Is this tongue-tie/lip-tie? photos and questions - Mothering Forums

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Old 09-28-2009, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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DD is 4 weeks old. Breastfeeding was going very well until a week or so ago. I realized that we were starting to show signs of thrush - DD had a few white patches in her mouth, and my nipples were red and shiny, starting to peel, plus a small bit of itch/pain. I started taking acidophilous, and did three applications of gentian violet. At the same time, DD was suddenly not latching well, and was fussing at the breast. I assumed this was due to thrush.

It appears that the thrush is not gone (although DD's white patches are gone), and her latch is getting worse and worse. Last night she spent a lot of time crying to nurse, then sucking a few times, popping off, crying etc.

I realized today that the frenulum on her upper lip is very tight, and goes right to the tip of her lip. So she is not able to flange her upper lip. On inspecting her tongue, I think she may have a (posterior?) tongue tie as well, but am not sure.

She has been making very loud clicking sounds (breaking suction) with every suck since the thrush started, thus getting lots of air and is gassy as a result. I try to reposition and relatch, but nothing fixes this. Also her suck seems to be much weaker than it was, and after she has fed for a few minutes it actually feels like she is just flicking her tongue at the tip of my nipple, and it's quivering (much like a tired muscle would do).

Is it possible that that this tongue and/or lip tie was not affecting her before, and is just suddenly a problem? I sort of don't understand why her latch seemed great before - unless it's more of a problem with the thrush.

Here are some photos. The frenulum under her tongue is very thick, and further back. It is very short. It seems that she can only stick her tongue out as far as her lip (as in photo). The last photo looks like I'm really pressing her face...I was being gentle I swear!

http://picasaweb.google.com/erinlesl...7W1IvYw5q-7QE#

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated! I really don't have any knowledge about this.

Erin

Mama to DS 02/15/06, and DD born 08/31/09!
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:21 PM
 
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I'm not too educated on the matter, and can only speak about the lip-tie. I had one when I was younger, and had it cut when I was a teen. My son also has one, and it hasn't hurt our nursing relationship at all - but he can't flange his upper lip very well, although now that he's older he does sometimes.

I don't know anything about tongue tie though, sorry.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:16 PM
 
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No idea! Did you cross post this on one or two of the breastfeeding forums?
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:21 PM
 
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nak

It doesn't look like he's tongue/lip tied at all to me. Both my children were extremely tongue tied and their mouths looked much different. The couldn't lift their tongues or stick it out past the gums. If your child is tongue tied the tongue will make a very obvious heart shape when they're trying to stick it out.

It's normal for the lips to have connective tissue all the way to the lip.

This is a decent image of someone who's tongue tied.

http://wiki.bmezine.com/images/b/bb/Tongue_Tied-1.jpg

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Old 09-28-2009, 11:53 PM
 
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I think posterior tongue tie doesn't necessarily cause the heart shaped tongue. DD had posterior tongue tie, and her tongue wasn't heart shaped. So I wouldn't rule it out based on that. BUT, it does look in the photos like your daughter can stick her tongue out beyond her gum line, so to me that sounds like it's not tongue tie. I'm not an ENT or an IBCLC though, so take that for what it's worth

Did you read the tongue/lip tie sticky in the breastfeeding challenges forum? I'd check that out, and post this question there too. Those ladies are tongue tie experts.

Good luck!

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Old 09-29-2009, 12:03 AM
 
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I think that either lip/tongue tie would result in easier latch the older the baby was (as the tongue stretched out, for instance). I'm really curious as to why things worsened post-thrush. Is there a local LLL near you where you could go and demonstrate your dd's latch and popping on and off?
The lip doesn't look too tight to me at all, but jmo.
It definitely doesn't look like a tongue tie to me. My bff's kids both are tongue tied and they have heart shaped tongues when they stick them out (because the center part can't push out as far as the edges, if that makes sense).

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Old 09-29-2009, 05:42 AM
 
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It deff doesn't look like tongue tie to me.

Mummy me : > Thats Ann! and my beautiful SONS Duncanand Hamish 19/09/05 & 22/04/10!
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks so much to everyone that responded, I took her to our GP today to have her look at her latch, and she said her lip and tongue are just fine. She thinks the only thing that is causing a problem with the latch is my oversupply and fast letdown - so DD is backing off because the flow is too fast for her. So then she's not latched properly, and sucking in air.

I'm going to try pumping a bit before each nursing session and see if that helps. I'm glad I was wrong on my thought of the tongue/lip tie!

erin

Mama to DS 02/15/06, and DD born 08/31/09!
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:48 PM
 
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I can't offer an opinion on your pics as I can't see them well, and the fact you had a good latch before makes things more confusing, but I wanted to say a couple things..

-a posterior tongue tie does NOT cause a heart shaped tongue...that's caused by a more anterior tie. the posterior tie holds the tongue down in the back, so doesn't cause the heart shape.

-some babies can extend the tongue past the gums even with a posterior tongue tie....my DD was one of them; however they have difficulty maintaining that extension. They can't lift their tongues up to the roof of their mouths.

-very few people know how to dx posterior tongue tie...I had SEVERAL people look at my DD's tongue and they all told me things were fine (LC, midwives, feeding specialist, ped) but everything she was doing was consistent w/ post tt and I finally found an LC who knew about it. I took DD up to see Dr. Coryllos who confirmed it as a type 4 posterior tt and we had it corrected.

Because we had such a hard time getting a dx, my DD was 9.5 weeks before it was corrected and it took until she was about 16 weeks for her latch to correct, and we had a lot of trouble and I had tons of pain in the meantime. BUT we had latch problems from the very 1st day.

Good luck figuring things out!

Kelly, wife to DH, mom to Caden Reese (10-2-06), Tessa Brynn (12-26-08 ), and Maddox Quinn (7-16-11). Fur-mama to Finnegan, Ripley, Raisin (my little kitty amputee) and Kimchi. 748/2011, 2028/2012-I did it!! 2023/2013-Again!!! 404/2014
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:44 PM
 
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I have similar issues to yours and this link was just recommended to me:

http://www.llli.org/FAQ/oversupply.html


I wouldn't recommend pumping before nursing - block feeding is a better bet.

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07/10/09
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:52 AM
 
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nak...i second, third, and fourth block feeding. it worked wonders w/dd2. i wish i had done it w/dd1. i have oversupply and fast letdown. also, when your milk lets down, you can pop her off for a few seconds and spray your milk into a towel then latch her back on. dd2 did this herself sometimes, much to my embarrassment...nothing like spraying milk from your breast in public!
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Old 10-02-2009, 11:11 PM
 
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Here are some publications from the Coryllos/Watson Genna team.
They contain pictures of tongue-tie that are less than obvious to the untrained eye. Some of them, in fact, can only be felt. They also include info on diagnosis and simple treatment.
Good luck to all!

http://www.aap.org/breastfeeding/fil...Newsletter.pdf
or
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z9X...sult&resnum=10

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Old 10-03-2009, 04:26 PM
 
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Hi! Tongue ties stink!!!!!!!! We got ds1 and ds2's clipped. I emailed this lady who is an expert in New York and I attached pictures. She looked at them and emailed me back very quickly to let me know what she thought. We live in IL so I had to find someone else to do it, but they have a very wonderful practice that does tongue tie clipping. I suggest emailing her with your pics.

Good luck!

[email protected]

Jessica, wife to Mark, homeschooling mama to Micah (2006), Noah (2009), Owen (2012) and another on the way this August (20014)
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curlyfry7 View Post
I can't offer an opinion on your pics as I can't see them well, and the fact you had a good latch before makes things more confusing, but I wanted to say a couple things..

-a posterior tongue tie does NOT cause a heart shaped tongue...that's caused by a more anterior tie. the posterior tie holds the tongue down in the back, so doesn't cause the heart shape.

-some babies can extend the tongue past the gums even with a posterior tongue tie....my DD was one of them; however they have difficulty maintaining that extension. They can't lift their tongues up to the roof of their mouths.

-very few people know how to dx posterior tongue tie...I had SEVERAL people look at my DD's tongue and they all told me things were fine (LC, midwives, feeding specialist, ped) but everything she was doing was consistent w/ post tt and I finally found an LC who knew about it. I took DD up to see Dr. Coryllos who confirmed it as a type 4 posterior tt and we had it corrected.

Because we had such a hard time getting a dx, my DD was 9.5 weeks before it was corrected and it took until she was about 16 weeks for her latch to correct, and we had a lot of trouble and I had tons of pain in the meantime. BUT we had latch problems from the very 1st day.

Good luck figuring things out!


my son had this. ped noticed a 'short tongue', LC suspected a 'posterior tongue tie' and sho nuff, ENT (one of two in atlanta who are familiar with it) - said he had it. we had him clipped around 1wk old.

also winnie - i found this post of yours by doing a search on 'lip can't flange' - as my son always has a blister on his upper lip and cannot flange it. i try to pull it out and can't - and his lip frenum looks a lot look your pics. i figure that is what is causing my still painful nipples at 7wks here (they burn - and are pink just on the tips - he has a shallow latch, and does exactly the same...slurps me in and breaks suction during my let downs). ive had to block feed - keep him more upright - and spray of in a towel - which seems to really help.

this post was awhile ago, have things gotten better?

32 - son born 9/21/09
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:57 PM
 
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As for the lip... DD's lip was like that at birth too. I worried she'd have to have it clipped eventually. But now that her top teeth have come in, it seems to have moved up and is actually correcting itself. You may see similar results...

Mallory. Happily married to Joe since 6/25/05. Loving my adventure with my girls, Owyn Samantha, born 3/1/09. dust.gif and Greta June, born 11/2/11  babygirl.gif

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