Do babies really 'need' rice cereal when they start solids? - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 27 Old 11-10-2010, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
ToadJode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Coral Springs, FL
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

When I eventually start my twins on solids instead of just formula, do they really NEED rice cereal at all? I mean, can I just give them vegetables and fruits (avocado, peach, sweet potato, banana, etc...)?

 

For some reason, it seems almost ludicrous to me to give them white carbs when I could just keep them on some formula and some fruits/veggies.

 

Any research done on this topic??


Lay down in our mother's arms for here we can rest safely
ToadJode is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 of 27 Old 11-10-2010, 01:07 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Absolutely not! Rice cereal especially is nutritionally useless. In fact, there is a pretty big movement called BLW (baby led weaning), which is the concept that you can skip cereals and purees altogether and go for whole foods (sometimes, like with carrots for example, cooked to softness for safety).

 

The first place to look would be to get the "bible" for BLW:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Baby-Led-Weaning-Essential-Introducing-Foods/dp/161519021X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1289419172&sr=8-1

 

Here are some other links that might be helpful:

http://www.babyledweaning.com/

http://baby-led.rhgdsrv.co.uk/pdf/blwleaflet.pdf

http://www.wholesomebabyfood.com/babyledweaning.htm

http://babyledweaning.blogware.com/blog/GettingStartedFingerFoodBasics/FingerFoodBasicsMonth1

 

There are some distinct signs of readiness that you can look for in your babies to see if they are ready to start on solids. For one, over 6 months is pretty important for digestive purposes. As well, the baby should be sitting independently, not have the infant tongue thrust anymore, and be able to self-feed. Personally I waited until my daughter was able to pick stuff up with the pincer grasp, as she stopped missing her mouth when she mastered that. wink1.gif


bedsharing, knitting, toddler-nursing, nerdy, babywearing mama!

familybed1.gif  knit.gif toddler.gif  geek.gif  momsling.GIF

Knitting Mama is offline  
#3 of 27 Old 11-10-2010, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
ToadJode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Coral Springs, FL
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

So THAT'S what baby led weaning is!! I thought it was the baby weaning itself off breast milk and ONTO purees and other mushy stuff.

 

Okay, I feel much better in knowing this!!!!! Thank you!


Lay down in our mother's arms for here we can rest safely
ToadJode is offline  
#4 of 27 Old 11-10-2010, 01:38 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Sure! There are a lot of us here in LWAB that practice BLW; I am sure others can share their experiences too!

 

I will tell you this-- my Cecilia is not a big eater. We've been at it for about a month now, and she eats around 1 piece of food (e.g. one cube of butternut squash, etc) per sitting. But that doesn't bother me at all, because she still nurses all the time and gets her nutrition that way. I figure she'll start eating more when she's good and ready. ;-)


bedsharing, knitting, toddler-nursing, nerdy, babywearing mama!

familybed1.gif  knit.gif toddler.gif  geek.gif  momsling.GIF

Knitting Mama is offline  
#5 of 27 Old 11-10-2010, 01:46 PM
 
AFWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

We did BLW with DS. Of course, this meant lots of "advice" from relatives regarding solids.

 

Examples:

 

"He's grabbing my fork. He must be hungry!" *I hand DS a fork and he bangs away without caring about food* 

 

"If you ever want to get any sleep you'll start cereal ASAP" (at 8 weeks)

 

 

DS didn't start "eating" until he was 9 months. We bought one of those mesh feeder things and would put banana in it prior to that. It would squish out of the holes and he enjoyed it...but I think it was just because it was fun. (We used it to keep him busy while WE ate) We would try once a month or so to offer him foods. Sometimes he would gum something (like a wedge of ham at Thanksgiving when he was 7 months) but he mostly just didn't care until 9 months or so.

 

Hope that helps smile.gif


Kas (24), Helpmeet to Stefan (25), Mom to Franklin Gaudelio 4/15/09, Jonathan Boswell 1/2/11
AFWife is offline  
#6 of 27 Old 11-10-2010, 05:35 PM
 
LilyRN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

No way! We skipped the rice cereal completely... started with mashed banana, then moved onto avocado, natural applesauce, potato, pear sauce, etc. Over the past week or so, DS has been unhappy with the consistency of purees, but doesn't seem quite ready to handle table food, so I've been adding organic brown rice cereal to his purees, but I would never give him straight rice cereal. That stuff is disgusting.


Rachel....

Wife to DH...

SAHM to C (2.5 years)

LilyRN is offline  
#7 of 27 Old 11-11-2010, 10:31 AM
ck1
 
ck1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I agree.. NO WAY!  We did Wholegrain Oatmeal over Rice Cereal.  I mixed bananas and steamed apples with it,  And because we just were crazy at the time, I made it extra chunky and just plopped it on his tray and let him go to town using his hands (he refused to let us feed him until he was 9 months old).  You should see the pictures --- what a mess!!!!!  But he's smiling in all of them, and of course he's wearing one of those full coverage plastic bibs (still didn't help). 

 

DS is 16 months old and has never had rice cereal smile.gif

ck1 is offline  
#8 of 27 Old 11-11-2010, 11:45 AM
 
Dena's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: In a state of confusion
Posts: 3,285
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I've never done rice cereal either.  We do buy the Earth's Best multigrain baby cereal, because it works nicely to thicken up certain things, like yogurt, that are a challenge for self-feeding at first.  smile.gif


Wife to Thomas, WAH mama to Sofia Rose 8/04, Ellen Marie 10/07, her twin sister Amalie Joy lost 7/07 , and Maya Grace and Hannah Miriam 4/10
Dena is offline  
#9 of 27 Old 11-11-2010, 11:53 AM
 
JudiAU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Where creepy facebook-featured threads can't find me
Posts: 3,608
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

Nope. No reason. Just easy to digest for people who are starting their babies on solids way-to-early anyway.

JudiAU is online now  
#10 of 27 Old 11-11-2010, 04:18 PM
 
BethHH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I live in Germany and the midwives and docs here (we have pp insurance-covered midwife care here) are now advising that some babies are ready to start solids at 4 months.  There are studies that have shown that introducing some foods early actually reduces allergies.  It depends on the baby, though.  My daughter definitely showed an interest at 4 months and could sit upright for swallowing.  She really enjoyed her first mealtime.

 

The docs and midwives never once mentioned rice cereal to us.  We were told to start with pastinak thinned with breastmilk or formula when we thought she was ready.  After that, we were advised to try carrots, pumpkin, and potatoes (sweet and regular), then move on to other veggies and fruits.  I do use rice cereal on occasion to thin the taste of strong fruits like kiwi (still a bit too sour for her, but with rice cereal she loves it) and started with that because it is gluten free.  Now that she's OK with the rice cereal that is easier to digest, I generally go for spelt cereal instead. (She's 5.5 months now.)

 

As we felt our daughter was ready for solids kind of early-ish, we've gone for a modified baby-led weaning.  I want her to eat real food, but she's too little for chunks.  I carry a fine cheese grater with me and use that to prepare her food.  Apples and pears are particularly good - I can make a fine "spaghetti" from them that she easily slurps, but it's definitely not a puree (and not cooked - I don't want to cook the vitamins out if I don't have to).  I give it to her on a spoon, but as she grows I'll use larger graters and let her feed herself.

 

As for the sleeping, Lene slept longer the first night she had rice cereal, but after that it was business as usual.  I don't have the feeling that it helped - she still is up every 3 hours to eat.

BethHH is offline  
#11 of 27 Old 11-11-2010, 04:27 PM
 
AFWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by BethHH View Post

 

The docs and midwives never once mentioned rice cereal to us.



I will say that we mentioned solids at DS's 8 week appt (because MIL kept saying we needed to start him on rice cereal so I asked so I could say, "The doctor said..." instead of just "No") She said 4 months was the earliest and to start with veggies. *shrugs* MIL was SHOCKED that she didn't say rice cereal.


Kas (24), Helpmeet to Stefan (25), Mom to Franklin Gaudelio 4/15/09, Jonathan Boswell 1/2/11
AFWife is offline  
#12 of 27 Old 11-11-2010, 08:45 PM
 
momto4plus4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

The only reason that my pediatrician recommends the rice, oat or mixed grain cereal is for the iron. I don't do formula but I'm assuming maybe it has added iron? I actually do have to be cautious about iron levels in my kids as my oldest son was severely anemic by 6 months. Otherwise, nope. Just go for good ole food!


Sara: Separated Mom to , DD (9), , DS (5), DD (3), , & 4/5/10 + 2 & 1
momto4plus4 is offline  
#13 of 27 Old 11-12-2010, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
ToadJode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Coral Springs, FL
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


This is EXACTLY what I did!!

 

My Mom wanted me to start them on rice cereal at 2 weeks so they would sleep through the night, and I kept telling her that 2 week old babies are not supposed to sleep through the night.

 

Finally, I asked the doctor and she said absolutely NOT. That settled that argument!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFWife View Post





I will say that we mentioned solids at DS's 8 week appt (because MIL kept saying we needed to start him on rice cereal so I asked so I could say, "The doctor said..." instead of just "No") She said 4 months was the earliest and to start with veggies. *shrugs* MIL was SHOCKED that she didn't say rice cereal.




Lay down in our mother's arms for here we can rest safely
ToadJode is offline  
#14 of 27 Old 11-12-2010, 10:41 AM
 
Kristine233's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Way Northern MN
Posts: 3,973
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

No need at all. With my youngest we skipped baby food all together and at a year she decided she was ready for table foods and went from full time breastfeeding to table foods. We had one month of overlap and then she was off and running with only table foods and that's what she wanted so we went with it. It was like she went from baby to toddler overnight, lol. (gotta say, she was my healthiest of all 3 and has the healthiest eating habits as well as my only child without food sensitivities)


Mom to Joscelyne 14, Andrew 12, and Mackenzie 10 and wife to Nate.
Kristine233 is offline  
#15 of 27 Old 11-14-2010, 02:47 PM
 
Jaimee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Seattle, Tucson, Austin, Baltimore. Now: Urbana, IL
Posts: 7,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Absolutely not!  Rice cereal is a ridiculous first food- nutritionally void and not particularly easy to digest.  Great first foods are squash, sweet potato and pear.  Give this informative article on BLW a read to learn more about the history of food introduction and why you might want to ditch the purees! 


Mama to Avalon 1/07 waterbirth.jpg, Austin 1/10 in between uc.jpgand Avery 12/11  h20homebirth.gif
fambedsingle1.gif   femalesling.GIF   winner.jpg   cd.gif     ecbaby2.gif  novaxnocirc.gif   goorganic.jpg  

Jaimee is offline  
#16 of 27 Old 11-15-2010, 11:04 AM
 
thebigfam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 578
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

My DD is 3.5 and she never once had a puree or rice cereal.  at around 6 months she started self feeding we don't have a history of food allergies so she ate a form of what we were eating.  I just put it on her tray and she would do with it what she wanted to.  I cut it up small so she wouldn't choke on it if she did accedently swallow it but that never happened.  She is now a very active 3.5 year old that feeds herself and is a good eater.

 

Big Momma

thebigfam is offline  
#17 of 27 Old 11-15-2010, 06:10 PM
 
fullofhope08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: rural Canada
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

We're about to start introducing solids at 6 months - this is so helpful! DS has been so curious about food - watching us eat or sucking on some foods like raw carrots. We plan to do some BLW but also some purees of fruits/veggies.

So my question around cereals is whether you can give them simply cooked grains (oatmeal or some other grain cooked in the same fashion. I was thinking of amaranth or millet for the high iron content) at the age of 6 months. Everywhere I read suggests grinding the grains prior to cooking to the consistency of these rice cereals. It doesn't say anywhere at what age you don't have to grind them anymore. My instincts make me question if grinding is even necessary. anyone have experience with this??

Thanks! 


married to DH, mother to two amazing little boys born May 18/2010 and May 20/2013!

Infertility has been part of this journey - no more littles for us, but so grateful we have two happy healthy boys and we can now begin to heal from that experience

fullofhope08 is offline  
#18 of 27 Old 11-15-2010, 08:02 PM
tzs
 
tzs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,617
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by fullofhope08 View Post

We're about to start introducing solids at 6 months - this is so helpful! DS has been so curious about food - watching us eat or sucking on some foods like raw carrots. We plan to do some BLW but also some purees of fruits/veggies.

So my question around cereals is whether you can give them simply cooked grains (oatmeal or some other grain cooked in the same fashion. I was thinking of amaranth or millet for the high iron content) at the age of 6 months. Everywhere I read suggests grinding the grains prior to cooking to the consistency of these rice cereals. It doesn't say anywhere at what age you don't have to grind them anymore. My instincts make me question if grinding is even necessary. anyone have experience with this??

Thanks! 



we did blw with some purees when it was more convenient. i also skipped the cereals and opted to try for regular oatmeal instead. not much luck with that at 6 months. i think it was a consistancy thing at that point and my babe who only really gagged on "real" food once was gagging like crazy on the oatmeal. same thing with rice. i think it might just be too easy for the whole grains to get caught in the throat. anyway, she HATED it. so we just held off on regular oatmeal but i could see that grinding it would help....but then you might as well just buy like, the earth's best oatmeal cereal, no? i also wanted to boost the iron so i would just add the earth's best stuff to any runnier foods (soup, yogurt...) to thicken it a bit which made it easier for her to eat and then we got the bonus iron.


Reluctant 'Sconie, chassid and mama to sweet toughie Ada Bluma 9/9/09 and loving pittie-mix ("Judge the deed, not the breed!")
tzs is offline  
#19 of 27 Old 11-15-2010, 08:41 PM
 
mrsberman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

We gave DD rice cereal at two months, but I only made two teaspoons and she would only have one or two bites. DD had reflux issues and I brought up the idea of rice as an alternative to increasing the dose on her medicine (She would nurse every 90 minutes for 10 minutes and still spit half of it up). Her pedi liked the idea, but made sure I knew she was NOT ready to have solids. Rice once a day helped get her off medicine and keep her food down. DD didn't have her first solid food until she was four months when she stole a french fry off DH's plate.


married 11/06, DD May 2009, DS  April 2011successful, natural 9lbs 6ozvbac.gif

mrsberman is offline  
#20 of 27 Old 11-16-2010, 12:04 PM
 
mamabearsoblessed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: nursing about the foothills
Posts: 3,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristine233 View Post

No need at all. With my youngest we skipped baby food all together and at a year she decided she was ready for table foods and went from full time breastfeeding to table foods. We had one month of overlap and then she was off and running with only table foods and that's what she wanted so we went with it. It was like she went from baby to toddler overnight, lol. (gotta say, she was my healthiest of all 3 and has the healthiest eating habits as well as my only child without food sensitivities)



This is what we've done with all 4. They pretty much eat what we eat, when they're ready to eat it.


natural birthin', baby catchin', cloth addicted, intactalactavist mama of 12/00, 6/03, 10/07, 8/10 & our angelcubs three
mamabearsoblessed is offline  
#21 of 27 Old 11-16-2010, 12:36 PM
 
waiting2bemommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: buried under laundry
Posts: 1,818
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

neither of my kids did the rice/baby cereal thing. I think I tried with ds a few times but I he hated it. My mom claims he would take it from her though, I don't know.

 

I don't do jar food....I have a food grinder that grinds the food and then I just add some gravy/sauce/water from the pot or just tap water to make it the right consistency. You can put anything in there; it's a hand grinder but I have done pork chops in it! Also really finely grated cheese, mashed banana, avocado, mango and potatoes are some favorite fall back foods. Today 6 month old dd had regular oatmeal & some gerber puffs for breakfast and for lunch she had leftover parmesan chicken (I grated it using a cheese grater into tiny shavings that she could self-feed), banana slices and grated monterey jack cheese.

 

It is totally pontless to give that baby cereal. The only advantage that I know of is the iron in it, and lots of foods have iron in them...beets for example, spinach and lots of others. I'd rather my baby get her iron from an actual FOOD rather than the processed, "enriched" cereal crap.

 

We do get baby food and cereal from WIC, and I take it to the consignment store here and trade it in forstore credit to get things I need (like my food grinder to make her "baby food"!)


Very blessed mama to one bouncin' boy bouncy.gif (12/07) one angel3.gif who didn't get to stay (6/09), one potty learning, mess making divaenergy.gif(4/10), and one cheerful milk monster. aabfwoman.gif (12/11) Happy partner to the love of my lifedp_malesling.GIF.  

waiting2bemommy is offline  
#22 of 27 Old 11-16-2010, 12:40 PM
 
waiting2bemommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: buried under laundry
Posts: 1,818
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)



Hey, I feel better now...I thought I was the only person who does that! lol dd prefers to feed herself and everyone thinks i'm insane for letting ehr do it with oatmeal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ck1 View Post

I agree.. NO WAY!  We did Wholegrain Oatmeal over Rice Cereal.  I mixed bananas and steamed apples with it,  And because we just were crazy at the time, I made it extra chunky and just plopped it on his tray and let him go to town using his hands (he refused to let us feed him until he was 9 months old).  You should see the pictures --- what a mess!!!!!  But he's smiling in all of them, and of course he's wearing one of those full coverage plastic bibs (still didn't help). 

 

DS is 16 months old and has never had rice cereal smile.gif




Very blessed mama to one bouncin' boy bouncy.gif (12/07) one angel3.gif who didn't get to stay (6/09), one potty learning, mess making divaenergy.gif(4/10), and one cheerful milk monster. aabfwoman.gif (12/11) Happy partner to the love of my lifedp_malesling.GIF.  

waiting2bemommy is offline  
#23 of 27 Old 11-16-2010, 12:57 PM
 
journeymom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Having a Gilly Water with McGonagall
Posts: 7,417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)

Like others said, our doc recommended rice cereal for the iron. I wondered, is it necessary to push iron if your child isn't anaemic? On the other hand, just because I think it's yucky doesn't mean the baby will.  And I just wouldn't be surprised if a six month old doesn't take to spinach very quickly. 

 

I got a kick out of giving my babies all kinds of foods, including rice cereal.

 


Someone moved my effing cheese.
journeymom is offline  
#24 of 27 Old 11-16-2010, 01:49 PM
 
GoBecGo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

thanks to all the link posters - i've had a hard enough time convincing MIL it's "safe" to wait until 6 months before feeding dd2 solids, i've been wondering, given the "i can't WAIT to feed her" comments, how to break the news about BLW to her.  These links came at the perfect time!  I'm printing the very concise leaflet for her!  simple :)

GoBecGo is offline  
#25 of 27 Old 11-16-2010, 01:59 PM
 
neverdoingitagain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: mountain/cow country in Canada
Posts: 2,226
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I did BLW with my second child. Her first solid food was ground up buffalo meat. After that she got a taste of everything. Never had a problem. 

Meat is a much more viable source of iron than grains, by the way. Something to consider.


waiting on the power of the three wolf moon. 
neverdoingitagain is offline  
#26 of 27 Old 11-16-2010, 03:28 PM
 
sageowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 653
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

In my experience, no.  I bought some, but naturally the babe was NOT interested (major yuck-face), so we quickly moved on to pears and bananas.  For the longest time I had the box sitting around, then realized it would be a great thing for thickening other foods (like my homemade yogurt).  So now it gets used for that.  Since I need a gluten-free thickener, that works well for me.

 

But as a first food?  No way.

sageowl is offline  
#27 of 27 Old 11-17-2010, 09:13 AM
 
CBEmomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: MN/IA
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

My Pediatrician told us to skip rice cereal with #1, and we plan to do the same with #2.


~Attatchment and Natural Parent from instincts not from books to my 2 boys~ Childbirth Educator & Placental Encapsulation Professional
homeschool.gif familybed2.gif homebirth.jpgribbonpb.gif
CBEmomma is offline  
Reply

User Tag List



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off