How do you give anti-CIO advice??? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 53 Old 04-09-2011, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So a friend of mine on FB was asking for advice for her DS (9 mo?) who has started waking each morning at 4:30. All I could say was "It's a phase I'm sure! Good luck until it passes!" Pretty feeble advice eyesroll.gif but a lot of the time, that's my only consolation when it comes to my DS. Everyone else was for CIO though. These words particularly bothered me: "I let mine cry it out. That's the only way they'll learn that mommy isn't going to come get me anymore so might as well stop waking up. That's how I broke both of mine."

 

Oh my. I never want to hear my baby's name and broke in the same sentence. EVER.

 

My kiddo is the kind that takes a little crying or he won't sleep. Oddly. But after his 10-30 seconds of crying in my arms, he's ready to nurse and slumber. I feel bad for that sometimes but otherwise he won't conk out. But they were talking about 1 hour+ of crying. Breaks my heart:(

 

How do you respond to something like this? I don'tdon'tdon't want to be one of those "this is how I do it so this is how you should do it" moms. How do you give advice? How do YOU let other moms and dads know the benefits of not CIO without being a know it all?

 

Another issue- Caden is my only kid and I realize he's got it made with all my attention. Next babe? Not so much I'm sure! An older friend of ours on FB said this- "Being an "older" mommy it was really hard to set limits. One of my good friends said, "Kids will suck you dry." Then I realized that yes, they will. I would go in one time to be sure all was well....no lights on, no picking her up." 

 

Am I spoiling my son? Rrrrg, I think not but am always second guessing myself after reading things like that. And after having a short/no nap/late bedtime day like todaywinky.gif He DID suck me dry today, sanity and milk :)

 

Thoughts?


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#2 of 53 Old 04-09-2011, 08:44 PM
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The couple of times it's come up I mention the neurological damage stress hormones do. Here's a link to an article http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/linda_folden_palmer2.html . I've also mentioned that my 5 year DD now sleeps on her own for 10 hours a night with no issues at all, not even nightmares, and slept a good solid 9 hours in a row after all her teeth came in at 2.5. 

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#3 of 53 Old 04-09-2011, 08:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sere234 View Post


How do you respond to something like this? I don'tdon'tdon't want to be one of those "this is how I do it so this is how you should do it" moms. How do you give advice? How do YOU let other moms and dads know the benefits of not CIO without being a know it all?


I don't think telling someone how you handled the same problem has to come across as being a know it all.  I responded to one of my FB friends who had complained of the same sleep problem we had just overcome by saying something like, "We had this same problem, I don't think CIO is healthy (she was also getting lots of CIO advice), so we didn't do that.  What worked best for us was X, Y, and Z non CIO sleep advice.  I really liked X non CIO sleep book, it has lots of other suggestions for kids of all ages and various problems. " 

 

Surprisingly, no one out of her CIO friends jumped on me, and she liked my comment.  I think by saying this is what worked for us acknowledges that it may not be what works for her, but giving her a place to find other non CIO advice could let her know that there are other options. 

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#4 of 53 Old 04-09-2011, 08:56 PM
 
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I try to gently remind moms that babies do not cognitively or emotionally understand why you are allowing them to cry. They cry for communication... so they want or need something when they cry! When you DON'T come, they will only get more upset. And then yes, they will eventually fall asleep, from mere exhaustion. I typically say something like "CIO is very controversial, since babies don't understand this method their parents use. Talking to your pediatrician and doing some research before choosing any approach can be very helpful!" -  Then I don't feel like I'm saying.. "ARE YOU CRAZY?" but instead trying to gently point them in the right direction and then just pray.

 

 

Your son is a baby. A wee baby! No such thing as spoiling him Mama :) You are ensuring he knows this is a secure place and that he can trust you for all he needs! That's healthy attachment, not spoiling thumb.gif But I know how you feel! 2.5 year old DS has a cold so is not sleeping well & super cranky, and 10 week old DD is nursing like around the clock right now! Definitely seems like her new growth spurt. I'm feeling a little frazzled myself! 

 

 

Also - you'd be amazed at just how much attention you can give TWO kids. I cuddle, hold, wear, nurse, etc, DD pretty much ALL the time without feeling like DS is ever left out. Even though DS isn't nursing (I didn't know anything about EBF, AP, or pretty much anything else when he was a baby), he stays close with us while I nurse DD & we all nap together (one on each side). I'm not sure how those logistics would work out with 3 (hmm.. time will tell?)... but you can do it with two!


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#5 of 53 Old 04-09-2011, 09:01 PM
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I try not to give advice unless asked. In this case, your friend asked. So I'd just tell her what you do think she would do, without addressing the CIO issue, which will just cause a flame war.
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#6 of 53 Old 04-09-2011, 11:49 PM
 
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I find it depressing that people don't hesitate to suggest "breaking" their children, but we often wonder if we should push our attachment parenting beliefs on people. :( Myself, I don't like to wade into these arguments either.

 

I think one of the best books around is The Wonder Weeks. It's based on over 30 years of research and shows which periods babies will be fussy and their sleep disrupted. 9 months is one of the hardest sleep regressions there is. It's totally normal. I joined The Wonder Weeks Facebook page to see what advice the researchers and authors of the book were giving. Nothing more than "give them love and security and wait it out."

 

I try to bring up sleep regressions and wonder weeks so at least it helps them understand that their child is behaving normally and may not be in any need of "training."

 

I also try to suggest non-CIO methods ("Positive Routines with Faded Bedtime" and "Extinction with Parental Presence" -- you never leave them alone) that have been clinically proven to work JUST AS WELL. Link here: http://www.parentingscience.com/Ferber-method.html

 

I think a lot of parents are uneasy about CIO and don't want to do it, but then 10 of their friends tell them they "have to" to do it or their children will be messed up forever. Then they try to do it, but do it half-heartedly, and the whole thing turns into a confused mess.

 

Maybe they just need a little reassurance. 1. That their children are normal. 2. That there are other methods. 3. That there are parents who use other methods. You don't have to start arguing with the other parents. Just ignore them and the CIO stuff. I find if you criticize CIO, it just sets up their back. I just try to offer alternatives.

 

-----------------------------------------

 

I found this somewhere. :)

 

Sleep Training – A Baby’s View


OK, here’s my situation. My Mommy has had me for almost 7 months. The first few months were great–I cried, she picked me up and fed me, anytime, day or night. Then something happened. Over the last few weeks, she has been trying to STTN (sleep thru the night). At first, I thought it was just a phase, but it is only getting worse. I’ve talked to other babies, and it seems like it’s pretty common after Mommies have had us for around 6 months. Here’s the thing: these Mommies don’t really need to sleep. It’s just a habit. Many of them have had some 30 years to sleep–they just don’t need it anymore. So I am implementing a plan. I call it the Crybaby Shuffle.

 

It goes like this:

 

Night 1–cry every 3 hours until you get fed. I know, it’s hard. It’s hard to see your Mommy upset over your crying. Just keep reminding yourself, it’s for her own good.

 

Night 2–cry every 2 hours until you get fed.

 

Night 3–every hour.

 

Most Mommies will start to respond more quickly after about 3 nights.

 

Some Mommies are more alert, and may resist the change longer. These Mommies may stand in your doorway for hours, shhhh-ing. Don’t give in. I cannot stress this enough:

 

CONSISTENCY IS KEY!! If you let her STTN (sleep through the night), just once, she will expect it every night. I KNOW IT’S HARD! But she really does not need the sleep, she is just resisting the change. If you have an especially alert Mommy, you can stop crying for about 10 minutes, just long enough for her to go back to bed and start to fall asleep. Then cry again. It WILL eventually work. My Mommy once stayed awake for 10 hours straight, so I know she can do it.

 

Last night, I cried every hour. You just have to decide to stick to it and just go for it. BE CONSISTENT! I cried for any reason I could come up with. My sleep sack tickled my foot. I felt a wrinkle under the sheet. My mobile made a shadow on the wall. I burped, and it tasted like pears. I hadn’t eaten pears since lunch, what’s up with that? The cat said “meow”. I should know. My Mommy reminds me of this about 20 times a day. LOL. Once I cried just because I liked how it sounded when it echoed on the monitor in the other room. Too hot, too cold, just right–doesn’t matter! Keep crying!! It took awhile, but it worked. She fed me at 4am. Tomorrow night, my goal is 3:30am. You need to slowly shorten the interval between feedings in order to reset your Mommies’ internal clocks.

 

P.S. Don’t let those rubber things fool you, no matter how long you suck on them, no milk will come out. Trust me.


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#7 of 53 Old 04-10-2011, 12:59 AM
 
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  I just had this happen to me. Publicly I told her to trust her instincts and keep doing what she was doing. (no need to make her facebook page a battleground) Privately, I sent her a message letting her know that I didn't want to offend her CIO friends because people have strong views on the subject and I didn't want to step on her toes, but that I wanted to let her know that there were other ways of parenting (attachment) and that if she did decide to sleep train, there were gentler methods. I pointed her in the direction of a few resources (dr. sears, mothering.com) and let her know that she wasn't alone, that there were a whole slew of mamas "doing things the hard way" (ie: responding to their babies needs. which really turns out to be the easy way in so many respects) It's hard when you live in an environment where raising a baby in a traditional/naturalistic way is considered revolutionary! And so isolating when all the mainstreamers you talk to are telling you how they can just toss their babies in a crib and they sleep 8+ hours, when meanwhile you're holding and nursing, and rocking, and exhausted.  I've been lucky being able to raise my son in an area where I am surrounded by tons of like minded mothers (Being "crazy" in California is more acceptable!) 

I told her about our experience of cosleeping and smoothly transitioning to a bed when the time was right with no tears. 

 And I made sure to tell her at the end of the day, that she should to do what works for her family, because I didn't want her to feel like I was pushing an agenda on her and to sort of give her permission not to feel guilty about whatever she chose to do. 

I was really nervous about how she would take it, but it turned out she really appreciated it and I was so glad I wrote it. 

 

 

Like a pp said: your friend asked for help in a public forum; offer her the insight of your experience. You may really help her even if you can only offer a bit of btdt condolence. 

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#8 of 53 Old 04-10-2011, 06:38 AM
 
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Thanks for posting that Ginger Bean - I love it!

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#9 of 53 Old 04-10-2011, 03:00 PM
 
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I usually say something along the lines of "if it feels wrong to you than it probably is". VERY few people actually feel ok with cio if they are at all honest with themselves.


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#10 of 53 Old 04-11-2011, 08:25 AM
 
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That's hysterical GingerBean, thanks!

 

Great Advice everyone! I just agree. 


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#11 of 53 Old 04-11-2011, 01:07 PM
 
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I think we should voice our opinions! If ten moms advocate CIO, someone should step up and advocate some other option. I would matter of fact-ly tell them all why CIO is a bad idea and give them links to read the research themselves if they don't believe it. I really don't care if people think I am acting like a know it all or something. I feel bad for babies like that. My mom said she did it to me to get me to sleep through the night. But her style of parenting is detached like that. I could never just let my baby cry like that. I think it is bad for babies and bad for moms, because they become desensitized to their babies. It isn't right and the research supports that assertion.

But you all already know this. ;)

 

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#12 of 53 Old 04-11-2011, 04:25 PM
 
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I agree that we should voice it. I tried this on fb before I had a baby, and woo boy!, did I get attacked!!!! I guess I couldn't really say I wouldn't do it until I've been in that place and I'd change my tune, according to all the CIO moms. eyesroll.gif But NOW I can speak about it freely and I do. I've also said, "There's a reason it feels wrong to you." and threw out the research. I've also linked this blog post from a baby's POV and suggest The No-Cry Sleep Solution. For me, I don't feel it's right just arguing about it. I try to steer in the direction of a solution that works.

 

 


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#13 of 53 Old 04-11-2011, 06:27 PM
 
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It really depends on who is posting, how well I know them and their inclinations. My sister in law, whom I knew was planning to CIO, and had discussed this with at length, as we have babies one day apart, I just ignored. No use causing trouble, I had said my piece. I posted something like, "I know it's hard, but trust me, they do sleep eventually! Best luck!". But I have a few other friends who were on the fence, and I did say something like "That's such a hard time! I've SO been there, exhausted and wrung out. We always chose to comfort our babies at night, and with time, everyone slept. I liked the No Cry Sleep Solution, if you're looking for a book to reference. Best luck!" With time, this has become like car seat pictures, I've learned to filter when my saying something will help, and when it won't.

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#14 of 53 Old 04-11-2011, 06:46 PM
 
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It depends on the friend if and what kind of advice I give.

9 months is hard phase, just read on the sleeping board, there are tons of moms being exhausted and not getting enough sleep.

 

I usually just say, that everyone has to find a solution that works for them and their family. I could not do CIO, it breaks my heart. My ds would never only cry for 2-3min like some babies do before falling asleep. Also, I don't want to break my kids spirit just to build it up later again, so he becomes selfconfident.

 

I have tried the NoCrySleepSolution and it backfired on me terribly. Plus, I didn't get her comment that it could take 60 (or was it 70?) days until the baby learns to sleep through the night. By the time 60days have passed my child has already gone through another phase.

 

We have found ways to stay sane and dealing with our frequently waking child (a good night at 17.5 months means waking only 4 times in 10hrs). It is what it is, it isn't easy, but there are tons of ways of getting enough rest without breaking a child's spirit.


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#15 of 53 Old 04-12-2011, 06:04 AM
 
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Wow I am not shy about telling the truth. I usually just post good articles about not letting your babe CIO for no reason at all. I also do this for AP and intact infants, but I am somewhat of an activist.

 

I would just say "It's completely normal! smile.gif All babies go through sleep regressions and developmental periods. I have never let my son CIO and never will b/c of the emotional, develpomental, and physical effects that can happen from it. http://www.whatmakesyoutick.org/ has a video describing and showing proof of the issues that may arise from CIO. I always respond to my sons cries b/c that's his sole mode of communication and I wouldn't want to be screaming in a room with no one responding to my needs. I respect him the same as I respect anyone."

 

IDK if that would cause a stir up, if you weren't comfortable displaying it you could message her. I wish everyone would just see the truth that is CIO and STOP the cycle.


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#16 of 53 Old 04-12-2011, 06:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belltree View Post

It depends on the friend if and what kind of advice I give.

9 months is hard phase, just read on the sleeping board, there are tons of moms being exhausted and not getting enough sleep.

 

I usually just say, that everyone has to find a solution that works for them and their family. I could not do CIO, it breaks my heart. My ds would never only cry for 2-3min like some babies do before falling asleep. Also, I don't want to break my kids spirit just to build it up later again, so he becomes selfconfident.

 

I have tried the NoCrySleepSolution and it backfired on me terribly. Plus, I didn't get her comment that it could take 60 (or was it 70?) days until the baby learns to sleep through the night. By the time 60days have passed my child has already gone through another phase.

 

We have found ways to stay sane and dealing with our frequently waking child (a good night at 17.5 months means waking only 4 times in 10hrs). It is what it is, it isn't easy, but there are tons of ways of getting enough rest without breaking a child's spirit.


Parents of those babies (like my last one--my other two would just get riled up if you left them to cry and scream for hours, my youngest would get riled up the more and more you tried to comfort her, or she would fall asleep in arms only to scream the moment I laid her down. Complete opposite of her siblings. I (accidentally) learned to just place her in her crib, she'd fuss for 2-3 minutes and be out like a light--I had to take care of a minor emergency involving my middle child and by the time I was done not 5 minutes later, she was asleep.  After that, I just do the bedtime routine and put her in her crib awake--bedtime moved from 10-11 pm after hours of struggling to 8 pm easy peasy.) are usually the ones who advocate CIO as working.  Had that not been my third child, I'd probably be saying the same thing. 

 

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#17 of 53 Old 04-12-2011, 11:33 AM
 
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If I asked, I definitely give my opinion.  And yeah, sometimes I make comments too, I just can't help myself.  I feel for those little babes who are forced to CIO when all they want is their mommy.  A friend on FB posted about how she was starting Baby Boot Camp - on her SEVEN week old!  I questioned her about why she was sleep training so early, but she didn't respond.  Now her babe is maybe 3-4 mths old, and she's bragging about him sleeping through the night, like 12 hours.  I'm sorry, but I don't care!  My baby is up every hour, sure.  But at 7 weeks old I don't think a baby should be forced to sleep through the night.

 

Fortunatley for me, I have not had anyone offer CIO for me as advice, even when I was complaining about my baby waking every hour last month, for a month.  They do however keep telling me to give him solids, so he'll sleep.


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#18 of 53 Old 04-12-2011, 02:50 PM
 
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Gingerbean, did you make that up? You're hilarious.

 

Kind of reminds me of the movie, baby talk.


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#19 of 53 Old 04-12-2011, 02:57 PM
 
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Greenlea, what, at 5 months? I had one aunt start asking me when I'll start solids from when dd was 3 months old. When I told her that it isn't recommended until 6 mo now, she told me that that's what she did with both of her kids and they turned out fine. Yes, my mom gave me watered down juice when I was a month old upon a doc's recommendation. Guess what! The same doc told me NOT to give her anything but mother's milk until 6 months, because that is the recommendation now. Why people feel obliged to force their parenting on others and defend themselves when the others refuse, is beyond me.


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#20 of 53 Old 04-12-2011, 04:09 PM
 
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sigh. I just went through it with my SIL. Her DS is about 6 months younger than my son. I used tor read her blog, until she posted a treatise on sleep training him at about 7 months of age. greensad.gif Complete with the preface that they didn't care what people would say (maybe they meant me, because before she was born we talked about CIO and how bad it was) but they had to do something, then the recount of him crying for 55 minutes the first time, then 45 minutes the second... and the final singing of praises to their amazingly sleeping baby in just a week. mecry.gif
I had to delete her blog after that. What hurt the most was that I couldn't really say anything without making her mad at me and yet there it is for everyone to read about the wonders of CIO, with nobody questioning that method. And she is a freaking neuroscientist, she should know better.
But alas. greensad.gif

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#21 of 53 Old 04-12-2011, 04:12 PM
 
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Hasya, it was very common to start solids as early as 8 weeks about 30-40years back.

Quote:
Why people feel obliged to force their parenting on others and defend themselves when the others refuse, is beyond me.
 


I sometimes think that we all want to do the "right" thing as parents. If a new generation chooses a different path, a lot of older people feel that what they did was wrong and ignorant and potentially harmful. I think it is quite understandable for some people to feel offended or highly critized. We all want to do what's best for our kids.

 


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#22 of 53 Old 04-12-2011, 09:42 PM
 
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I always talk about my first two babies.  My first one was scared.  Really, truly scared.  She had a really hard time with being alone, and loud sounds, and new experiences.  Leaving her alone was terrifying to her, and I would have been an absolute jerk to do that to her.

 

My second had bad belly pain.  I *could* have left him, but he would have been writhing in pain all alone.  And, it took us a while to figure out what was wrong with him...he looked okay from the outside...

 

I'm really, really thankful I didn't leave my technically sick babies alone to cry in fear and pain.  And it took them getting bigger and me learning more about them to be able to see what they needed then.  I'm so thankful I have no regrets on that.

 

 

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#23 of 53 Old 04-12-2011, 09:49 PM
 
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I find that when I give advice, it's always most helpful to offer concrete suggestions, rather than philosophical advice. For example, if someone is trying to help their child STTN, then I would focus on the concrete steps that helped my kids, (try swaddling in a really big blanket, not a tiny receiving blanket, make sure you start the day with an EARLY morning nap, consider a pacifier, don't keep them up in the hope that they will fall asleep through exhaustion, but instead make their bedtime very early, earlier then you think they can fall asleep.) Ususally, parents do not want a big dramatic debate or to feel attacked, but they need help on a specific thing, and just tossing out as many practical suggestions as possible may make it work for them to keep on trusting themselves and responding to their baby.

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#24 of 53 Old 04-13-2011, 02:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by hasya View Post

Gingerbean, did you make that up? You're hilarious.

 

Kind of reminds me of the movie, baby talk.


No, like I said, I found it somewhere. :)

 

I wish I knew where it was from.
 

 


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#25 of 53 Old 04-13-2011, 05:29 AM
 
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O my, Ginger Bean, I just laughed until I cried ("I burped, and it tasted like pears" lol.gif )!!

OT: That quote from that woman that was so proud she managed to "break" her kids is just.. wow greensad.gif
i would maybe say something like "letting my dd cry would just stress me out more so I didn't do CIO, and it turns out it was just a phase smile.gif an exhausting one, but it passed" just letting her know that it's ok to NOT do CIO because I agree with PP's saying that a lot of parents probably don't automatically want to do it (otherwise, why would she be asking for advice anyway, if she knew CIO was logically and definitely the answer). I guess you could suggest some things like white noise or something, just to show there are alternatives to CIO.

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#26 of 53 Old 04-13-2011, 11:27 AM
 
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I think the best way to approach it is to first state that you understand the difficulty and the desire to just make the crying stop, but that there's now a lot of evidence on how damaging CIO can be.  I believe someone else posted a link to one of the articles that talks about the neurological damage it does to infants.  I also know from my own research on theory of mind and perspective-taking that people can be swayed a lot by simply being told to try and take the perspective of someone else.  In this case, their infant.  If you ask them to think about what their baby is going through with growing pains, attachment issues, stomach changes, teething, etc. and how they would feel in that situation and also how they would want to be treated in that situation, most parents should realize that being left to CIO isn't what they would want at all.  They would want comfort and feelings os love and security.

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#27 of 53 Old 04-13-2011, 05:56 PM
 
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I think the best thing is just to give advice about what else works based on your own experience, let the person know that this too shall pass and that it's normal for babies not to sleep through the night. If you start talking about how harmful you think CIO is you'll just make people defensive and they'll shut down and stop listening.

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#28 of 53 Old 04-14-2011, 06:05 AM
 
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Hasya, it was very common to start solids as early as 8 weeks about 30-40years back.


I sometimes think that we all want to do the "right" thing as parents. If a new generation chooses a different path, a lot of older people feel that what they did was wrong and ignorant and potentially harmful. I think it is quite understandable for some people to feel offended or highly critized. We all want to do what's best for our kids.

 


Her children are 15 and 20 or thereabouts.

 

Regardless, she would keep asking me when I am going to introduce solids after repeatedly being told that her paediatrician strongly recommends NO solids until 6 months. Every single conversation? It gets old after a while, and you find yourself wanting to imply that they were wrong, ignorant, and were harming their children. Just out of perversion arising from worn out patience.

 

PS: At least I feel that.

 


CDing, BFing, co-sleeping, combination of BWing and stroller-using mama to DD, 05/2010. Pursuing a back to nature lifestyle.
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#29 of 53 Old 04-14-2011, 07:35 AM
 
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My response is always "having researched the studies into the effects of crying it out, I really feel it is more harmful than good to do that. It's tough, no matter what you choose, but keep at it and you will find something that works I am sure!"

 

I've had to bite back a lot of comments because so many people I know are all "start babies on solids by 4 months, even if they aren't showing interest, aren't sitting up on their own, etc. Otherwise you will have a picky eater/bad sleeper/malnourished child even if you are breastfeeding" and "crying it out didn't hurt YOU any"

It didn't? Because I have a LOT of anxiety issues that, while have not been proven to have been caused by that... sure as heck could have been!


Artist, photographer, stay-at-home-mom and Marine wife. Mom to 4; a boy and three little girls.
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#30 of 53 Old 04-14-2011, 08:50 AM
 
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i'm not quiet about any of my opinions, so i don't hesitate in telling people i think they are horrible for letting a little one CIO.  i generally explain that it's a baby who's tired/sad/hungry/whatever and you are the only person in the world who can help them, and when they cry for help, you choose to ignore them.  i don't want my son/children growing up thinking i'm not someone for them to rely on and i don't withhold comfort.

 

generally people roll their eyes at me or make nasty comments about how well they sleep vs me who's not sleeping well (as if i'm acting like a martyr).  it's an issue i find so sad that so many parents are almost gleeful about letting their child scream for hours.

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mom to Andrew   born Feb 6th, already a mom to child with fur; and still missing and still wondering about the lost possibilities Mar 17, 2009
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