Colic/Foremilk-hindmilk imbalance/possible reflux/food intolerance? Or, is Grandma just super paranoid? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 31 Old 05-07-2013, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Looking for a bit of direction here.

 

My girl is 7 weeks old and has been fussy and crying for some weeks now with plenty of green poop.  She and I have moved in with my parents as my husband is at a military training for the summer.  This is my first baby, and according to what I've researched on the internet it seems she is intolerant to something I'm eating or we have a foremilk/hindmilk imbalance thing going on.  Others think she just has mystery colic.

 

My mother keeps insisting I get her into a doctor as she has never seen a baby cry so much (she raised seven kids).  

 

While I'm hardly opposed to doctors, I've never believed in running to them for every little thing.  We have our vaccinations appointment next week and I figure I'll ask about things then, though my mother has been urging me to get her in sooner.

 

So our classic adult vs adult thing here is:  She thinks something serious is going on and I don't think my daughter is NEARLY as fussy and colicky as all the other stories I've heard from friends.  

 

I gave up dairy about a week ago and plan to begin giving up wheat today and I'm trying to be much better about block feeding to see if this helps.

 

My daughter's symptoms:

Fussy and crying in the late afternoon and evening (but can be soothed so I wouldn't consider it inconsolable)

Green stools with mucous (some yellow stools but more green than yellow)

Quite gassy

 

So... should I see if I can't get her into a doctor sooner or should I just attempt the block feeding and elimination diets on my own?


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#2 of 31 Old 05-07-2013, 09:08 AM
 
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My daughter was very fussy in the evenings and had a lot of bright green poop (but no mucus) as a newborn.  All of that was perfectly normal.  Foremilk/hindmilk imbalance is a lot less common than people think.  And gassiness in babies is very common and totally normal.

 

The biggest question is whether she's gaining weight and having enough poopy diapers.  It sounds to me like she's just a fussy almost-newborn.  It sounds a lot like my daughter and by 12 weeks she really mellowed and is now the happiest little baby ever.  It doesn't sound like colic because she's consolable. 

 

The only thing I would worry about is the mucuosy poops.  Personally, I wouldn't worry about doing elimination diets at all.  It's important that you're getting adequate nutrition and mother's diet is rarely the culprit, though elimination diets may seem to help because they happen to coincide with a child growing out of fussiness.  I would ask about it at your next appointment, but it doesn't seem to be an urgent problem, IMO. 


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#3 of 31 Old 05-07-2013, 09:20 AM
 
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My cousin had similar problems with her son early on.  Lots of colic and crying/fussiness.  For her, cutting out condiments and strong flavors from her diet did the trick.  She basically ate nothing but bland boiled chicken, brown rice, and steamed veggies - no garlic, pepper, hot sauces, seasonings, etc.  Eventually she was able to gradually add things back in when he got to about 6 months.


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#4 of 31 Old 05-07-2013, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I kept seeing the mucousy poops described in association with the imbalance, so that was my thought there.  Thanks!  I guess I'll just wait till the appointment!


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#5 of 31 Old 05-07-2013, 03:38 PM
 
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My daughter (now 8 months) was like that too for the first few months and the cause was oversupply and forceful letdown. She was always fussy, very gassy which disturbed her sleep, and had green mucousy poop. She also gained weight rapidly (more than expected), fussy during feedings and kept popping off sometimes coughing from the forceful letdown, and would adjust her latch to be really shallow to try to slow the flow. I also tried eliminating a few things with no success until I tried block feeding which made a huge difference in just a few days. Waiting to get further advice at your doctors appointment would be fine I think before attempting block feeding or any further diet changes.
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#6 of 31 Old 05-07-2013, 05:14 PM
 
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I would talk to a lactation consultant or a La Leche League leader, not your doctor.  Even the best doctors rarely have much training in breastfeeding issues, and I've just heard too many stories about doctors' poor advice sabotaging breastfeeding relationships.  It does sound a lot like foremilk/hindmilk imbalance to me, which I dealt with with my first.  Do you feel like you really have excessive supply?  


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#7 of 31 Old 05-07-2013, 05:26 PM
 
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I would contact a LLL leader. I have oversupply/OAL issues and DS had bright green foamy poop. The pedi I took him to said everything I was describing, which were all classic oversupply/OAL symptoms, was normal. It wasn't until I talked to a LLL leader that we got everything figured out. All I had to do was start block feeding, no diet changes at all.


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#8 of 31 Old 05-07-2013, 05:29 PM
 
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Talk with a breastfeeding consultant, lactation consultant, or LLL leader. Mucous can be a sign of trouble. Do not wait for a doctor's appointment, because doctors are not usually helpful with breastfeeding issues.
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#9 of 31 Old 05-11-2013, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Gave in to my mom's worryings and scheduled an earlier doctor's appointment, which was Thursday.  The check-up assured my daughter was quite healthy, which made me feel a lot better.  On the mucus, she wasn't particularly worried as everything else looked fine, but urged me to keep playing around with my foods and eliminate some as she suspects a possible allergy.  She also gave me a few suggestions for feeding her and holding her.  She also encouraged me to express a bit of milk before each feeding.

 

I do like this doctor as she is also a mom to four kids, but I think I might look for LLL help if this continues.

 

It's just nice to hear she looks good physically and is gaining weight.


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#10 of 31 Old 05-11-2013, 11:01 PM
 
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First of all she is only 7 weeks. Give her time, her digestive system is still maturing. my son always had green poop. It never got better. But as he was gaining weight and happy the drs were not concerned. he is now a perfectly health 17 month old. Also a baby that cries but can be consoled at night is totally normal. Very very normal. Colic is inconsolable crying for 3 or more hours every night.

 

 

About you mom. My mil told me when my son was first born that my partner never cried. Not once. Not once in his entire babydom does she remember him crying. I even find myself now looking back just a year and a half ago with my rose colored glasses of such a blissful newborn phase with my son. Only to be pulled back when I read my baby journal begging him to stop crying and to just fall asleep at 4:30 in the am.

 

Babies cry, some more than others. You can block feed to see if it fixes the poops but as your supply regulates it might fix its self. Also if she is having yellow poops too then it is not likely a milk allergy.

 

You are doing fine, from what you described you baby is fine.

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#11 of 31 Old 05-12-2013, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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About you mom. My mil told me when my son was first born that my partner never cried. Not once. Not once in his entire babydom does she remember him crying. I even find myself now looking back just a year and a half ago with my rose colored glasses of such a blissful newborn phase with my son. Only to be pulled back when I read my baby journal begging him to stop crying and to just fall asleep at 4:30 in the am.

 

Y'know, this reminds me of something I very recently brought up.  My mother has commented about how much my daughter cries.  All my life I have heard of how I was such a colicky and crying baby.  So I asked my mother how much I cried each day.  Her reply: about an hour.  Which certainly does not fit with the absurd amounts of crying I've heard others talk about with their babies.  My mom suffered PPD and I was a twin, so I think she may have a very skewed impression of what actually went on.  The rest of her babies were apparently much better, but there must be something to that rose-colored glasses thing!


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#12 of 31 Old 05-12-2013, 12:03 PM
 
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I did have a foremilk/hindmilk imbalance with one of my kids, but it seems like you'd know if you were overproducing milk to that extent. I mean, I was engorged all the time, and I didn't see you mention your own discomfort or engorgement, which makes me think it might be something else. Maybe dairy? You might try eliminating dairy, as that seems to be a common problem.

I would try a lactation consultant or LLL before a doctor. Most doctors aren't trained in breastfeeding, and sometimes their go-to advice is "switch to formula."
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#13 of 31 Old 05-12-2013, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess I'm more concerned about the baby than myself.  I do have engorgement and spray issues...


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#14 of 31 Old 05-12-2013, 12:54 PM
 
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Hang in there!  You are doing a great job.  Glad to hear your baby is gaining and had a great check up.  Mine was super fussy in the beginning too.  Despite working with LC's and doctors and our baby being healthy we would get unwelcomed comments from well meaning family members too. We could not put the baby down in a swing or for instance didn't like the car seat due to crying for months.  It was not colic as we could stop it by change of pace, feeding him, and going through our list (yes, I made a list - it helped when we were too tired to think of things in the beginning) of other ideas to help with a fussy baby.  So we held him and baby wore, went outside for walks, walked around a lot inside, sang, etc.  

Now he is the happiest baby ever.  Just today as we were eating lunch in the kitchen together happily my DH smiled and said remember when we couldn't even put him down?  So yeah, it was rough in the beginning months but so worth it.  And I look back with rose colored glasses too already and he isn't even a year old yet.  I can't imagine what I feel like it 5, 10, or 20 years about it at this rate, LOL.  You are in the thick of it.  And nursing was hard for me too for many reasons, which is why we worked with LC's and LLL so much.  They were very helpful.  You might want to try LLL even just to hang out with people who really do understand.  I also cut dairy, and it helped.  It took 4 weeks to get out of my system since dairy is in like EVERYTHING and it was basically part of all of my meals and snacks.  I just never really paid attention to it before that.  I wish I had done that much sooner.  About 2 months after I was dairy free and had some bites of ricotta in a vegan dish (the cooks fault) and wasn't worried since it was a small amount before I caught it but man that night was awful.  I had cheese again at almost 10 months and baby was very gassy but able to tolerate it much better.  Yogurt in my diet was tolerated much better than cheese, but I had to cut that too for many months.  


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I guess I'm more concerned about the baby than myself.  I do have engorgement and spray issues...

OK well then I'll tell you my experience wtih block feeding! I started with four hours on each side, and you just have to deal with the engorgement and not pump or anything, or your body won't be signaled to make less milk. So four hours, every time she is hungry, on the same side. Then, when four hours are up, every time on the other side. She should start getting some hind milk pretty quickly, and your supply should decrease where it becomes less on an issue within a week or two. But be careful not to overdo it or you'll end up having the opposite problem! smile.gif

A lactation consultant or LLL leader can help you with it too.

Good luck!!
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#16 of 31 Old 05-13-2013, 12:00 PM
 
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It sounds as if there may a challenge in the digestive system, since she's gassy.  As I have learned from our holistic practitioner, gas usually reflects the body's challenge with digesting whatever the person's eating.  Is it breast milk/bottle milk?  Our little one went through that, we had to alter my diet as I was breastfeeding, we both took digestive enzymes, and baby received a topical essential oil ointment for tummy support.  All cleared up.

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#17 of 31 Old 05-13-2013, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It sounds as if there may a challenge in the digestive system, since she's gassy.  As I have learned from our holistic practitioner, gas usually reflects the body's challenge with digesting whatever the person's eating.  Is it breast milk/bottle milk?  Our little one went through that, we had to alter my diet as I was breastfeeding, we both took digestive enzymes, and baby received a topical essential oil ointment for tummy support.  All cleared up.

What essential oil ointment did you use?  My sister-in-law AND cousin recommended the blend "Baby Me" from Butterfly Expressions.  So far it seems to be soothing.


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#18 of 31 Old 05-13-2013, 03:25 PM
 
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My daughter was very fussy in the evenings and had a lot of bright green poop (but no mucus) as a newborn.  All of that was perfectly normal.  Foremilk/hindmilk imbalance is a lot less common than people think.  And gassiness in babies is very common and totally normal.

 

The biggest question is whether she's gaining weight and having enough poopy diapers.  It sounds to me like she's just a fussy almost-newborn.  It sounds a lot like my daughter and by 12 weeks she really mellowed and is now the happiest little baby ever.  It doesn't sound like colic because she's consolable. 

 

The only thing I would worry about is the mucuosy poops.  Personally, I wouldn't worry about doing elimination diets at all.  It's important that you're getting adequate nutrition and mother's diet is rarely the culprit, though elimination diets may seem to help because they happen to coincide with a child growing out of fussiness.  I would ask about it at your next appointment, but it doesn't seem to be an urgent problem, IMO. 

 Mother's diet rarely he culprit? More like MOST doctors don't recieve enough training in nutrition to know just how common food issues really are.  Case in point, our pedi said DD's crying at night was normal, yet the more gas in her belly, the more she wanted to nurse to soothe it and the more breasmilk she ate and the cycle always repeated.  And during that time I finally looked at my diet, saw I was eating an awful lot of dairy (bc it was quick and I *thought* a healthy/great source of protein and fat that would make super milk...).  Pedi told me to not bother with food elmination, but I've studied nutrition a fair amount and cut the dairy.  Took 2 weeks to clear my system, but she was finally content and actually began to nurse less frequent.  For those who say "oh just coincidence" or "she must have outgrown the phase", I tested her several times by eating a slice of cheese or a bite of frozen yogurt, and without fail every single time I reintroduced even the slightest bit of dairy she would become a gassy, fussing mess, complete with bizzare blowout poops.  I even confirmed it with an ND and DD is sensitive to dairy - the protein, not the lactose, which is the case with most dairy sensitive kids (adults are the ones with lactose/sugar issues).  I also confirmed what I figured out on my own that DD was sensitive to Oats.  I called the pedi 24hr number one night after we drove 16hrs to SC to visit my sister and DD (10mos at the time) became covered in blotchy red patches head to toe with swollen eyes and face in an attempt to get a proper dosage of benadryll.  The woman on the phone nott only completely blew off my concern for the food issues, she claimed it was an unexplained stomache bug anomaly - I hung up on her and just stuck with the Rescue Remedy I had on hand and the swelling and red went away almost immediately.  The ND later confirmed oats were the culprit and to this day, the pedi still denies my child has any food issues.  I trust my gut and what I see over anything else.  At least your ped acknowledges it could be a food issue.  They don't need to have an anaphylactitc reaction to be sensitive to something.  And like I said, the dairy took me 2 wks to clear which is pretty common but very much worth the time. Babies don't jsut cry for no reason - we may not always dig deep enough to find the root of the problem but at 7wks they can't explain it any other way, so they cry.  Hopefully elimination will welp you figure things out a bit better and if you really wanted to be sure, find an ND to do sensitivity testing, there's no blood draw required, it's absolutely painless and most can even tell you what your child may have ssues with down the road based on the results.  Good luck!

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#19 of 31 Old 05-13-2013, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Today all her poops were beautifully yellow and she hasn't been quite as fussy the past couple of days.  I've been about 2 weeks with a near-perfect avoidance of dairy, so I"ll keep exerimenting there.

 

I'm still thinking she might be suffering from reflux, though. 


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#20 of 31 Old 05-13-2013, 10:01 PM
 
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I agree with most of what sassyfirechick had to say, except that adults are the ones with the lactose problem. Some people might have a lactose problem, but some are allergic to the protein, and there is new evidence of some being allergic to the fat in dairy.

Near perfect avoidance may still cause problems. Look for hidden dairy, and be careful of contamination if anyone else is still eating dairy at home. Eating out is not really an option, except maybe Chinese food. All other places probably use dairy or contaminate with dairy.

If you are giving her vitamins, calcium carbonate can, and frequently does, cause reflux.

Good luck.
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#21 of 31 Old 05-14-2013, 11:27 AM
 
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It's so nice to hear someone state the facts about elimination diets on this forum.  It's almost always the first go-to around here, even though there's very little evidence they work - without a controlled study, there are really too many unknowns.

 

Sorry for the sidetrack.

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It was a unique essential oil blend created specifically for baby.  Because each baby is different, and responds to a health condition differently, Nicole, who's the Certified Aromatherapist, creates aromatherapy products specific to that person's body type and emotions.  If you're looking for something more targeted, consulting with her is the way to go.  Cannot recall the essential oils.

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It's so nice to hear someone state the facts about elimination diets on this forum.  It's almost always the first go-to around here, even though there's very little evidence they work - without a controlled study, there are really too many unknowns.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

You are referring to which post?
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#24 of 31 Old 05-14-2013, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm still wondering if there isn't some baby reflux at play, as her gulping noises are getting worse.  Vacs didn't happen last week, so we're keeping the same appointment.  I'll ask more questions then, but I am not a fan of unnecessary medication at this age.  Am I just being silly?  I'm going to keep going with some of the strategies the doctor mentioned.

 

Any definite symptoms of reflux?  She has the "colic", the gulping, and as far as spit-up... she rarely does it, but when she does, it's almost projectile.  This has happened about four times over the past two weeks.


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#25 of 31 Old 05-15-2013, 11:18 AM
 
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Contact that referral I sent you, ask her for her opinion.

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#26 of 31 Old 05-15-2013, 11:33 AM
 
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I had this happen with my son. I have strong letdown/oversupply, and block feeding has been a saving grace. Night nursing and nap nursing also helps as he loves to comfort nurse, so he actually gets hindmilk. I also eliminated milk, cheese and citrus from my diet and that completely reversed his gas issues. Worked for me. I went with try everything and anything until something works. Also, cutting out red meat seems to reduce his gas too.
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#27 of 31 Old 05-15-2013, 11:39 AM
 
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I have concerns about reflux with my 8 week old son as well. They started at about 1 1/2 weeks when my milk really started to come in. He would gulp, pull away during nursing, I would spray all over, he would cry for hours, and had green poops. There wasn't much actual spit-up, but it would sound like he was spitting up. When he did spit up it was projectile. I started block feeding, feeding him smaller meals more often, I tried gripe water and baby gas drops. I also eliminated cruciferous vegetables, onions :(, and tomatoes, and replaced dairy with almond and soy milk.

 

Even though he was crying a lot, he was gaining well. I talked to our pediatrician (who is a great listener) and we decided to continue trying different feeding techniques and watching my diet.

 

The most effective techniques for me have been block feeding and feeding smaller meals.I have had success getting his poops back to yellow with block feeding.

 

With my son I have noticed the following patterns.

1. Some of our worst days are after I have eaten tomatoes, onions, or cruciferous veggies.

2. Other bad days seem to be when my supply amps up. When my son gets ready to go through a growth spurt he nurses a lot. The next day I notice engorgement, spray issues, and I think I end up with a lot of foremilk on these days. My letdown gets stronger and there is a lot more gulping, burping, spitting up, and green poops.

3. I have to give him smaller more frequent meals because if he gorges, a whole lot of it comes back up.

 

Once I found these patterns we have had much more peaceful days. I may not need to do all of the different things I am doing, but frankly I am afraid of dropping them for fear that the screaming days will come back. For me it seems so much easier to change my diet and feeding patterns than walk for hours with an obviously uncomfortable, crying infant. I hope you are able to establish patterns for you. Finally, FWIW I don't remember these problems with my daughter (rose colored glasses wink1.gif.) 
 

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#28 of 31 Old 05-15-2013, 12:14 PM
 
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My ds went through a period of green poops too.  In our case they were definitely due to foremilk/hindmilk inbalance.  He was eating short meals so only getting foremilk.  I began making sure he fed for longer (15+ minutes when he was a newborn) on only one side at a meal.  After a few days he was back to yellow poo.  I think I also had some overactive letdown which made him pull off and fuss while my milk was spraying... he would be gassy too.  The gas was a big problem because he had a hernia and the gas was especially painful for him.  I tried feeding with him propped on pillows a bit above my breast facing slightly down and that helped some.  Though it didn't really resolve till he was 3-4 months old and my milk supply settled down.

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#29 of 31 Old 05-15-2013, 12:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pek64 View Post


You are referring to which post?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyTiger View Post

My daughter was very fussy in the evenings and had a lot of bright green poop (but no mucus) as a newborn.  All of that was perfectly normal.  Foremilk/hindmilk imbalance is a lot less common than people think.  And gassiness in babies is very common and totally normal.

 

The biggest question is whether she's gaining weight and having enough poopy diapers.  It sounds to me like she's just a fussy almost-newborn.  It sounds a lot like my daughter and by 12 weeks she really mellowed and is now the happiest little baby ever.  It doesn't sound like colic because she's consolable. 

 

The only thing I would worry about is the mucuosy poops.  Personally, I wouldn't worry about doing elimination diets at all.  It's important that you're getting adequate nutrition and mother's diet is rarely the culprit, though elimination diets may seem to help because they happen to coincide with a child growing out of fussiness.  I would ask about it at your next appointment, but it doesn't seem to be an urgent problem, IMO. 

 

Sorry, was referring to the 1st response (2nd post) on this topic.  Meant to quote it directly.

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#30 of 31 Old 05-15-2013, 12:28 PM
 
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All the symptoms you describe are overactive letdown.  Gulping, projectile vomiting, colic, mucosy poops, intestinal problems/gassiness.  Read more here for description and solution tips.

http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/supply-worries/fast-letdown/

L
aurel

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