SAHM a "choice?" - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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#91 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 09:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
I think to use one thread as a means of condemming the entire forum is wrong.
I was not saying that this one thread was indicative of the forum but it was the attitude and comment of the poster who said
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Why would anyone be here if they were not SAHMs or interested in being SAHMs? I thought this was supposed to be "our" place where we could discuss issues that SAHMs relate to.....I realize any MDC member can post anywhere, but I figured that in the SAHM forum I wouldn't have to worry about offending the WOHMs.
She was not talking about this thread, she was talking about the forum. Her statement is indicative that she feels that it is OK to say what she wants about WOHM's because this is a SAHM forum. She doesn't think she has to "worry" about WOHM's feelings. This is EXACTLY what I understood the powers that be wanted to avoid- a platform for the mommy wars.

This is a PUBLIC message board and therefore all forums are open to all people. Even people who don't agree with everything you say. Some are less welcome here than others but it is still a public board. Many people are also here to learn. There are FF's by choice who go on to breast feed, circ'ers who go on to not circ. Moms who vaccinate who later choose to delay. Spankers who go own to be GD advocaters. SAHM's who go on to to be WAHM or WOHM's and vice versa. We can all benefit form looking and learning form both sides with love and support not anger and hate.

Lastly- look at what this next comment says about WOHM's.
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What bothers me most about some of the posts on this thread is the insinuation (or in some cases, statement) that daycare - even a top notch one - comes close to a full time mother. It just is not so except under extreme circumstances, obviously- like severe abuse.
Imagine how a WOHM would feel reading this. It is implying that only children who are abused should be in daycare. Remind me tell my pediatrician next time she saves the life of an infant. Or to tell the SAHD we see at the playground that he is doesn't even come close to providing the care his wife could....

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#92 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 09:23 PM
 
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I totally agree with lillylove's post. If some people think it is judgemental too bad.
Having your kids in daycare everyday is having someone else raise your kids.
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#93 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 09:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nycapmom
What bothers me most about some of the posts on this thread is the insinuation (or in some cases, statement) that daycare - even a top notch one - comes close to a full time mother. It just is not so except under extreme circumstances, obviously- like severe abuse. It reminds me of formula feeders who claim formula is equal to breastmilk, or say "I was formula fed and turned out fine" Everyone will make their choices for whatever reason. No need to defend yourself but PLEASE do not claim that all choices are equal.
Excuse me? Did I read that right? It is only ok for abusive moms to use daycare? So a SAHD is useless? And women should be home, preferably barefoot and pregnant? Or at least, certainly not pursuing outside interests. Because that would be wrong.

I can't stand this attitude. Like others have said, this was the fear in opening a SAHM forum, and I am so incredibly disappointed to read this.

Where is the fact in this statement? Where is your science? Just because you don't think that it is equal doesn't make it so.
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#94 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 09:49 PM
 
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Um........daycares do not raise kids. I am a sahm. I think it is the right decision for MY family but it is crazy to assume it is always right as several other pps have mentioned. This is exactly why I avoid this forum. These attitudes hurt me. I might be a sahm now but frankly it is not a dream come true. I miss working. I miss interacting with adults. I miss having a paycheck and feeling like I have invested monetarily to my family. I miss the security of having not checked out of the workforce being at the mercy of future employers should I ever need a job (like if I got divorced or dh got disabled). If we are going to have governement policies, they should focus on both types of families and families should be able to choose. I agree with that. I would like to see social security credits for my time at home. I would like to see better standards and higher pay for daycare workers if I ever choose that route. To say that a mother's place is at home and only at home is oppressive, discriminatory, old fashioned, anti-feminist, and plain not right. I feel dd might be better off if I went to work and someone that actually enjoys spending their day playing with children were to be with her. But I do not have a crystal ball....maybe not. Maybe she is better off with me, a person that likes to be an adult and spends much of her day interacting in the adult world. The fact is, I do not know. No one does. I am very glad I have a choice even if I am not sure I am making the right one. I am lucky. Dh makes enough for me to decide what I want. I made enough that dh could have stayed home. We weighed our options...including both of us working and this is how it panned out. But if things were justa bit different, I would be a wohm and dh would be a wohd and I would be posting in a different forum. To assume everyone can our should make a certain decision is very niave and self centered.
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#95 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So the next time you take up arms in the Mommy Wars be a dear try and refrain from the whining, won't you?
Why, because I chose this so I just need to take what it brings? Not a chance...I will whine about everything I don't like. Got news for you - if I was a WOHM I would still find something to whine about. I'm just a whiner! :

And yes, I believe maternal care is better for my children than any other kind of care and I didn't think I had to hide that attitude here!
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#96 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 10:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball
And yes, I believe maternal care is better for my children than any other kind of care and I didn't think I had to hide that attitude here!
You don't. THat is a fine attitude to have. But don't tell me what is better for MY children. Can you see that distinction?
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#97 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess if I thought people saw other care arrangements as equal to full-time parental care, they would not be drawn to this forum. I guess that was wrong.
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#98 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 10:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball
I guess if I thought people saw other care arrangements as equal to full-time parental care, they would not be drawn to this forum. I guess that was wrong.
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#99 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 10:35 PM
 
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I am in this forum to talk about the challenges, rewards, and other things about being a SAHM, not to be self righteous or judge other mothers.

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#100 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 10:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball
I guess if I thought people saw other care arrangements as equal to full-time parental care, they would not be drawn to this forum. I guess that was wrong.
Good time to throw in "parental" in the care portion of your statement now that we've established that it's not really fair or appropriate to focus ire on working moms and not working dads who, presumably, are also not "raising their children" by your definition.

Anyway, I would think that - aside from this being a public forum - anyone who is a SAHM would "be drawn to this forum". I thought the price of admission was just being a SAHM, not a SAHM who passed certain litmus tests in terms of decisions, views, choices and suitability for the job. (ETA: Litmus tests, by the way, apparently established in advance by just a small portion of the membership.)
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#101 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 10:43 PM
 
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I think this is a great discussion. Another good book, is the Myth of Motherhood that touches on this topic, but probably more so for the woman who makes the choice to work vs to stay at home.

Anyway, my staying at home with my daughter, my oldest child, was a choice. Of course we would have gone to the poor house had I worked though. However I too, like others here believe that daycare cannot compare to mother or parent care given full time, especially in the first few years of life, unless the parent or mother has some type of issues that it would not be in her or her children's best interest to parent full time. I know some women feel the need to work, or have to work to support their famlies, but I still feel having one SAHP is best for the well being of young children.
That being said, my kids do go to preschool three half days a week and they are 3 and 4.
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#102 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 10:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball
I have felt sick and sad when I've read some of the threads in the WOHM forum, so I don't go there anymore.

You're over there right now as I type this! Or at least your name is listed at the bottom of the screen as being present. What could your motivations possibly be - to make yourself "sick and sad"?
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#103 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 10:56 PM
 
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I am drawn to this forum like I have posted to talk about be a sahm, not to judge others. I love being a sahm, I love the choice I made, I am thanked everyday by seeing my dd. BUT I know that this is not the love fest for each and every mother out there.

I am a firm believer that this is not the best choice for all mothers. I am around other sahm's each and every day and I can tell you- some are great doing what they are doing for the most part. Other really should find a a loving caring daycare and take full advantage of it. Why- they are not abusing their children, but they seem or are unhappy. Should they return their children like a shirt to the store they changed their mind on? NO too late for that now huh? But they need to make the most of a situation.

Greaseball- lets not turn back the clock and stick women in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant. We have come a long way baby and I refuse to judge any mom working for a paycheck and then coming home to her other FT job. I also refuse to judge the me's out there who said- hey I need to stay at home and be with my child. I have been on the receiving end of that so I know how the working for pay Mom must feel when someone like me judges.

Its hard enough being a parent no matter what letter you have in front of it. Lets use this area to talk about how you do the sah thing or what you need support on. I do not venture into the work for pay area only because I have no clue what advice I could offer or anything for that matter since I have never done that! So since I have not walked in a WOH mama shoes, I think it would be quite small of me to make her feel that she does not love her children, puts them in other care because she is afraid she would abuse them or whatever that pp said.

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#104 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by chalupamom
You're over there right now as I type this! Or at least your name is listed at the bottom of the screen as being present. What could your motivations possibly be - to make yourself "sick and sad"?
Probably for the same reason you are here - I wanted something to whine about.

Actually, I do occasionally pop in there whenever I start to feel doubt about my worth as a SAHM. It's a wake-up call for me.

And yes, I do believe as a WOMAN and MOTHER and WIFE my place is in the home with the children! I guess I have ruined the women's movement and am raising my daughters to be submissive to men!

Why do we have to somehow sugar-coat our beliefs if we believe that women/wives/mothers have certain roles? Why do we have to worry so much about offending someone else? I believe MATERNAL care is better than a daycare center, breastfeeding is better than formula feeding, no CIO is better than CIO, GD is better than spanking, no circ is better than circ, and homeschooling is better than public school. Why should I have to add "Oh, but I guess for some people all that other stuff is good too" to these statements?
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#105 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 11:12 PM
 
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Greaseball, think whatever you want about your own family. I don't care what you do. But don't decide what is best for other families. I don't understand why it is so hard to grasp the concept that what works for you may not work for someone else. Really, what makes you think that you have all of the answers, for everyone?
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#106 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 11:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by the_lissa
I am in this forum to talk about the challenges, rewards, and other things about being a SAHM, not to be self righteous or judge other mothers.
Me too. It would make me really sad to see this forum become a place to bash the choices of working moms
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#107 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 11:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball
MATERNAL care is better than a daycare center,
Whatever you or I believe about daycare, daycare is not nec the opposite of maternal care. There are many creative ways for families to look and work, and SAHM is not nec the be-all, end-all to me. As a SAHM (and a happy one at that), and having been raised by a SAHM, I feel very qualified to speak of the negative aspects of being/having a SAHP. It is still the best choice for my family, but I recognize that there are some downsides.
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#108 of 117 Old 05-12-2005, 11:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball
Probably for the same reason you are here - I wanted something to whine about.
I'm here because I'm a SAHM, I thought that what this whole deal was about. Oh, wait. Now I remember - I'm not the right kind of SAHM so for some reason that has yet to be explained I'm not supposed to be drawn here. And yet here I am. Maybe you could ask that the forum should be retitled to something like "SAHMing, but not you...you know who you are, the one who doesn't agree with me"

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Originally Posted by Greaseball
Actually, I do occasionally pop in there
So why tell us that you "don't go there anymore" because it makes you "sick and sad"? Why not tell the truth that you shore up your self-worth by going to another forum for the expressed purpose of making yourself feel better by comparing yourself to women who you believe to be beneath you in terms of womanhood and as mothers.
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#109 of 117 Old 05-13-2005, 12:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Actually, I'm not the only one who does that. Other members have shared that they sometimes read the birth stories that ended up as highly interventive births to get ideas of what not to do in their own births or what kind of signs to look for. Or that if they are ever unsure about not circing, they read things in the circ forum to assure them they made the right choice. Every parent has doubt about whether they are "doing it right."

As far as you not being the right kind of SAHM, I don't even know what kind you are or what you are talking about. I don't know who you are at all. I don't remember what other threads I've seen you on or what other issues you have discussed. Guess I don't think too much about you after all!

About what works for individual families, that's true that there are differences. But for individual children the needs are often the same. Maybe breastfeeding doesn't work for every mom, but it's still the best food for just about every baby. That's just one example...

And as far as the challenges of being a SAHM, that's why I started this thread - usually, my greatest challenge is putting up with people who tell me either that I don't have the right to make this "choice" because I didn't build up a hefty savings account before becoming a mother, or that since I "chose" this lifestyle I have no right to complain about anything that comes with it or to expect help from anyone else.
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#110 of 117 Old 05-13-2005, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by the_lissa
I am in this forum to talk about the challenges, rewards, and other things about being a SAHM, not to be self righteous or judge other mothers.

Me too. (Now that I know it exists!) But..in doing so I will not apologize for my way of life nor for how I feel about my choices, decisions or others'...I will not walk on eggshells either to appease someone who doesn't feel as I do.

I will speak freely about my government mainly because it is that, to me, which is far behind in supporting mothers/parents who stay at home. I have nothing to judge in terms of other mothers who work, why would I? If I had the chance (translated: Perfect ideal job in a perfect setting where my kids could be with me ) I would work too probably.
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#111 of 117 Old 05-13-2005, 12:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball
Actually, I'm not the only one who does that.
Didn't say you were. Why did you tell us that you "don't go there" when now you're saying you do?


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Originally Posted by Greaseball
As far as you not being the right kind of SAHM, I don't even know what kind you are
As stated in response to your "I guess if I thought people saw other care arrangements as equal to full-time parental care, they would not be drawn to this forum." I'm the kind of SAHM who doesn't agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Greaseball
Guess I don't think too much about you after all!
Is this supposed to upset me in some way? Or maybe put me in my place? Are we supposed to be thinking of each other? Sending flowers maybe or thoughtful notes?

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Originally Posted by Greaseball
And as far as the challenges of being a SAHM, that's why I started this thread - usually, my greatest challenge is putting up with people who tell me either that I don't have the right to make this "choice" because I didn't build up a hefty savings account before becoming a mother, or that since I "chose" this lifestyle I have no right to complain about anything that comes with it or to expect help from anyone else.
I'm not at all clear on how this discussion was to help you with these issues. No one ever said here you can't or shouldn't complain about aspects of SAHMing that are challenging. But you haven't done that, all you've done is disparage women who deal with their own challenges in ways you might not have chosen.

Recently you defended your own choices as not requiring justification, that the mere fact of wanting something was good enough and that almost everything you do is because you wanted it or found it was the best thing for you and your family, whatever research might say. It was a passionate defense and well written. Why not extend to other women the privilege you've claimed for yourself?
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#112 of 117 Old 05-13-2005, 12:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shayinme
: Seems this conversation has taken a rather negative turn. As a newbie to MDC and someone grappling with the decision to become a SAHM (or to be more technical a WAHM) this type of discussion frankly scares the crap out of me.

It seems that rather than having a honest dialogue on the issue of whether or not SAH is a choice and looking at the factors that allow some Moms to make that choice, it feels like a bash fest of WOHM.

There is no way that you can have a true dialogue about choice without discussing barriers that prevent someone from becoming a SAHM and all the other details that go into such a decision. To paint Mamas who "choose" to work as women who are abdicating all responsibility of their children to others is simply a misinformed, ignorant and rather polly-annaish view of the world.

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Stick around, Shay, I like your style.

Seriously, it is a choice. The problem, imho, is that it is a choice that is not equally available to all families. The fact is that the conservative agenda wants me to stay home with my children because I am a middle class woman, but they do not want poor women to stay home with their children. That gets my knickers in a wad.

The choice should be available to all, poor women, wealthy women alike, and right now it really isn't. (The welfare to work act? Argh.)

So for me it is a choice, but I am super concious that for others it isn't.
We need high quality daycare, and we need it to be subsidized by the government. We need to offer poor women or men who want to stay home with their kids the monetary equivalent of the "daycare vouchers" that are designed to push them back to work.

Kaly
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#113 of 117 Old 05-13-2005, 12:50 AM
 
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Hey you all, please keep in mind that this forum is a support forum and not a place to debate SAHM vs Working. If there are any further posts in the spirit of debating this matter, the thread will be closed. Thanks!


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#114 of 117 Old 05-13-2005, 01:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shayinme
: Seems this conversation has taken a rather negative turn. As a newbie to MDC and someone grappling with the decision to become a SAHM (or to be more technical a WAHM) this type of discussion frankly scares the crap out of me.

It seems that rather than having a honest dialogue on the issue of whether or not SAH is a choice and looking at the factors that allow some Moms to make that choice, it feels like a bash fest of WOHM.

There is no way that you can have a true dialogue about choice without discussing barriers that prevent someone from becoming a SAHM and all the other details that go into such a decision. To paint Mamas who "choose" to work as women who are abdicating all responsibility of their children to others is simply a misinformed, ignorant and rather polly-annaish view of the world.
I agree. I find this thread very discouraging as an expectant mama. I came across this forum and thought it would help me discover the worth, value and joys of SAHMing, as I am still wondering if it's right for me. But checking out this forum over the past week, I feel more negativity than excitement at the thought

I'm not sure why. From some pp, I get the feeling I have to be an *all or nothing* SAHM - I feel as if there all are these rules and regulations I have to follow to "belong to the club", such as *absolutely no daycare* (ITA that there were comments that seemed to liken mothers who put their children into daycare as abusers! I'm sorry, I guess my mother was an abusive parent then?!), or that nothing is equal to full-time parental care. If those are the rules, I'm not sure I want to join in.

ITA that this forum is open to all MDC members and that the bashing that I've felt has gone on in this thread is more destructive than constructive. I was enjoying finding out about all these wonderful ideas that I had never thought of before, like CD and GD. In those forums, I feel empowered to make my own decisions as to what's best for me and my family. Right now, I don't feel this SAHM forum is helping me make any right choices for me - it seems too limiting and negative.

And Greaseball: I admire your strong convictions, but when I read your comments, I really do feel as if I'm being judged (and I haven't even made any SAHM choices yet :LOL). Not everything is black or white, 1s or 0s, YKWIM?
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#115 of 117 Old 05-13-2005, 02:08 AM
 
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Of course it is a choice. You could go to work, there will always be a McD's or Walmart willing to hire you. It may never be a hard choice for you, but it will always be a choice.

I agree with the poster that shaded the WOH/SAH debate in grays. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I work part time, my husband works a schedule that allows him 3-4 days off during the week. Occasionally, we have a day that we both work, and we are fortunate enough that MIL can watch them. So our children have full time family care. Are they worse for not having a stay at home MOM?




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#116 of 117 Old 05-13-2005, 02:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Greaseball

And yes, I do believe as a WOMAN and MOTHER and WIFE my place is in the home with the children!
That would be fine if you left it at that: that you feel that YOUR place is at home. The trouble is, you (and some of your co-posters) seem to think that ALL women/mothers/wives should be there as well. And you have put down people who have made other choices. And you seem (lip service to "parental" care notwithstanding) to have let fathers/partners off the hook of caregiving responsibility completely.

Speak for yourself about your own experience and choices. Cite research, if you want, about how children fare in different caregiving situations, about different family-friendly (or unfriendly) policies, about the economic and psychological health of SAHPs vs WOHPs. Even whine if you want! But quit making unsupported claims about how your way is the only way, and insulting the many loving parents in this community who have made caregiving choices different than your own. That is NOT what this forum is for!

ETA: oops--just saw the "no debate" mod post. I'll edit if I need--although I am not debating the actual issue, just making a point about how people are treating each other in this thread!
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#117 of 117 Old 05-13-2005, 02:25 AM
 
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Can't say I didn't warn you. Sorry, this thread is closed.

7yo: "Mom,I know which man is on a quarter and which on is on a nickel. They both have ponytails, but one man has a collar and the other man is naked. The naked man was our first president."
 
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