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#1 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I watch the news and feel so overwhelmed by the autrocities that happen so often. : This most recent school shooting at Virginia Tech got me thinking...

I understand that there is a great deal about the shooter, his family, and the circumstances that I don't know, first of all. But I couldn't help but think to myself, "this is why I am a breastfeeding, attentive, SAHM" while I was watching the news cast. No I can't guarnatee that my son will never freak despite my efforts nor can I assert that the VA Tech shootings could definetely have been avoided, but...

I think that the world is falling apart because the family is falling apart. In America we have this standard of living that requires us to be absent from home way too much to pursue financial success, but while we are out working all day where are our children?

I can't help but wonder if when the shooter was a baby did he need more? Was he left to CIO? Did he have a breast to cuddle when he needed to be comforted? Was he held close and assured that even in a scarey world he was safe? I have a hard time believing that he was. Were his cries/inecurities comforted or ridiculed as a child?

I think about us SAHM and I feel like we can save the world. The personal sacrafices that we make for our children are making them better human beings. We are teaching them that interdependence is the natural way to live. Maybe if more people felt this way someone would have been able to reach out to the shooter successfully. (perhaps if the shooter understood this he would have accepted the interventions that were offered) We are teaching them that it is safe to trust people and expect good things from them. We are teaching them to be self sacrificing, gentle, senstive, and compassionate. We are teaching them that regardless of what this crazy world is doing at any given moment, they are loved on a very fundamental level.

I have a hard time believing that any person who felt TRUELY LOVED on a core, unshakable level would ever lash out so violently and cruely against human life. Perhaps I am hopelessly niave. :

Everyday we work an unnoticed job, doing what many consider to be old fashioned or outdated as SAHM. But there is a crack in our world that is growing into a canyon quickly where the family used to be. I believe that we are combating the expansion of that crack, creating helping hands that can catch the falling souls in our lost world.

But this is just my opinion.
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#2 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 12:11 PM
 
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I have a hard time believing that any person who felt TRUELY LOVED on a core, unshakable level would ever lash out so violently and cruely against human life. Perhaps I am hopelessly niave.
I think the human psych is sooooooooooo complex and EVERYTHING effects it -- there is jsut no way to know for sure one way or the other......

too many abused kids abuse, too many abused kids don't. most serioal killers had toubled childhoods, but lots of popel with troubled childhood don't kill --- it is sadly not black and white (or purple and pink)

i don't think good moms can prevent everyhting, just like i don't think bad moms cause everything ------- ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh it would be so nice if it were that easy

but I do agree -- by being home with my kids I AM making a difference. I am sending them off intot he world as secure and confident as i can -- so maybe the 100 million other things that effect tehm, won't effect them as much or as badly........and by staying home i am watching them to see if they need help -- beause there is no shame in mental illness the shame is in not careing for it.

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#3 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post

but I do agree -- by being home with my kids I AM making a difference. I am sending them off intot he world as secure and confident as i can -- so maybe the 100 million other things that effect tehm, won't effect them as much or as badly........and by staying home i am watching them to see if they need help -- beause there is no shame in mental illness the shame is in not careing for it.

Aimee
that is exactly how i feel. like i understand that every child is different and the world is full of craziness but we have to be there. like if one day my son does freak, hopefully i'll notice and respond so it doesn't end up a worse case scenario. sorry for no caps, naking.
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#4 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 12:33 PM
 
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It's true that many people who were abused and neglected as children do not become psycotic killers but it's vary rare to hear about a killer who had a very secure loving childhood. There is usually something sevearly lacking.

However I don't really think that simply working out of the home raises the risk of your child growing up to be a psyco. Many, many parents who work out of the home do fantastic jobs of rasing secure kids. (and many SAHMoms or SAHDads are neglectful) It is definatly harder to be attached when you need to spend long periods of time away from your kids though. Being SAH isn't the only way to be attached but it does make it easier for me.

I think when people snap like that, the problem is much deeper than the number of hours per day spent with a parent rather than some other caregiver. I recently read a studdy that many psycopaths' parents, for whatever reason, rarely if ever made eyecontact with their children. To me that goes wayyyyyyy beond not being attached.

Let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you.)0(
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#5 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I recently read a studdy that many psycopaths' parents, for whatever reason, rarely if ever made eyecontact with their children. To me that goes wayyyyyyy beond not being attached.
That is so awful!

I don't think it is about a number of hours I think it is about the quality of time spent as well as a good amount of time being invested. I think that WAH is totally fine. I don't think that working and good parenting are mutually exlusive, I just think that even the best parents who have obligations outside of the home as time consuming as a forty plus hour work week will mostly have divided attention to offer. So I think SAHM(D)ing is like the best case scenario for raising your kids in a very attentive, responsive way.
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#6 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 12:58 PM
 
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I recently read a study that many psycopaths' parents, for whatever reason, rarely if ever made eyecontact with their children.
this fits well -- lack of eye contact is a majior red flag -- and if the parents can't make it or maintain it -- that is clearly showing a defect in them (be it orgainic, or emotional) which the child is not only tied to gentically but also raised with.

ah the complex nature of human behavior -- nthing is a vacuum.

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To me that goes wayyyyyyy beond not being attached.
I think al the issues go way beyond being attached. attachement is ideal, there are a lot of non-ideal sitautions where the person is not on a roof top with a gun, or in a class room with a gun.

However i fear we fall too close to bab pop psychology when we either blame the mom 100% or praise her 100% either. I hate to say that, I'd love to take all the credit for the happy, social, boy who smiles all teh time (who is currently trying to smash him binki into the table with a sippy cup).

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#7 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 01:23 PM
 
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Really I think this type of thinking just puts to much pressure on the mother. In some way I think that our children have their personalities "set" before they are born. Of course we as parents can have a tremendous impact on our children by loving and caring for them-yes this is important-but even if a child is given a great deal of love and attention-this is not a guarantee.

Also this person refered to in the op apparently had some mental health issues. Such issues are important to address on an healthcare level-for instance if someone I cared for had diabetes, I wouldn't think to myself "if I love him enough the diabetes will resolve itself." We have to start taking mental illness seriously, it is a disease. Of course a great deal of mothers ( wohm, wahm, sahm,) are parenting their children to the best of their abilities.

So we do what we can, and pray for the best.
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#8 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 01:31 PM
 
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I think you are confusing the issue. Good parenting does not prevent mental illness. Cho was unquestionably mentally ill.

Also, please be cautious with statements about working parents. There are many working mothers on this site who are doing an excellent job raising secure, attached, happy children.

grateful mother to DD, 1/04, and DS, 2/08

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#9 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 01:52 PM
 
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Good parenting does not prevent mental illness. Cho was unquestionably mentally ill.
no good parenting does not. that has not been stated

however, good parenting (from any parent or grandparent) does get mental illness the care it needs early on.

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Also, please be cautious with statements about working parents. There are many working mothers on this site who are doing an excellent job raising secure, attached, happy children.
I just reread this whole thread

1. no one has said woking moms cause mental illness or crazy people who hurt others.

2. this si the SAHM area and if we want to talk about how we feel we are doing something good for our kids we can do that. there are threadin the working mom area abouthow woking moms benhfit kids too.

3. if you read NONE of us have said that staying home will prevent mental illness, or our children acting crazy and hurting people -- in fact over and over again moms are posting that we know we don't have full control and that bad things can still happne -- ad still do happen.

and as for undue pressure on the mom -- ture enough moms are blamed for allt he bad, and as i stated before we can't be blamed for everything nor can we take credit for everything -- but I do think that 1. the pressure is already there, no matter what we talk about and 2. some of it is justified (I worked with abused kids for 9+ years, and i know what can be done to a child). it is not pressure it is responiblity and accountablity

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#10 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 01:57 PM
 
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I have a really hard time with eye contact.
Very interesting...
I bet my son does too.....
Em
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#11 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 01:59 PM
 
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I have a really hard time with eye contact.
Very interesting...
I bet my son does too.....
Em
remember lots of things, includeing cluture you are raised in effect this.

but yes, i would expect you son to learn that from you. UNLESS he is a lot more exterverted and picks up "doing it" from others as he ages.

A

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#12 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 02:04 PM
 
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I know- I will focus on this and work on it.
Oh- I also want to say- the passion the OP is feeling- WHAT I DO IS IMPORTANT! Is very true and very important to feel for a mom and for a sahm!
Cause alot of the time- we can tend to think it isn't.... cause our society does not reward it the way it should-but mindfully raising our children IS important for the WHOLE WIDE WORLD! Whether you are at home or not- thinking your children are IMPORTANT- feeling thinking people- IS IMPORTANT!
We are saving the world because we are raising the world.... really- and our kids will do the same- it is a pass along kind of thing-
WE do have an impact....
and I bet my impact right now while my kids are watching Barney and eat doritos is NOT a good one....oops.
Off to go make some meaningful eyecontact!
Em
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#13 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post
and as for undue pressure on the mom -- ture enough moms are blamed for allt he bad, and as i stated before we can't be blamed for everything nor can we take credit for everything -- but I do think that 1. the pressure is already there, no matter what we talk about and 2. some of it is justified (I worked with abused kids for 9+ years, and i know what can be done to a child). it is not pressure it is responiblity and accountablity

Aimee
I get what you are saying here definitely. I am a sahm too, I just don't think it is always an acurate assumption to think if we parent a 100% doing all that we can, our children will be ultimate citizens. Of course this is what we hope for and strive for, but life isn't always so clear cut, there is no definite formula-results do vary, thats all. Still I know that a home full of love and acceptance (and responsiveness) is essential for any child.
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#14 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 02:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post
however, good parenting (from any parent or grandparent) does get mental illness the care it needs early on.
Good parenting is trying to get a child with mental illness appropriate care, but there are so many factors that contribute to making that difficult. I'm not a professional & I don't have any stats to back this up, but I would suspect that transitioning young adults as a group have a very hard time making the switch to self-sufficiency.

Say a mentally ill young man graduates high school & goes away to college. His mom used to put his meds in his hand (because a verbal reminder was not enough) and now he doesn't have that support anymore. He forgets to take his meds & starts a downward spiral.

Please don't blame the mother.

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#15 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 02:29 PM
 
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Wasn't Eric Harris' mother a SAHM?
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#16 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 02:29 PM
 
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I can't help but wonder if when the shooter was a baby did he need more? Was he left to CIO? Did he have a breast to cuddle when he needed to be comforted? Was he held close and assured that even in a scarey world he was safe? I have a hard time believing that he was. Were his cries/inecurities comforted or ridiculed as a child?
I don't konw, but it was later discovered that one of the Columbine shooters had this type of childhood. Not a mom who worked because she had to but made the effort to parent well while at home--but parents who used daycare to "get him out of their hair." At home, he was so unsupervised that he was building his artillery right there in his room and his parents had no clue.
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#17 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 02:31 PM
 
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Good parenting is trying to get a child with mental illness appropriate care, but there are so many factors that contribute to making that difficult. I'm not a professional & I don't have any stats to back this up, but I would suspect that transitioning young adults as a group have a very hard time making the switch to self-sufficiency.

Say a mentally ill young man graduates high school & goes away to college. His mom used to put his meds in his hand (because a verbal reminder was not enough) and now he doesn't have that support anymore. He forgets to take his meds & starts a downward spiral.

Please don't blame the mother.
I am not blaming the mom

in THIS case the Mom (or dad, or the family unit) did get the CHILD care -- an adult (young or not) is not a child.

an adult wiling indepentdaly is responible for self care.

There is no perfect solution -- turst me i have both been there and worked with the kids .......

but there are things that can make things better -- and good parenting (at home, at work, on vistation weekends....) is one thing that can help.

Care early helps, family support helps, a watchful eye helps.

but

adults, be it 18 or 48 are adults and if they live independantly they must self-care. at that point it is not a parent's responiblity any more.

A

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#18 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 02:48 PM
 
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I've made the choice to be a SAHM because it's best for my children, and I've given up a lot of personal and financial freedoms to do so. I'd like to get support from other SAHMs by affirming our decisions without it having anything to do with working parents.

As to the original topic, I like to think that my parenting is helping my children to grow into strong and productive adults. It's overwhelming to watch the news and worry about how my children will "turn out", but I can tell myself that at least I can be a positive influence in their lives each day. By being a SAHM and spending many hours with them, my influence is bigger than if I were away from them 8-10 hours/day.

Kim - Wife to Liam , Unschooly mama to Nick (10/00) Lily (09/05) and Olivia (07/09)
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#19 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 02:50 PM
 
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I think good parenting will save the world. In my family, that means I get to stay home. In other familes those mamas may need, or even just WANT to work. I do get sick of seeing the threads blaming a pursuit of material possessions on WOHMs. Every family has different priorities for their children and themselves.

In my family, a college education for the kids is essential. That means we have a family goal of putting $250,000 aside for each child in one of our state's tuition programs. It's not even something DH and I talk about anymore. In order for us to feel secure, that money must go there. We are blessed that although DH has to work incredibly long hours to do it, we will.

If DH's job paid less, I'd get myself to work in order to meet that goal. That goal is incredibly important to both of us. Your family may (and should!) have different goals. If a mama wants to/has to work in order to meet those goals, I've got no issue with her whatsoever. And maybe her goal is that her kids are shuttled around town in a car that exceeds NHTSA requirements. Maybe she lost a sibling in a car accident or a myriad of other things that go into our thinking processes. Maybe she only feels "together" if she's wearing the entire line of Mary Kay cosmetics. Who knows??

It matter much less IMO that one or more parents is home than the LOVE that is in the family to begin with.

secular classical-ish mama to an incredible 5 year old DS and an amazing 6 year old DD.
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#20 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I agree 100% that perfect parenting-if it exsists- doesn't automatically produce perfect kids/adults.

I think that how a person views mental illnesses really depends on individual perspective and beliefs. Personally, I sort of lean toward nuture rather than nature, but in like a 51 to 49% kind of way. I think we are all wired differently, but I think that the nuturing -or lack thereof- that we receive is the more powerful force.

I also TOTALLY agree with the transference of responsibility/accountability. When a child is born the parents carry all of it but I think as the child grows they start to hold a larger and larger portion of it until they essentialy are carrying the majority of it. I think that every person has to realize that no matter how much of a victim they were/are, the moment they begin to victimize the rules change and they are a victimizer no longer a victim to receive sympathy.

That said, I have to admit that it is tiresome to see the cycles of abuse/neglect repeated over and over followed by a shocked society when delinquents get cranked out.

How about some balance you know?
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#21 of 121 Old 04-26-2007, 04:29 PM
 
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I think Seung's mother probably was a SAHM in Korea at least when her kids were small (Seung was 8 when the moved) and my guess is back then at least most Korean mothers breastfed.

She tried to get him help through the church but to no avail -- I think they just didn't really realize what mental illness is and what to do about it, and until university he doesn't seem to have been violent.

I think in Columbine the parents were willfully ignorant and ignoring their kids to some extent, but in this case I think it's very different and the problem is more that something was messed up in his mind and no one recognized how much or knew what to do about it. No amount of SAHMing or breastfeeding would make a difference, if the chemical mess up is there anyway later on in life and requires professional mental health intervention.
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#22 of 121 Old 04-28-2007, 08:53 AM
 
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I am returning this thread. I have removed several posts for violating the User Agreement If anyone has any questions about their posts or has any concerns about MDC policies please pm and do not post to the thread.

Before reopening the thread to posting I would like to clarify the SAHMing Forum Guidelines.
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Please stick to specific topics of discussion that apply to your life as a SAHM or future SAHM. Any discussions that are of debate or have demeaning comments about mothers who have other lifestyle choices will be closed and the posters alerted or warned.
It is absolutely fine to state that you feel SAHMing is best, as long as it is not stated in the context of criticizing WAHMs or WOHMs. So, for example if you were to say "I feel staying at home is best" that would be fine. If you said "WOHMs are not putting their children first." that would not be fine. I hope this helps clarify what posting is and is not acceptable. Again if you have any questions or concerns please contact me via pm.

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#23 of 121 Old 04-28-2007, 09:41 AM
 
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I think you are confusing the issue. Good parenting does not prevent mental illness. Cho was unquestionably mentally ill.

Also, please be cautious with statements about working parents. There are many working mothers on this site who are doing an excellent job raising secure, attached, happy children.
very well said!!

"The true joy of life is the trip. The station is only a dream. It constantly out distances us."
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#24 of 121 Old 04-28-2007, 05:54 PM
 
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Cho was seriously mentally ill. My Korean friend says that it's likely that when he lived in Korea, he had a SAHM and was breastfed. His parents were immigrants who weren't wealthy and who were involved with their church. From what I have read they did what they could with what they had. It is very, very hard to cure a mentally ill psychopath.

I would be extremely cautious about making any generalizations about the family environment of serial killers. Serial killers come from a variety of backgrounds. Some have SAHMs, some don't. I mean, Ted Kaczynski, the Green River Killer, and the BTK Killer all had SAHMs and apparently fairly normal childhoods. Other serial killers have the stereotypical troubled childhood, such as Cary Stayner (although if I remember right he did have a SAHM, but a deeply troubled family). Often serial killers have siblings that grew up in the same environment, yet the siblings are well-adjusted. Why does one go so wrong and the other so right? Nobody really knows.

There's a lot we don't know about people who commit heinous crimes, and the urge is to look at whatever is different and say, well, THAT'S where his or her parents went wrong, but the true picture is a lot more complicated than that.
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#25 of 121 Old 04-28-2007, 06:07 PM
 
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There's a lot we don't know about people who commit heinous crimes, and the urge is to look at whatever is different and say, well, THAT'S where his or her parents went wrong, but the true picture is a lot more complicated than that.
Thank you well said.


Just a note, it makes me very uncomfortable that this thread was started and remains in the SAHM forum. What other purpose for starting it here is there, than to bash parents who do not SAH with their children?
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#26 of 121 Old 04-28-2007, 06:07 PM
 
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When it comes to psychopathic killers, I think there's something truly, deeply, and organically wrong. I suppose some behaviors on the parent(s) part(s) might make a difference, but I also can see that it might not make any difference. I definitely don't think it's "the" cause.

For people in general though, I do think that attachment has a great deal to do with how people turn out. I keep thinking as friends look for marriage-able partners and fail that those who are unhappily single were largely CIO, formula-fed, spanked, and raised with a dictatorial parenting style. I and dh, who married young and securely, were not CIOed, were breastfed (though not past 1 year), and dh in particular was raised with a non-dictatorial style. I was raised with spanking and some abusive behaviors, though. And some people obviously overcome dysfunctional families to live normal lives. I think a strong attachment as a child makes it easier for children to bond with friends and lover(s) later in life. I know that some people also choose not to marry, but I do see more friends who were raised harshly who say they want a long-term partner but are seemingly incapable of finding/keeping one.

However, I don't think that really correlates to SAH parenting. You can have a healthy or unhealthy attachment whether you SAH or WAH. You can also not breastfeed and still be connected. I'm not sure you can spank and really have a strong connection, but I guess I'm proof that the connection might be "strong enough."

Happy with my DH, 2 kids, dog, fish, and frogs
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#27 of 121 Old 04-28-2007, 06:12 PM
 
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Jen, former attorney and now SAHM to 11 yo ds and 8 yo ds

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#28 of 121 Old 04-28-2007, 07:32 PM
 
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if we did NOT feel we were having a positive impact would we be making the sacrfices we are to be home????????

Aimee + Scott = Theodore Roosevelt (11/05) and 23 months later Charles Abraham (10/07)....praying for a little sister; the search starts May 2014
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#29 of 121 Old 04-28-2007, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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if we did NOT feel we were having a positive impact would we be making the sacrfices we are to be home????????
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#30 of 121 Old 04-28-2007, 07:46 PM
 
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I stay home because it would cost more than I make for child care, and I enjoy being with my kids, but I would have no problem working if I could.

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

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