How long to leave babe in the car? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 06:37 PM
 
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[quote=paxye;6436458]Electra375: your post made me so sad, I couldn't imagine living with so much fear about everything and everyone... I have never heard of anyone doing the things that you do in the car...

I have also never heard of such things happening, makes me glad that I make a point to watch Canadian networks and news when I watch TV... too much fear being sold...

We don't even lock the doors most nights [/quote

It made me very sad as well.

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#122 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 06:40 PM
 
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years ago Oprah had a show about parenting or something-I don't really remember exactly-but what I do remember was that she pointed out that women who were more worried about not leaving their purses unattended than their children.
I park near buggy drop offs-I put the buggy away and then put baby in the car. I carry all my crap to the car first and then go get the kidlets and put them in the car. I take the baby inside and put him on his blanket and then go get the groceries-I don't buy much in one trip so it only takes one trip out to the car. I don't talk on the cell phone while driving-I hate the interstate and use the highways instead.
When I had my oldest ds I lived in Houston-it was a scary town-I learnedt hen to never leave a child in the car. Especially not a gas station-that was where the most car thefts took place.
My oldest is now 15-I will leave the kids in the car with him for a minute-but he is 6'2" and perfectly capable of keeping an eye on things.
I just worry a lot about these kind of things-what if I leave a baby in the car to run inside for something quick and get distracted and forget about the baby-sounds unlikely but I know a poor overtired mama that this happened to and her baby died. Her sister was in a marriage class with me. It was so devestating for them-she had 5 kids and left one of the twins in the car and just forgot trying to get the groceries in and kids fed etc.--I felt so bad for them.
There are things in life we cannot prevent-there are things we can prevent--so I try to prevent the things I can control. I don't live in fear- but I do not invite danger into my life either.

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#123 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 06:50 PM
 
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I've really just adjusted myself so that doesn't happen.

I double check before leaving the house to make sure I've got everything.

I pay for gas at the pump.

I park next to cart returns.

I didn't really change things when there was 1 kid, but now that there are 2, I don't want to carry both of them, or carry one and hold the other's hand, esp in a parking lot. I never park more than 2 spaces from a cart return.
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#124 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Electra375 View Post
I have actually carried my child back and forth with me while unloading my car of groceries into my house b/c of the neighborhood we lived in -- it was not safe, I didn't want to be grabbed and drug off somewhere and have my child alone in the house for who knows how long before I went reported missing, frankly I felt if someone had to grab me and my son, I was less of a target.
When we lived in our apartment, I did that, too. Or I just carried up the things that HAD to be put away, and left the rest for when DH was home. I lived in a third floor apartment, too, it was a HUGE pain. One time I carried all the bags (this is before I decided to leave bags for DH) first to the bottom of the stairs, then up to the landing, then to the next landing, then to my landing, then in the house, one hand carrying the bags, one arm holding DS. Ugh. But I just couldn't handle the idea of trying to figure out a safe-enough space for DS to be unattended in the house, or leaving him in the car...neither of them was good enough, so that was my solution.


Nowdays I can see the driver's side (which is also the side where DS sits) from my "foyer", so the bags go in and then DS goes in, and I'm usually talking to him while doing it.

Alas, those days have now ended, as early this morning Robert saw a prowler in the unfinished houses across from our little court. Glad he saw the prowler before a prowler saw my car while unloading it with DS in it, even though I do lock/unlock/lock/unlock (however many trips I have to take) it...



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What I think is funny is that, here on MDC, people will go ballistic on you for carrying your infant to and from the house in a "bucket" when it's 30 below so you can buckle them up out of the elements, but leaving them in a car, out in PUBLIC, to pay for gas is Ok?

Am I missing something? :
I think maybe the people are different? I could never go inside a gas station to pay (why on earth does anyone DO that anymore? OK OK, there are stations that don't have it, and there are towns that only have one station, OK fine we don't all live in the same city or country!), and I NOW, as of today, don't leave DS in the car at all (yesterday it was only in my driveway, as mentioned above). So is it the same people?

Also, it's a totally different risk assessment, things that will indeed affect the health of your child, vs something that might happen in a car or plane or whatever situation. If I sit my kid in a walker before he's able to sit unassisted, before he's able to hold himself upright on his own or with just the small assistance of my hands, I AM doing him harm. I may never see the fruition of the harm, hey, HE might never notice it, but harm is done to the growing body. So I won't use a walker or a Bumbo etc etc. That's one risk assessment. The other is...if I do this, just ONE time it might be the worst mistake I EVER made.

Someone mentioned the child strangling in their carseat? Maybe something like that could happen while driving. But that ONE TIME, that ONE story, if the woman had taken her child inside with her, it would NOT have happened, b/c the child would have been out of the seat when the start of the strangulation would have happened, or the child would have been sitting in a different way in the carseat, b/c she was buckled in another time rather than the first-buckle, etc. It wouldn't have happened that way to THAT child, if she'd brought the child in with her that time.



I do find it interesting, how risk assessment changes over time. I lived semi-rurally, but our across-the-street neighbors were known gun dealers and heavy drug users and possible dealers. I was born in late '69, and I have no idea if any seats were ever used with us! We were in buckets seats in our Pinto (though not the exploding kind), my brother and I routinely unbuckled ourselves silently to have a little thrill while our mom drove us all home from visiting friends in San Francisco, we played like monkeys on empty-bus trips (our dad was a Greyhound driver) and dad never made us stop riding in the luggage racks above the seats, even while doing 65...we also rode without seatbelts in the rear-facing bench seat of a friend's station wagon, and loved riding in the back of trucks....

I would do NONE of those things with DS nowadays (of course part of it is b/c of my first stepdad, whose dad owned a towtruck place and tortured us with stories of accidents they'd cleaned up...he even put seatbelts into our classic '55 Chevy...). But it's interesting the way things have changed.

When really, nothing about humans has changed, I took Roman History in college, people throughout time have been awful to each other, just disgusting and vile...but how WE and society have reacted to it, that has definitely changed...
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#125 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 08:54 PM
 
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In the situation that a gas pump blows up I don't think there's anything that I could do if I was in the car with the child. The gas pump could have blown up right next to us as we were on the way into the store to pay together either. My child could choke on spit while I'm driving down the street, and what would I be able to do? By the time I pulled over and got out of the car, it might be too late. What would I do anyway, pound him on the back and hope? I think it'd take longer than a minute to break the glass, unlock the door, open it, unstrap the babe, and run--and in that time my car alarm would have gone out, and I'd have been there in about 5 seconds kicking major @$$.

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It really depends on the situation. If in doubt, take the baby with you.
This is my philosophy. There is no specific law in my state so I use my judgement.

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I will call the police. I don't care if you are rich or poor. I don't care if you are the best mother in the world or if you have a CPS record a mile long. Leaving a child unattended in a parking lot for any length of time is naive, careless and stupid.
Do you know anything about the foster care system? Do you know how often CPS takes kids away? Have you ever heard any of the bogus things kids are removed from their homes for, like having been tickled? What about the child who was removed from her home for 2 years because a man came through her window at night and raped her? The father was blamed, and a DNA test revealed it was a known sex offender--yet CPS still was wrking as fast as they could to get the child adopted so she could never return to her biological home. I would MUCH rather a child be alone in a car for five minutes than put into a foster system where they'll be living in a group home where beatings, theft, rape, etc. are the norm or put into a foster home where the child may have a lot more damage inflicted upon them than they would have if they'd remained in the home with the loving mother who left her purse in the house and ran back in to grab it. Why would you want to call the police on a person you don't know over something so trifle, when they could be the best person in the world--and then CPS would remove their kids and place them in an awful situation. I don't think you know anything about foster care, and you certainly don't need to be making judgement calls about when to call CPS until you do a bit of research about CPS and the foster care system. I think it's naive to assume being out of the car is always safer, careless to say you don't care what kind of a parent someone is but X which MIGHT endanger them is stupid and so they are on the same level as a person with a mile long CPS record, and stupid to judge and call the police on someone, wasting the time of the police who could be off dealing with real emergencies, risking the well-being of the child by having them sent into foster care, and possibly breaking up a family over being left in the freaking car for a few minutes.

Leaving a six year-old who hasn't been told not to play with cigarette lighters alone in a car to go shop is a bit different from leaving your newborn for thirty seconds to get money from the ATM.

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I leave my Shopping cart in my parking spot.
People that do this are responsible for far more deaths and injuries than leaving kids in the car is responsible for. Stray shopping carts cause a lot of accidents.

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Many of these were preventable!
Yeah, but a few could have been prevented in other ways like having a car alarm, securing the trunk, taking weather into consideration--just using good judgement. You have to consider the circumstances and make the choice, not have a one-sized-fits-all rule.

Parking lot deaths are a lot more common than left-in-car deaths.

We can't live in fear of all the things that could happen, ITA. I think we can all agree that taking a reasonable amount of preventative precautions is prudent. However, what each person considers reasonable varies. I think that's the source of the debate.

Quote:
"I don't breastfeed because thinking of the risks/benefits is too overwhelming".
What risks are you talking about, just out of curiosity? I don't understand the releevance.

I'd never gripe at someone about carrying their kid to a car in a baby carrier. I did it as well. I'd much rather spend a quick second setting the carrier into the base than several minutes strapping a newborn in when it's snowing outside.

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#126 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow, this thread really took off. I'm amazed at how twisted things get. Here people are talking about me leaving my baby in the car while I go shopping or something, when in reality, I'm never more than a few metres away and can see him the whole time! All this sensational talk about gas pumps exploding, calling the police, random lunatics running around with hammers looking for car windows to smash open (which by the way, I know they wouldn't be able to do before I got back there, since as I said before, I can SEE HIM THE WHOLE TIME).

Sheesh!

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#127 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 09:12 PM
 
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If I am in the driveway (and my car is about 5 ft away from the front door) I will leave one of the girls in the car while I bring one inside. I sit one of the girls down in the living room and run back out and grab the other. They are getting too heavy for me to carry in both at once anymore.
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#128 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 09:15 PM
 
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I am fortunate to have command start(since it's cold here) and locking features on my remote, so when I pay for gas if she is sleeping I'll turn the car back on lock the doors and take the keys.: I cam see her through the window. I always use the same gas station and the pump guy(Peter) is one of our friends. I also have a baby monitor in the car, because when we were working outside at MIL and she was sleeping we would put the car up to where we were working so she was right there. I'll step away from my car but never more than 2 parking spots. It all depends on the cirrumstances.

DID YOU KNOW
That if you leave your keys in the car and it is stolen, even at a gas pump, insurance won't cover it? I never leave my keys in there anymore.
(yes I anticipate the question "If you don't leave your keys then why your baby?" I really can't answer you, but then again when DD is nappingin bed I'll run to the basement, garage or get the mail(attached to the corner of the house) quick, and I see that in the same category as leaving DD in the car. To me the risks are equal if not worse leaving DD in the house because in the car she is secure and isolated within an immobilizing harness and locked doors. If the pump blows she is atleast protected somewhat by the seat, if the furnace blows she is loose with no protection or support. I don't like to think of these thing because you can't let fear swallow up your life, My solution is to follow my instincts, that is my guildline for all parenting follow your insticts they rarely lead you wrong, if you have a bad feeling don't do it.
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#129 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
What risks are you talking about, just out of curiosity? I don't understand the releevance.
My original statement (and what I was responding to):


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Originally Posted by annettemarie View Post
Personally, I don't live in fear of all the things that "could" happen. It would be overwhelming.
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Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
What would you say to a person who chose to formula feed for that reason? "I don't breastfeed because thinking of the risks/benefits is too overwhelming".
My point is the "I don't live in fear" theory doesn't wash with me. It gets thrown around a lot as a blanket statement, when in reality we all do things based on the supposed fear that something bad/terrible could happen to our kids. As for breastfeeding (or not) that would be diabetes, obesity, allergies, etc etc.

If I didn't live in fear then I would not make half the decisions I do. I breastfeed because I fear what could happen if I didn't. I also do it for the benefits, but I'd be lying if I said the risks associated with not BF'ing didn't scare me. I want my daughter to be healthy, and the thought of her being stricken with health problems that I could prevent strikes fear in my heart.

Same with leaving her in the car. I don't understand the whole "I don't live in fear movement", yet most of our decisions are motivated by this very thing.

If you guys don't live in fear, then why go to the lengths you do to raise healthy, intelligent, sensitive, whole children? Why not just go with the masses and use formula, chemically laden diapers, and ergonomically incorrect baby devices? If you don't fear them, then you should not be afraid of their consequences. I actually see more fear driven responses on this forum then anywhere else on the net, BUT, that's what makes us who we are. We don't just sit back take what a formula company has to say about nutrition as gospel. Fear, in the right way, is a good thing. It keeps us from being nieve and ignorant. IMO, anyway.

Does that make more sense?

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#130 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 09:24 PM
 
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Heidi & Erin11 - ITA.

To those of you against leaving a kid even for a minute...what about people with triplets? Should they carry them all out at the same time? Even with a sling that'd be tricky. What do they do with the others while they buckle each one in, if they used a sling? I can't imagine wearing two babies while trying to strap a third one into a carseat. Should they then, use carriers? How do they get all three out to the car at the same time? Would it be okay then to leave one in the house while carrying out the other two? What about quartriplets or quints? What about people that just a two year-old toddler and a newborn? Or a toddler and twin newborns, or twin toddlers and a newborn? If it's okay in those situations, why? Because it's unavoidable? How does that lesson the apparent danger of leaving a child alone in a car for five seconds while you're meters away grabbing something and can still see them?

I don't leave my keys in the car, ever, especially if my child is in there.

I often get a much worse feeling about crossing a parking lot with my child than about leaving him in the car for a few minutes.

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#131 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 09:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post

Same with leaving her in the car. I don't understand the whole "I don't live in fear movement", yet most of our decisions are motivated by this very thing.

If you guys don't live in fear, then why go to the lengths you do to raise healthy, intelligent, sensitive, whole children? Why not just go with the masses and use formula, chemically laden diapers, and ergonomically incorrect baby devices? If you don't fear, then you should not be afraid of their consequences.

Does that make more sense?
My decisions are not. I go through the lengths I do because I believe the things I am doing to be best. I don't put my babies in playpens not because I fear they're going to get a button caught on the mesh and die or because I'm afraid they won't hit developmental milestones, but because I honestly believe it's better for them to be close to mama in a sling or free-range on the floor. I don't let my kids cry it out, not because I'm afraid they'll burst a blood vessel or gag on their own vomit, but because I believe it's better for them and for me if I meet their needs. I don't formula feed not because I'm afraid they'll have an allergic reaction and die or because I'm afraid they won't get those extra IQ points (if they even exist) but because I believe breastfeeding is best for baby, mama, the family, and the planet.

I'm not afraid of the consequences so much as I am enamored with the benefits.

ETA: One of my favorite Bible verses:
For God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

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#132 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 09:28 PM
 
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annettemarie, ITA!

You said...
Quote:
'"I don't breastfeed because thinking of the risks/benefits is too overwhelming".'
What risks are there to breastfeeding that makes this scenario relevant to the 'I don't live in fear' statement? No one said thinking about the risks or benefits was too overwhelming, just that trying to prepare and prevent every possible emergency was overwhelming (not to mention impossible). There's a difference between doing what is OBVIOUSLY the best thing for your child--and trying to plan for and prevent every little out of the blue sudden scenario, like gas pumps exploding. It's just... it's a real stretch there, and it doesn't do anything for me.

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If you guys don't live in fear, then why go to the lengths you do to raise healthy, intelligent, sensitive, whole children?
I do that out of love, not fear.

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#133 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 09:33 PM
 
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I'm not afraid of the consequences so much as I am enamored with the benefits.
I agree.

However, I don't CIO because I am ALSO afraid of the risks. I don't use a playpen because I am ALSO afraid of the risks of ignoring her locked up in a baby jail. I breastfeed because I am ALSO afraid of the risks of not doing so.

I don't dispute all the wonderful things that drive me to make the decisions I do, but it wouldn't be called risk assesment if I never thought of the risks. Sometimes the risks are down right scary and terrifying, and that includes my daughter baking to death in a hot car or being kidnapped by a car jacker.

I also do these things out of love, but not doing them is scarey. Period.

And with that, I give up.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#134 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 10:11 PM
 
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Heidi & Erin11 - ITA.

To those of you against leaving a kid even for a minute...what about people with triplets? Should they carry them all out at the same time? Even with a sling that'd be tricky. What do they do with the others while they buckle each one in, if they used a sling? I can't imagine wearing two babies while trying to strap a third one into a carseat. Should they then, use carriers? How do they get all three out to the car at the same time? Would it be okay then to leave one in the house while carrying out the other two? What about quartriplets or quints? What about people that just a two year-old toddler and a newborn? Or a toddler and twin newborns, or twin toddlers and a newborn? If it's okay in those situations, why? Because it's unavoidable? How does that lesson the apparent danger of leaving a child alone in a car for five seconds while you're meters away grabbing something and can still see them?
I agree with you!

It's hard enough to get out and about with twins, I can't even imagine triplets, etc.! I used to try my hardest to grab both of the girls out of their carseats at the same time (what a sight that was!) but the last time I did I tripped as I was walking in the door and all three of us fell. We were okay and no one got hurt but that was enough to make me stop doing that. We don't live in the country and there is about 10-15 houses on my street but I feel that the risks are too great of me tripping and falling on the concrete carrying my two little ones rather than just leaving one strapped in the carseat while I set the other down really fast. The process of coming back for the other takes about 15 seconds whereas carrying them both in at the same time takes about a minute and carries the risk of me dropping one or tripping.
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#135 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 11:16 PM
 
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And hell, if watching my parents try ot get my kids both unstrapped and out of the car is any indication, I could see a whole movie before a crazy person got them outta those damn contraptions.
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#136 of 154 Old 11-03-2006, 11:31 PM
 
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Boy am I glad I don't stop and analyze everything I do to death !! What ever happened to just being a good selfless parent loving your children and making sure they are safe? That's all I try to do, I don't even really know what mainstream/AP really means. I certainly don't put a lable on myself, I just live my life to make the people I love happy, content, safe, etc. That goes especially of course for my children
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#137 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 12:08 AM
 
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I have a 10 mo old and a 2 yr old.

I pay at the pump. I park next to shopping cart return spots as often as possible.

Having said that, I live in a good area and I have no qualms about leaving my kids in the car briefly, assuming it is not hot or cold outside. When taking groceries inside, I have sometimes left them in the car, fully strapped. I think it might be safer to leave them in the car then to have them in the house while I'm outside.

Likewise, if I can't park next to a shopping cart return, I will leave the kids in the car while I return the cart. Having an infant and toddler, there's a good enough chance that my toddler will wiggle free from me and dash off in the parking lot - that of course, freaks me out. I think she's safer in the car than in the parking lot. Also, if I had to pay inside the gas station, I might not take my kids in - again, my toddler would make a mess of the gas station shop, potential running off in the parking lot, etc. If I had to pay inside on a regular basis, I would prefer to fill up when I was by myself, but I recognize that many single moms might not have that luxury. I will not judge.

I don't think there's any hard and fast rules here. Each parent does what they think is safest. Sometimes, being in the car is safer than the alternatives.

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#138 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 12:09 AM
 
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Gosh, you know, I remember back in the day, when I was a kid, living in a small town, that during the winter moms would leave their kids in the car, with the car running, to rush into a store.

Sigh.

Well, we all have to live with our own fears. I am too paranoid to leave my daughter in the car even for a second. But I live in a city, so that makes a big difference. I wouldn't leave an old mouldy shoe in my car or someone would try to break in and steal it.
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#139 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 12:11 AM
 
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However, I don't CIO because I am ALSO afraid of the risks. I don't use a playpen because I am ALSO afraid of the risks of ignoring her locked up in a baby jail. I breastfeed because I am ALSO afraid of the risks of not doing so.
I'm not afraid of the risks because I don't do those things, and I don't do those things because there are better alternatives without risks. I have no need to be afraid of something that has no place in my life. I don't fear formula feeding. I think the chance it would harm my son is low. I just know breastmilk is better. When it comes to leaving my son in the car, I'm not afraid of the risks because I use my judgement. I pick the scenario that seems less risky...stay in the car in the hot sun, or come into the store? Stay in the car on a nice day for five minutes, or cross the dangerous parking lot? Either way there are risks but I pick the one that seems less risky or most beneficial.

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#140 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 09:57 AM
 
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I don't do those things because there are better alternatives without risks.
So you do think of the risks? We have the same motives, yet I don't understand why we disagree. I weigh the risks involved in doing something, and if there is a higher road, I take it. However, I would be lying if I said that I wasn't afraid of the risks associated with certain tasks, hence my judgment not to do them.

There is nothing wrong with being afraid of the risks. Afraid - "feeling fear" (Dictionary.om). Every aspect of how I raise my daughter is backed up by love and a desire to do it, but every day there is something I skip, or miss, or revise because it could be done better because there is a risk that I'm afraid of. Does that make me live in fear? No. I don't think so. Not everything I do can be done out of love. There are things I love, but I know they're bad for me, and it is the fact that I'm afraid of the risks that keeps me from doing it. (Like eating a bag of Halloween candy when I have blood sugar issues.)

You don't want to walk your children across a busy parking lot. Why? Because you're afraid of what could happen, not because you love leaving them in the car.

The next time someone asks about infants watching TV, make a note of how everyone responds. When I asked that question I recieved about 10 links outlining the dangers, the risks, and the negatives associated with TV. Not one person said they didn't watch TV because they love doing other things, but because they were afraid, or were in some other way deterred of the risks.

We ALL make decisions out of fear at some point or another. I love grass fed organic beef, yes, but I'm down right scared of the crap I can get at the grocery store. I choose not to buy it because I'm AFRAID of it and what it can do to my family, ie; the risks.

I love breastfeeding, but when I battled with supply issues one of the reaons I didn't quite was because I was AFRAID of the risks of formula.

I could go on and on about how one weighs the risks and decides against something because they are far too scary, so to turn around and say you never live in fear and your decisions are always based on love or a an appreciation of the benefits is, in my opinion, totally unrealistic.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#141 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 10:38 AM
 
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Never.

I once had to run to the ATM (we don't have any drive thru ones on the island), It was pouring rain, and I parked 10 feet from the ATM. I took my baby with me.
I would NEVER under any circumstances leave my child in the car alone.

~Moose
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#142 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 11:32 AM
 
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Stating that there are alternatives without risks doesn't mean I think of the risks. How can I think of risks that don't exist? There are no risks for breastfeeding, and the risks of formula-feeding don't exist to me...so why would I think about them?

We disagree because you weight the risks, while we weigh the benefits and possibly the risks--not out of fear, but love. I am not afraid of the risks BECAUSE I weigh them. You seem to weigh them BECAUSE you are afraid of something bad happening.

I've never said anything is wrong with being afraid, just that fear isn't much of a motivator in my life. I am not afraid of my children walking in the parking lot. I walk with my son in the parking lot all the time. I just feel the car is safer in some cases. I don't fear that, if he comes with me to return the cart, we'll get hit. I just know that it's a possibility. I don't fear what I cannot prevent. Ok, well, except zombies. Those things scare the crap out of me.

I know plenty of people who have chosen not to watch TV because they love doing other things, such as spending quality time together as a family. In any case, that most people do whatever action out of fear doesn't mean that I do.

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We ALL make decisions out of fear at some point or another.
Sure, we do, but not on a daily basis. I try not to include fear in my daily life.

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I love breastfeeding, but when I battled with supply issues one of the reaons I didn't quite was because I was AFRAID of the risks of formula.
I wasn't afraid of formula. Again, I already stated that I think the chance that formula will HURT my son is slim. I just know it won't help him, which isn't a risk--just a fact. I know the breastmilk will improve his immune system. Am I afraid he won't be healthy without it? Absolutely not. I know lots of healthy formula-fed babies.

For example, I don't vax because I'm afraid of the vaccines. I don't vax because I'm NOT afraid of chickenpox.

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#143 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 12:17 PM
 
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How can I think of risks that don't exist?
Oh but they do! You are doing things to alleviate those very risks. If the car is safer parked somewhere else so you don't have to walk across a busy parking lot, you acknowledged those risks by making the decision to do something safer.

There are no risks associated with choosing pink as an alternative to red (unless you're running with the bulls..lol), but choosing a SAFER alternative to something means you have thought of the risks. You may not dwell on them, but you have thought of them. If not this would all be a non issue.

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There are no risks for breastfeeding
There are risks to NOT breastfeeding (which I addressed above).

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We disagree because you weight the risks, while we weigh the benefits and possibly the risks--not out of fear, but love. I am not afraid of the risks BECAUSE I weigh them. You seem to weigh them BECAUSE you are afraid of something bad happening.
No, I don't make decisions or weigh the risks because of fear. I make decisions while acknowledging that the risks scare me. That is not living in fear. That is being Human. I do things out love and because I see the many benefits, but many times it's also because the risks are scary. When thinking of risks versus benefits it is only natural to acknowledge that the risks are something to be afraid of.

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I am not afraid of my children walking in the parking lot. I walk with my son in the parking lot all the time. I just feel the car is safer in some cases.
Right, and I'm not really afraid of a random car jackings or crazy maniacal baby-stealer's, but I do feel it's safer not to be put at risk for those things to happen. Just as you're not really afraid of walking in parking lots, but sometimes you feel it's safer not to do so.

And why is it that you feel the car is safer sometimes? Because you love the car and its many benefits? You love the upholstery and the surround stereo system? The way the steering wheel feels in your hands, how the cup holders are placed in just the right spot? Probably not. You probably feel the car is safer because you are afraid of what could happen while walking across a busy parking lot.

What makes something safer anyhow? The idea that something else would be more pleasant and beneficial? Or that the alternative would be dangerous? Perhaps both, but being afraid of dangerous things is NORMAL.

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I just know that it's a possibility. I don't fear what I cannot prevent.
The thought of your child being struck by a car or being kidnapped doesn't scare the ever living crap out of you? It does me. I don't walk around all day being plagued by images of car crashes and kidnappers, THAT would be living in fear, but making a decision because the risk is scary is a completely normal and rational thing to do. If not there would be no risks, as everything would be all gumdrops and lollyops.

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I know plenty of people who have chosen not to watch TV because they love doing other things, such as spending quality time together as a family. In any case, that most people do whatever action out of fear doesn't mean that I do.
As do I. But I'd be lying if I said the risks of improper brain development didn't scare me.

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I try not to include fear in my daily life.
I don't "include" fear in my life. My whole quest in life is to leave fear behind, hence the reason I do things that do not involve risks that I'm afraid of. Living in fear would be thinking about the possibility of a random car jacking the whole time I am paying for gas had I decided to leave her in the car. NOT living in fear is taking the extra 5 minutes to unbuckle her to alleviet the fear that something bad could happen in that spit second. Making decisions because you fear the risks is not equal to living in fear. Living in fear is making decisions that are fearful, not making decisions to alleviate fear.

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For example, I don't vax because I'm afraid of the vaccines. I don't vax because I'm NOT afraid of chickenpox.
Same here, however, the thought putting formaldehyde, heavy metals, aluminum, phenol, lactalbumin hydrolysate, antibiotics, MSG, and God knows what else into your child's body doesn't somehow scare you? It does me. I weighed the risks of a disease/illness against the prevention, and preventing a disease/illness has some scary risks. That is part of what helped me make that decision.

I'm not afraid of flying, but that doesn't mean I'll climb the tallest building and jump. Why? Because I'm AFRAID of what would happen if I did.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#144 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 01:48 PM
 
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The statement "How can I think of risks that don't exist?" was referring to these so-called risks of breastfeeding, as well as CIO, formula-feeding, etc. I made it clear that chosing whether or not to leave my child in the car was a different scenario. When chosing to FF or BF, you are chosing one thing with risks or one thing without. When chosing whether to leave the child in the car, you are chosing one thing with risks and another with risks, and you have to chose which one seems less risky and most beneficial. I don't, however, do it out of fear, because I'm not particularly afraid that we're going to get hit by a car or that my gas pump is going to explode. Of course I don't want either of those things to happen so I use logic to pick which scenario has the last amount of risks. However, I'm not *afraid* of it happening. I try not to fear what I can't do anything about. If the gas pump is going to explode, it's going to explode. If we're going to get hit by a car, then it's just going to happen. Now, I doubt I could do anything about zombies, but those things do still scare me. I don't fear a guy breaking into my window and stealing my child because I never stray far enough from him that it would happen. I lock the car, turn on the car alarm, stay where I can see him, and never go more than a few feet away or leave my keys in the car. If some guy had broke my window it would take him a while to get the babe out, or to hot wire and start the car. I believe I'd have time to kick butt, so I'm not afraid of that. However, I think you have inspired me to buy a taser or some pepper spray just in case.

I'm not really sure what the pink/red thing is going on about.

There are risks to NOT breastfeeding, yes, but considering I have chosen to breastfeed-NOT because of the risks, but because of the benefits--those risks don't exist for me. I don't worry about risks of things that aren't in my life.

Unnecessary, frivolous risks scare me. Walking across a rickety bridge over a canyon filled with racing water would scare me. Leaving my child in the car, or walking across a busy parking lot, does not.

Knowing something could happen and taking precautions to prevent it out of love is very different from being afraid.

Either we have a different definition of what dangerous, fear, and normal are or I am just abnormal....

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But I'd be lying if I said the risks of improper brain development didn't scare me.
I wouldn't, because as they are risks that go along with something I don't do, it doesn't apply to me.

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Same here, however, the thought putting formaldehyde, heavy metals, aluminum, phenol, lactalbumin hydrolysate, antibiotics, MSG, and God knows what else into your child's body doesn't somehow scare you? It does me
It doesn't scare me. It just seems stupid and unnecessary.

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Because I'm AFRAID of what would happen if I did.
Whereas I wouldn't do it not because I'm afraid of death but because I'd rather be living at the moment.

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#145 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 02:35 PM
 
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I wouldn't, because as they are risks that go along with something I don't do, it doesn't apply to me.
Of course not, and this is how one goes about not living in fear - making decisions that do not cause them to be afraid. There can be MANY reasons that lead to a decision being made, but it's quite common for the risks to be involved in that equation. I love playing with my daughter, taking my dogs for walks, going swimming, cooking, etc. All these things 'cause me to not watch television, however, part of the deciding factor was because there are RISKS associated with watching television. Now that we made the decision not to there is no longer reason to be afraid. However, to say that that decision was made solely because I love doing other things and I appreciate their benefits is grossly unrealistic.

And you're right, now that the decision has been made to not involve TV in my life, the risks are no longer something to think about.

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It doesn't scare me. It just seems stupid and unnecessary.
Of course they're unnecessary, this is part of why they're so scary - pumping your body full of something that it doesn't need. Unnecessary, deadly chemicals in mine and my daughter's body scares me. The chicken pox, however, doesn't. Now that we decided not to vaccinate and the risks are no longer relevant, it's not something to fear.

Taking my child out of the car because leaving her there poses a risk alleviates fear. How does one live in fear by making decisions that frees them of being afraid? The second she is safe in my arms and I'm not looking over my shoulder to ensure she is safe dispels any fear of the situation. How is that living in fear?

I don't for a minute presume that the crucial decisions I make for my daughter are all made out love, though I'm very fortunate to love the things I do.

You mistake me for saying that fear is the only deciding factor when making decisions. Ie; "I'm afraid of chemical preservatives, therefore I won't vaccinate". My thought process is much like yours, ie "I'm not afraid of chickenpox because she will build natural immunity". It just so happens that part of the decision also included a fear for things that are known to cause health problems.

I take my child out the car because it's easy, I like holding her, it's much cooler, and yes, because the thought of her being kidnapped is scary. But that is not the basis for my decisions. I object to that thought process as being akin to living in fear, when in fact I prevented myself from being afraid.

ETA, I think this is just going in circles, I'm going to gracefully bow out. Those that understand the reasoning behind risk assessment have surely gotten my point by now (that a fear of risks does not equate to living in fear). I don't want to change your opinion, even though I feel our opinions are much more similar then you think. I agree very much with what you are saying, but because a person wants to minimize risks, however obscure or rare they are, does not mean they live in fear. And with that, NOW I'm done. I promise. LOL. :P

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#146 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 02:55 PM
 
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Sure, I'll agree with you. Making decisions that don't cause fear can help keep you from living in fear. That doesn't however mean we make those decisions out of fear or to prevent fear.

They're not really scary to me. Actually, vaxes more gross me out than anything, lol. They kinda make me want to roll my eyes and possibly puke when I think about what's in them.

I've never equated anyone's choices here to living in fear. I've just stated that I'm not going to spend my life worrying about a gas pump exploding. I also never stated fear was the only deciding factor in your choices; you were the one mentioning mainly fear when explaining your choices, though.

I leave my child in the car because it's easy, because he likes finishing his nap or playing with his mobile, it's much warmer or cooler at times, because I believe the parking lot is more dangerous, etc. There is never just one factor when I make my choices either. It's usually a combination of things, never just convenience like sooo many people seem to think that's why people leave their kids in the car :/

ITA that it's going in circles. *chuckles* We just have our own opinions about what is more/less risky in various situations.

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#147 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 03:17 PM
 
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ITA that it's going in circles. *chuckles* We just have our own opinions about what is more/less risky in various situations.
Yep. Something else you said just made me sort of chuckle.

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Knowing something could happen and taking precautions to prevent it out of love is very different from being afraid.
Yeah, 'cause I carry her in to pay for gas because I hate her. I know that's not what you meant, but it sort of illistrates my point. I wouldn't be worried of seeminly silly things if I did not love her. My decisions are very much motivated by love, but also because the risks are sometimes downright scarey. Zombies scare you, car jackers scare me.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#148 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 03:18 PM
 
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I would never call a mother who left her kids in the car (not hot, not cold, locked) to run into the house, store (glass windows where mom can see car), gas station, atm, or whatnot, lazy. I don't know where someone gets that kind of judgment. Honestly. Are you in her shoes? Do you know if she is recovering from surgery and is on lifting restrictions? Do you know if her child has strep and the reason she's running into the drug store is to get her baby's prescription and wants to leave them warm and bundled sleeping in the car? Does she judge every risk/benefit judgement you make? Are you risking your child getting cancer by giving them french fries? Do you sometimes forget to lock your door at night because you are tired? Did you vaccinate your child and she doesn't? Did you not vaccinate your child and she does? Did you UC and risk your child's life? Did you have hospital births and risk your child's life? Un be lievable the judgement.

I remember growing up and being left in the car for a LOOOOONNNNNNGGGGG time. "Stay in the car." Ok mom. Don't fault them for it one bit. How things have changed. And I don't mean the risks have changed; if anything, I think things are safer.
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#149 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 04:09 PM
 
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I'm with Payxe - I can't imagine living in such a suspended state of fear. I think I'd move if I feared my city in such a way. I'm also Canadian, and our doors are 9 times out of 10 unlocked, we trust our neighbours and the people we meet out and about.

The fact is horrible things can potentially happen anytime, anywhere. It can happen at home, when you're just in the next room, or even sitting right there. Or you can raise your children in a bubble and the minute they outgrow their sheltered world tradgedy can strike. I am all about lowering risks wherever I think it is reasonable, but some of this seems sadly excessive to me. Should we also refrain from highway driving and taking trips that involve air travel? Should we never let our kids go play with their friends as they grow older? Where to draw the line?

Whatever any individual mom is comfortable with, I say thats great. But lets not get all high horsey and start calling the cops on each other. It's just not necessary, or nice for that matter.
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#150 of 154 Old 11-04-2006, 06:05 PM
 
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I haven't read this whole thread...but i think i'm in the monority here.
I don't think anything is wrong with leaving a child in a car for a minute or so. If the car is turned off and the doors are locked, IMO, things are safe. I walk up to the ATM and leave the kids in the car...or i put a letter in a mailbox ...or i return a movie...

I don't let fear control my life. I do what i feel is right.
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