sad comment in baby-rearing book - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This comes from a book I was given by my ped, written by the AAP. They're talking about CIO as the preferred method of getting your baby to sleep.

"Crying that goes on for more than twenty minutes may need to be checked to see if there is not some problem (such as an open diaper pin), but such interruptions should be short."

Well, it's nice that they give a nod to cloth diapering, but can you imagine having a pin sticking into you for twenty minutes?? Or, worse yet, they only say it "may" need to be checked, as in - it's your call whether you check or not. Imagine having determined parents who *don't* go check and the diaper pin sticks into you all night long!

This makes me very sad. I shiver just to think of it. (And haven't these people ever heard of a snappi??)
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#2 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 03:57 PM
 
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OMG! That is so horrible! What if the pin was doing serious damage? My sil uses CIO and my IL's think its *so great that she falls asleep on her own* *and doesn't bother to cry because she knows that no one is coming* I guess they forgot when she would cry for an hour or so before sleeping. Poor sweet niece. I get sick reading stuff like that. Then again they call me a hippie Well I am proud of it! Im happy that Sophie knows I am there for her and I won't leave her when she needs me.
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#3 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 04:05 PM
 
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Good point - being stuck for 20 minutes with a pin!

It just seems SO freakin' obvious to me:

Your baby can't say, "Hey! It's dark, I'm scared, I need you!" (or whatever) so it cries, instead. WHY is it okay to ignore that?

AND

If you ignore your baby asking for you, it's not going to trust that you will be there when it needs you.


http://www.babycenter.com/general/pa...baby/3581.html

Ferber's view infuriates me every time I read it.
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#4 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I agree with all that has been said, but I wanted to say that I was nervous about posting this here because I know that CIO has been the fuel for many a bitter fire, and so I just want to make it clear that this was not intended to be a post about CIO, but about how terrible it would be to be stuck wth a pin for 20 minutes (or all night.) So please, anyone who feels that they have had to use CIO for whatever reason, don't get upset - I know that nobody here would *ever* let their baby suffer pain for any reason.

BTW - what parent wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a "I don't want to be alone" cry and a "something sharp is sticking into me" cry??
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#5 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 04:17 PM
 
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BTW - what parent wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a "I don't want to be alone" cry and a "something sharp is sticking into me" cry??
My IL's insist that they can tell the difference. They ignore her though so how would they know because they don't listen?
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#6 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by famousmockngbrd
BTW - what parent wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a "I don't want to be alone" cry and a "something sharp is sticking into me" cry??
I couldn't. Not for a good six months I don't think I could tell any difference in crying. I read all the books that promised I would be able to, as the mama, but I couldn't! All crying sounded the same to me and I soothed my DS in any way I could. Maybe I'm a slow learner, though.

That book you quoted from sounds horrid. For me, I am physically unable to do CIO without injuring myself. I never tried CIO or anything close but just imagining it made me feel sick and like I should be injured for making my DS suffer.

But that is me. Only me and my feelings.
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#7 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 04:43 PM
 
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That's just sad!
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#8 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 04:54 PM
 
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How awful!! I did have an open pin on Donovan once when he was little, I picked him up when he seemed fussy, going through the usual motions (walk, breastfeed, rock, then change dipe) and it took me about ten minutes to figure it out. I can't imagine having "let him" CIO for twenty minutes or more when that *WAS* the problem!!!!
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#9 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 05:51 PM
 
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Moderator's Note:
Though I know a diaper pin is related to Diapering :LOL, this discussion belongs in Life With a Babe, so I'm going to move it on over there with a re-direct from Diapering.
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#10 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 05:55 PM
 
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aww...busted!

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#11 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 06:08 PM
 
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I got that book when I had Lily. I read a couple of chapters and then threw it in a box in disgust. I have an image in my mind of a poor infant all alone and bleeding with a pin sticking in him.

Sandy, proud mama and henna artist. :
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#12 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 06:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Melaniee
aww...busted!

:LOL You guys . . . always a challenge :LOL
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#13 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 06:43 PM
 
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I followed the BC link and found this:

Ferber's view:
Co-sleeping isn't a good idea because people sleep better alone. While sleep sharing is okay for the occasional night or two if your child is sick or very upset, in the long run it's best to help her learn to separate from you without anxiety and to encourage her to see herself as an independent individual by having her sleep in her own bed. Read more about Ferber.

Then how come most married people sleep together? :

How's that for generalization?!
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#14 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 07:06 PM
 
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Maybe he and his wife have twin beds.
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#15 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 07:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Melaniee
Maybe he and his wife have twin beds.
:LOL

Okay, I laugh, but my first child DID NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH ANYONE! She still gets mad when her sister wets the bed and has to sleep with her. It is a DOUBLE bed . . . they are SMALL kids - and yet EMELIE cannot STAND it when she and Meredith have to share space.

Meredith, on the other hand, could sleep on top, next to, straddled by, WHATEVER with anyone.

Kenny falls asleep up next to me, but he sleeps better on his own. If he is next to me he will wake up over and over and over.

All that said, I don't think sleeping patterns are necessarily a viable argument FOR CIO. Even if a baby isn't sleeping WITH a parent, it doesn't mean they need to CIO.

But then, we did not mean to discuss CIO . . . sorry!
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#16 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 08:09 PM
 
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Originally posted by HeatherSanders
But then, we did not mean to discuss CIO . . . sorry!

Okay, if I'm the only one that reads this that thinks that the start of this thread was REALLY about diaper pins, then I won't come back to this particular thread ever again. Really. I'll go quietly. Without hard feelings.

But, I'm finding this tough to swallow, so to speak. I feel like I missed something. When I began reading this thread, I really did think it was about the CIO method. The first post only quotes the mentioning of pins as an example of what parents should check for.

Ugh! This makes it sound like parents can't raise their children WITHOUT all the books by ALL the experts!!! I totally DON'T get this at all.

And if someone reading this gets upset because they use the CIO method, well I mean no personal offense. I have yet to see convincing evidence that it's a healthy tool to use and I would welcome an intelligent discussion on the topic. I'd really be interested in someone's reasoning to use CIO on a regular basis. I personally find the CIO method dis-honoring of a baby's only way for communication and can affect the overall long-term relationship between parent and child. I think that I could be open to hearing from various parents who have used this method and have excellent relationships with their children. Everyone I have ever heard that used this method had continued problems with their kids. Has Ferber methods/CIO really been used long enough to see how it affects parent/child l relationships in the long run?

If we can remain open-minded and refrain from ATTACKING each other, why can't we have a MATURE discussion about this topic?

As one example of mature discussion and live and let live, I personally choose to birth outside a hospital. I have seen, heard and experienced things during my child-bearing years that make me feel that hospital birth is not something I personal need to do. But I have plenty of friends who choose otherwise or are happy to follow the crows. That's fine. I'm personally very GLAD that we have many options and the freedom to make whatever choices we deem best for our family. It's when people make amazing judgmental statements like that I'm "putting my baby at risk" to birth at home or think I'm crazy for not WANTING an epidural, etc., that communication breaks down rapidly. Yes, I realize I am a bit off topic here...my apologies. There are many other threads on this particular subject. I'm just trying to cite an example that it IS possible to discuss something and not wind up flaming and hating each other for the choices one or the other decides to make.

So, how about it? Any CIO users willing to engage in thoughtful debate about this method of child-rearing? I'll gladly start the thread.

^^Liss

p.s. I suppose I'd better search the forums to see if it's been discussed already....
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#17 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 10:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonLissa

Okay, if I'm the only one that reads this that thinks that the start of this thread was REALLY about diaper pins, then I won't come back to this particular thread ever again. Really. I'll go quietly. Without hard feelings.

But, I'm finding this tough to swallow, so to speak. I feel like I missed something. When I began reading this thread, I really did think it was about the CIO method. The first post only quotes the mentioning of pins as an example of what parents should check for.

Ugh! This makes it sound like parents can't raise their children WITHOUT all the books by ALL the experts!!! I totally DON'T get this at all.
I do believe that the OP has a personal strong stance with regards to CIO, but it seems her intention was truly to point out that a quote such as the one she posted is absolutely ridiculous. "Crying that goes on for more than 20 minutes may need to be checked to see if there is not a problem (such as an open diaper pin). . .

Although I'm not the moderator of this forum, I would gather that if you are looking for a calm, intelligent discussion regarding CIO, that a new thread with a peaceful OP (much like what you posted above) would stem the discussion you are looking to have.
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#18 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by HeatherSanders
I do believe that the OP has a personal strong stance with regards to CIO, but it seems her intention was truly to point out that a quote such as the one she posted is absolutely ridiculous. "Crying that goes on for more than 20 minutes may need to be checked to see if there is not a problem (such as an open diaper pin). . .

Thanks, Heather - that is exactly what I meant.

I posted this originally in diapering and I had a feeling it would get moved. I didn't want it to become a CIO discussion in the diapering forum, but if people want to talk about that here that is perfectly fine with me.

I *do* have *very* strong feelings about CIO, and I'm sure it has all been said before - disrespects the child, makes them feel anxious and abandoned, violates the trust between parent and child, etc. I totally agree with Heather when she says that just because a child doesn't sleep with you, doesn't mean they should be allowed to CIO. As a child, I *hated* sleeping with anotehr person - usually. When we went on vacation and I had to share a bed with my mom, I did *not* like it! But, when I had a nightmare or something, you bet I crawled into mom's bed or asked her to come into mine. Cole used to sleep with us, but now he sleeps in his crib. But if he *wants* to sleep with us, he's welcome to. And, if he wakes up crying in the middle of the night or is having trouble getting to sleep, I am right there with the rocking arms and the Leo Kottke CD.
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#19 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 10:25 PM
 
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My intention was to point out that this thread HAS, in fact, been discussing the CIO method more often than getting stuck with diaper pins, and to try to AVOID talking about the CIO method is ... confusing. At least to me.

It's like that "elephant in the room" thing. You can certainly see it, probably hear it (breathe). You have to look around it to talk to others in the room and you can certainly SMELL it, so why not acknowledge it?

Better yet, why apologize for acknowledging it? I don't get that either.

^^Liss
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#20 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 10:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonLissa
Better yet, why apologize for acknowledging it? I don't get that either.

^^Liss

Although I love the elephant analogy , the thread was not started with the intention of discussing CIO or avoiding the discussion of CIO - but to discuss a silly comment in a book. We try to keep threads on topic <I say that with tongue in cheek b/c we do often veer a bit> however, and although the OP does not have a problem with discussing CIO in general, it needs to be started as a separate thread.

I agree there would be no need for apologizing for acknowledging it.

Please feel free to PM me if you've any other questions regarding this thread and the discussion or lack of discussion of the CIO method in this particular thread.
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#21 of 29 Old 07-02-2003, 10:44 PM
 
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the thread was not started with the intention of discussing CIO or avoiding the discussion of CIO - but to discuss a silly comment in a book.
Okay. Seems like a lot of useless discussing about nothing, then.

Quote:
Please feel free to PM me if you've any other questions regarding this thread and the discussion or lack of discussion of the CIO method in this particular thread.
Your invitation to leave is clear. I said I would go if the post was REALLY about diaper pins. So.....I'm gone.
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#22 of 29 Old 07-03-2003, 12:06 AM
 
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Originally posted by MoonLissa
Your invitation to leave is clear. I said I would go if the post was REALLY about diaper pins. So.....I'm gone.
Please don't take offense . . . as I certainly wasn't asking you to leave the discussion altogether. Rather that the 'subject' of the thread being/not being CIO did not need to be discussed further. Though you said you would leave it if the thread was really about diaper pins - it really isn't 'about' that either, but I'm certain I've explained myself full circle now. I apologize if I'm not speaking with clarity this evening, but again . . . I was not asking you to leave the thread.

Sometimes the 'ridiculous' or the 'everyday' although silly, makes for good conversation amidst many more intense subjects like CIO.
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#23 of 29 Old 07-03-2003, 01:06 AM
 
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The mod of this board is stepping in to comment now. Thanks, Heather for carrying on in my absence.

My first reaction to the original post was that it was a CIO thread. There really isn't much to discuss about a diaper pin sticking your child while letting them CIO. It can go one of two ways -- it turns into a discussion of other types of cloth diapers that don't use pins, or it turns into a discussion of CIO.

I am perfectly okay with this thread continuing on as a CIO thread as long as the OP is okay with that. It seemed to be the natural direction it was going to take. If you are not, let me know and I can lock the thread and members will be free to start another thread.

For those who are really interested in debating the whole CIO issue remember that you really are preaching to the choir here at MDC when it comes to CIO. There are some members who have tried it, and some members who feel that it is fine, but they are in the clear minority. This discussion seems to arise often on various boards and I encourage members to do a search. You will find many interesting threads from days gone by.

If the discussion continues as a CIO discussion, please keep it respectful. I have my mom and stepdad staying with me and that puts me in a bad mood. I'm not a fun moderator when I'm crabby.
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#24 of 29 Old 07-03-2003, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Of course if people want to discuss CIO in the context of this thread, they are welcome to do so. It doesn't need to be locked.

Although, Jish's "preaching to the choir" comment is right on. Especially when a baby is being poked with a pin! Really, this was just meant to be a "look at this, isn't this incredible" kind of post. Which is why I put it in diapering to begin with.

I think it's ironic that the argument here isn't about CIO, but about whether or not this thread should be about CIO! If it is, it is - but again, I don't know what there is to be said about it besides *don't do it"! Honestly, I think we could get into a more interesting discussion of why the AAP would say such a thing in the first place. Do they not think being stuck with a pin is a big deal??
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#25 of 29 Old 07-03-2003, 01:44 AM
 
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I think it's ironic that the argument here isn't about CIO, but about whether or not this thread should be about CIO!
I too find this amusing.

As far as the AAP example in the book, I can understand their theory behind it. If you subscribe to their theory, then you wouldn't want to run in right away, you want to give the baby a chance to resettle themselves, but jeez, couldn't you come up with an example that doesn't involve pain to the poor baby?

I'm not a CIO person but I have friends who do it to varying degrees.
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#26 of 29 Old 07-03-2003, 03:25 AM
 
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so now we are no longer talking about diaper pins (mine stuck one in her nose the other day. you better believe that even if I was doing CIO when she screamed like that you couldn't hold me back. A deaf person could ave known that was a serious cry. it was awful but anyway, jusy a little PSA - keep the diaper pins way out of reach, or just use velcro)

or CIO.

we are just talking about, talking about CIO.



sorry not that funny probably but it is late late late here.

edited - somehow I missed the last 3 posts. I am glad I am not the only one who found this amusing.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#27 of 29 Old 07-03-2003, 04:26 PM
 
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Is it the free one from the pediatrician? It's called, 'Your Baby's First Year"? Well, it states that it's from the AAP, but if you look on the back, it was actually put out by Similac!!! It has AAP recommendations in it, but it was not written by the AAP. I found it amusing that they emphasized formula use in it so much...go figure, it was put out by a formula company!

:bf
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#28 of 29 Old 07-03-2003, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yep, that's the book.
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#29 of 29 Old 07-03-2003, 05:25 PM
 
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Just to clarify, it is NOT put out by Similac. I have the copy of "Caring for your baby and young child, Birth to age 5" which the hospital gives out. My copy is five years old and they are not on the cover or in the book anywhere. The one that the pediatrician is giving out is likely a scaled down model of that book. Similac may have had a hand in getting in in the "first year" format and getting their name on the cover, but that was a recent development and they are more like a "sponsor." The copywrite belongs to the AAP.
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