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Old 08-04-2007, 10:43 PM
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Well, that's not exactly what I've said. You've combined several post into one interpretation, but that's fine, we all do that from time to time. I do drive an SUV.




Now see, I don't know what you mean because what I thought MDC was about something completely different. I thought it was about being an individual, tolerance, about acceptance, about freedom to make choices that maybe ARE against the grain. A place of support, where differences are celebrated and even if we don't make the same choices on every issue, we can both still respect that we are the stewards of our children's lives and maybe, just maybe we're making the choices we feel are best. I thought it was a place that you didn't have to sign in at the door and conform to a set of rules. That you were leaving the criticism of the mainstreaming world behind and entering a domain where you could be you.

You don't know how I chose to give to the world at large, you don't know whether or not I go every day and sit and hold crack addicted babies, volunteer at a homeless shelter, work as a GAL for women and children, you just know that I chose to shop at Walmart and that I must not be as politically and socially astute as you.

But that's ok, I don't think you're bad either.
Have you read Mothering? There's a bit more to it than that. And the UA clearly has some rules regarding what can be discussed. It's not really a place where we can talk about anything at all or promote anything at all. There are topics here that really are off-limits, as you no doubt know. That's because it's a Natural Family Living Forum. Obviously some things are in the grey area, like WalMart and SUVs. Still they are somewhat controversial here due to their tendency to leave large footprints. Not to mention that WalMart isn't exactly, um, a temple of Natural Family Living. It may be many things, good or bad to you, but it's definitely not really a place you'd ever see referenced positively in Mothering Magazine.

I make no assumptions about anyone's activities outside of MDC. I am only debating the topic at hand, not whether or not you volunteer at shelters, etc. Glad to hear it if in fact you do.

I have explained why I boycott Walmart etc. as it fits in with my beliefs and frame of reference. It never occurred to me that you or anyone else *wouldn't* participate in volunteering or other efforts to better your community. That's not the topic here.
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Old 08-04-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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Yes, it's a free country. You're free to drive an SUV, shop at WalMart, and do a million other things that might raise eyebrows here. The point is that the culture of MDC is somewhat alternative and so yeah, you're going to get some backlash if you sound as if you are promoting or proud of that type of thing. KWIM?
I never thought I would see people spouting the benifit of vaxes and choosing to vax or circ on here either.... but it happens. being AP and NFL is NOT a checklist, there are certain things the site tottaly bans, eg spanking and pro formula feeding etc. But it does not anywhere say you must not drive an SUV or like them, or shop at walmart etc. That is something YOU expect, but it is not something we MUST follow. This is a way of life, not a cult.
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Old 08-04-2007, 10:57 PM
 
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I am not the only one here who feels this way, BigEyes. Why do you single me out?

Frankly, I think my discourse has been a lot more respectful and professional than much of the insults and snide comments that have been thrown around here. Not necessarily by you personally, but there have def. been some personal comments made. Also, I never said, nor do I feel that "all of you" (can you really speak for the whole group?) are caring or uninformed. That's a gross generalization.

There wouldn't be much point in a debate if I agreed with your viewpoint, and only agreed that we disagreed. It's just not how I feel. And while I can *respect* SOME of the viewpoints posted here, I certainly can't respect all of them, some of which have been so blatantly rude, personalized, and snarky, for want of a better word. But nowhere have I insulted anyone, called them a name, or personalized a comment to where someone would actually be insulted. I wonder why you aren't concerned about some of the really rude comments that have been made? Is that because they are coming from people who happen to agree with you?

I am not sure why you keep coming back at me and poking me with a stick, BigEyes. We've had a few go-rounds and seem to have come to the conclusion that we agree on many things. The posts you are referring to had nothing to do with anything you said, they were in response to some specific comments by another poster.
I'm not singling you out. This is a general question. Why is the opposing viewpoint not being given the same respect in general? Snide comments and pitying tones (whether imagined or not) aside, the overall tone has been that we are refusing to admit that we are wrong.

All I am saying is, why can't we just agree to disagree? I am not poking you, I am having a discussion with you and several others. However, no matter how many times we go around this particular issue, I am not buying into the whole Walmart destroys the economy thing. I have given logical reasons why I think this way. I've listened to your arguments. Both sides believe in what they are saying.

So again, why can't we just agree to disagree, without anyone making comments about who is better at natural family living or who has a right to be here? Not every comment is yours, btw, I'm just speaking about the comments from the anti-WM crowd in general. The only issue I have with you is that you keep trying to make this personal between you and me.
The only thing I know about you is that you dislike Walmart and think people who shop there don't care about poor people. That alone tells me you know nothing about me.

Let's not make this about us. There is no us.

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Old 08-04-2007, 11:18 PM
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I'm not singling you out.

All I am saying is, why can't we just agree to disagree?

[/I] The only thing I know about you is that you dislike Walmart and think people who shop there don't care about poor people. That alone tells me you know nothing about me.

Let's not make this about us. There is no us.
Thanks, I thought you were singling me out because you quoted me and responded to my post, so I thought you were talking to me.

If we agree to disagree, then there is really no discussion left. Which may be fine since it is getting a little long and hard to track. I do wonder though, what this thread would have been like if it had been posted on Activism for example!

I don't think that people who shop at WalMart don't care about poor people. I've said that many times. I HAVE said that I DON'T shop there because I care about poor people, but that is very different from saying that you shop there because you don't.

There's no us? Really? But I thought we had something special...

Just kidding. I really thought you were pointing your comments at me though, since you said "You" many times while quoting me. That's all.
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Old 08-04-2007, 11:24 PM
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But it does not anywhere say you must not drive an SUV or like them, or shop at walmart etc. That is something YOU expect, but it is not something we MUST follow. This is a way of life, not a cult.
Right, that's why I said these topics are a grey area. Very controversial. Certainly not banned, but not really too popular, either, KWIM?

I sure hope it's not a cult! Believe me, I'm not saying people who shop at WalMart are BAD. I am just saying why I think Walmart is bad, and why I prefer not to shop there. Insults taken are inferred.

For example: My neighbors shop there often. I see them unloading their blue smiley bags while we're outside playing. They are LOVELY people. I adore them. He is a beloved doctor in our community. They are wonderful, wonderful people. The kind of people you hope live next door to you, the kind of people you wish everyone could have for neighbors. Thoughtful, kind, ready to help you if you need it.

But I am never going to feel happy that they shop at WalMart! I'll never feel that it's a good choice, particularly since they are fairly well-off and could obviously shop elsewhere. BUT....I'll never think they're bad people, either. Nor will I enter into a debate about their shopping habits, unless they happen to ask my opinion or decide to jump on MDC! I'm debating this here because it's the appropriate place, and I'm not passing judgement on other areas of your life. I have no knowledge of that nor should you feel you need to share it.

I hope this clarifies things.
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Old 08-04-2007, 11:26 PM
 
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Yes, many things are *that* much lower (even $1/item adds up when you are buying weeks worth of food. Also, walmart price matches the ads of other stores, so you can get all the stuff in one stop.

I do what I can, but I will shop at walmart when needed.
Same here. I bought all of Kailey's school supplies and 2 uniform bottoms for the first part of the year for $22 dollars. That included:

1 jumper $10
1 skort $8
pencils .20
colored pencils .88
24 pack of crayons .20
1 folder .92
markers 1.19
2 packs of glue sticks .20 each

Even Maxway is more expensive and Dollar Tree uniforms are really poor quality.

Last year it was her Walmart uniforms that lasted until the end. Her skirt from Belk's nearly fell apart at the seams.
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Old 08-04-2007, 11:32 PM
 
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I may shop at Walmart, but I do use cloth for TP and cleaning/drying.

I use as little gas as possible.

I conserve electricity as much as possible (turning off lights when leaving a room, using natural light for as long as possible, washing clothing during off-peak hours, not flushing for every commode use).

I recycle.

And do many other earth preserving activities, but I do shop at Wal-mart.

I do what I feel I can, and ya know...I don't feel guilty about shopping at Walmart. And I care about poor people. I am poor people.
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Old 08-04-2007, 11:35 PM
 
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I never thought I would see people spouting the benifit of vaxes and choosing to vax or circ on here either.... but it happens. being AP and NFL is NOT a checklist, there are certain things the site tottaly bans, eg spanking and pro formula feeding etc. But it does not anywhere say you must not drive an SUV or like them, or shop at walmart etc. That is something YOU expect, but it is not something we MUST follow. This is a way of life, not a cult.
And when did Attachment Parenting have anything to do with shopping at Walmart? I don't see the connection. Nor do I see the connection to not driving SUV's and AP (though I wouldn't drive an SUV for other reasons).

NFL, ya I see the connection to not using these things.
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Old 08-04-2007, 11:37 PM
 
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Thanks, I thought you were singling me out because you quoted me and responded to my post, so I thought you were talking to me.

If we agree to disagree, then there is really no discussion left. Which may be fine since it is getting a little long and hard to track. I do wonder though, what this thread would have been like if it had been posted on Activism for example!

I don't think that people who shop at WalMart don't care about poor people. I've said that many times. I HAVE said that I DON'T shop there because I care about poor people, but that is very different from saying that you shop there because you don't.

There's no us? Really? But I thought we had something special...

Just kidding. I really thought you were pointing your comments at me though, since you said "You" many times while quoting me. That's all.
Sorry, I can kinda see how you would get that. When you said 'It never occurred to me that you or anyone else *wouldn't* participate in volunteering or other efforts to better your community.' that was awfully close to saying 'you aren't trying to better your community,' wasn't it?

It's ok to be proud of yourself for doing what you think is right. Really, it is. But when you say it like that, it sounds like you are looking down your nose at anyone who doesn't do exactly as you do. And that 'you' is you in this case. If you didn't mean that to be insulting, ok, but it did sound a bit holier than thou. And I do mean that in the nicest possible way. I know if it was me you'd let me know.

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Old 08-04-2007, 11:41 PM
 
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Have you read Mothering? There's a bit more to it than that. And the UA clearly has some rules regarding what can be discussed. It's not really a place where we can talk about anything at all or promote anything at all. There are topics here that really are off-limits, as you no doubt know. That's because it's a Natural Family Living Forum. Obviously some things are in the grey area, like WalMart and SUVs. Still they are somewhat controversial here due to their tendency to leave large footprints. Not to mention that WalMart isn't exactly, um, a temple of Natural Family Living. It may be many things, good or bad to you, but it's definitely not really a place you'd ever see referenced positively in Mothering Magazine.

I make no assumptions about anyone's activities outside of MDC. I am only debating the topic at hand, not whether or not you volunteer at shelters, etc. Glad to hear it if in fact you do.

I have explained why I boycott Walmart etc. as it fits in with my beliefs and frame of reference. It never occurred to me that you or anyone else *wouldn't* participate in volunteering or other efforts to better your community. That's not the topic here.
Surprisingly enough Walmart is the place I found Gluten flour, Annie's and other organic items for a decent price (much less than the health food store we have 40 minutes away). I don't use their plastic bags.

I don't pretend to believe they are working for a healthy earth, but I am happily surprised to see items I need at Walmart, so I don't use more gas. I can drive 6 minutes, instead of 40, and save money and gas.

I do what I can for my family and then extend that to my community when I can, and ALWAYS when I can.

I also boycott Nestle, because I can do this. Well, we are vegan, but were boycotting Nestle and their sister products before this.

Walmart, I don't feel so strongly about. I don't like their employee practices, but the people they employ in other countries are making far more money than they would with a local job. I'll have to find the article that states how much, but it was a large chunk more.
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Old 08-05-2007, 12:01 AM
 
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Walmart, I don't feel so strongly about. I don't like their employee practices, but the people they employ in other countries are making far more money than they would with a local job. I'll have to find the article that states how much, but it was a large chunk more.
I remember reading this as well. I am not crazy about Wal Mart, but my family budget is such that I find it necessary to shop there. I buy locally and from small business when I can, and buy from corporations when I have to. We all do the best we can to get by and take care of our families to the best of our abilities.

Half-marathon running Mommy to 3 spunky girls and 1 sweet boy. Spending my days and nights where my kids need me most- at home with them!!

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Old 08-05-2007, 12:18 AM
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Sorry, I can kinda see how you would get that. When you said 'It never occurred to me that you or anyone else *wouldn't* participate in volunteering or other efforts to better your community.' that was awfully close to saying 'you aren't trying to better your community,' wasn't it?
No, I literally mean that I would have no reason to think you aren't volunteering, doing good works, or whatever you choose. Did you mean I just worded it in a confusing way?
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Old 08-05-2007, 12:41 AM
 
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No, I literally mean that I would have no reason to think you aren't volunteering, doing good works, or whatever you choose. Did you mean I just worded it in a confusing way?
Yes. I think several of us took it as 'I don't understand why you don't try to better your community.'

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Old 08-05-2007, 04:38 PM
 
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WOW... Quite the thread. I read the whole thing and want to post as I finish digesting it.

I do think that guilt is a call action - to revisit choice, or find a way to accept it as the best choice for now within your current reality.

There really is a continuum of AP/NFL and it can be hard to know when to support myself/yourself and others in pushing harder towards the more extreme end of the continuum and when to embrace compromises towards the mainstream that can be/feel necessary or preferable given situational realities. It seems like both sides of this push and pull have been expressed on this thread, and like the OP's original issue was resolved pretty satisfactorily with the "loss leader" explanation.

Personally, I do most things in moderation. I avoid Walmart most of the time, but I cave and go our local WM to binge on craft supplies (I also get some at out local bead shop, and some via freecycle) and no trip to my inlaws in complete without a trip to their local Walmart (regional & economic reasons). I acknowledge that even though finances feel tight for me now, it is a matter of choice for me and that is a privilege.

I have a new phrase lately... "when my budget catches up with my values" that may ring true with some folks on this thread. I know I indulge in some "wants" that feel like "needs", and that if I gave them up I could weild more change with my buying power etc., and am keeping that in mind as I continue to make the big picture choices that will affect these decisions in the future.

Thanks all for the food for thought.

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Old 08-05-2007, 09:25 PM
 
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I was lusting after the Britaxes in Target the other day, and man are they HUGE. Our other car is a Toyota Corrola. We could only fit one Britax in the back of that, and probably no one else would fit back there once it was installed.
Not true. As a CPS Tech and a Toyota driver, I can state that 2 BIG Britax seats (the Marathon/Boulevard/Wizard/Decathon size shell) will fit in the back of a Toyota Corolla. And a skinny person that does not mind squishing can make a short ride back there. I have done it (well, my skinny husband has ). We owned a Corolla from the time my son was born 4 years ago until May 07. 2 carseats there was not an issue at all, I had a couple of Wizards back there all the time for my son and his friend. We have a Camry now and I have 2 carseats and a booster straight across the back for my son + his cousins. Also, 2 adults can sit next to a Britax seat in the back of a Corolla and still fasten their seat belts. We did that A LOT in the Corolla.

The VAST majority of families I see in SUVs (and remember, as a tech, I do seat checks so I see a lot of family cars) have 1-2 kids in seats, not 4+. Also, when I ended up with a HUGE Ford SUV on vacation (nothing else available that would carry 6-7) I discovered a fatal flaw with getting more than 3 seats in those things- the third row is accessed by flipping a vehicle seat forward. Climbing back there to do 2 seats is HARD. The seat that flips forwards is a no go for a car seat unless you want to install and uninstall the seat EVERY time you stop the car. : And most mid sized SUVs guzzle the gas but seat only 5. Only a couple of models have accessible third row seats. A minivan can easily do 4-5 seats and makes more sense for transporting kids anyways. Choosing to drive an SUV for having a few kids is a choice, not the only option like so many parents make it out to be. It is called a family sedan. It is called a minivan.

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Old 08-06-2007, 01:52 AM
 
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Not true. As a CPS Tech and a Toyota driver, I can state that 2 BIG Britax seats (the Marathon/Boulevard/Wizard/Decathon size shell) will fit in the back of a Toyota Corolla. And a skinny person that does not mind squishing can make a short ride back there. I have done it (well, my skinny husband has ). We owned a Corolla from the time my son was born 4 years ago until May 07. 2 carseats there was not an issue at all, I had a couple of Wizards back there all the time for my son and his friend. We have a Camry now and I have 2 carseats and a booster straight across the back for my son + his cousins. Also, 2 adults can sit next to a Britax seat in the back of a Corolla and still fasten their seat belts. We did that A LOT in the Corolla.

The VAST majority of families I see in SUVs (and remember, as a tech, I do seat checks so I see a lot of family cars) have 1-2 kids in seats, not 4+. Also, when I ended up with a HUGE Ford SUV on vacation (nothing else available that would carry 6-7) I discovered a fatal flaw with getting more than 3 seats in those things- the third row is accessed by flipping a vehicle seat forward. Climbing back there to do 2 seats is HARD. The seat that flips forwards is a no go for a car seat unless you want to install and uninstall the seat EVERY time you stop the car. : And most mid sized SUVs guzzle the gas but seat only 5. Only a couple of models have accessible third row seats. A minivan can easily do 4-5 seats and makes more sense for transporting kids anyways. Choosing to drive an SUV for having a few kids is a choice, not the only option like so many parents make it out to be. It is called a family sedan. It is called a minivan.

It's funny because I really wanted a minivan when we were car shopping, I was moving from a subcompact and thought I'd never be able to drive anything large. I was trying to decide between the Odyssey and the Kia Sedona, the final test was if it could fit my stroller. I had a triple stroller, the tandem type. It was wide and long and minivans just didn't work, so I got something that would hold the 4 carseats that I needed that time (we've since been able to eliminate one) and the stroller. Sometimes you have to get what you have to get. My dh wanted us to get some 9 passenger van, so I could have been driving that :

It really depends on what make you drive as to how accessible the back seat is (3 row) in our old SUV it had the flip up type seat which is sort of a pain, but you adapt...the new one, very easy to get into the back.

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Old 08-06-2007, 02:13 AM
 
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I am a huge believer in letting my money speak.

For example, I couldn't boycott Disney if I tried. They own everything.

SO true. I've tried boycotting so many things before, and finding out exactly how much they own, etc. made my eyes nearly pop outta my head. Right now I just concentrate on trying to buy local. Bah. And avoid Nestle at all costs.

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Old 08-06-2007, 02:21 AM
 
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Have you read Mothering? There's a bit more to it than that. And the UA clearly has some rules regarding what can be discussed. It's not really a place where we can talk about anything at all or promote anything at all. There are topics here that really are off-limits, as you no doubt know. That's because it's a Natural Family Living Forum. Obviously some things are in the grey area, like WalMart and SUVs. Still they are somewhat controversial here due to their tendency to leave large footprints. Not to mention that WalMart isn't exactly, um, a temple of Natural Family Living. It may be many things, good or bad to you, but it's definitely not really a place you'd ever see referenced positively in Mothering Magazine.
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Old 08-06-2007, 02:40 AM
 
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It's funny because I really wanted a minivan when we were car shopping, I was moving from a subcompact and thought I'd never be able to drive anything large. I was trying to decide between the Odyssey and the Kia Sedona, the final test was if it could fit my stroller. I had a triple stroller, the tandem type. It was wide and long and minivans just didn't work, so I got something that would hold the 4 carseats that I needed that time (we've since been able to eliminate one) and the stroller. Sometimes you have to get what you have to get. My dh wanted us to get some 9 passenger van, so I could have been driving that :

It really depends on what make you drive as to how accessible the back seat is (3 row) in our old SUV it had the flip up type seat which is sort of a pain, but you adapt...the new one, very easy to get into the back.
My post specifically was addressing those with 1-2 kids and also dispelling the notion that only 1 car seat fits in a compact car. Very, very few families have more than 2 car seats it seems yet many have an SUV because it is "needed" because they have kids.

I have 5 kids to cart around from time to time now and there is nothing that would work for us but a minivan in our situation. (3 across the back, a booster in 1 captains chair and a 12 year old in another).

I am not going to go so far as to say that an SUV is not the right choice for some situations. Lord knows, I have never had to fit a triple stroller in anywhere. But clearly, there are way more SUVs with unused third row seats on the road than are strictly needed. And tons of 5 seater fashion statement SUVs that never leave the city or burbs

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Old 08-06-2007, 02:45 AM
 
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I would choose an SUV over a minivan anyday, simply because we live in chicago, and I need something thats safer in the snow, and can be easily used by me, my kids and my FIL.
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kijip View Post
My post specifically was addressing those with 1-2 kids and also dispelling the notion that only 1 car seat fits in a compact car. Very, very few families have more than 2 car seats it seems yet many have an SUV because it is "needed" because they have kids.

I have 5 kids to cart around from time to time now and there is nothing that would work for us but a minivan in our situation. (3 across the back, a booster in 1 captains chair and a 12 year old in another).

I am not going to go so far as to say that an SUV is not the right choice for some situations. Lord knows, I have never had to fit a triple stroller in anywhere. But clearly, there are way more SUVs with unused third row seats on the road than are strictly needed. And tons of 5 seater fashion statement SUVs that never leave the city or burbs
Although I quoted you, I wasn't feeling targeted I was just explaining my own car shopping experience and how it was so challenging. I live in the burbs and not only that, a very upperwardly middle class one...I do agree that the majority of SUV drivers I see aren't transporting multiple children or triple strollers

I guess my point in participating in the thread was to say we all make the choices that we have to that support not only our world view, but our life, family and reality. I make tons of choices in my daily life that would fit nicely with even the most hardcore MDC'er and other choices would be considered very mainstream I try to balance and live the best life I can.

Sabrina , mom to 4 fab kids!

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Old 08-06-2007, 11:31 AM
 
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Just some personal experiences on the SUVs (and I know families need to do what they need to do- so this is just what I have observed.)

I have a 4-door Toyota Avalon. I can fit three carseats in the back, fairly easily.

I worked at an upscale prescool and there was only one family with an SUV that had more than 2 kids (they had three) and their SUV was HUGE- much larger than what three kids need (you would think) but then they travel, camp, and have many extras that travel with them, so really I guess the SUV is needed.

Most all families had some sort of SUV, and no more than 2 kids.

But now that I mentioned the first family and listed the other stuff they pack in the SUV, they really do need it for traveling (which most of them do- I can't say all because I really don't know).

So I guess we have to remember that SUV's don't just haul families but the junk they need for various activities.

I have one friend with a van and has three kids. IMO vans tip over too easily.

*I saw the post about people shopping at Walmart for financial situation reasons and wanted to respond. I shop at Walmart for their prices and would do so even when our situation improves. We live where the wealthy shop at Walmart too because Walmart is what we have. We actually have two stores Walmart and Food Lion.

No Target, no K-mart, Lowes, Bi-Low, Harris Teeter- none of it. We could drive 30 minutes but then that takes more gas.
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:53 AM
 
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I have one friend with a van and has three kids. IMO vans tip over too easily.
SUVs have a significantly higher risk of rolling over. Minivans are actually statistically the safest vehicles- still I am not running out for one (when I am ferrying 5 kids, it is a borrowed vehicle from my dad). But it is no great secret that SUVs are more prone to rolling.

Katie, mama to one big boy (6/03) and one little boy (12/08).
It is never the wrong time to do the right thing.
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:02 PM
 
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But now that I mentioned the first family and listed the other stuff they pack in the SUV, they really do need it for traveling (which most of them do- I can't say all because I really don't know).

So I guess we have to remember that SUV's don't just haul families but the junk they need for various activities.
Rare is the family that uses the packing space often enough to make owning the larger car more economical than renting a larger vehicle for specific vacation trips or whatnot. And it is not like activities can only be accomplished in larger cars anyways...camping, hiking, snowboarding, moving back and forth between colleges etc are all things that I have done in a smaller car with a family.

I am not meaning to say that owning an SUV is always a bad choice. Just that is it almost always a choice and not the inevitability that it so often gets made out to be. There are most often other choices that get glossed over.

Katie, mama to one big boy (6/03) and one little boy (12/08).
It is never the wrong time to do the right thing.
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Old 08-06-2007, 03:29 PM
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I was trying to decide between the Odyssey and the Kia Sedona
Be very happy that you didn't go with the Kia Sedona. I had a 2005 and that thing was a big 'ole pile of crap. It's gone now.

If I ever have another kid, I'm going with some sort of SUV if I can afford it. I will NEVER own another minivan. Of course I don't plan on having any more kids either.
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Old 08-06-2007, 04:39 PM
 
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Things are getting pretty off-topic from the original walmart question, but I cannot resist chiming in on the car thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kijip View Post
And it is not like activities can only be accomplished in larger cars anyways...camping, hiking, snowboarding, moving back and forth between colleges etc are all things that I have done in a smaller car with a family.
I am not meaning to say that owning an SUV is always a bad choice. Just that is it almost always a choice and not the inevitability that it so often gets made out to be. There are most often other choices that get glossed over.
:

We just got back from a trick in our trusty old subaru wagon:
2 large men (both over 6'3")
1 toddler in rear facing roundabout
1 preschooler in forward facing marathon
me in the back with them.
PLUS one canoe, one kayak, associated gear (paddles, PFDs, safety stuff), cooler, food, recycling, and clothes for a week.)

Our most impressive trip may have been:
those same two large men
me and another woman
toddler in rear facing roundabout
80 lb dog
50 lb dog
all our stuff - mostly in bin on car top rack.

You can put a rack on top of most cars, and you can keep toddlers rear facing past a year if they are small enough - these two factors will really stretch a smaller car.

mom to a 7 year old lego fanatic and a 5 year old cross dresser
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:34 PM
 
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Jessica- and everyone was comfortable?

The camping trips and such I am referring to are done by people who are gone most of the summer on various trips and such. No SUV's are not needed for most people and I would not own one, but can see (the families I know) really needed the one they have). Again this is just for the dozen or so families I know that I have them.
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:15 PM
 
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Just had to chime in to add that another reason to own an SUV is so you can fit the kids and the dogs in *and* pull your camper. We couldn't do that with our Toyota Corolla - just doesn't have a big enough engine.

We could have purchased a full size van with a V6 or V8, but they aren't that much more energy efficient than the Tahoe.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:46 AM
 
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Jessica- and everyone was comfortable?

The camping trips and such I am referring to are done by people who are gone most of the summer on various trips and such. No SUV's are not needed for most people and I would not own one, but can see (the families I know) really needed the one they have). Again this is just for the dozen or so families I know that I have them.
Our camping trips have been as long as 7 weeks. (NOT since son ). I know a ton of very active peeps with small cars. As for comfort, not all people demand vast amounts of personal space and "leg room" in the car. We are not short people (I am the shortest, a near midget, at just 5'9"- my mother is a full 6 feet and all legs) and we do fine without a lot of leg room. We are not merely talking about personal decisions here- the choices we make affect each other and our children's future planet. I think that finding alternatives to the largest possible car for routine day to day trips is important (personally for frugality and community wise for obvious reasons) I would be a wealthy woman if I had a dime for every time I see an SUV carrying neither kids nor dogs nor cargo nor towing a thing day in and day out...it is pretty obvious that the driving force behind most SUV sales is not practicality but image and other such concerns. Yes, there will always be someone that needs that SUV for some reason be it 5 kids, 100 pound dogs, towing a trailer of Christmas trees or driving through snow and mountains but there are also those who choose to prioritize other things and stay in cramped compact cars with roof racks even if they can easily afford something larger and even if they have a couple of kids, camp, ski and live in snow. SUVs replaced station wagons and upstaged minivans not because it was the only option- it was simply the choice many people made. All of our cars got bigger as SUVs became popular- an late 80s Camry is comparable in space to a newer Corolla. A 70s Corolla is similar in space to a Echo or something. It all reflects a trend towards bigger, bigger, bigger that aided the growth in demand for SUVs.

Katie, mama to one big boy (6/03) and one little boy (12/08).
It is never the wrong time to do the right thing.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:48 AM
 
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not more of the "i can do it, so why can't everyone else" arguements.
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