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#91 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 03:52 PM
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So what about the people who can't store food, either because of the expense or lack of space, or can't afford expensive survival gear/equipment? What will happen to those people? What if those people are your friends and neighbors?
I am big on community.... *big* and I believe in helping out and sharing the wealth -- I have said many posts and threads ago that I believe the biggest thing to "stockpile" is community. However, if someone is breaking into my house to steal - yeah, I won't be sharing with them. Of course if a neighbor came to me saying they or their child was hungry and did we have *anything* to spare, ... if we did, I would. If we didn't, well -- yes, I would feed my child over someone else's (if it came down to it). If that makes me a bad person, so be it.
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#92 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 03:55 PM
 
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So what about the people who can't store food, either because of the expense or lack of space, or can't afford expensive survival gear/equipment? What will happen to those people? What if those people are your friends and neighbors?
Ok last post for a while, dd is waking up but....

I would help friends/neighbors as much as I could without putting my family in jeopardy. Ideally they would be preparing too I try to drop hints to fam/friends to keep some cash on hand, water supplies (one gal per person per day), food, can opener, fire extinguisher, you know-BASIC emergency supplies.

It doesn't cost that much to have a few meager food supplies on hand. A bag of dried beans is about a buck, 20lbs of rice is $15-20. Fill up water tanks for free. Just a little ingenuity and preparedness will go a long way in the event they are needed.

Talk to ya'll later....play nice now!

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#93 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whalemilk View Post
http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?item...UCT&itemID=948

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/...0&CS_010=69486

Do you know what "fixed income" means? Well that's what we have. It's also such that when I have purchased food to last 30 days, there is absolutely no more money for food until next month, and when I have purchased clothing to last the winter, there is not money to purchase clothing again until the spring. It means that I can't afford to buy $200 toys on the fantastical speculation that we're all about to enter a bad sci fi novel. You'd be surprised how many people live this way. I guess we're walking ghosts in your fantasy of the collapse.

Anyhow, where do you get the water to purify if the supply has been cut off? I mean it doesn't rain THAT much, even in Portland. And it would take a couple days to walk down to the river and back.
Are you feeling attacked for not stocking up?

I didn't see where anyone suggested that YOU should have a water purifier etc...just that some of us DO have them and that is how we plan to cook rice or have drinking water.

I also don't understand why so many people on this thread think that people wouldn't share with their neighbors.
I feel like that is an unfair assumption. I don't recall reading ANY posts that say people wouldn't share or that people plan to shoot hungry neighbors.
I think that when people mention the thought of having to use firearms they are talking about self defense from people who are being violent. Not shooting the kids next door because they ask for some rice.

One of my biggest concerns is that most people are not prepared. Whether it be through choice or circumstances. That is the main reason that I would like to have as much food on hand as possible (withing reason of course!!)

If there was a banking holiday, even for a week, there are many people who don't have enough food to get by. I would be ready and willing to share what we have. I am all about community and when I am stocking up on large amounts of things I am PLANNING on sharing with those around me. We have 10 cases of vitamin water in our basement (that we got FREE) and I certainly wouldn't plan on my family consuming all of that in a crisis. I would go and give them away to neighbors, or an agency that was distributing things to needy people. I would HATE to only have enough for MY family to get through for a couple days and feel that I couldn't afford to help others in my community. Turning away a hungry neighbor or friend would be almost as painful as not having food for my children.

When I am stocking up I thinking about the low income apartment complex across the street whose tenants wont be able to afford to stock up. But if someone showed up at my house, violently demanding supplies/food/whatever, I would be ready to defend my family. Just like if someone were to try and rob us now.

Does all of that make sense?
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#94 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:04 PM
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Are you feeling attacked for not stocking up?

I didn't see where anyone suggested that YOU should have a water purifier etc...just that some of us DO have them and that is how we plan to cook rice or have drinking water.

I also don't understand why so many people on this thread think that people wouldn't share with their neighbors.
I feel like that is an unfair assumption. I don't recall reading ANY posts that say people wouldn't share or that people plan to shoot hungry neighbors.
I think that when people mention the thought of having to use firearms they are talking about self defense from people who are being violent. Not shooting the kids next door because they ask for some rice.

One of my biggest concerns is that most people are not prepared. Whether it be through choice or circumstances. That is the main reason that I would like to have as much food on hand as possible (withing reason of course!!)

If there was a banking holiday, even for a week, there are many people who don't have enough food to get by. I would be ready and willing to share what we have. I am all about community and when I am stocking up on large amounts of things I am PLANNING on sharing with those around me. We have 10 cases of vitamin water in our basement (that we got FREE) and I certainly wouldn't plan on my family consuming all of that in a crisis. I would go and give them away to neighbors, or an agency that was distributing things to needy people. I would HATE to only have enough for MY family to get through for a couple days and feel that I couldn't afford to help others in my community. Turning away a hungry neighbor or friend would be almost as painful as not having food for my children.

When I am stocking up I thinking about the low income apartment complex across the street whose tenants wont be able to afford to stock up. But if someone showed up at my house, violently demanding supplies/food/whatever, I would be ready to defend my family. Just like if someone were to try and rob us now.

Does all of that make sense?
perfect sense to me.
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#95 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:09 PM
 
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Why would your water get shut off? I'm asking, not being cute.
It doesn't even take much for this to happen.

A few months ago here (D.C. area) we had a 48" watermain break. We (our entire county) had no water for THREE DAYS! Then we had to boil it for 5 more days after it came back. The govt. SHUT DOWN every restaurant (1,200 of them!) in Montgomery County for about 5 days.

Boy, was I lucky to have had several 5-gal. containers of water stored in my basement.

Ever wonder what happens to your sewage issue when there's no water for three days...hmmm?
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#96 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:10 PM
 
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This is very intriguing to me. I knew a guy who started stockpiling things in the late 80's, because of Black Thursday (y'all remember that??). I lost touch w/ him unfortunately, but I'd be curious to find out what has happened to his things.

Take medicine. By now everything he stockpiled has expired. So what does one do? Dump it all out, and then re-stockpile?

Take canned goods. Same thing? When all the food is close to expireation date, do you give it to a homeless shelter and then go get more, and re-stockpile all over again?

And when do you think the sh*t will hit the fan? I'm not being snarky, I just am a little puzzled b/c people have been saying "the end is near" for many years now, know what I mean?

I mean, take this guy I knew in the late 80's. He was CONVINCED that it was going to happen around that time, and he was wrong. And then the Y2K doomsdayers thought everything was going to collapse then.

At what point do you say, "okay, guess I don't need to hold onto these old beans anymore."

??????????????
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#97 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:11 PM
 
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It doesn't even take much for this to happen.

A few months ago here (D.C. area) we had a 48" watermain break. We (our entire county) had no water for THREE DAYS! Then we had to boil it for 5 more days after it came back. The govt. SHUT DOWN every restaurant (1,200 of them!) in Montgomery County for about 5 days.

Boy, was I lucky to have had several 5-gal. containers of water stored in my basement.

Ever wonder what happens to your sewage issue when there's no water for three days...hmmm?
I don't have to wonder. We had a record-shattering flood in my area this summer.

I'm asking what the current economic crisis has to do with your water service - and I'm still really asking, not being cute. How would the stock market crash cause your water to be shut off?
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#98 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whalemilk View Post
http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?item...UCT&itemID=948

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/...0&CS_010=69486

Do you know what "fixed income" means? Well that's what we have. It's also such that when I have purchased food to last 30 days, there is absolutely no more money for food until next month, and when I have purchased clothing to last the winter, there is not money to purchase clothing again until the spring. It means that I can't afford to buy $200 toys on the fantastical speculation that we're all about to enter a bad sci fi novel. You'd be surprised how many people live this way. I guess we're walking ghosts in your fantasy of the collapse.

Anyhow, where do you get the water to purify if the supply has been cut off? I mean it doesn't rain THAT much, even in Portland. And it would take a couple days to walk down to the river and back.
Those are some nifty gadgets you linked to... but I would never buy them, they are overpriced gadgets.

You can do a solar cooker that will get hot enough to cook food (and boil water if the sun is strong enough that day) from a couple cardboard boxes and a roll of tinfoil (boy, that hat may come in handy after all ). We have a camp stove and some extra gas for it to use short term, after that, things other than wood can be burned... IF it is necessary. I've got a lot of college textbooks that will do me no good in a doomsday scenario, lol.
You can make cheap, simple passive solar heaters to keep from freezing inside if your heat gets shut off. Check out instructables.com

You get the water by stocking up now. It doesn't take much room to have a few office sized jugs of water to last a few weeks... well, I don't think it will get so bad that individual cities loose all water for a long time... but if it DID, those jugs will tide you over until you can collect rainwater, or if need be, actually walk to that river.

We also have an fixed income and just purchased a house, TODAY Yep, we are doing our part to keep the economy going! We have to get out of this apartment and stop throwing our money to a crappy landlord-- so we are stocking up on house. Dh's job is pretty darned secure, unless TS really HTF, and we would be able to borrow from the MIL to keep our house (heck, we could probably move in with her, but I'll be eating squirrels way before then )

However, there are ways to make it through a Depression-- I know our grandparents did, otherwise we wouldn't be here. If you look around you, there are so many things you can do, for little to no money (and some duct-tape, don't forget to add a few rolls of THAT to your shopping list)...

I'm really slow at typing cause DD is needing me every couple of seconds, so, I'm sure I've missed a bunch of new posts, but this is why I am SO GLAD I grew up poor, going without, and had my grandparents stories of the Depression, as well as being homeless myself at one point... It's amazing what resources are available if you just THINK about it.

That's what worries me... not someone asking for help, or asking for food (cause I'll gladly share what little bit of anything I've got, or barter for it, etc)... It's the people that say, oh well, this is hopeless and demand things with violence... And yep, we are getting Dh's .22 from his dad to put away for hunting season, if we need it (dh hasn't hunted in a LONG time)... but you bet your bippy I'm not afraid to use it in case of zombie attack

---feeling like an emu on acid---
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#99 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:15 PM
 
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I personally do not think we will ever have loss of H20 or electricity or whatever beyond random outages, etc. due to a more chaotic infrastructure or drought.

Grace Comes.

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#100 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:16 PM
 
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I would help friends/neighbors as much as I could without putting my family in jeopardy. Ideally they would be preparing too I try to drop hints to fam/friends to keep some cash on hand, water supplies (one gal per person per day), food, can opener, fire extinguisher, you know-BASIC emergency supplies.

Don't forget a can opener in your Go Bag.

I'll talk more about go bags later tonight.
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#101 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:17 PM
 
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We also have an fixed income and just purchased a house, TODAY Yep, we are doing our part to keep the economy going!
Congrats! That's wonderfull!!
:

Grace Comes.

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#102 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:25 PM
 
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Don't forget a can opener in your Go Bag.

I'll talk more about go bags later tonight.
I know, I have a multi-tool in there but need to get a really good can opener. I had a really great link for go bags in the thread that got destroyed , it was mmm....going to get it....


http://www.72hours.org/go_bag.html


As for water getting shut off (city water) might not happen. But water quality might get sketchy if the city starts taking short cuts to save $$$. I want to have some stores for just in case though. We might have to roll out and then I'll take my water with me

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#103 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:28 PM
 
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Something I just learned recently: you can use a solar cooker to pasteurize water. Here's a neat $6 device that indicates when the water is ready. It's available from Solar Cookers International, who also sell a lot of other neat stuff. (The profits go to further SCI's efforts around the world, a very good cause. )

Water Pasteurization Indicator (WAPI)


Another cool thing I learned was that olive oil makes a very good lamp oil. (Well, duh... it's in the Bible, not to mention Aladdin's lamp, but somehow I never made the connection!) You can also use other vegetable oils, ghee, beef tallow, etc., though some of these will be smokier than olive oil. Lehman's sells an instruction booklet ($4) and specially designed wicks ($15-$19 for a 6 pack). For a container, you can use any jar or bowl that you have on hand. So, for under $25 and a tiny amount of storage space, you can have a backup lighting system that's safer than many other methods, aesthetically pleasing, environmentally friendly, and doesn't require purchasing and storing nasty toxic lamp oil.


Neat thing #3 is the WaterBOB -- $20 + shipping -- basically a big bag that you can put in your bathtub, holds 100 gallons of water. Of course, this assumes that you have some advance warning that there could be water supply problems (and no, I can't think of any ways that this relates to the economy, but just sharing anyway, as I think this is such a useful invention).

#4 - to collect rainwater, tie a clean tarp to some poles or trees, and slope it so that the water pours into a container.

There you have it -- four inexpensive, compact, environmentally friendly, and practical ideas, that might help increase someone's peace of mind , and could make a huge difference in unforeseen (though by no means unprecedented) circumstances.
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#104 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:32 PM
 
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Why would your water get shut off? I'm asking, not being cute.
If you can't pay your bill, for one.
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I am big on community.... *big* and I believe in helping out and sharing the wealth -- I have said many posts and threads ago that I believe the biggest thing to "stockpile" is community. However, if someone is breaking into my house to steal - yeah, I won't be sharing with them. Of course if a neighbor came to me saying they or their child was hungry and did we have *anything* to spare, ... if we did, I would. If we didn't, well -- yes, I would feed my child over someone else's (if it came down to it). If that makes me a bad person, so be it.
Yes! When I was a kid, we had a big ice storm that knocked out power for 2 weeks. It was so cold, and we were so hungry. The local school had a generator and people could bring in food to add to the pile and get warm food and company in return. The hospital kept going (generator) and most of the churches pulled together, too. We had just moved to town and didn't know anyone, but it was amazing the way people pulled together.
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Take medicine. By now everything he stockpiled has expired. So what does one do? Dump it all out, and then re-stockpile?

Take canned goods. Same thing? When all the food is close to expireation date, do you give it to a homeless shelter and then go get more, and re-stockpile all over again?
?
medicine-- well, I've got a years supply of steroids (immune disease) sitting right now because I'm pregnant and have medicaid. I can't afford them without insurance and medicaid, can't take em while I'm pregnant... But I'll use them before they go bad! I also have bottles of prenatal vits, and they'll be used up before expiring, too. And food, well, not much of a food stockpile (not like you are thinking at least) but it gets put into rotation so it's eaten before it expires... You use it before it's bad, otherwise you are hoarding, not stockpiling
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Congrats! That's wonderfull!!
:
Thank you! We aren't at a point where we can make all the modifications we want right now, but we've got a little bit of land that will soon be a garden, lots of ideas, and the willingness to do it (take the plunge and go into debt in this insane economy, that is).

---feeling like an emu on acid---
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#105 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:33 PM
 
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I think we should start a thread about this is mindful home management and leave N&CE to be the debate forum that it is. Then anyone who wants to debate the merits of stockpiling vs. stocking up vs. homesteading is welcome too.
Done!!!

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=980933
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#106 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:33 PM
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You get the water by stocking up now. It doesn't take much room to have a few office sized jugs of water to last a few weeks... well, I don't think it will get so bad that individual cities loose all water for a long time... but if it DID, those jugs will tide you over until you can collect rainwater, or if need be, actually walk to that river.
LOL but this is what is getting me about this whole thread. You're worried about say, losing electricity, water, or access to food, because of some "great depression" type scenario. Well, the Depression didn't last a couple weeks...it lasted TEN YEARS. So if the sequence of events is, stock market crashes, depression starts, water gets shut off...having two weeks worth of water isn't going to do anyone much good. And ok, so you're seriously going to spend 2 days out of every 7 walking to a water source and hauling water back? Nope. So you move closer to the source, well so did everybody, so be ready to fight for your position. I mean maybe it makes some people feel better to think that their survivalist leanings gives them an edge over everyone else but honestly, realistically, no. It does not add up.
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#107 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:39 PM
 
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medicine-- well, I've got a years supply of steroids (immune disease) sitting right now because I'm pregnant and have medicaid. I can't afford them without insurance and medicaid, can't take em while I'm pregnant... But I'll use them before they go bad! I also have bottles of prenatal vits, and they'll be used up before expiring, too. And food, well, not much of a food stockpile (not like you are thinking at least) but it gets put into rotation so it's eaten before it expires... You use it before it's bad, otherwise you are hoarding, not stockpiling

.


Thanks for your response, I am really just trying to understand. From what I see on this thread (and hear from other stockpilers) is that there is a pretty fine line b/w stockpiling and hoarding. After all, if you are just using what you can eat then it's not really stockpiling, right?
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#108 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:40 PM
 
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Oops, I killed the last thread. Sorry guys.

I'm stocking up on water jugs slowly. We're doing another Sam's run next week and I'm not getting a whole lot - an extra bag of cat food and some more pasta. Maybe some toilet paper. I really want to get a camp stove sometime in the next day or two. maybe

One thing I'm really looking into is getting a 3 month supply of medicine. I am on 2-3 different medications daily and if something happened tomorrow, in a week or two I would be screwed. I have to wait till I'm running out of my prescriptions before I can ask the pharmacy to order me a good supply of drugs, but you can bet your butt I'm doing it. Plus it's cheaper to do it that way too.

We also have thousands of aspirin/Advil/Aleves around here because we always lose the previous bottle, go out and buy a new one, and then find it. So we're stocked on painkillers for a while

If we ran out of water, there's a pond really near my apartment I could go and fill up at. It'd be gross, but with some bleach (getting that too) it would be edible. My mom also lives on a river, so there's fish and water right there. Sweet!

I'm keeping two cans of formula in our storage so we always have at least a month's supply for DS - although in about 3 months we should be finishing with formula, yay!!!

Someone asked what they'd do with their stockpile if nothing ever happened - use it! That's why I'm stocking up on things we actually eat. If nothing happens, awesome. I'm still going to use my storage, rotate it out, make sure nothing is expired, etc. None of this stuff is going to waste - it's all going to end up in my belly either way

Kris - married to Nate since 12/06, mom to Toby since 1/08. Also servant to two felines. Done having babies for medical reasons.

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#109 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:46 PM
 
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LOL but this is what is getting me about this whole thread. You're worried about say, losing electricity, water, or access to food, because of some "great depression" type scenario. Well, the Depression didn't last a couple weeks...it lasted TEN YEARS. So if the sequence of events is, stock market crashes, depression starts, water gets shut off...having two weeks worth of water isn't going to do anyone much good. And ok, so you're seriously going to spend 2 days out of every 7 walking to a water source and hauling water back? Nope. So you move closer to the source, well so did everybody, so be ready to fight for your position. I mean maybe it makes some people feel better to think that their survivalist leanings gives them an edge over everyone else but honestly, realistically, no. It does not add up.
Nope, I'm more worried about loosing out on electric, water, food because of inability to pay those bills-- I know I can go without and we won't be as uncomfortable as a lot of people. And I can have a couple weeks to fall back on in order to make other arrangements and not panic My nearest water source is in my new back yard, so, nope, I personally wouldn't have to relocate for water, but in the event that someone else DOES have to relocate, they have a head start by having a safety net.

How doesn't it add up? Can you define "survivalist" here? Cause when you say it, I'm picturing someone hunkered in a bunker with gallons of freeze-dried corn and an uzi... it sounds dirty.
I'm talking about people who are prepared for a short-term crisis, and have the willingness to plod on for a long-term one...

---feeling like an emu on acid---
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#110 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:48 PM
 
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This is very intriguing to me. I knew a guy who started stockpiling things in the late 80's, because of Black Thursday (y'all remember that??). I lost touch w/ him unfortunately, but I'd be curious to find out what has happened to his things.

Take medicine. By now everything he stockpiled has expired. So what does one do? Dump it all out, and then re-stockpile?

Take canned goods. Same thing? When all the food is close to expireation date, do you give it to a homeless shelter and then go get more, and re-stockpile all over again?

And when do you think the sh*t will hit the fan? I'm not being snarky, I just am a little puzzled b/c people have been saying "the end is near" for many years now, know what I mean?

I mean, take this guy I knew in the late 80's. He was CONVINCED that it was going to happen around that time, and he was wrong. And then the Y2K doomsdayers thought everything was going to collapse then.

At what point do you say, "okay, guess I don't need to hold onto these old beans anymore."

??????????????
We store what we use and use what we store. So basically we just have extra of things that we use all the time anyway. We just eat whatever is oldest and replace with a new one. It is really simple (but we don't have an enormous stockpile...just about 1 months worth, if that)


Y2K was all speculation. We are in the middle of an economic crisis in our Country-in the whole world really-and I refuse to ignore that fact.
Things are happening that have never happened before, our stock market is crashing, credit is frozen, Major banks are going under, Iceland is BANKRUPT for cryin' out loud, and reputable financial professionals are predicting a possible banking holiday.

This is completely different from Y2K.

I don't believe "The END is Coming"
Things world didn't end during or after the Great Depression, or in Argentina. People were/are VERY uncomfortable, though. Whatever happens we will survive and adapt. But I would like supplies to get by for a little while so that we can adapt without starving in the process. I don't know how bad it is going to get, but I am hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.

Also we are poor renters who live paycheck to paycheck, so if DH lost his job and couldn't find another due to a tanking economy it would be nice to have extra food for a while.
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#111 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 04:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by karina5 View Post
After all, if you are just using what you can eat then it's not really stockpiling, right?
No, I think it is.
Only keeping what you can eat in a week= not stockpiling.
Keeping enough to feed your family above and beyond 2 weeks, I do believe is stockpiling, to a degree. Even people who stockpile a full one-year supply of food will still go through that before it goes bad, or donate it before it does.

Our ancestors (including Granny and Gramps, and a few of our moms and dads) stockpiled food for the winter, from crops grown in their own gardens. Is that just as weird?

---feeling like an emu on acid---
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#112 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 05:04 PM
 
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I can't let it go...
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Originally Posted by whalemilk View Post
So if the sequence of events is, stock market crashes, depression starts, water gets shut off...having two weeks worth of water isn't going to do anyone much good. And ok, so you're seriously going to spend 2 days out of every 7 walking to a water source and hauling water back? Nope.
Never said that... I said:
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Originally Posted by thixle View Post
You get the water by stocking up now. It doesn't take much room to have a few office sized jugs of water to last a few weeks... well, I don't think it will get so bad that individual cities loose all water for a long time... but if it DID, those jugs will tide you over until you can collect rainwater, or if need be, actually walk to that river.
Never said to haul it back, never said I thought all municipal water systems would be shut off FOREVER, or even for 10 years. Just that a 2 week cushion, at the smallest, would give you enough time to make other preparations
Public works were a BIG thing in the Great Depression, made lots of jobs.

And I do think my "survivalist leanings" give me an edge... For most of my life, I've lived WELL below poverty level, been an actual vagrant, slept on the street and everything. I've said it several times, I'm now glad I "grew up poor." I know how to survive on nothing or darn near nothing... I'm glad this thread is here so I can express that. There is food and shelter and self-help everywhere, if you just don't panic and look around you.

---feeling like an emu on acid---
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#113 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 05:26 PM
 
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I don't think stockpiling is wrong but I do think hoarding is. To me stockpiling is buying things (in bulk) that your family will use when you can afford to and continually rotating it out for fresh supplies. It's simply being prepared. Hoarding is buying whatever you can get your hands on and holding onto it for dear life, refusing to share even to the point of letting things go to waste. The way I see things, hoarding is not a good thing but stockpiling is simply caring for you needs.

:
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#114 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 05:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thixle View Post
Our ancestors (including Granny and Gramps, and a few of our moms and dads) stockpiled food for the winter, from crops grown in their own gardens. Is that just as weird?
And plenty of people still do this in rural America and Canada. Especially if you're in a northern climate, "eating locally" means putting up a whole lot of preserves for the winter.

On a different note, I find it really weird that some people think preparedness means that we're trying to get "one up" on someone else. That is such a strange idea. It has nothing at all to do with competing with other people. How could someone even think that way?

When it comes down to it, we're simply trying to get "one up" on the harsh realities of nature... you know, the cold weather, disease-carrying organisms, our bodies' needs for food and water. Those are our "opponents."

As for the discussion of self-defense, and firearms more specifically -- this would be for a situation in which regular law enforcement were unavailable/overwhelmed/etc. If it suddenly became possible to steal from others with impunity, then no small number of people with weak morals would join in the looting (we have plenty of examples of this in recent history, unfortunately). We can't allow a breakdown of law and order. If we did, then the weakest among us would be harmed and exploited most of all. In such a situation, those with the ability and resources would have to show their willingness to take action... not only to defend their own homes and families, but to deter the spread of crime in their neighborhoods.

And I would be very grateful to them.

This isn't "anti-community" -- it is community, every bit as much as planting a shared organic garden, or starting a soup kitchen (both of which I also support). I wish it weren't so, but it is.

So anyway, whatever some members might think, preparedness isn't about competitiveness, or dragging ourselves out of the muck on the backs of our neighbors. I would like nothing better than for everyone to be successful. []
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#115 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MaryCeleste View Post
And plenty of people still do this in rural America and Canada. Especially if you're in a northern climate, "eating locally" means putting up a whole lot of preserves for the winter.

On a different note, I find it really weird that some people think preparedness means that we're trying to get "one up" on someone else. That is such a strange idea. It has nothing at all to do with competing with other people. How could someone even think that way?

When it comes down to it, we're simply trying to get "one up" on the harsh realities of nature... you know, the cold weather, disease-carrying organisms, our bodies' needs for food and water. Those are our "opponents."

As for the discussion of self-defense, and firearms more specifically -- this would be for a situation in which regular law enforcement were unavailable/overwhelmed/etc. If it suddenly became possible to steal from others with impunity, then no small number of people with weak morals would join in the looting (we have plenty of examples of this in recent history, unfortunately). We can't allow a breakdown of law and order. If we did, then the weakest among us would be harmed and exploited most of all. In such a situation, those with the ability and resources would have to show their willingness to take action... not only to defend their own homes and families, but to deter the spread of crime in their neighborhoods.

And I would be very grateful to them.

This isn't "anti-community" -- it is community, every bit as much as planting a shared organic garden, or starting a soup kitchen (both of which I also support). I wish it weren't so, but it is.

So anyway, whatever some members might think, preparedness isn't about competitiveness, or dragging ourselves out of the muck on the backs of our neighbors. I would like nothing better than for everyone to be successful. []
Excellent post!! :
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#116 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by karina5 View Post
Thanks for your response, I am really just trying to understand. From what I see on this thread (and hear from other stockpilers) is that there is a pretty fine line b/w stockpiling and hoarding. After all, if you are just using what you can eat then it's not really stockpiling, right?
See that's where the definition of stockpiling and hoarding come up. Honestly, the line is fluid between the two, and in many cases, depends on if the person is the one with food or the one wanting it.

My definition:
Stockpiling means amassing a great quantity of thing you WILL use up. So, if every week my family goes through a pound of pasta, I can decide to buy it all in one go (52lbs at one time) or buy it piecemeal throughout the year. Somehow, and I don't know WHY, some people here have an issue with buying the whole 52lbs at once, as if that makes someone 'bad.'

HOARDING, on the other hand, means buying way more than one can use AND/OR buying stuff one doesn't use just to be "safe" and letting it go bad. Hence, if, say, my family doesn't eat beans (omg, I think I'd die, I LOVE beans) and I buy 100 lbs of it, then I'm hoarding. Because I wouldn't eat it and it would go bad. In essence, I'm wasting food someone else would have eaten.

The other trend I've noticed is that a lot of people who see no reason to stockpile bring up scenarios (like water shut off, shooting neighbors) which then people who do stockpile try to explain what they would do in those situations--and then those who don't stockpile say those who do are "crazy" for bringing up those topics. Umm, y'all brought it up first.

As for one poster saying that they (single woman, 2 small kids) being the first to go. Yes, you are vulnerable. And no, I don't think only men would be violent and marauding the streets. HOWEVER, you have ONE BIG ADVANTAGE. You are not seen as a threat by most people. In fact, many would be glad to take you guys in if you have skills to trade for food & shelter. Honestly, I am MUCH more likely to give aid to a woman with small children than a man. Why? Maybe I'm sexist, but I KNOW that the majority of mothers are concerned with their kids and would use the food I gave them to feed their kids rather than sell it to the next high bidder, kwim? If you don't believe me, look at the small loans given in places like India. Their focus is on women because they are the ones most likely to use it to better their families.

That said, I sense a lot of classist issues here. Those who can't afford to stockpile seem to be pissed at those who can. As if somehow stockpiling is a sign of 'excess.' Am I wrong?

As for those on the lowest economic rungs being the most vulnerable--yep always have been, and always will be. Do I agree with this? Nope. But it is reality. I was on the bottom before, like another poster. I've been homeless as a child. Food was a matter of choosing whether I wanted both pb & jelly on my bread or just one. It SUCKED. Right now, dh and I are not very well off, but we are still able to buy a few things. Also, I have no qualms about living with family. I have a single female friend who is living in HUD apartments that might become incredibly dangerous. Shoot, she already has had breakins and locks her bedroom door. I don't think worse financial times will make things better, kwim? If she ever said a peep about being scared/hungry, I'd help her out in a heartbeat. Why? Because I care about her and won't let her starve/be in danger. So community wise, yes, I fall back on family. My neighbors aren't particularly friendly back during the boom times, so yea. A few are ok, but a lot are, well, ahem.

As far as violence. Um, during all economic downturns, crime increases. I remember transcribing letters from the early 1930s from a wife to husband where the theft of milk, laundry and garden produce was common enough that they wrote about it and what they were doing to find the culprit/keep their stuff safe, etc. Do I like the idea of more pissed off people willing to resort to violence? Umm, no, but I'm not going to pretend it won't happen.

And the comment about shooting people who try to violently take my food. I'd rather have my own stockpile so that I'm not driven to steal other people's food for my son.

Ami

Wife to dh, Mommy to my heavenly angel, J (06), and my earthly angels, S (07) and E (10)

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#117 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 07:13 PM
 
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Again - what does the current economic crisis have to do with stockpiling? Is it a) in the event that the money-earning member(s) of the household loses their job(s), b) in the belief that there is an imminent (meaning: next six months) food shortage on the horizon, or c) because of a coming social and cultural collapse? Or another reason?

I can understand A. I can't understand how B or C seems realistic.
B is happening to Iceland right now. Money affects availability of food. No money, no food. Too high oil prices, no food. B is very possible imo. C is a more distant possibility but I would say B leads to C. C happened to Russia and Argentina teetered on the edge of C.

As far as things we've been doing recently to prepare for hard times:

1. We canceled our cable and phone. We use Netflix instead which is much cheaper.

2.Aside from stockpiling food, we have some raspberry bushes coming this month that we will plant as a hedge in the front yard. The great thing about raspberries is they make babies very frequently that we can give to neighbors so they can grow berries too. In the Spring we'll plant apple trees in our tree lawn (our backyard it too shady to grow things).

3.I am making the switch to only buying gifts from individuals (i.e. Etsy), gifts that help the environment (Sigg bottles), or gifts that are used.

V

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#118 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 07:20 PM
 
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What is it about cans of food that makes them go bad after a year? I have many cans of green beans, etc that are easily over 3 years old. Are they unsafe to use and if so, why?
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#119 of 120 Old 10-10-2008, 07:23 PM
 
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http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?item...UCT&itemID=948

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/...0&CS_010=69486

Do you know what "fixed income" means? Well that's what we have. It's also such that when I have purchased food to last 30 days, there is absolutely no more money for food until next month, and when I have purchased clothing to last the winter, there is not money to purchase clothing again until the spring. It means that I can't afford to buy $200 toys on the fantastical speculation that we're all about to enter a bad sci fi novel. You'd be surprised how many people live this way. I guess we're walking ghosts in your fantasy of the collapse.

Anyhow, where do you get the water to purify if the supply has been cut off? I mean it doesn't rain THAT much, even in Portland. And it would take a couple days to walk down to the river and back.
You seem really angry about this. I'm the one who posted about water purifiers and solar ovens. My point in posting about those items wasn't to say that YOU should buy them. But you posted asking why people were stockpiling rice without taking precautions to be able to cook the rice. So I responded that these are the ways people prepare. We have a water filter because we like to go backpacking, but it's nice that we have it for just in case also. As for solar cookers, here's a link that shows you how to build several different models for very little cost. It may not be in your budget to build one of these, but my point is that spending hundreds of dollars on fancy gadgets isn't the only option.
http://solarcooking.org/plans/

As for how I'd personally acquire water, I'd gather rain water and snow to start with. I also have a seasonal creek in my backyard, and I live within a mile of a major river.

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Originally Posted by MamaWindmill View Post
Why would your water get shut off? I'm asking, not being cute.
We live in the country and rely on a well with an electric pump for our water. If the eletricity goes out, we will be without water. The electricity could go out because we fail to pay the bill. I also think that if money and/or resources were hard to come by, maintaining rural electricity wouldn't be as high of a priority as maintaining electricity to towns and cities for electric companies. Providing electricity to rural customers is more expensive and requires more resources (more power lines, etc.) that providing electricity to more densly populated areas.

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Originally Posted by karina5 View Post

Take medicine. By now everything he stockpiled has expired. So what does one do? Dump it all out, and then re-stockpile?
I don't keep large quantities of medicine.

Quote:
Take canned goods. Same thing? When all the food is close to expireation date, do you give it to a homeless shelter and then go get more, and re-stockpile all over again?
I eat the food I stockpile. I don't stock up things unless I use them. Like others have mentioned, I rotate through my pantry so that the food is eaten before it expires.

Quote:
At what point do you say, "okay, guess I don't need to hold onto these old beans anymore."

??????????????
I don't think I'm ever going to get to that point. I live the way my grandparents (who lived through the depression) and parents live. I keep a stocked pantry partly because I'm concerned about the current financial situation, but mostly because I think it's a smart thing to do. There can be no harm in keeping a large quantity of items that you're going to use anyway.

New signature, same old me: Ann- mama of 2 boys and 2 girls, partnered to a fabulous man.
I'm an unintentional weasel feeder and I suck at proofreading.
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#120 of 120 Old 10-11-2008, 01:37 AM
 
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I'm returning this thread and moving it to MHM. I am going to leave it closed, because I know there is a new thread started there. I have removed numerous post for UAVs, quoting UAVs and generally being OT.

 
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