be silly. *shrug*

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#90 of 102 Old 09-28-2007, 06:23 PM
 
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Except for the still cuddling up and nursing in the morning, I'd wonder if there was something affecting the flavor of the milk....like if you were pregnant.

It's possible it will pick back up again, and in any case, my own experience suggests that full weaning--even if, or perhaps especially if, CLW--can be a very long process. Which is to say that at almost 3, my own dd nurses anywhere from 0 to 5 or 6 times a day; does also drink cow's milk; is not night weaned. And this scenario has been in place for awhile.

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